Book of Job

iluvmen
iluvmen

Let's discuss the best book of the Bible.

Why didn't Job rebel against God? He made Job suffer for a bet. Was Job just scared of him? Why have fate in something so cruel?

All urls found in this thread:
https://youtu.be/zErzRl0iR2A?t=26m13s
idontknow
idontknow

@iluvmen
Because the lord giveth and he taketh away, so tuff shit, buddy.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@idontknow
why?

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@iluvmen
christians are moschists who don't beileve in justice or civility. Just torture and destruction

SniperGod
SniperGod

why have faith in something so cruel
that's sort of the wrong question.

The devil believes more in God than the most devout christian, because he knows and fears his own torment.

The question is rather of his continued adherence to God's law, his perpetual refusal, not to deny God, but to denounce him.

The philosophy is not whether making Job suffer made god bad, but rather that Job trusted that God's trials were put upon him for good purpose. Job's faith in God transcended his personal experience, and the moral is that we should do the same. Our own suffering is little if you consider the experience of all others, and how in God's plan his word is brought to all through the actions, labors, and trials of his believers.

A long-shot of an argument, but one that could easily be made, is that the suffering of Job was immortalized and is an integral part in the very book that brings salvation to millions. Is that not worth one man's suffering?

As to whether Job was scared of God, yes, I think that was an integral part of the book. Even in his faithfulness Job receives a furious and terrible vision in which pages are spent laying out Job's puniness, insignificance, the scope of the world he lives in, and he is told to recognize his place.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Gigastrength
you don't get to define cruel or evil
Job, along with every other human, is deserving of hellfire.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@RumChicken
To the god of the chistians. Who was nailed to a cross and is dead

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@SniperGod
Is that not worth one man's suffering?
Easy to say from the safety of your room, user. Praise god, though

JunkTop
JunkTop

@eGremlin
pardon? are you talking about Jesus
stop this rhetoric and just make your point

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@SniperGod
He wasn't tortured for salvation. He was tortured for being christian. Just as the greek gods tortured those who worhsipped them

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@JunkTop
humans don't deserve to be destroyed and turned into masochistic torture dummies for the Father and his pagan trinity. Humanity realized this and now God is Dead.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@SniperGod
Job trusted that God's trials were put upon him for good purpose

But how can there be a good purpose when your sons are killed? If those sons were believers too, what's the point?

whereismyname
whereismyname

@StrangeWizard
blatant misrepresentations are a waste of both of our times

Illusionz
Illusionz

@whereismyname
The Father is evil. The trinity is pagan. These are facts as immovable as the mountains and oceans.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@Illusionz
The trinity is pagan.
source
I'll wait

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Supergrass
pagan is opposed to monotheism as it has multiple gods. Christians say that the holy ghost, the father, and the son are God. Hence they occupy the same position as gods.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Dreamworx
so its not a fact, its just your shitty interpretation
you should have said that

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Gods only retort is literally 'dude, were you around when the universe was created? didn't think so faggot, checkmate'.
How do people actually justify this shit.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@New_Cliche
isn't Christianity at its most basic the idea that life is only a temporary state before an eternity with god?

Isn't a central, constantly repeated theme of Job the fact that Man is in no position, no perspective, and no state to criticize the decisions of his god? Where was Job when the ground he was standing on was formed? when the sun and earth and moon were roped together and set into motion? And yet people think they can make demands of him? Think there is a way of life and a duration that they ought to be entitled to? The ways of God are unknowable

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Raving_Cute
you are illiterate. Just end it

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Lunatick
christians are known for being superstitious and have a love for authority figures. Its why they sucked on germanic cock when Rome fell and became slaves to fuedal lords for centuries.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Garbage Can Lid
a personal interpretation =/= a fact
if you wanted to discuss the nature of the trinity, we could have, but going and stating your personal fringe tier understanding of it as fact is just obtuse and/or disingenuous

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@Booteefool
a personal interpretation
you have no understanding of even the most basic of philosophy so just stop posting you illiterate

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@iluvmen
Because the Jews needed a sob story before the holocaust(trademark) came along.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Lord_Tryzalot
and you have no understanding of even the most basic and ancient Christian doctrine
goodnight

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@MPmaster
I actually do. Quote them if you like. Dogma enshirned by some ecumeniocal council or horsehist however. Proven by the fact that those people failed to actually save anyone's souls.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Lunatick
So why in the first place God created Man? For fun? For having a set of soldiers devoted to him in the "afterlife"?

cum2soon
cum2soon

@MPmaster
enshirned
ecumeniocal
horsehist
itstimetostopposting.jpg

w8t4u
w8t4u

https://youtu.be/zErzRl0iR2A?t=26m13s
26:13-35:16

Playboyize
Playboyize

@SomethingNew
everything God does is for his own Glory. If that sounds selfish, get over it, he's God, he defines what is good and evil. Again that's the whole point of the book of job. There is no "higher court" to appeal to if you're angry at God. He is the highest court.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@Playboyize
The leviathan is stronger than The Father so you can appeal to him as people in the past did. Who then killed and ate him to form this world. As sons of sodom

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

thank you and sorry for creating a fedora containment thread, your service has not been overlooked

RavySnake
RavySnake

@SomethingNew
The written cause for the creation of man is to work the earth and make it pleasing to him. This is combined with the fact that were were made "in His image," obviously set apart from life as the earth's inheritors. This purpose of man has changed, as the nature of the world changed when God refused to destroy it when it no longer pleased him.

God was set on destroying humanity for its wickedness but stayed his hand and made a covenant with Noah, promising him and his descendants would be exempt from the destruction. God has kept his covenant and redoubled his covenant with further blameless individuals, forming the chosen people. The other descendants of Noah were not destroyed, but God did not offer his protection like he did his chosen people. Eventually the messiah redoubled his covenant again by extending his protection and grace for eternal life to all descendants of Noah who would accept it and become blameless.

Essentially man exists due to an appeal that our potential would be realized. The world was brought about to please God, but we and it continue to exist due to a deity that saw fit to save one lineage and forgive its constant blasphemy and wickedness.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

Job is popularly discussed due to the dilemma it raises, but another interesting dilemma that interests me is the story of Abraham, in which God uses Abraham's actions as an example for all people.

He orders Abraham to commit the immoral action of killing his son, and while god stays his hand, the point of the story is that Abraham was willing to suspend morality to obey God, and that was seen as worthy of praise.

The idea that, to be righteous, we have to accept what God hands us in life is hardly radical compared to the idea that to be righteous we must actively act against our morals, should God ask it of us. It only raises the example of those psychotic nutcases in the 80 's who claimed that Jesus told them to drown their children.

It really is a radical position to take on ethics and it's not one I find a lot of Christians are aware that comes with their religion. What do you think about it?

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Playboyize
Congratulations, God! You are so cool.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Ignoramus
I believe most people are ignorant. Me also. I think that a true God wouldn't ask to kill your son, even if that would be an act of faith.

girlDog
girlDog

@Need_TLC
I think
you need to stop interpreting things on a basis of
does it make me uncomfortable or confuse? must be false then
put yourself into the context it was intended to be in. even if, God forbid, the Lord said "murder is good" then it would be good simply because God defines what is good and what is evil, not our own hearts. But of course, murder is not good and God's laws all make sense, but we aren't going to be willing to accept a difficult truth if our measure is simply our own comfort

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@Ignoramus
Don't overlook the context of Isaac's birth, which itself is considered miraculous given Sarah's age. I think that reinforces Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac, as Isaac's existence is out of the natural, non-miraculous order of things. Beyond the fundamental parental urges, Abraham could have rationalized God's demand as a way to undo this miracle and approach a return to normalcy.

Not saying it's still not full of ethical issues, but it's harder to make the same justifications without a clearly unusual "miracle" like post-menopausal aged woman giving birth.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@girlDog
I define what is good and what is not.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@iluvmen
First of all you have to understand that the book of Job was allegory, he didn't rebel against God for the same reason Jonah DID rebel against God, because the story is about the strength of your faith being the literal meaning of existence.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@Carnalpleasure
I think that's a poor argument, as "normalcy" is poorly defined and could describe any number of things. Every possible event has never happened before, until it has, and you can find unlikely things in any data set given reason enough to look, so I see little reason why it wouldn't also apply to any unethical scenario you could be ordered by God to undergo.

Furthermore, you discredit your own point by saying the ethical issue still stands.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@PurpleCharger
He wasn't a christian you fucktard, he was a jew.

hairygrape
hairygrape

@DeathDog
I'm not trying to "argue" so much as express my thoughts, as you asked, but the way you're replying seems defensive to me. I was willing to accept your slew of poorly defined terms for the sake of discussion. Not saying you have to reciprocate, but if you want to roll in the mud over semantics, take a moment to notice your own gaping assumptions.

I get the vibe this discussion won't go very far so don't expect a reply from me. Be well.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@iluvmen
Best book of the Bible
In the Old Testament

Is this really what Americans believe ?

Emberburn
Emberburn

@TreeEater
Implying I'm american

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@hairygrape
not defensive, i just characterized your post as a counterpoint, rather than just you expressing your thoughts. I wasn't attacking you, just trying to have a civil debate. If you have no interest in continuing I won't continue either.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Gigastrength
You wouldn't understand.

Inmate
Inmate

@Evil_kitten
you can try, I will listen to you

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Nude_Bikergirl
only
Yeah, man, the ol' bearded grandpa only had that little thing going for him, and that was it.

WebTool
WebTool

@Inmate
But I don't understand either, sorry.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@iluvmen
Jung has the best interpretation of this book and convinced me that everyone else who read this ESPECIALLY the theologians are downright illeterate.

God did NOT make a bet with a devil. The Devil goaded God by preying on God's insecurities. God is deceived by the devil 3 times. After the third time God laments that he has harmed Job without justification. The devil than vanishes after God comes to terms with the fact he is evil; the devil vanishes because the devil represents the repressed feelings of God. And the deity has no realized his own sinful nature.

And Job. Job was in the right. He remained righteous in the face of an evil deity and even called him out on it. Ultimately though it doesn't matter because God is both the criminal and the judge and he isn't going to punish himself (...that is until the cross).

eGremlin
eGremlin

@girlDog
murder is not good
Why?

all of God's laws make sense
So much so that he had to come down and make a new set of laws but also keep the old laws, even though they contradict each other.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Playboyize
God is peak egoism

@BlogWobbles
it's allegorical lmao even though there's no reason to think so but why not
Stop posting

@cum2soon
How did he remain righteous if he was going to kill his son?

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@StrangeWizard
How did he remain righteous if he was going to kill his son?

Are you talking about God here?

Jesus is a part of the God head. The cross is basically God atoning for his own sins. He was originally a deity that was both good and evil. However as he became more righteous he had to shed his evil side and it became a separate deity altogether: the devil.

That's why the Old Testament gives almost no presense to the devil at all. The universe does not need a cosmic manifestation of evil because God himself takes up that role. However he does so largely unconsciously, he is evil the way a child is evil. He simply can't do any better. But unlike a child he has no one to nurture him because he's the highest authority in the world.

It's a very sad story.

happy_sad
happy_sad

Because he was a good sheep just like God wants.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Ignoramus
Obviously I'm talking about Job, since the post I replied to talked about job remaining righteous

dualism
Fuck off

Skullbone
Skullbone

@cum2soon
@Ignoramus
This is very good thanks user.
May I ask where in Jung's works I can find more about it?

Methshot
Methshot

@Inmate
That's the point, stupid. You can't rationalize the bad shit that happens, it just happens whether you're a righteous man like Job or a dumb sack of shit that doesn't get simple religious texts that have been explain the world over and wastes everyone's time on a japanese cartoon image board.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Skullbone
The fittingly named, Answers to Job.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@SniperGod
Is that not worth one man's suffering?

No. Nothing is worth any suffering.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Poker_Star

The world is not worth the dirt it's built on. The body is not worth the shit it produces. Treating all of this as a magnum opus is tremendously insulting to its maker. Maybe that's why God hated Job?

Techpill
Techpill

@cum2soon
So basically God is a whiny bitch that with insecurities that takes it out on everything around him.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@happy_sad
He wasn't even a Jew, fucktard

Illusionz
Illusionz

Is there anything more retarded than the idea of a perfect God who is also somehow petty, jealous, and given to wrath?

Moving beyond Christianity and into a mix of a Platonic, Spinozan, and Berkeleyan ethics plus a scientific view of the universe was the best thing I ever did.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@happy_sad
dude in the bible isn't a christian
literally calls "God" THe Lord the whole time so hes christian

Firespawn
Firespawn

@iluvmen
Amor Fati.
@Carnalpleasure
The Book of Job, along with the Ecclesiastes, is one of the few great books of the Bible. They are also some of its oldest, written centuries before Christianity.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Ignoramus
In certain version of the book of Genesis, Abraham actually kills Isaac. Veeky Forums textual, historical, and higher criticism power level is sorely lacking.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Firespawn
lies told to you by Jesus

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Ignoramus
Just read fear and trembling yo.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@JunkTop
I am not Christian. Jesus never spoke to me.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@GoogleCat
you're quoting him

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Illusionz
what is a berkeleyan ethics?

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Bidwell
I happen to own the only extant copy of the second part of Berkeley's A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, in which he expounded upon how his philosophy concerned ethics. However, I will not divulge the information therein to you.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Carnalpleasure
You really outed yourself as a retard that has no religious knowledge with that post.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Firespawn
Ecclesiastes

The writer of it is a whiny, nihilistic loser who thinks that best course of action in life is to just try and live as long as possible in modest comfort. It's a philosopher for retired grannies.

It's a book that really only makes sense for the Jews who lived at the time because at the time the Jews had no prospects at all. They were conquered, subjugated, and had long lost the will to fight back. It's basically a philosophy designed to keep them alive a few more generations until they can grow a pair of balls again.

Job is equally nihilistic and like Job says that there is no justice in the universe and whether you are virtious or not has no outcome on your succcess.

It's the wisdom of a group of losers, although not nearly a big a loser as Paul and his kin were.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@New_Cliche
The question is not if god is good. The question is more along the lines of how do you deal with hardship. The story of job shows that not everyone is going to make it, that there will be pain and suffering, in spite of that there is still a good to aim for, it's about fighting off nihilistic urges in the face of tragedy. Which is a useful lesson because it teaches people to keep going and struggling instead of just ending all their suffering in suicide.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Burnblaze
Seems like a great lesson for a unic.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@LuckyDusty
I think it's a good lesson that is in almost every culture. The story of Job is hardly singular to the old testament.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@happy_sad
Do you just shit talk do you actually have something to say?

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@JunkTop
A much better lesson is to embrace suffering and love it like it's your mother.

Christians and Jews have a serious problem with evil and suffering while the superior cultures worshiped the concepts.

Who do you think is going to succeed more? The guy that merely tolerates pain or the guy that's loves the stuff.

girlDog
girlDog

@Burnblaze

Keep going and struggling for what?

RavySnake
RavySnake

@Methshot
That's dumb

Booteefool
Booteefool

@girlDog
For the hope of building the kingdom of heaven here to earth.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Lord_Tryzalot
superior cultures

Such as?

idontknow
idontknow

@Booteefool

Is there any way of knowing how far along that is?

Nojokur
Nojokur

@Soft_member
It's a staple part of any martial culture. The Aztecs did it, so did the Greeks, Romans, and certain aspects of Hinduism (Kali being the most promenient deity that represents it).

And it's a type of thinking that also popped up in the martial cultures of Wester europe even when they were Christianized. The myths of Roland and the paladins, the Authorian Legends, and every aspect of Chivalry has none of those meek feelings about tolerating pain but out right death and danger seeking. A lot of it was from an infusion of Pagan mythos.

So even the supposedly Christian cultures really didn't follow through with that grandmother philosophy of Job and Ecclesiastics in a lot of places.

The Christians and Jews that DID believe that stuff, mostly the early Christians and the Jews under Pagan conqueres, were the one's that had their faces stepped on by the superior cultures.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Soft_member
Here let me dumb it down simplier.

Do any successful atheletes take the attitude of 'tolerating pain'? Don't they have all sorts of mottos about enjoying it? Has any great military marched with the motto of 'just trying to get through it'

No they havn't. It's the philosopher of losers. The Jews that wrote Job and Ecclestias were losers that got conquered and were trying to keep themself from feeling too bad about it. It's basically saying "There is nothing we can do, let's try and make the best of it" while their temples are being destroyed, their children enslaved, their women raped, and their dignity destroyed.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@iluvmen
Let's imagine three possible world's.
A) a world with no suffering
B) a world with some suffering
C) a world with only suffering

If you think critically about what worlds A and C entail, you ought to eventually realize suffering is necessary and that B is the best world for us to live in.

"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us."
Romans 5:3-5

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Boy_vs_Girl
Paul sounds like such a loser here. His big pay off for suffering is hope? Basically the last shrewd of will power left to keep him from committing suicide.

Emberburn
Emberburn

hmmm

idontknow
idontknow

@Ignoramus
Drink the kool-aid

Methshot
Methshot

@BunnyJinx
I've read it and other kierkegaard, I was just interested in the arguments/rationalizations of other posters regarding it.

@Garbage Can Lid
What a terribly sad thing to actually believe

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Methshot

Why is it sad?

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Sharpcharm
literally calls "God" The Lord the whole time so hes christian
Good to know that Mohammed and Satan are both Christians.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@iluvmen
Faith is beyond reason. He should have revolted, everything sensible told him to rebel. Anyone would have revolted.

Job shows that God gives some people faith and other's he doesn't -- i.e. God chooses winners and losers, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@Sharpcharm
Did you even read the bible? Job is OT for fucks sake.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@CodeBuns

This keeps getting worse.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@CodeBuns
@Booteefool

Guy: God sounds bad.

Christian: God IS bad!

cum2soon
cum2soon

You can't criticize me! I and the world around you are too incomprehensable for you to even begin to understand let alone criticize!
Was Job the first Lovecraftian book?

Evilember
Evilember

@iluvmen
Read Fear and Trembling by Kierkegaard for a nice answer to this. Although it's regarding Abraham, the suspension of the teleological in order to perform the highest good, paradoxically defined by the eternal, but necessarily outside of it is explained quite well in there. Not sure if this perfectly fits on the book of Job though

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@Evilember

The highest good having to be performed or the promise thereof means the "God" performing it is not the highest good and therefore no God.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Spamalot
yes. Kierkegaard wrote about this at length. Everyone should not be Christian. Very few people can really handle it. Christians throughout history have water-ed down the religion for the sake of collecting more converts, as if it were a video game and the top score won.

It's not. In the end, if true christians end up being a very small number of people -- all the better.

TechHater
TechHater

@Boy_vs_Girl
What do a and c entail?

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Soft_member
hes talking about the retard bandit religion if islam just because it indulges itself in subjective, ever changing doctrines of violence. this guy has probably never even read the bible. a pseud on Veeky Forums? who fuckin knew

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@StonedTime

There is no way to tell if this is arguing for or against Christianity.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@JunkTop
u r stupid.

WebTool
WebTool

@StonedTime
What's interesting about this approach is that the concept of hell must be discarded, as Kirkeegaard did.

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