Epistemology

Methshot
Methshot

I'm taking a philosophy class and had to read "White Ignorance" by Charles Mills, where he says people who are apart of disadvantaged classes have greater knowledge of the world. For example, black people have more knowledge on how the world actually is because white people are blind to their own advantages.

I'm apart of one of the panels in my class about what the "necessary and sufficient conditions for knowledge" are, and this is sure to come up, along with stuff like Descartes and Hume. Thoughts?

All urls found in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyqGdQEvTHI
Emberfire
Emberfire

@Methshot
If anything, marginalization renders people incapable of the kind of dispassionate engagement and appraisal necessary to achieve knowledge. Notice how all the black academics you've ever met work on race while all the white academics you've ever met are seriously devoted to discovering the truth of various matters totally disconnected to their sociopolitical situation.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@Methshot
do the world a favor and shoot up the class

TechHater
TechHater

@Methshot
Epistemic advantage is such a stupid concept. To assert that an 80 IQ nigger in South Central has a greater knowledge of the world than whitey because he's oppressed is ridiculous. Try to get a balck man to articulate why he's oppressed and he will just utter shit like

"Yuh lissen, dat shit is sytemic dawg."

That type of thinking has nothing to do with their supposed epistemic advantage, it has everything to do with indoctrination by academia.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

That's clearly a fallacious way of thinking. Even granting them the privilege argument, that only means blacks know more about that specific aspect of life than whites do. "Knowledge of the world" goes beyond "dey have dis, but i only have dis".

You could just as easily say whites have greater knowledge of the world because blacks don't know what it's like to have a peaceful domestic environment tainted by an incessantly violent underclass with a chip on their shoulder.

massdebater
massdebater

@Methshot
Having grown up poor I have to disagree. The disadvantaged lead the most narrow lives imaginable. They know only how to survive in their particular environment. They don't have the time or motivation to learn about the world. To spend time reading history books is absurd to the disadvantaged. It's viewed as an impractical waste of time. Every aspect of their existence is limited.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@SniperGod
Damn right

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Methshot
truth
totally disconnected to their sociopolitical situation.

Techpill
Techpill

@Methshot
If the disadvantaged are so worldly why don't they ever summer abroad? How can you have worldly knowledge when you're born and die in the same corner of nowhere?

What's more, why then do they seek upward mobility? They're too intelligent to be poor?

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Techpill

How can you have worldly knowledge when you're born and die in the same corner of nowhere?

I'm not saying that the disadvantaged have an epistemic advantage, but your point is retarded. Some of the greatest intellectuals lived and died in the same corner of nowhere. Socrates for instance. Travel as a means of gaining experience and self-actualization is a new age meme.

FastChef
FastChef

@StonedTime
being this utterly fucking stupid
By definition, truth observed many times in many places with many variations is more true. What is true in Athens may not be true in Mongolia. And therefore isn't true at all.

It's the definition of the word worldly, you philistine.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@FastChef
and the premise for all human knowledge ever, the meaning of science and the very weight of experience

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@StonedTime
Socrates for instance.
he fought in the army and talked to everybody regardless of social standing, he was exactly the opposite of an echochamber-bred ghetto dweller lmfao

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@StonedTime
using Socrates as your example
the guy who said he wasn't a citizen of Athens but a citizen of the world
want to know how I know you're retarded?

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@Techpill
@FastChef
If the disadvantaged are so worldly why don't they ever summer abroad?
you're not the sharpest cheese in the drawer, are you friend?

Bidwell
Bidwell

@FastChef

There is only one truth and it's the same everywhere you disgusting philistine. When you travel you see the same inanities and the same stupidities everywhere. If you think that the act of moving from one location to another makes you a better person then you're beyond retarded.

@Raving_Cute

That was a general philosophic position, not a literal statement. He never left Greece.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

On one hand, life in the ghetto could be said to impede the pursuit of knowledge, for example, the kind of knowledge that would get people to successfully rebel against their oppression.

On the other hand, life in the ghetto is the greatest educational program ever devised, the disadvantaged classes really aren't at a disadvantage, your average poor black guy knows best, for only he is woke while whitey is blind.

The choice should be clear by now: spread the idea that whites be fools, and that:
Ackchually, sweetheart, the supposed lack of privilege of blacks really was a privilege all along, only they know How The Real World Really Works, whereas I don't, I never could
so that the black guy doesn't ever find the means to improve his outlook, and his role models remain men wearing women's winter clothing, and at the same time you have this ideology of a "White Ignorance" to sow distrust towards genuinely helpful whites who only seek to teach them and do good things.

Remember kids: the problem can never be translated into a language white people speak, and this whole 'race' thing the nazis came up with, and these fictional ethnoanthropological categories, should be taken seriously and taught in epistemology classes. Like, totally.

This is what your teachers are doing, you're welcome.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Emberfire
Most of my this
Too bad for OP that they will stone him to death before finishing reading out that sentence aloud to his class

likme
likme

By this logic you should take financial advice from homeless crack whores, because they understand how the investment markets work better than a qualified broker

TechHater
TechHater

@likme
knowledge of the world != how the investment markets work

homeless crack whores != disadvantaged classes

Come back when you're over 13

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Methshot
Can anything be more trite and banal than oppresser/oppressed frameworks?

Life ain't fair soibois. How bout you own up to your personal failings instead of blaming others for your weakness and inability to overcome them?

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@likme

Taleb says somewhere you could probably learn more from people that lost millions than from those who gained millions.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@StrangeWizard
Taleb says
Nothing that comes after this contains anything of value ever.

Spamalot
Spamalot

Is it also possible that being oppressed distorts the perception of the world around them? I can't really see why it doesn't. While there is something to be said about position influencing learning, i would think it would go both ways. That sort of mistake seems to be the logical result of making "oppression" the central form of human relations.
@Emberfire
Notice how all the black academics you've ever met work on race while all the white academics you've ever met are seriously devoted to discovering the truth of various matters totally disconnected to their sociopolitical situation
The only black academic I know is a mathematician.

5mileys
5mileys

@Spamalot
The only black academic I know is a mathematician.
And he's probably computing cohomologies of evil whitey as we speak.

askme
askme

Having different experiences means you have different conceptions of the world
Woah, mindblowing. Is this the power of american philosophy?

Methshot
Methshot

@5mileys
fuck off

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@TechHater
knowledge of the world != how the investment markets work
Investment markets are part of the world.
homeless crack whores != disadvantaged classes
Difficult to think of more disadvantaged group. Your mom always looks to be having a terrible time.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Methshot
black people have more knowledge on how the world actually is because white people are blind to their own advantages.
And black women would have more knowledge of the world than black men. And black lesbians more than black straight women. And black trans lesbians more than black cis lesbians. Perhaps Godfrey Elfwick should be in charge.

King_Martha
King_Martha

@Methshot
The only black academic I know
It's you, isn't it, dindu? What's the research topic? Watermelon homotopies? SHIEEET functors?

farquit
farquit

I've noticed something similar with children of rich people - they are weak and soft. They have no clue how the 'real' world works and only grow up in their 20s to 30s, if ever. As long as they can stay in the bubble of their parents' money they do not mature. What's worse is that they don't realise they're in a bubble, they think they got to where they are by themselves.

Poor people, on the other hand, very early have to understand how credit card works, how the government works in respect to them, how unemployment systems work, and since their parents work many menial jobs, they have to grow up and look after themselves and their siblings much earlier.

I don't think it has to do with skin color as other anons post here, more with class (yet in the US, those are linked)

Inmate
Inmate

@Methshot
For example, black people have more knowledge on how the world actually is because white people are blind to their own advantages.
I think it's insanely hyperbolic to say black people in general simply have more knowledge of the world simply based on that, but there are things disadvantaged people will have a much easier time understanding than others. I do agree with the idea of affirmative action being something epistemic importance rather than simply being a matter of fairness etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyqGdQEvTHI

@Emberfire
I love how you're completely blind to the fact that you're a prime example of what the reading is getting at. The reason why you only know black academics that work in race and nowhere else is because you don't actually know enough academics and are only shown the white ones. Have fun with your anecdotes user.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@farquit
very early have to understand how credit card works, how the government works in respect to them,
This is not true. Most poor people are fucking clueless when it comes to finance and have no idea how the government works. The average middle class kid has a much better understanding of interest rates, down payments etc. Poor people will spend $500 on a shitty tv because they don't understand 20 bucks a month for two years is actually more money than buying the tv outright.
It's a stupidity thing. If they understood money they would be less likely to be poor. It's difficult to be clever and poor for long.

Methshot
Methshot

anon makes a post about people relying on largely fictitious anecdotes
the very next post is a fictitious anecdote

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Poker_Star
I don't have any
this is bait
images so (You)'ll have to make do with this.

Evilember
Evilember

@Methshot
@Emberfire
All of these arguments seem to revolve around the ideas that there's a particular and objective "way" that the world "is" and that people of one or another ethnic group have some sort of special insight into it that others are blind to instead of realising that it's different for everyone and everything.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@King_Martha
No, I'm a white loser, any your use of 2014 memes leads me to believe that you're mathematically literate.
@Sharpcharm
He's not wrong. It's not uncommon for the poor to be taken advantage of due to their lack of financial knowledge.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@SniperGod
I suppose it's not like richer people spend stupid amounts of money on things that could be had for much cheaper in a less fancy restaurant or anything.
The example of the television is a particularly idiotic one; it's not that someone is so stupid they can't work out that thirty payments of twenty dollars is more than a one time payment of five hundred dollars, it's that they're living hand-to-mouth and simply don't have five hundred dollars laying around to spend in one go. Buying it on credit is the only option.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Evilember
I'm not either of the people you're quoting, but I think it's a epistemic supply and demand thing. Obviously black people don't have third eyes in the middle of their head that let them see a more-real world, but people who are different are going to see things differently, and disadvantaged people's eyes are utilized by academia the least, and therefore have the most unique content to potentially offer. Black and white might not be the best distinction to worry about; there's rich and poor, male and female, etc, but it's all the same general idea.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@BlogWobbles
It's still not the case that either or any group has a more "realistic" understanding of how the world is. They know their own worlds, they know about things relevant to their own experiences.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@StonedTime
Right, sure, both equally realistic, but clearly not identical. Tell me, if you're trying to figure out what the real image actually is, do you want a dozen copies of a generic white male perspective, or do you want as many angles as possible? Even if the black/female/poor perspective is downright worse and more shortsighted than the white male one, it's going to hold more value than the addition of another white male as long as it catches just a couple things another redundant white male perspective wouldn't

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@TurtleCat
It's not stupid if you can afford it.
They could save up for the television and have it much cheaper. That would require financial acumen and a willingness for deferred gratification, both of which poor people tend to lack. It's one reason why they're poor. Someone smart enough to save up for things rather than buying them right away on a ruinous credit deal will not stay poor for as long.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@JunkTop
So is the earth a globe or is it flat? Are all perspectives equally valuable here?

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@TurtleCat
I suppose it's not like richer people spend stupid amounts of money on things that could be had for much cheaper in a less fancy restaurant or anything.
They're probably very much aware of that, and just prefer to eat at the fancy one. They're not being exploited due to their lack of knowledge about the alternatives.
Do you not remember that predatory lending was one of the major causes of the most recent financial crisis? Real knowledge of finance comes from formal education, and the poor often times lack access to someone with that knowledge, let alone the knowledge itself.

I do agree with you on the TV example being dumb.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@GoogleCat
It's at least worth knowing that people think it's flat. I'm talking about perception as phenomena, not actual credibility. If half the world had a visual apparatus so completely different that even from space they saw the world as flat, that would probably be worth knowing.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Methshot
problem is this is the mainstream view

askme
askme

@Stupidasole
Sure. A lot of people on this very site believe crazy stuff about the Jews. I like to take their perspective on board.
To quote spinal tap, you can sometime have a bit too much fucking perspective.
Also it's asinine to believe someone will think differently based on their gender or skin color. There is no generic white male perspective, every white male (and every other person) is a unique individual. Essentialism is bunk

Methshot
Methshot

@askme
To quote spinal tap, you can sometime have a bit too much fucking perspective.
And I don't disagree, but there's also such a thing as too little.

Also it's asinine to believe someone will think differently based on their gender or skin color.
It's really not. If we can at the very least say that people are treated differently based upon their skin color etc, then they're going to have grown into very different people. People raised in environments similar to yours are going to be less different from you than people raised in environments different from yours.

girlDog
girlDog

@Methshot
we can at the very least say that people are treated differently based upon their skin color etc, then they're going to have grown into very different people.
This goes for everybody though. Everybody is treated differently, even identical twins. We are all very different people.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@girlDog
Not equally differently user. You can't seriously believe you have as little in common with your twin brother as you do with someone born on the opposite side of the earth, right? It's not a boolean same/not-same scale, there's gradation here.

askme
askme

@Methshot
Objective interests do exist and collectively classes do more or less become conscious of them but not every class can come to accept the reality with what they're faced with. The lumpenproletariat can of course never be expected to achieve any real level of collective consciousness since they have notting to offer, they only exist as a necessary dark appendage of capitalism and if it were to cease to exist they would be annihilated as no post-capitalist society would accept them.

@Poker_Star
The thing is the "reality" here is the construction of these understandings; if they became fully conscious of the structural nature it no longer is going to be the same. Society isn't like other objects you can study in natural sciences, you can't approach it in a reductionist fashion and expect to understand its dynamics, the atoms got free will, you got to approach it differently.
If everyone understands "how the government works" (a game played by the rules of a set of shared values constrained within the boundaries agreed upon by a handful of key presidential cabinet members/close advisers, major corporate owners/directors and high-ranking military officers, etc) and understands "how interest rates work" (opposed to the degenerate monetarist view there really is no "natural" rate of interest, interest is of a secondary concern and has to be approached as a corollary of profit as the real key politico-economic category) it will cease to stand as such.

WebTool
WebTool

@JunkTop
Tell me, if you're trying to figure out what the real image actually is
There is no real image. How are you still failing to get this?

DeathDog
DeathDog

@SniperGod
niggers' love for watermelon is a 2014 ""meme""
You have to be over 18 to post here.

idontknow
idontknow

@DeathDog
I wasn't referring to the watermelon thing.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@massdebater
The disadvantaged lead the most narrow lives imaginable.

This. Most of them are petrified of getting out of their comfort zone. They only socialize with family or childhood friends, avoid anywhere 'fancy' and their biggest barrier is often their shitty narrow-minded and self-defeating attitude.
Even the smart ones avoid challenging themselves.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Garbage Can Lid
Investment markets are part of the world.
no they not

movin crack be how the world is nigga

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Spamalot
everyone tries to be successful
while denying that success is desirable
fucking post modernism, what has it done

Flameblow
Flameblow

This doesn't really have much to do with epistemology, imo (or at the very least, is so far removed from meaningful interpretation of knowledge that it becomes an issue of language and semantics over truth).

Read Popper or Ayer or Sosa instead. Look into verification and provability.

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