Cryptocurrency is immune to financial crises. How does it feel to be an equity/fiat cuck?

>What the hell is the value of crypto currency that gives it such high prices?

What the hell is the value of fiat currency that gives it such high value?

It's literally just ink on paper, and the FED is constantly printing an endless supply of it...

Bitcoins are at least limited in supply, so you know they wont go into hyperinflation like the USD is about to.

crypto currencies is an attempt to provide a purely information based form of exchange, one that lacks any actual physical backing of a government entity in reality. While this makes the currency inherently worthless, short sighted "visionaries" believe a "de-centralized" currency is valuable.

The only thing that makes currency valuable is that it is backed and enforced by the state. Without that backing it might as well be monopoly money.

Bitcoin is just fancy monopoly money that's dressed up pretty with security measures like the block chain but all of that security is meaningless because the group behind bitcoin is non-existant.

If someone gets into debt with you in a transaction using bitcoin and they can't pay, the government is not going to step in a force that person to pay you with their assets

In order for bitcoin to have value it has to be backed by a government or other military based organized power. And once it is it will become another fiat currency.

Dear god... you realise Veeky Forums has IDs right... and we can all see that you are replying to yourself.

You're a moron.

>What the hell is the value of fiat currency that gives it such high value?

Allow me to educate you on the philosophy of money.

If you had ever opened a text book on money (they exist) you would learn that the only thing that gives them value is that they are enforced and endorsed by the state, who has a monopoly on violence.

If you cannot pay your mortgage, the state will violently force you out of your house into destitution. If you cannot pay for your food at a restaurant, the police will violently arrest you.

Anyone who cannot settle their debts will be violently forced to forfeit their assets or be imprisoned

That is the value of fiat currency, the ONLY currency with any value.

If someone decides they simply won't pay you and the deal was made in bitcoin, then you just lost your money, the state will not help you.

Educate yourself

no, actually you are a moron and so is everyone who uses bitcoin in their transactions.

But you are unwittingly doing something smart, you are taking advantage of other peoples ignorance on the nature of bitcoins worthlessness to make money for yourself, though you aren't aware of it.

because only money backed up by violent groups has any value then only money backed by the government (the dominant violent group) has value.

because only the money tied to the government has value that means that the actions of the government directly decides the value of it's currency. of course fiat currency loses value to inflation, but that can be curtailed with certain economic tools to increase production and limit the money supply

Bit coins governance is greed and stupidity, which explains that insane valuation and bubble it's in.

What I'm saying is that bitcoin has an arbitrarily high value set by "tech savy" nerds in a hug box who have tricked some "forward thinking" business people into believing their monopoly money has value when it does not.

But good on you for scamming untold amounts of idiots out of untold amounts of dollars.

utilizing "state of the art" technology to stupefy people is a powerful technique and scam

Of course I will completely change my tune on bit coin if the government comes forward and officially states it will back and enforce transactions made with bitcoin

until then it's worthless information like monopoly money.

Howdy Partner, Ah' say buy sum ol' fashioned yellow tin Y'all, there's an old saying in the South: "Gold is God's money"
God Bless Texas and the Confederation! YEEEEE HAWWWW!

>pm

What is that?

precious metals presumably, partner

but you're free to open your own btc collections agency, insurance company or whatever you want for an unregulated token. one that is or is not btc specifically. they're not considered currencies (cryptos) so almost anything goes.

Dude. It will get to that point. You will be able to sue someone for stealing your bitcoin. Of course if you send your bitcoin to someone in Somalia and get scammed, you're out of luck just like if you had sent USD.

STOP FUCKING POSTING IN THIS THREAD. READ A FUCKING BOOK AND DRINK SOME COFFEE MANG. GO OUTSIDE. FUCK.

>educate yourself

Your opinion= into the trash it goes

wow.. so many salty nocoiners here. I actually use bitcoin to buy things and use it for its intended purpose. To me, it has value because of the utility it provides.

No state needs to enforce value on a currency.. Its the will of the people that allows BTC to have value

>gold
You can't buy drugs online via gold

you can open up a collections agency but you have no legal recourse if the person decides not to pay.

And as an individual with bitcoin, there is no way to defend yourself from thousands of fraud bitcoin collection agencies because once again you have no legal recourse and there is no government regulation or oversight

Bitcoin is
W.O.R.T.H.L.E.S.S

it's high price is an arbitrary and artificial number set by tech nerds in a hug box. it has literally ZERO market value because it is NOT secure because it is not backed by a militarized legal entity

military might>the will of the people

The will of the people is not going to legitimize your transactions or make sure someone in debt to you will pay up in full.

If you lend someone bitcoin for a business start up and they fail, they are under no legal obligation to reimburse you with assets from that company, not legally anyway.

as money bitcoin is worthless

once again it only trades for such high prices because those prices were set by a small group of cult like nerds, it has no ties whatsoever to anything of any real value.

WHAT VALUE does bitcoin provide?

NONE

You are making gold out of lead, actually, you are making gold out of air

crypto currencies are worthless

the usd dollar is making money out of paper or trees. so what? it's no longer backed by gold or any other tangible item. just borrowed by our government from the federal reserve. loaned to us in a lot of ways that keep the citizens in debt.

the value is being your own bank and transfer mechanism in a safe and secure accountable, relatively quick way.

now with lisk and ethereum, you can do a lot more than just verify the transactions but these sidechain and on-chain dapps are the future. and you'll need something like btcrelay to be a middle man if you wanna stick with bitcoin or maybe even us dollars if you like those fees, regulations and want to play in that system.

>Dude. It will get to that point. You will be able to sue someone for stealing your bitcoin.

If I know anything about the government, I know that it is a entity intensely jealous of power and covets ever more power.

You see, if you are not the most powerful entity, you cannot be the state.
There is no way the state will allow a competing currency to exist legally within their own borders, sort of like how america does not allow middle eastern oil to be traded for in anything but US dollars.
Bitcoin exists now because it poses no existential threat to the states power, that will change when people demand legal protection for their bitcoin transactions and debts.

When that court case arrives where the decision will be made whether or not bitcoin is enforced and backed legally by the courts and the state, you are going to get a resounding NO

>the usd dollar is making money out of paper or trees. so what?

excuse my language, but this shows your ignorance about money. The current amount of money that is put into our economy is mean t to reflect GDP. They could easily put more money in the economy but they do not because they are calculating the tangible physical goods and services produced and creating just enough money to reflect that at stable prices.

The Money is not being created out of thin air, it is directly tied to real world production and growth.

>the value is being your own bank and transfer mechanism in a safe and secure accountable, relatively quick way.

There is no value to being your own bank and it is not safe or secure if you cannot physically and legally enforce your claims on peoples debt or the legitimacy of your own transactions.

The bank is powerful only because the sate has agreed to run you out of your home if you cannot pay your mortgage, without that the bank is powerless and you could just sit in your home forever. It all stems from the fact that private property cannot exist without the state, you alone do not have the skills or resources to defend your property from thieves and raiders. It is a testament to the states greatness that you scoff at the idea of people raiding your property for your assets.

With bitcoin there is literally nothing stopping me from stealing from you, why? because as soon as you call the cops on me they are going to say "sorry, but we don't arrest people for taking monopoly money"

in fact if bitcoin ever became a serious enough currency to destabilize the economy, the state would enact measures to shut them down.

The true currency of the realm has always been physical might and violence, real money is representative and backed by that power

also the fact that our money is lent out as debt by banks only serves to make it MORE valuable because the forced austerity and poverty FORCES the public at large to constantly be working and producing more to provide for themselves.

once the precedent is set in some court case that bitcoin is backed as a state recognized legally currency subject to physical enforcement, then it will have value.

But as soon as that happens it's value will drop significantly.

Bitcoins insane evaluation only comes from the fact that they are playing in a hugbox and not subject to the larger community.

Store owners and anyone else who trades in bitcoins are doing themselves a disservice.

But as long as their are people dumb enough to be scammed by bitcoin, by all means, make as much money as you can.

Honestly bitcoins biggest value right now is to criminals laundering money

>cryptocurrency is destined to fail
>says increasingly nervous no coiner for the 300000000th time since 2009

It already has failed, there is nothing stopping someone form writing a program that steals peoples bitcoins and even writes the transaction up in the block chain to rub it in your face, why?

because it is not LEGAL currency and not subject to legal ENFORCEMENT

Honestly I would love to open a business and seek all bitcoin investors, I'd get my money, launder it over a kraken, and then tell my investors to call their lawyer

Good luck convincing the state to back a currency that's not theirs.

Amazing it's like you're just smart enough to understand the role of money but somehow slightly too dumb to understand why none of the stuff you said matters and Bitcoin demonstrates its value day in and day out without the need for approval by a central authority

Hahahahah. Gr8 b8 m8. I know you know that this is not how Merckle trees work, not how blockchains work, not how cryptography works. Nice.

>somehow slightly too dumb to understand why none of the stuff you said matters

why does none of what I say matter?
enlighten me.

I can only think it doesn't matter because the state hasn't come along to shut you down yet and there are tons of stupid people out there who think there numbers on the screen are worth money. the difference between numbers on a screen and money being legal backing by the state.

bitcoins value is it's ability to hoodwink the naive.
That, and it's great for making illegal transactions and laundering money

There's no way this isn't bait. Nobody is this stupid.

honestly none of the so called security of how bitcoin works matters at all because it has no real world PHYSICAL security.

your bitcoins, aside from being able to fool others into paying you usd, are worthless

>bitcoins value is it's ability to hoodwink the naive.
Hoodwinking? People willingly pay more for it, and not only does this not show value, they are hoodwinked? By whom? Themselves?

>That, and it's great for making illegal transactions and laundering money
It sure is.

>immune to financial crises
>has hacking related crises 3x as often instead

Your logic is flawless OP.

>honestly none of the so called security of how bitcoin works matters at all because it has no real world PHYSICAL security
But it does? You very, very clearly are not trolling (I was wrong) and you very, very clearly do not understand crypocurrency. That's okay, you can be dumb and say whatever you want. It just makes you really wrong.

>your bitcoins, aside from being able to fool others into paying you usd, are worthless
Anything is worthless unless you can exchange it for something else... So you are admitting then that this currency is not at all worthless, being able to exchange it for USD and other fiat... Ignoring the merchants that accept it, even, by your own definition, it has value.

This is a valid point, though that ETH/DAO shit was REALLY bad, totally inarguably a weakness, it is not really that common. It sure has never happened for BTC. I'm not pro-crypto, I'm pro BTC. It really is wonderful.

people willing pay for all kinds of scams, that's the point, to get them to pay willingly rather than just outright rob them, the goal being that no one knows they have gotten scammed until it's too late.

they are hoodwinked by the entire bitcoin meme

and the fact that it's only valuable for illegal transactions means either the state will keep it on as a "see no evil" currency so it can track illegal transactions or they are going to shut it down entirely, either way you are NEVER going to get LEGAL backing.

No one has offered one bit of counter argument to what I said because they can't, they instead of resulted in saying "no way that's dumb". Simply saying something is "dumb" does not make you smart or correct.

For example, if I had said, bitcoin is dumb, you would say "no you're dumb" much like you are doing now.

I can see how bitcoin has gained such an insane evaluation with traders like you acting as it's life blood.

>But it does?

citation needed, when has a bitcoin based financial dispute been resolved with legal physical enforcement? I'm sure it gets subject to CRIMINAL enforcement every once and awhile, but I don't do business with criminals.

MY standard of argument is citing sources and proving logic rather than repeating, "You are wrong" so many times that you believe it.

I'm saying it's value comes form the ignorance and stupidity of the people using it,, rather than from the legitimate and real physical might of the state.

IT's ONLY value, is that you can trade worthless bitcoins for valuable USD

>all these scared investors buying nothing
dot com bubble 2: bit harder?

It's happened to bitcoin several times.

the great thing about legally backed currency is that it doesn't even matter if you get hacked because the state can just say "oops, well that didn't happen" This happens all the time with banks, they get hacked and get their money "stolen" and then they just say oh well guess that never happened, and just write the amount back into their ledger while the fbi goes and chases the crooks down.

When you are the most powerful military presence in the land you can do literally anything you want that doesn't incite rebellion or lose you the loyalty of your soldiers.

And because americans are wipe-my-face-in-shit stupid, the state can get away with pretty much anything

that's the reality of power dynamics

user that's not how banks work.

The rest of your rant is also very inaccurate in every respect. Seeing how many posts you have in this thread maybe you should go read and actual book instead of the mostly garbage shit here.

What coin would he buy lads?

>immune to financial crisis
you were a gold-standard-tard before discovering cryptocurrency, weren't you?

>he doesn't that banks get hacked and lose major money all the time and just cover it up.
>he doesn't know that last year a billion dollars was stolen from a bank in a hack and the banks just replaced the money by typing numbers into their screen and not reporting it.

oh to be naive again

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-10/hackers-accused-by-u-s-of-targeting-top-banks-mutual-funds

All money is inherently fake and worthless, the only thing that gives it value is that it's enforced by the dominant military power in the land

>opinion
why are you denying reality?

have you tried robbing a bank with a gun in your hand? what, do you think, would happen to you if you did?
the state is there to defend private property through force. you'd end up with some holes in your body.

no, he was responding to my statement that, do to the inherently fictitious nature of money, if a bank gets hacked and it's funds stolen electronically, they can simply write in the amount they lost crack into their ledger and have the cops track down the hackers.

electronic currency is essentially just numbers on a screen with some security mechanisms whose knowledge of how they work kept a close guarded secret.

>crack into their ledger

BACK into their ledge

auto correct spazzed out

I know you're trolling but you probably should Google about how currencies work.

a bank's ledger only points back as far as to when they got it. the advancement even in that one single point is that bitcoin's ledger is traceable all the way back.

money is just suppose to be a lightweight representative of trade power but it turned into being used as a tool against the populous to turn the world into debt slaves and just be in charge of collecting all the debt you cause.

plebs don't even know how money works.

money is representative of the states power. The banks can write whatever they want in their books as long as the state approves of it. The state is okay with or at least hasn't punished anyone writing more money into their books if it gets stolen via a hack

user - I understand that you feel more "enlightened" than others. Hence why you posted so many times on a single topic.

But user - here's the reality.

Total market worth of Bitcoin : Over $10 BILLION.

Bitcoin's value is there.

Deny it all you want.

Millions of people/and companies have invested so much fiat money in to Bitcoin that it inherently has worth (thanks to the fiat being exchanged and backing the Bitcoin).

It doesn't matter how much you preach like god. You can not deny the number.

Now stop being a cuck - and buy low sell high.

You want to bash so many people for being "soo stupid to invest in worthless currency" then play with the market too.

Make MILLIONS over the suffering of BILLIONS. It's how MONEY works.

Go back through history and Money always has the same result.

The rich get richer - the poor get poorer.

Now shut up - and get rich off the poor

Anybody got any good beginner books for people looking to trade cryptocurrency?

You are an uneducated, indoctrinated fool. Currency is a good just like any other, governed by offer and demand. When many people ask for a currency and choose to trade other goods with it, its value rises. The reasons why there is a state monopoly on the emission of a particular currency are practical and have to do with organizing society rather than anything else. A currency does not have value because the state emits it, otherwise no other good would have any value if the state didn't emit it. The printing of money always takes into account demand and offer, it's not done just for the sake of it.
You are just a lolbertarian crying about"muh gubmint", you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

bitcoin's only real advantage over ethereum was being first mover in the space. ethereum was what was made to improve on blockchain technology that bitcoin popularized. sure more people accept it right now because it's been around a lot longer, but that shouldn't always be enough years to outrun the difference the ethereum technology should make.

>otherwise no other good would have any value if the state didn't emit it.

>what is communism

I'm done

You people are morons who understand nothing about society or power dynamics and it's foundation of economies

The number means nothing

All it means is that there are 10 BILLION dollars worth of suckers who think bitcoin is worth something when it isn't

The day is fast approaching when bit coin will be traded for nothing because the state has allowed this rouge currency.

It's not rouge. It's blush.

Anyways, your arguments are very good. Do you like punk music?

Anyways, all I can say is I'm excited to see how this all pans out.

>what is communism
except none of us lives in the URSS? lmao you are retarded. In capitalism the central bank emits as much money as it is needed according to demand and offer. In communism the state decided the demand and the offer. Completely different scenario. I hope you are underage.

>All it means is that there are 10 BILLION dollars worth of suckers who think bitcoin is worth something when it isn't
lmao, then nothing has value. Does the computer you are using have value? You could very well survive without it, it's not like you eat it to sustain yourself. By your logic literally nothing has value.
>The day is fast approaching when bit coin will be traded for nothing
Keep telling yourself that. You are free to be wrong after all.

>Anyways, your arguments are very good. Do you like punk music?

what did he mean by this?

>lmao, then nothing has value. Does the computer you are using have value?

No, VALUE is determined by UTILITY much more so than it is determined by what someone will pay for it. You can sucker anyone to pay for something that has no utility, just like bitcoin, it has a high PRICE, but no VALUE

It means that you sound like a punk that decided to read a book. Your spelling is off half the time but the ideology matches up.

I absolutely applaud all you traders who are scamming people with bitcoin, it's great! making money off of peoples greed and ignorance is very good, very good indeed.

I'm just pointing out that bitcoin as a currency itself has no value

of course you can trade it for tons of USD because their are tons of suckers who believe in the "decentralized currency" meme

BUT all of your debts and transactions with bitcoin are NOT subject to LEGAL enforcement which is very RISKY

Like I said, I could take tons of investments in bitcoin and then simply not pay it back and the lender would have no legal recourse unless the state decided to back bit coin with force

Apparently Bitcoin is a commodity though. bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-17/bitcoin-is-officially-a-commodity-according-to-u-s-regulator

I've yet to here a single counter argument, only ad hominems and No you're wrong.

Destroying bitcoin would be as easy as pointing out this flaw I have demonstrated here, but in a wider scale, a few articles on a finical news site and suddenly everyone will realize how worthless they are.

Good luck with having 600 dollar bitcoins no one will trade for because they have been educated to the fact they are being scammed with worthless currency.

And next time you are going to insult someone, be a man and own up to it instead of using veiled attacks

>VALUE is determined by UTILITY
why are diamonds so valuable then? They don't serve any purpose besides being shiny and rare.
I am stupid for wasting my time on a two-digits IQ.

>bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-17/bitcoin-is-officially-a-commodity-according-to-u-s-regulator

Okay, that's all I need.

because the STATE backs it as a currency, it has VALUE.

>why are diamonds so valuable then?

They aren't VALUABLE idiot, they just have a high PRICE.
jewelry is a scam for the rich and people getting married, and gangsters

Well, I don't know if the state backs it as a currency, but it backs it as a commodity which probably have laws protecting against theft. I'm not well versed in that field.

Here is a list of Bitcoin's legality by country. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country

You need not feel insulted, as I said your arguments are very good and I was interested.

punk is usually mean as an insult.

I was referring to the music movement and accompanying political/economical awareness

>en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country

The U.S. Treasury classified bitcoin as a convertible decentralized virtual currency in 2013.[42]
The Commodity Futures Trading Commission, CFTC, classified bitcoin as a commodity in September 2015

Okay, because it is sanctioned as a legal currency by the sate and subject to enforcement by the state, it is a legitimate currency.

The only reason I can imagine the USA doing this is because they have found a way to electronically track all exchanges made with bitcoin.

The USA government is really on a "all seeing all knowing" trip right now, which is good for them.

>Anyways, all I can say is I'm excited to see how this all pans out.

As long as the state can have access to monitoring all electronic transactions made with bitcoin they will have incentive to allow and even promote this "decentralized" currency.

The only obstacle truly facing crypto currencies now is the knowledge curve of how to use it. Many people will forgo it's use because it's "too complicated"

It has to become incredibly user friendly and the intimidating evaluation of bitcoin will cause some people to remain with the dollar

>what? 50 bucks for 1/8th of a bit coin? math is hard....

They will have to split their coins you would stocks for wider use to be achieved, IF bitcoin is going for wider use or the government pressures them into it.

Honestly the fact that the government sponsors it tells me that either the people on capital hill are dumber than they pretend to be or they had a hand in it's creation or were at least aware of it's creation before hand.

what's your ideology on the bitcoin then? As opposed to my "punkrock" ideology?

I agree with the difficulty curve being there. Bitcoin isn't on the radar of the average Joe let alone knowing how to use it. Very slowly it's becoming more user friendly but the legendary "killer app" just isn't there yet.

Also, nobody knows how Bitcoin will ever displace fiat currency.

I think the US should vest some interest in Bitcoin, a few years ago there was a short lived hoax where Iran would start selling crude oil for Bitcoin. It was ridiculous but not outside the realm of possibility. Because of this I wouldn't be surprised that the US gov has some Bitcoin stashed away or has some kind of hair trigger ready to go and enter Bitcoin, ironically enough to protect the position of the petro dollar.

As for my ideology I'm pro Bitcoin, but what you said about the state's monopoly on violence and other arguments just cannot be countered. A crackdown on crypto is also a real possibility, I personally don't know how to stop Bitcoin or other crypto though. A soldier in every household or at every cash register? Or surveillance of every piece of tech? It's a scary thought and I hope Bitcoin is in a way subversive enough to resist and mainstream enough to grow. And for the coming years we will see just how that pans out

>Or surveillance of every piece of tech?

That already exists and that is how they will do it.

If they want to crack down on bitcoin they can just make it illegally and start a war on crypto currencies akin to the war on drugs

I highly doubt that will happen though. I think the state wants to use bitcoin to track everyone's transactions, so it will probably get state backing.

However I don't think the usa will allow oil to be traded in anything besides usd

Why have you been responding to yourself throughout this whole thread?

He's trolling himself.

nicovideo.jp/watch/sm29119646

>no u
Wow what a great argument m8
You still didn't address the fact that you're a samefagging jackass.

Huh really makes you think

>you can trade it for usd
>but it's worthless

You wat now

>"oops well that didn't happen"

That's not how it works. Banks carry insurance for fraud for this very reason. They can't just print money at will you retard. The Fed determines the currency volume in circulation, the banks are merely middle men.

When money is stolen via fraud, the bank contacts the fdic (or another insurance corporation, depending on the account type in question and the size of the fraud). That money doesn't just get replaced for free/nobody "pretends it didn't happen"; banks pay hefty insurance premiums for the ability to file claims and reverse fraudulent transactions for consumers. They certainly don't just pretend the transaction never existed, because that money doesn't usually get automatically reversed. Seriously, you don't understand the first thing about banking or transaction processing, stop embarrassing yourself.

Source: I'm an auditor for a large regional bank in the US. I get paid six figures to audit this shit.

>don't they know a non-fiat currency is worthless?
This is the dumbest thing I'ver ever read. Nigger do you know what fiat means?

money.cnn.com/2014/08/28/technology/security/bank-hack/
Hackers stole over a billion dollars 2 years ago from multiple banks over a period of a few years. They simply trojaned in, got admin privileges, and wrote down an extra amount of money in the system, then they sent this new money to a bank account of their own, withdrew it, and got off scot free.

still no one has found them

I can't find the exact article but these hacking heists had been going on for years and no bank came forward because they did not want to have their reputation for security tarnished.

So, when the money went missing, they simply typed in that the money had not gone missing at all, and wiped the theft from their records.

Just because you can legally command someone to disclose all information doesn't mean they are going to actually do it.

An audit just means you have to make up a lot of good bullshit real quick, having legit records helps with this but it's not necessary if you are master of the lost art of just covering it all up.

it means command or decree.

Literally this means that the money is enforced by a governing power with the ability to enforce it's decrees and rules it makes for other entities

I'd rather have the money that represents the power of a mighty fiat entity than money that represents the power of some small business of nerds that process bitcoin transactions

I mean if I was a powerful bank or company I would probably have my real records separate from the public records I shared during an audit.

It just makes good sense, and if I have enough powerful political friends, I shouldn't have to worry about getting caught.

Think about this, all these major transnational corporations are famous for dodging taxes right?

Do you think moving all that money undetected and accounting for it every step along the way to your tax haven is easy? along with keeping up with government entities trying to track you down and the new tax laws in the multiple different regions?

No, it requires a team, maybe even a whole department, to coordinate these massive tax dodges

However that department never turns up on a audit. Why? because no one is even thinking to look for it.

>And once it is it will become another fiat currency.

Just like gold was years ago, oh wait...

They have a high price EXACTLY BECAUSE THEY ARE VALUABLE you fucking idiot. kys.