This guy's plan was literally to upgrade the working / middle class

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

this guy's plan was literally to upgrade the working / middle class... why the fuck did people not vote for him in droves?

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Hillary cheated did you even read the DNC leaks? Trump is better anyway.

MPmaster
MPmaster

How does this guy not get shit on by his government colleagues when he shits on them as a platform

girlDog
girlDog

Go back to pol

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Harmless_Venom
because he's a commie.. nobody got time f0 dat shied

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Harmless_Venom
because even if he had good intentions his ideas were retarded and would never even pass in congress because they're moronic and would only harm the poor and middle class beyond repair.

5mileys
5mileys

The real minimum wage is zero.

By increasing the minimum wage artificially and increasing the tax burden on both individuals and companies is a way to make sure that the working class/middle class will become no more than that.

You create zero wealth by setting an artificial minimum wage.

Inmate
Inmate

He has some good ideas, but creating (free-stuff) bubbles is fucking retarded. We don't need to make college free, we need to not fund retarded study programs that our market doesn't need. Our tax dollars shouldn't subsidize a student to go study non-profit management, history, environmental science, or whatever other retarded major, come out jobless and then blame everybody else for being in debt. Going to college is/was like getting a loan for a business, what kind of business(major) would be successful and help make you the most money in the long run.

Also for the minimum wage. It would kill a lot of small businesses to raise wages, do people really think a mid-sized factory will just continue to work with the same amount of employees with a wage increase? They'll cut people or stop hiring to make up for the costs.. it wouldn't do jack shit to large corporations. Also for entry level skilled workers, they'd get killed by the wage increase when companies will start asking for more requirements, more experience, and put up bigger barriers to apply for work.

Skullbone
Skullbone

@5mileys
This

All a minimum wage does is prohibit legal employment of people to do jobs that aren't worth whatever the minimum wage is set at. Keep in mind that the worth of a job is partially a function of the useful activity done and partially the person performing the job. Minimum wages are expressly designed thus to put "less desirable" people (women, minorities, young people, old people, etc) out of work and secure those jobs for more desirable people (middle aged white guys). Minimum wages don't help the people who want them so badly, hurt the most vulnerable workers in a society, and add economic inefficiency.

TechHater
TechHater

@5mileys
You create zero wealth by setting an artificial minimum wage.

No, you just have the wealth created by the workers actually going to workers, not top level leeches. I mean, it's the workers that increased productivity, right?

If workers are forced to magically materialize more "productivity" eternally, then the businesses can come up with the cash to pay for it, that only seems fair, right? And if this massive increase in productivity somehow hasn't generated increases in revenue and profit, maybe the top end leeches are being useless and shouldn't be paid shit.

Minimum wage increases don't cause massive unemployment spikes, history literally disagrees with you fairly clearly.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@TechHater
I mean, it's the workers that increased productivity, right?
It's automation. Productivity is generally only increased through automation.

Nojokur
Nojokur

Fuck man really make you think....why doesn't Venezuela just upgrade the working class? They'd be so rich!

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@5mileys
Explain pls. Not being an asshole I just dont understand.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Harmless_Venom
Simply put, people are greedy.

People are typically politically aligned with their current financial status.

The poor want social safety nets because it benefits them.

The rich want lower taxes because they feel they've earned their money and don't want to give it to those lazy poor people.

It's interesting you bring up bernie and the middle class- they're even more territorial about their money, so much so that they would fight something that would ultimately help in the long run because it might mean that they lose a few bucks every paycheck.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@TechHater
The top level business owners aren't leaches. There is no value intrinsic to most jobs. Take Walmart, the work that a cashier does is completely useless without the massive, meticulously optimized infrastructure provided by Walmart. The worker is essentially renting capital from the owner in order to be productive, and he gets payed a small fee for maintaining the corporation's investment. It's literally impossible to leach off of somebody that doesn't create or have value.

Also just friendly advice, it's fairly obvious you don't read much economics, which is fine, but realize you aren't going to get very far arguing semantics. Saying what you said about productivity to an economist would be like telling a doctor that a cold can be helped with a blanket (to warm the cold person up of course). While it's not strictly speaking wrong to give someone with a cold a blanket, you're reasoning is flawed because you don't understand the medical definition of "cold".

Techpill
Techpill

@Harmless_Venom
upgrade

You mean downgrade the upperclass.

Fuck off you Marxist nigger.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@Harmless_Venom

Muh greed
Except Apple you know, even though they mark up their products by 100% and outsource all their jobs to China, I still need my iPhone so they're not greedy

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@Harmless_Venom
Fuck off kike. He was for the lower class. He was trying to destroy the upper class through wealth redistribution. We need the upper class a whole fuck of a lot more than the lower class. I'll take Elon Musk over a fucking burger flipping Jamal any day. Not even a good type of socialist.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Carnalpleasure
He wasn't for the lower class either. Tax increases + minimum wage hike = price hikes + massive unskilled labor force unemployment

His plans benefitted no one except for entitled welfare queens and illegal immigrants.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@Emberburn
You're right. He pretended to fight for the lower class, but yeah, that would be the end result.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Emberburn
@Carnalpleasure
I'm always amazed at how many ignorant people their are regarding Bernie. Look at Vermont's economy and tell me his plans don't work.

The man's a legend. Drove a bus full of the elderly to get prescriptions in Canada because price. He's the reason I had dental care growing up and why I could afford college. Invest in your population and they'll reward you with taxes and as a skilled workforce.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@SniperWish
there*

Tired.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Gigastrength

You interpreted leeches as being the capital owners/providers, when I mostly mean executives making 8 figures while managing companies in almost criminally incompetent fashions.

How is my interpretation wrong? Increased productivity should increase worker's take home, otherwise you're working harder and being paid less for it, right?

And if executives somehow "can't find the money" in the face of this massive increase in productivity, then they're mismanaging their companies and/or mostly giving themselves huge payouts for actual unproductive work.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@TurtleCat
I don't think its wrong. I've seen many people take up having the biggest office next to the owner/investors/etc. to end up just leeching from the company and creating new procedures and policies that do nothing to generate revenue just to say "look we're making progress". Out of the couple of people that has done that in the last two jobs I've worked for only 2 ended up doing something that helps bring in customers/profits.

Even at the most basic businesses this happens. My first job was at a restaurant that was handled by the owner until he was forced sell a part of it to a family member that ended up bringing in some General Manager/Accountant of a corporate chain that did absolutely jack shit to get that business out of the hole. Paid that guy in the high 5 figures to create new cleaning procedures, clock-in policy, and suggesting us to cut as many corners as possible to make service time almost instant. If the recession back in 2008 lasted another year that business would of been closed up but instead is just living on life support.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

Increase minimum wage
Oh woops we can't have that with free trade. Good bye even more jobs.
Nice job liberals. You can't want both cheap goods and high wages. It's eating your cake and having it at the same time.

takes2long
takes2long

@TurtleCat
Why would a board of directors pay a guy 8 figures if he is incompetent at what he does? If he does stuff wrong, he gets fired by the board.

askme
askme

@Sir_Gallonhead
how are you gonna outsource mcdonalds fry cooks to china?

hairygrape
hairygrape

@askme
how are you gonna outsource mcdonalds fry cooks to china?
Easy. China sends McDonald's mass produced computers and robots to replace employees. That or people will have to eat their Big Mac for 10 dollars a piece.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@hairygrape
thinks having robots and IT techs running a mcdonalds would be cheaper then paying someone min wage.

Methshot
Methshot

@Deadlyinx
thinks having robots and IT techs running a mcdonalds would be cheaper then paying someone min wage.
It'll be a glorified vending machine. McDonald's is mass produced food. You don't need complicated machine wizardry or a chef to make fast food.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@SniperWish
He's the reason I had dental care growing up and why I could afford college
He's also the reason you're paying taxes on that dental care even when you're not actually using it and why you're still in debt over college. What you liberals don't understand about market capitalism is that the more you federally subsidize something, the less affordable it gets for the average person because the industry will shift its prices to accommodate what the government can give it, not what the average person can give it. The average person is nonetheless still expected to shoulder much of the burden that the government creates and so you have people going into debt in order to pay for things that would be perfectly affordable if the government had stayed out.

@Sir_Gallonhead
This is what always pisses me off the most about liberals. They try to come off as taking the moral high ground about illegal immigration, as if we're doing them a service by letting them come here and take paid under the table jobs to keep prices artificially low while at the same time demanding $15/hour for themselves for the oh-so productive task of filling cups at Starbucks. It's self-serving hypocrisy of the highest order.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@hairygrape
robots to replace employees
Pretty much this.

it's not that difficult to attach a motor on a timer to a fry basket. Or a motorized spatula to a grill.

only reason it hasn't been done is poor people are cheaper and more versatile atm. That will change.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@takes2long

You've honestly never heard of anyone, in say the last 30 years, that came into a big company, making huge money, yet oversaw its complete collapse, then got a huge payout for it?

Like, seriously, not once you've run across this? I can name over a dozen just off the top of my head, some even literally criminal.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Skullbone
muh true value of worth

Keynesian cuck detected. Will keyesfags ever learn true value is arbitrary and just a useful idea?

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Gigastrength
a Walmart cashier has no use without the massively optimised structure of Walmart

And the massively optimised structure of Walmart is useless without cashiers. The difference is there is only one Walmart and many potential cashiers. Supply and demand.

literally impossible to leech off something that doesn't create wealth or have value
It's begging the question, you already established the value as having captial which is something your theoretical worker doesn't have.

I think he was referring to leeching off profits, i.e. a bad renting deal.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Harmless_Venom
why the fuck did people not vote for him
I was cool with paying tax when I made money selling stock.
Paying tax when I lost money selling stock was more like Bizarro world.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Skullbone

Then tell me why in no country that has minimum wage there is a correlation between rise in minimum wage and unemployment? Oc right because people dont stop going to their hair dresser if they have to pay him more they just pay 20 bucks for a haircut instead of 15

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Illusionz
And the massively optimised structure of Walmart is useless without cashiers
No, the structure is always adapting. It became the way it is because of the availability of cheap labour. If all the cashiers disappeared tomorrow, the structure would reevaluate and pivot into whatever can be made profitable or simply disappear and be replaced by a more effective one.
On the other hand, cashier is a bottom of a barrel human being, who can barely function at a low capacity, a meat machine essentially. Someone who in his whole life hasn't attained a single marketable ability, hasn't learned anything of value.
The only reason these people survive is because we're a compassionate species and subsidize this type of behavior. And the only reason they exist in the first place is because our society allows you to live well without creating any value.

Techpill
Techpill

@haveahappyday
Entirely incorrect.

The thing about it is, society has put a huge damper on what counts as a 'marketable' ability, and in exchange for being allowed to set those millions of laws, they accommodate people whom have a skill set outside the realm of what that society has deemed acceptable by offering menial labor for money.

What would actually happen if the entirely of a workforce was suddenly fired, would be best described as a bloodbath, and the majority of the victims would be the people who fit within the spectrum of that societies ideas of 'model citizenry' or 'model workforce ability'.

The poor may not be smart, but there is a reason that in the end, they get a certain measure of respect. Because, unlike most people who live comfortably, the poor can, and some have, beat a man to death for food. You respect the bottom rung of the ladder because it is quite capable of ruining all of your schemes, dreams, and plans, by beating you to death because you've starved them.

Thats the thing people seem to forget so often. It isnt compassion. It's self-preservation of the system. You need them, more than they need you. If you arent intelligent enough to see im correct, look at the middle east, brazil, russia, all the shit holes of the world. The poor dont have work? People get killed and robbed so they can live, and the worse the poor, the more brutal the crime.

Skullbone
Skullbone

his policies are trash so I voted for hillary

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Harmless_Venom
Because he, as most of the presidental candidates "Comes out of nowhere". Therefore I present to you Bernie Sanders v2.0 (B2 for short) for the 2020 election.

B2 should make a name for himself when the honeymoon for the next president is over. He should not only plug the message as some retardo pundit, but be a real statesman and make sure that people knows about it. B2 should also strive to increase the percentage of voters. True, the state is more important for the average american than the federation.

True, one of the charms with the US is that you can move from one state to another and create a new life for yourself. But if the federation know who you are for drafting purposes, then you should not have to register for vote. You should get a voting card sent to you in the mail.

A simple tit for tat. A federation that excepts you to die must also except that you vote.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Gigastrength
Take Walmart, the work that a cashier does is completely useless without the massive, meticulously optimized infrastructure provided by Walmart.
And yet they can't optimize it to make the goods checkout by itself.

WebTool
WebTool

@Harmless_Venom
@SniperWish
@SomethingNew

Why are there libtards on Veeky Forums and Veeky Forums? This place isn't the hugbox that they thrive in.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Illusionz
Considering that every other time I have gone to Walmart, I have just used the self checkout, you're wrong. Walmart does not need to hire cashiers. Most of the cashiers aRe hired out of kindness anyways, they usually aren't particularly friendly, and it is not any faster than self checkout.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@WebTool
This.
Why do they go to the one place that isn't reddit and tumblr. Life would be so much better if we shipped these outspoken libfags to Mars where they can circle jerk about the evil upper class.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@Fried_Sushi

You're paid what you're worth and what your employee can afford.

Let's say your employer can only afford to pay you $12/hour, if they would have to pay you $15/hour they would lose $3 every hour, not very profitable is it?

So, having the government force employers to pay their employees $15/hour is ridiculous. What would happen is what we have seen throughout history, the employer would instead of hiring that extra worker, not hire one at all. Or he would hire one and have everyone work longer hours while increasing prices to offset the loss from being forced to pay $15/hour for something that only brings in $12/hour. This will make finding your first job.

If you think it's a hard life at $12/hour? Try life at $0/hour.

The government can't dictate wages, the real minimum wage is zero.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Fried_Sushi

This will make it harder to find your first job* is what I wanted to write.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@Fried_Sushi
You're paid what you're worth

Business aren't charities. They're entities that exist to make as much money as possible for their owner(s). You, the employee, are nothing more than a resource that consumes money the owners could be giving to themselves. That's why they'll pay you as little as they possibly can while still getting you to show up and do work. If their business could function without you, you'd be fired. If they could pay you less and still get you to do work for them, they would.

Think your life is hard at $CurrentMinimumWage? Try life at $0/hour after the minimum wage is abolished and you lose your job to some poor/sick/elderly/felon/minority/immigrant/teenager who will do anything for scraps, or who will do anything to fill the gaps on their resume.

King_Martha
King_Martha

It's a fixed game. Duh.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@Boy_vs_Girl

Believe or not but people can hold more value to a company other than being able to work for the absolute minimum payment possible.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@happy_sad
Go back into your dad's nutsack

askme
askme

@5mileys
Do you praise Adonai with that mouth?

iluvmen
iluvmen

@Gigastrength
Are you a Walton?
No?
Go fuck yourself

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

Wealth inequality has been a major cause behind the great international discord we see today. People are naturally corrupt and by decreasing the amount of money one has you limit the amount of damage he can cause.

hairygrape
hairygrape

@Harmless_Venom
I very much agree with him on the healthcare issues

It's really fucked that an ambulance ride and emergency room admission could cost tens of thousands, just because your condition wasn't an arbitrarily-defined "emergency"

RavySnake
RavySnake

@hairygrape
1) they should throttle the ability to charge that anyway
2) should have health insurance

WebTool
WebTool

@RavySnake
It doesn't matter if you have insurance dumbass, if your ambulance isn't covered you get charged out the ass

It's fucked all around

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@WebTool
if ambulance isnt in your basic hospital cover then youre a dumbass for not having basic health cover, which includes ambulance

dumbass

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@BlogWobbles
Say you get drunk or break your arm and someone calls an ambulance

If it's determined to be a non-emergency your insurance won't pay for it

DeathDog
DeathDog

@LuckyDusty
show me the product disclosure statement of a health insurer and where it states non emergencies like broken arms (which are actually emergencies) arent covered

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

here's a picture of a fake broken arm as an example

youre telling me a health insurer wouldnt cover that injury, even if its life threatening?

People do die from shock.

TechHater
TechHater

@ZeroReborn
dont want to post the pic some faggot mod will ban me

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@SniperWish
How would Vermont's economy be working out if it also had to carry, say, Mississippi?

If you say anything other than it wouldn't, you are delusional and belong on a reddit " I donated my rent money to Bernie now I'm getting evicted" thread

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Boy_vs_Girl
poor/sick/elderly/felon/minority/immigrant/teenager who will do anything for scraps,

You do realize that huge swaths of these people are 100% unemployable. I own business that need $10/hr labor because what they do contributes so little to the company's bottom line. They have a job to effectively be a fringe benefit to a real employee who gets to offload those trivial or mundane tasks off to said grunt.

It's easily the hardest position to fill. Bottom feeders don't even apply for the job, they don't show up consistently, they do a poor job at the task set and often have a ton of life baggage they dump on the workplace.

Point being, lowest tier laborers are shit laborers. They don't provide value so forcibly dragging up their pay with min wage causes the position to just be abandoned and the tasks are reassigned to a higher productivity worker. Often along w/ a monitary bump to support the fact they have the extra workload.

SMBs around the nation know. Low pay workers need low pay because they provide low value.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@Need_TLC
Btw wasn't disagreeing with your post- just adding to it

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