This is fucking hilarious!

I concur with 100% of this post.

The somewhat unspoken rule of salaries is that they - in most situations - are roughly reflective of how much value you add. Line cooks get jack shit because it requires 0 skill, though the work is admittedly hard. Ditto for "cooks" who pop things in the microwave.

>living wage
you can live on pennies in this fucking country. A YMCA membership, a thrift store, a junker car, and GMO food that is cheap as dirt when bought in bulk is all that you need.

If by "livable wage" you mean NYC flats, color tvs, eating out, and driving new cars, then no it's not a livable wage, you spoiled shit.

>How would you like to go to a restaurant only for them to tell you "sorry, we have no cooks today"

By the way, if this was the case then the wage for cooks would rise to reach homeostasis because the restaurant would need to pay more to attract cooks to meet their demand otherwise it would get shutdown

Yes I know there's exceptions but for the most part the market is right.

Those jobs pay jack shit because ANYONE with a working body and brain can fulfill them. They require no specialized skills, no talents, no education, no real experience.

>Put steak on grill
>Wait time until it looks cooked to medium rare
>Flip over steak
>Steak is ready, use tongs to lift steak and put it on plate

wow so hard, rly deserves $80k/yr salary starting with full vision dental and 6 month vacation time

>Home health aides

These are literally just people that come to your house and clean up and cook. The only difference between them and a straight maid is that they can help with giving you prescriptions and testing blood sugar.

No degree required. All you have to have is first aid/CPR certifications and take a weekend training course.

This isn't the same thing as a home nurse, which actually pays a lot.

Exactly.
Yet here in Australia we have a fucking nation of deluded entitled cunts who think it's reasonable they should be paid $38/hr to take a cup of hot milk from point "A" to point "B" because it's a Sunday.

Im not lying. If you're over 21 and work casually on a Sunday, $35-38/hr.

whos more important

the cook feeding your fat ass.

or the fat ass that sits and rent seeks

same logic applied to executives

>yell at people until numbers are hit no matter how unreasonable
>Blame underlings if a failure
>Reap rewards if successful

>same logic applied to executives
But yet they're paid more, huh?

Why is that?

>the cook feeding your fat ass.

How is that a difficult job? I could do it myself, as I almost always do. (I rarely go out to eat, mostly because I can cook a better meal than most restaurants at a much better price, in the comfort of my own home.

Executive positions are arguably more meritocratic than lower levels. Those shareholder sharks will eat you alive and blacklist you if you don't perform. And they obviously wouldn't pay them so highly of they didn't think they brought value to a company commensurate with their salary.

You know the market doesnt determine minimum wage right?

>You know the market doesnt determine minimum wage right?

Yeah exactly, they'd probably be paid even less because they're worthless

Nobody would actually really say that tho lol. What a dunce

Because corporations have minipulated the price of diamonds to keep them high

>you can live on pennies
Not all of us live in their moms basement shitlord

Pennies is hyperbole. You can live very cheaply in America. Even illegals receive "livable wages". We tend to self select for higher costs. For example if you go to the barrio you can get groceries so cheap it will blow your mind. You can get your smartphone fix from a Chinese company for a fraction.

I never said it did, but I do believe it should.

The point isnt whether you think someone has worth. The point is this is a first world country and working adults should be entitled to a livable wage. Im not even sure why this is a controversial subject

>The point isnt whether you think someone has worth

Exactly, it's not what I think. It's what the market decide they're worth. And in this case they're worth very little, close to as little as they can legally be paid by the government.

>The point is this is a first world country and working adults should be entitled to a livable wage

What is a living wage? How much do you think they should be paid, lets put it that way
>Im not even sure why this is a controversial subject

Because that's not how economics works

What fucking barrio are you talking about? Ive lived in LA my whole life between downtown and koreatown. The ralphs in the ghetto is the same price as the one in studio marina del rey

The disconnect we're having is that your notion of a livable wage is either not based in reality, or includes unnecessary luxuries. Whereas we hold that it is the wage necessary to keep yourself alive.

>Ralphs
Tell me why poor people are so fucking fat then. It strikes me that they have TOO MUCH to eat, not too little.

Thats not what america is built on tho. Thats an oligarchy where the masses are exploited. That worked out real well for india

They literally never said trickledown economics. That's a myth.

>Thats not what america is built on tho

what is america built on then

How about you answer the question. How much should the minimum wage be and how should it be determined in your opinion?

What is a 'fair' minimum wage? Don't tell me 'a living wage', throw out some numbers and tell us how you got to those numbers, or what methodology you believe the government should realistically take to determine a minimum wage.

>masses are exploited
Return to the cripplechan from whence you came, /leftypol/!

Why did you greentext Ralphs? Poor people are fat because caloric dense foods are cheap and fast. Rich people arent as likely to go thru mcds drive thru on their lunch break or after a long shift

>Poor people are fat because caloric dense foods are cheap and fast.

LOL

[citation required]

Didn't know that chicken breast, vegetables, oats, rice, beans, whey protein, multivitamin were expensive.

>Rich people arent as likely to go thru mcds drive thru on their lunch break or after a long shift

So pack a lunch maybe?

Poor people are fat because they're retarded

I consider rent utilities food transportation and basic health care for self and dependents necessities

>rent utilities food transportation and basic health care for self and dependents necessities

And what makes you think currently the minimum wage does not provide that?

Again. The market doesnt set the minimum wage. I know youve read a ton of posts about econ on Veeky Forums but "the market is always right" isnt gospel.

Caloric dense fast food isn't the cheapest option even when you consider the value of their time (which is low). As I've said, they ought to buy bulk cereals, rice, beans, frozen meats and frozen vegetables. And if they're able to afford to get fat then they're patently "living" the shit out of themselves with their "unlivable wage".

>he market doesnt set the minimum wage

How much should the minimum wage be and how do you determine it?

>citation needed
So fucking google it shitlord. Since when is baking chicken and boiling rice considered fast?

All of that is affordable if you're economic, excepting the healthcare, and I would argue that the healthcare is only as expensive as it currently is because of government regulation, and subsidizing.

Why would it need to be fast. They can just prepare their meals in anticipation of eating. Even dogs know to burry food because they will, sometime in the future, be hungry again.

>So fucking google it shitlord

good one, make a claim then refuse to back it up.

>Since when is baking chicken and boiling rice considered fast?

Why does it need to be fast?

Buy some tupperware containers, cook then measure out your portions for a week. You can cook meals for an entire week within 2 hours on a weekend.

>The point is this is a first world country and working adults should be entitled to a livable wage

This argument is literally "It's 2016"

>let me just boil some beans here at my desk on my lunch break
Ok

Yes it is possible to go your whole life without fast food. No that is not realistically. I was asked why poor people are more likely to be fat and i answered

hello i'm waiting for you tell me how much the minimum wage should be and how it should be determined

You've been ducking the question for quite a few posts now.

>No that is not realistically.

I haven't ate fastfood in years. Why is that unrealistic? Am i a special person

T u p p e r w a r e
Now that we've established that they will be fed, and fed again, overmuch and in excess, tell me about how they're not getting a "livable wage".

dude they're just entitled to it, okay?

People in a first world country should be entitled to [x], okay? That's it, that's the argument

Basic math. 40 hours at min wage would be ~13,000 before soc security, state tax, insurance ect. Rent alone would be about 6000 of that easily even in a shitty apartment. That leaves less than 500 a month for utilities, transportation, food and other expenses. Add a dependent on that and you can see how that tiny window disappears

Saturation of the labor supply through immigration forces wages down.

It's why the rich have consistently lobbied for increased immigration.

Also it needs to be understood that there is an upper limit on the number of jobs in "high-skilled" sectors and taking the time to become trained to qualify for them is a significant risk in of itself, some industries purposefully regulate the number of people who can enter to prevent their sector from becoming saturated.

I agree a minimum wage isn't a solution, what is a solution is banning immigration, deporting foreign labor and enforcing mass birth control, this will forcibly increase the value of these areas.

How fucking stupid are you

Yes you are a statistical anomaly. But I think you knew that and are just being deliberately obtuse

intended for quoted dude, not you

He's not a statistical anomaly, he's just economic. And we shouldn't institute untenable economic policies because the poor are foolhardy with their wealth.

>Yes you are a statistical anomaly.

What makes it so unrealistic?

i don't smoke, i don't use recreational drugs, i don't drink alcohol (few times /year), I don't eat fastfood. I drink soda maybe a couple times every few years.

i haven't found any of that stuff hard, it's just habits and a lifestyle. It's all it is. You can build good habits, or you can build bad habits.

Poor people need to replace their habits of smoking weed and eating junk food with working on a business and reading books. See how easy their life will improve from that

how much should the minimum wage be

So thats your argument? Poor people should live on week old lentils because the wealthy dont want to give slight minimum wage increases?

>So thats your argument? Poor people should live on week old lentils because the wealthy dont want to give slight minimum wage increases?

I don't think you understand that the minimum wage does not help the poor and vulnerable, that's the irony of this all

Are you really equating a mcdouble with housing and healthcare? Ones a fucking dollar

>poor people just need to start businesses
Holy shit. You jumped the shark. Let me know that great business plan you have that has next to 0 startup costs. Does it involve kneepads?

I don't think we're getting anywhere here.

learnliberty.org/videos/does-minimum-wage-hurt-workers/

The problem goes beyond that while a few may become successful the system is such that the majority are guaranteed not to be.

The fact is the opportunity for advancement among the lower classes is pretty low, some make it but at this point I would say classes are becoming more rigid.

Beyond this there's the issue of many simply being not capable of anything more.

Costs can be cut when it comes to a living situation to. Healthcare is a debacle I'll admit it, but I would credit that to chronic policy problems and the government' fat fingers

OK if anyone with a working brain can fill those jobs at McDonald's then why are my fries soggy, the burger has onions when I specifically said no onion, and diet fucking coke is Mr pib?

A lot of economists agree that 10.10 would be a good number. So ill defer to that. Personally i think 9.75 or 17,000 after tax would be a good base but obviously that varies by location.

We have economic mobility on par with most of the countries that subscribe to the European pseudo socialism meme, and even the socialist hardliners don't believe that shit can be maintained without cheap third world imports.

>I would say "Okay no problem, I'll just go to costco, buy some steaks that cost a fraction of what it'd cost me here at your shitty restaurant and grill them up at home with my date, no big deal".

but that's beside the point, if that were the case then the market would find homeostasis, an equilibrium.

Correcting that previous poster you're arguing with, NO it is definitely not an easy job. Hell, why else would you NEED a college degree just to get that kind of job? You don't need one for working at MickyDee's and any other fastfood joint, but you need one if you want to work at those proper restaurants like the ones you just mentioned actually (Applebees, etc.). So obviously you need an actual SKILL to be able to do that job, and it would need to PAY WELL later on in your career.

Btw cooking shitty steak =/= possessing years worth of knowledge on how to:

-cook different types of dishes SPECIFIC to a certain type of restaurant
-being able to accurately measure putting ingredients in your cooking... WITHOUT A MEASURING TOOL (most of the time you measure it by sight alone)
-knowing how to manage the stocks in your ingredients and supplies
-cooking the food UNDER PRESSURE because that customer ain't gonna wait for hours
-Oh, not to mention you've still got OTHER dishes to cook and not just that one steak you're cooking on the grill.

Some of your "business" people here are so disconnected from reality, it actually makes me doubt you're business owners at all. That, or you don't really work or own a business in this specific type of industry, so your comments aren't worth a damn.

Autism, pure distilled Autism coming from you.

>A lot of economists agree that 10.10 would be a good number

In what area? In what country?

In what year?

>Personally i think 9.75 or 17,000 after tax would be a good base but obviously that varies by location.

What do you believe the consequences of such a minimum wage increase could potentially be?

Like what do you believe happens if we went to the extremes. Let's say, $50/hr federal minimum wage, $0/hr federal minimum wage(none at all) or $2/hr federal minimum wage. In the US, just hypothetically. What effects would it have?

This post is not constructive.

>costs can be cut for housing
Ya the street is pretty cheap. Dude $600 is dirt cheap rent in 90% of the county. Do you people have any concept of "standard of living"? Yes you can save money every where but where do you draw the line? You dont need toothpaste to survive. You dont need a few pizzas a year. The whole point of raising minimum wage is to get people out of squalor and poverty

Thousands of economists disagree with that

So we have economic mobility of socialist countries with none of the benefits provided by them.

That's not a good argument.

I just don't think we should be in the business of subverting the market and making our labor noncompetitive to save people from themselves.

Considering that wage hikes can cost people jobs, isn't it a concern that 0 dollars an hour is an unlivable wage?

Equality of outcome is not a moral imperative. People being rich around you doesn't mean they wronged you.

Again, the main reason we see a reduction in mobility is because the system's overregulation, and tax system is hostile to small business. Mandatory minimum wage hurts them further.

>The whole point of raising minimum wage is to get people out of squalor and poverty

Why do you believe this would be the case and wouldn't cause inflation and unemployment?

Don't you think that rent would be increased because now so many people are getting paid $x more and can therefore aford to pay?

The jobs that still exist in the US can't be outsourced.

Increasing costs in service areas would be fine, the rich that use them have additional money to spend.

The few areas which consist of poor people servicing other poor people are soon to be completely automated so it's inaccurate to say that it would price people out of the market.

Minimum wage is socialism now? Holy cow

I thought yall were trying to argue an egalitarian position here.

Ok so the US has less economic mobility then socialist countries and overall worse outcomes.

Your only argument against it is: I fall into the better half so I don't want you to change it.

It's not a compelling argument, I will advocate for what ever is best for me and that may be directly at odds with what's good for you.

America. Recently during the obama administration. Maybe you should broaden your horizons from Veeky Forums and /pol/ maybe read a book or a newspaper

>what if we went to the extremes
Why would we do that? Im asking for marginal increase in quality of life. Not for everyone to have a ferarri

I'm asking how you believe that will affect things in the big picture

Within the bounds of morality. What gives you the right to demand things of people who rightfully earned or inherited wealth?

>save the people from themselves
But thats just it man. This is a society. You have to think outside your personal desires. I dont need a hospital to be built 500 miles away but ill be happy to pay taxes for one. Just because a person can survive on week old lentils doesnt mean they should have to. If youre willing to work 40 hrs a week and contribute to society you deserve to know you can afford living expenses. Whatever man thats my thesis. You autists have at it with how you can save money by shitting in public restrooms or whatever and proles are scum

Settle down Bernie Sanders

There won't be a class war anytime soon

Don't take the ball home; we were having fun.

I can see the argument for inflation even if i dont agree with it. What i dont understand is how unemployment will rise. What employer is hiring two employees when he only needs one? He does this out of the kindness of his heart? Shit I thought this was a business board

itt:
>WHY DON'T YOU JUST GET RICH? LMAO

>What employer is hiring two employees when he only needs one? He does this out of the kindness of his heart? Shit I thought this was a business board

Can you watch the video on the page i linked about?

About how the minimum wage hurts workers? It explains this exact question.

They profited from a system propped up by many other people, it's not their wealth but the accumulated efforts of society as a whole.

If they disagree I believe society should remove all protections provided to them, it's unlikely they will keep their wealth for very long.

>If they disagree I believe society should remove all protections provided to them, it's unlikely they will keep their wealth for very long.

I think we can agree finally.

Indeed the government should have no intervention in the market besides ensuring certain health regulations. They should ineed not keep their wealth if they cannot compete in the free market

I agree, corporate welfare is anti competitive. The big boys should not get special privileges and be kept afloat on tax payer money or through printing. It's like we're paying our competition to keep competing with us.

But its a false equivelency. Raising min wage to $50 would effect almost 75% of the population compared to 4%.

I've come to tell you the irony that you are an idiot

>a shirt folder at the Gap
Right, because they let retail workers do just one thing like all fucking day. I'm too fucking exhausted to explain to you how stupid you are.

Git gud proles