Who fucked up China the most? The Qing Dynasty or People's Republic of China

The Qing considering the Manchus inherited the Chinese empire from a time when it still wasnt shit.

Culturally the PRC. But then you'd reach the argument where how much of anti-traditionalism was by the Commies, and how much of it was from the Qing Decline period where plenty of reformers were screaming for China to change.

Qing had good emperors who helped China prosper succeeded by shitty ones who fucked it up.
PRC had a shitty leader who fucked it up succeeded by good ones who helped China prosper.

the qing. things weren't entirely peachy for them when the country started to go off the rails, but they had tons of time and loads of opportunity to fix it, and failed over and over again. part of it was the westerners hamstringing them, but their own epic incompetence cannot be overstated.

you aren't wrong, but this really is saying very little if anything.

The Qing, not even debatable. The century of humiliation is literally the lowest point in Chinese history and it was directly caused by the enormous amounts of corruption and the impotency of the Imperial house to handle external threats. The Imperial system made very little sense in the 19th century and the Qing's failure to adapt to a rapidly changing world destroyed the notion that China was firstly a great power but, more importantly to the Chinese psyche, the centre of the universe.

This is the biggest problem with the Century of Humiliation meme. It takes two to fucking tango. If the Qing hadn't been nomadic retards who drank too much from le middle kingdom meme they could have bought whole factories from the west, armories, technology and teachers.

>The century of humiliation is literally the lowest point in Chinese history
The Nanbeichao would like to have a word.

3 centuries for your one.

Holy shit you paranoid mess, how was that post /pol/. My god you need to rethink your fucking life

Not him but you sounded like a retard so he was right to think you were /pol/ or /r/eddit

True. But I guess I was thinking more in modern history, but you're not wrong.

i agree, though i do not think the western powers would have been entirely willing to allow the chinese to buy just anything they wanted from them. the west definitely had a vested interest in keeping them weak, though they didn't have to put too much effort into it when they were all too willing to do it to themselves.

another factor i see rarely mentioned is the qing's addiction to playing the chinese against each other in a bid to retain to their own minority(manchu) grip on power. this worked in retaining them on the top, but absolutely crippled the state in the long run.

Perhaps towards the 1800s. But in 1700 they would have sold anything to the Qing.

China was fucked over by its own system. If the main purpose of education is to memorize ancient texts in order to gain a position in the bureaucracy, that is not a system that encourages innovation. Compare the imperial exams to the Western university system.

This.
Many Chinese I talk to really hate his guts for completely destroying Chinese culture. There's an abyss between him and the China of before.
It's why China has a huge economic impact, but virtually no cultural influence. They don't have a high or low culture anymore. Just MAKE MONAY!

>China literally has a "Cultural Revolution"
>nu-philosopher interprets this as not abandoning their culture

Hmmm...

Please tell me about the Cultural Revolution /pol/.

If an entire people decide to change their culture, is it abandoning the culture, or forging a new one?

Can a people be "cultureless"?

Please tell me more /pol/.

[Multiple Citations Needed]

1. The Cultural Revolution didn't "destroy" culture. That's literally impossible to do without genociding a people or occupying them for centuries.
2. China 1966 and China 1969 were very very very similar. You are fucking retarded for thinking the Cultural Revolution had a major lasting impact on Chinese culture
3. China produces extensive amounts of culture. Both "high" and "low". Just because you are an ignorant fucking /pol/tard who never has watched a Chinese movie in his life doesn't mean everyone in China is an automaton working solely for money.

Fuck you shitposters. I hate how many fucking times I have to disprove you all because you can't accept facts that disagree with your worldview.

When Deng took power, he reinstated all of the Chinese traditions before the CR. He, actually, Huo Guangfeng (his predecessor) ended the Cultural Revolution and rehabilitated the persecuted.
Did you retards miss that part of history?

this is what happens when a minority rules a majority
the majority doesn't figh as hard for that goberment and it collapses

t. commie

Except the Qing did just fine for a couple hundred years, and the Qianlong Emperor's reign was the high point of Imperial China.

What do you mean by fucked up?

Are you one of those memers who blames the cultural revolution for the fact Chinese are bad mannered people who completely lack empathy?

Read Ralph Townsend. They've always been bad mannered people who have lacked empathy.

>who blames the cultural revolution for the fact Chinese are bad mannered people who completely lack empathy?
that wasn't the cultural revolution, that was the three generations worth of famine and poverty created by shitty memes like the Great Leap Forward leading to a dog-eat-dog world for hundreds of millions of dirt poor peasants.

It wasn't even that. Chinese people have ALWAYS been merciless and cruel, even to each other. Especially to each other. It's the result of living in a land populated to barest subsistence levels with such intense competition for resources that being able to eat fried dog knee cartilege is a great luxury.

Qing isolationism was too far reaching. They were to haughty

>1961 China was still better than 1949 China user.
yeah, but then in 1966....

corruption, humiliation, opium
yeah they really dropped the ball

>Are you one of those memers who blames the cultural revolution for the fact Chinese are bad mannered people who completely lack empathy?
>Read Ralph Townsend. They've always been bad mannered people who have lacked empathy.
It's a myth that they lack empathy, and they are just bad mannered to western standards, we are bad mannered in their eyes too. The Chinese are very friendly and kind people though. You almost get killed through kindness.

Qing are basically responsible for Mao and everything else bad. THey're basically elder-god tiers of incompetent and evil because of this causal relationship to Mao.

Current China is recovering though and is quickly on the way to becoming something resembling a strong society. That's the work of moving out of orthodox communism though.

Here's an interesting document if you want to know what the Chinese think about America: gwern.net/docs/2013-anonymous-strategicconsequencesofchineseracism.pdf

The best leadership China can have is beginning to solidify around now (and was present in Hong Kong) and is in the form of a disinterested administrator.

at least no one fucks with the PROC

Qing dynasty lost from China what no other dynasty lost, their pride.

Dude, the Mongols put Han Chinks at the very bottom rung of society quite literally.

Stop being an overseas chink faggot who watches CCP propaganda online because he doesn't have a girlfriend lol.

1969 China was better than 1966 China was better than 1961 China was better than 1949 China was better than 193JUST China was not better than 1936 China was better than 1925 China was better than 1917 China was better than 1912 China was not better than 1650-1911 China

Therefore, by this logic, Qing China was masterrace

>mixing up Yuan China with PRoC/Qing China

I-I am not sure what to make of this post...
I-It's m-mixing up three different eras of Chinese history centuries apart and using memes and ad hominems to try insulting other anons

>lost what no other dynasty lost

If the Qing were bad because they allowed a few foreigners in (and let's be honest, they kind of invited getting their shit kicked in based on how badly envoys and foreign merchants and foreigners in general were being treated) then isn't the Song markedly worse?

The Eight Nation Alliance never treated chinks as badly as their 同胞 Mongolian bros did.

I'm honestly not sure what you are saying /pol/.

Also, using the word "chink" (or any ethnic slur) to describe Chinese people is a sign of butthurt and autism.

>a few foreigners

>Opium wars 1,2
>Sino-French wars
>Russian-Sino wars
>Boxer rebellion occupation
>Colonization of Shanghai, Port Arthur, North Manchuria, Mongolia, Xinjiang, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Xuzhou, Tibet
>occupation of far more coastal cities
>unequal treaties
>50% of budget sent to pay for war treaties
>Opium pumped in by brits for $500 billion in Chinese silver 1750-1900
>Expulsion of Chinese in Indochina, Japan, Korea

A few foreigners.

Every single bad thing the PROC done all the other bad dynasties done as well including the Qing and the ROC

>caused the deaths of droves of citizens
>head oppressive policies against its neighbors
>corrupt officials
>rigid draconian laws
>mass and horrifying suppression

you realize that Tigers don't change their strips at least now everyone in the world are afraid of them now instead of in the past where it's just the east half of a continent.

>at least now everyone in the world are afraid of them now

I honestly don't get why Korea gets shat on so much. They're fucking harmless, why the hate?

Why does everyone hate India?

I could say that doesn't at all tell about whether they fear China (just whether or not they like them).

but I'm more intrigued with what India and Indonesia has against S.Korea

Have you taken a look at their last 9 presidents?

Why does Pakistan hate South Korea more than they hate India?

the countries that hate India are all Muslim counties

>Expulsion of Chinese in Indochina, Japan, Korea

Good, you had no business being there Chang. Look at what your CCP-backed organized crime-rackets have done to Laos and Cambodia. Not to mention every last ounce of shabu in the Philippines is made and dealt at the top by an ethnic chink.

>colonization

If the West wanted to colonize China they could have done it after the treacherous idiot Cixi got her ass kicked. Instead they asked her back to Beijing. Westerners weren't interested in "colonizing" you, you aren't aware of the distinction of the term. They wanted extraterritoriality because it allowed them to operate territories from which to trade that ran by THEIR RULES, which was why the conflict began in the first place (Qing would allow chinks to destroy foreign merchandise and kill foreigners with impunity).

>opium

Chinks did not give TWO SHITS about other chinks being addicted to opium. The KMT were compelling chink peasants to forcibly plant opium and sell it to other chinks over FIFTY YEARS after the opium war had ended.

>unequal treaties

Can you name a treaty where a side has won a war with overwhelming force and then signed an "equal treaty" with the defeated party? Did the Romans sign an "equal treaty" with Carthage after the Second Punic War?

It makes me think the term "unequal treaty" is a propaganda term...

Back to /r/asianamerican or /r/asianmasculinity with you.

chink
come on you asians are better than this, don't become an sjw fag

>It makes me think the term "unequal treaty" is a propaganda term...

It is.

The English literature available on China's so called century of humiliation is atrocious. It's so one-sided the Chinese themselves would be proud of it as a propaganda exercise.

it not hate but more of general disgust

There's not one ostensibly anti-China multilateral alliance.

Furthermore, China has a number of friends and allies. Pakistan, Laos, Cambodia, Malaysia, Russia, parts of Latin Americs/Africa

It's way too simple to just claim everyone fears China now. There's no real evidence of this and you provided none.

They've had tourists visit it and get raped.

A number of Pakistanis are of Indian-origin.

Furthermore, surely some dumbfucks don't differentiate North and South Korea.

I think people are forgetting that Korean troops were literally worse than crazed Jap-tier when it came to rape/massacres 1900-1970's. Lots of Asians still remember that

Wew there's so much butthurt in this post

The original question, /pol/, is if Qing or PRC is worse for "China".

I'd say that OBJECTIVELY Qing was worse for China in the foreign policy field. If you are seriously arguing that the Century of Humiliation didn't happen, then you should kill yourself and save future anons the trouble of attempting to fix your retardation.

Ever consider that maybe I'm not Chinese, and just am tired of negative ethnic slurs?

Asian "Americans" do not belong in America.

Chinese diaspora need to go back to China.

>If you are seriously arguing that the Century of Humiliation didn't happen

It's a propaganda term. A dynasty got defeated, some turmoil followed and another one replaced it.

This is the nature of the history of China. It's just that modern telecommunications allowed chinks to indoctrinate other chinks.

then you should go back to >>tumblr

its hard to define, but whatever it is, the chinese lack it...

>tries to have a civil discussion on Chinese history
>/pol/ won't allow it because "muh commies"

I actually like the CCP and think they're fantastic and able administrators.

I just cannot fucking stand the absurdly one-sided narrative we get spoonfed on Chinese history circa 1800-1950 or so if you have any sort of interest in the subject and I don't like this face-saving mechanism overseas chinks have developed whereby they excuse all Chinese flaws by handwaving them away with the "cultural revolution" excuse without having to look deeper and realize these are deep, intrinsic problems with traditional chinese culture itself.

>Who fucked up China the most? The Qing Dynasty or People's Republic of China
>everyone pick PRC
>waaaaaa pol

>Who fucked up China the most? The Qing Dynasty or People's Republic of China
>everyone pick Qing
>waaaaaa chinks

fixed

>some turmoil followed

Lol

Not an argument faggot

>everyone picks PRC
1. No they did not.
2. They'd be wrong if so.

if you're triggered by racial slur thats where you belong

>Qing isolationism was too far reaching.

That began in early Ming, Qing merely continued it.

Yes. Some turmoil. In per capita terms hardly as bad as the collapse of the Tang dumbass.

to much
>t. reddit
>t. commies
here

doesn't really prove Qing's general failure wrong

even without solving the intrinsic problems they will probably go down in history as better for the simple virtue of not being gang-raped for a century (due to the nukes and not having a retarded isolation policy but it's still better).

Are you all fucking kidding me?

The threat question is who fucked up China the most, and none of you have said the UK?

China's decline started in the 18th century, due to overpopulation and subsequent famines, but Britain forcefully trading them Opium was the killer! Drug trafficking to weaken the oldest continuous nation state in world history for monetary and political gain is easily one of the most heinous crimes committed by colonists, let alone the greatest reason for China's decline.

When the Chinese government BANNED opium trade and consumption there, Britain declared war on China to force them to legalise it again! After Britain inevitably won, they established a huge diplomatic presence there and cuckolded one of the cradles of civilisation like it was some backwater in Africa.

Forget the Dresden bombing, the deliberate weakening of Imperial China through aggressive opium trafficking is the worst example of the actions of the eternal Anglo I can think of.

White Anglo-Saxon "Americans" do not belong in America.

Anglo puritans need to go back to Albion.

We both know, as non-anglos, that this will just lead to you chinks moving in and taking over.

You don't give a shit about minorities - as the Austronesians on Taiwan can quite well attest.

>muh opium wars
The only thing the British are guilty of is selling the Chinese a luxury good at bargain basement prices, allowing the Chinese masses access to a product that was formerly the exclusive province of the wealthy.

The modern conception of the Opium wars is a product of leftist agitprop and Chinese trying to distract from the fact they have always been a nation of junkies.

It's a thankless endeavor, but I'm glad people like you exist that are willing to correct autism like this desu

Why are you putting Americans in quotation marks? It's a name based on an Italian man.

Not to mention the cunts had been happy to export to Southeast Asia for centuries, and are presently flooding Southeast Asia with heroin through their CCP-backed triad operations in plays like the Philippines.

On the other hand, no dynasty has managed to destroy every single Chinese tradition the way the CCP did, or make Chinese society completely dependent on itself.

The Qings, Mings, even the Mongols, they somehow respected Chinese traditional self-organization at the village and clan level, the Communists infiltrated everything, subverted everything, they have a totalitarian control over Chinese society that hasn't been achieved by any other political institution anywhere in the world. If they wanted to restart the Cultural Revolution tomorrow, they could do it, if they wanted to restart those "Anti-Rightist" campaigns of the 1950s tomorrow and kill those capitalists they have let sprout since the 1980s, they could.

Previous Chinese dynasties never had that power.

I chalk that up to better technology

which is an unfair advantage but still a point for them when comparing them to the Qing

>If they wanted to restart the Cultural Revolution tomorrow, they could do it
Doubt it, considering that most of the country sees it as a mistake and the youth of today aren't the Maoist perma-revolutionary sheeple that the youth back then were.

>if they wanted to restart those "Anti-Rightist" campaigns of the 1950s tomorrow and kill those capitalists they have let sprout since the 1980s, they could.
It would also trash the economy and possibly be the one thing that creates the miraculous conditions under which somehow, magically, the ROC takes back control of the mainland.

>Doubt it, considering that most of the country sees it as a mistake and the youth of today aren't the Maoist perma-revolutionary sheeple that the youth back then were.

I think you're wrong. Not only they are still perfect cannon fodder for revolutionary politics, but the CCP has enough of an apparatus to change the way people's think very fast. Just look how Falun Gong went from popular in the 1990s to hated by everyone a few years later, thanks to the party's campaign. The 610 Office can be used to anything.

It's not like Bo Xilai wasn't incredibly popular while reviving Maoist aesthetics either. Western liberals believe that if the CCP current model fails, it will be substituted by liberal democracy. Chances are higher that Maoism will return, because Maoism is still the only way Chinese people recognize opposition politics.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_culture_movement

>Mao didn't commit genocide
really makes me (((think)))

The qing had a moment where they could have corrected the problems of the previous ming administration, but instead fell back on being a smellier ming dynasty.
Mao actually changed the country, in a way that is turning out to have been for the better.

>The Qings, Mings, even the Mongols, they somehow respected Chinese traditional self-organization at the village and clan level
>implying this is a good thing

To make a country, you gotta crack a few peasants.

Go to bed, Mao

The only positive thing Mao did for the country was end the warlordism, which is something the KMT may or may not have been able to do if they had won the civil war. Everything else from the Hundred Flowers campaign to the Great Leap Forward to the Cultural Revolution was just one long series of fuckups.

They KMT may or may not have done it, given time they probably could have, yes. But the question is not "would the KMT have been better?" It is whether or not the PRC or the Qing were worse.
I mean you're right, it was fuckup after fuckup, but their fuckups aren't worth centuries, at least so we can tell at this point in time.

>Who fucked up China the most?

Edgar Snow, Agnes Smedley, Brooks Atkinson and other Western communists who convinced the U.S. government that Chiang Kai-shek was a bad guy and that Mao Zedong wasn't really a communist, just an agrarian reformer.

I still don't know if Joseph Stilwell and George Marshall were just naive and dumb, or treasonous, for falling for it.

Why to people insist on defending Chiang Kai shek? It doesn't matter how much one likes the KMT in terms of its ideology or proposed policy or other such matter, the fact remains the guy was incompetent.

Taiwan turned out fine, though. How much of his problems in China were caused by incompetence, rather than by sabotage by everyone including his supposed allies?

Because a small island was about the limits of Chiang Kai Sheks ability to administer.
>rather than by sabotage by everyone including his supposed allies
It does not seem as though Mao had this problem, despite the CCP's early falling out with its supposed allies having been, well, quite catastrophic for it, from which Mao (along with a host of capable general and some alright foreign advisors) were able to recover from.
perhaps he and is subordinates had qualities that Chiang Kai Shek lacked.

>Taiwan turned out fine, though
Because relocating to Taiwan basically solved the KMT's warlord problem. Taiwan is also much smaller and easier to administer than mainland China.

this desu, people give Mao shit for his authoritarianism and purges and then forget that Chiang ran his own ironfisted military dictatorship in Taiwan that caused, among other things, the 228 incident.

>Taiwan turned out fine, though
All of the stuff that got them to turn out fine happened under his son Chiang Ching-kuo.

>gwern.net/docs/2013-anonymous-strategicconsequencesofchineseracism.pdf
This is already pretty funny just in the preview at the start.

>Qing China had a golden age consisting of an era of 3 good emperors.
>PRC China has no golden age yet.
Hmmm.

I came back to read this thread and I see you post this shit.

I have an utmost respect for the majority of the worlds cultures and hold the idea that ethnic groups hold the right to self determination. The Chinese hold one of the oldest histories in the world and have an immense amount of culture and history to back their nation as a world power.

The proto-revolution culture is CLEARLY superior to the post-revolution culture. Comparing the two is like comparing romantic art to "abstract art" respectively.

The proto-revolution Chinese culture is filled with flourish of art, poetry, architectural wonder, and a more real national identity. The post-revolution Chinese culture is empty shell, Mao forging absolute genocide of Chinese people and destroying the monarchies and abandoning old grand religions and philosphies of Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism. Architecture had gone to commie blocks rather than wonders of the old masterfully crafted forms.

Anyone who argues that Mao didn't affect China for the absolute worst is an imbecile and most likely a communist (can't trust them). Though they are a powerhouse what is a country without their people that identity of culture and history. Russia faced the same problems during the USSR but atleast they seem like they're recovering.

WE WUZ QINGZ