Give me a run down on Chinese history

>Chinese history began with Chinese contact with Europe

>strong, centralized empires
Even the "strong" empires of China weren't that centralized. The Qin were probably the most centralized and they couldn't keep their shit together either.

An ever-expanding blob of interconnected rural areas initially growing out of the Yellow and Yangtze River basins, ever larger states conquering their neighbors, growing bloated and collapsing horribly, and getting replaced by a newer, more grander dynasties, swinging from periods of centralization where the economy was dominated by powerful bureaucrats like generals and scholars, and periods of decentralization where the economy was dominated by competing warlords.

basically if the Roman empire never fell

it just stays there and becomes a nuisance to all involved

Eat dogs
Mongols
Manchus
Eat more dogs
Communism
Keep eating dogs

There you have it.

ching chong
obey emporer
respect famary
live good life

>live good life

This seems to be all Chinese people ever want. They are perhaps the least ambitious folk on the face of the Earth.

>be one of the largest territories in the world
>rule various areas with an iron fist
>chinatowns all over the world
>least ambitious

and Americans and Romans were the most humble

China starts as a civilization very early, a couple of milleniums before common era(there is no clear date). The Chinese civilization starts in north-central modern China. Xia dynasty was the first Han dynasty, it only spanned a very small fraction of what is China today, maybe less than a 10% of it.

Chinese during ancient times considered everyone around them barbarians. There were many other ethnic groups in modern China, apart from the Han Chinese. A lot of them are very obscure since they were conquered very early by the Han Chinese, so there is not a lot of information about them.

During the Warring States period, the small Han states that existed fought each other until a dynasty finally emerged victorious and conquered them, unifying the Han Chinese. It was the Qin dynasty in the 3th century BC. From the Qin dynasty onwards we can really speak about a 'Chinese Empire' because before that, they were really a bunch of petty kingdoms.

In south eastern China you had several other ethnic groups distinct from Han Chinese, who spoke different languages. For example Zhuang and Hui. They had their own kingdoms, but they were eventually conquered by the Han dynasties and incorporated in the Empire.

Chinese Empire didn't remain unified during all its history though. There are several periods during which it balkanized and was governed by several smaller dynasties. For example the Three Kingdoms era in 3th century CE, or the Northern and Southern dynasty period.

In 1209 China was invaded by the Mongols. At the time it was divided in the Jin dynasty in the north, the Song in the south, and West Xia in the West. Mongols conquered all of China, and created a new dynasty of ethnic Mongols that governed an unified China again(Yuan dynasty)

The ethnic Chinese rebelled against the Mongol upper class and deposed them in the 14th century, creating the Ming dynasty, which would be the last Han dynasty.

Continues.

Ming dynasty is famous because they also rebuilt the old Great Wall, so they would not get invaded by the Mongols anymore.

Anyways, they were invaded by Manchus(who lived in modern north eastern China and the area of Vladivostok in modern Russia). The Manchus defeated the Ming in 17th century and created a new dynasty, the Qing dynasty.

The Qing dynasty settled in Beijing, which became the capital of China(Beijing literally means Northern Capital). The other important historical capital of China had been Nanjing(literally Southern Capital).

Qing dynasty expanded a lot westwards, conquering modern Western China(Xinjiang and Outter Mongolia). The area was inhabited by Central Asian peoples, some of them were Muslim. The Qing even genocided a great amount of them.

Qing dynasty followed Ming policies of isolationism. They didn't want to have contact with Western powers, and instead focused on having a lot of tributary states, such as Joseon Korea, Tibet, Dai Viet, etc.

Because of this, China started to lag behind technologically. Also the Qing dynasty, following Manchu military traditions, gave great importance to cavalry. This love of cavalry was detrmental for gun research, so Qing used very primitive guns even until the 19th century.

In 19th century they had a series of wars with Western powers, particularly UK and were forced to give land for the creation of Western trade posts. Examples of this are Hong Kong and Macao, although Russia and Germany also had their own treaty ports.

Other important events in the 19th century were the massive Taiping rebellion, which destabilized the Qing government, and the Boxer rebellions against Boxer influences early 20th century.

By the second decade of the 20th century the Qing dynasty was overthrown, and a military dictatorship(Beiyang) was established. It didn't last long though, since the Generals had so much power that they eventually created their own states(Called cliques) and fought against each other

During the Warlord Era one side emerged victorious in 1928. General Chaing Kai Shek proclamed himself president of the Republic of China, which would be governed by the Kuomintang.

Communists raised against the government of the Kuomintang, and a civil war started again. It was interrupted by the Japanese invasion of China. Both the Communists and the KMT fought together against the Japanese. When they were finally defeated by the Allies, the Civil War resumed.

In 1949, finally the Communists emerged victorious under the command of Mao Zedong. The governement of Kai Shek fled to the island of Formosa(Taiwan), and continental China become under Communist rule. Which still is up to this day.

2 of China's greatest dynasties (Han & Ming) were founded by peasants. I always found that to be awesome.

I wonder why ancient China peasants can be emperors whereas in the rest of the world they have to at least be the equivalent of middle class?

was there any other peasants in history that founded a state/dynasty? (besides Hideyoshi though even he was barred due to his peasant background)

To make big people, kill small people. To make small people, stop feeding them.

>get conquered by Mongolia
makes mongolia a part of the country
>get conquered by manchus
completely assimilates the manchus make manchuria a part of the country
>gets colonized by great britain
begins to colonize canada and australia.
The Eternal Han never stops

>I wonder why ancient China peasants can be emperors whereas in the rest of the world they have to at least be the equivalent of middle class?
Mandate of Heaven; the Chinese version of divine right of kings. Any peasant who was successful in reaching his way to the top and becoming emperor must've been blessed by heaven, thus it was accepted. It helps that both peasants-turned-emperors laid the foundations for their successors to follow in administration.

>was there any other peasants in history that founded a state/dynasty? (besides Hideyoshi though even he was barred due to his peasant background)
Well technically, you could argue way back in history that every founder of a state or dynasty was a peasant. Especially in ancient times and the early Middle Ages.

I know of only 2 medieval peasants off the top of my head: Basil I of the Macedonian dynasty. He was a peasant that became Byzantine Emperor. Ivaylo was a farmer-turned-rebel who won battles against the Mongols and became Bulgarian Emperor. I know there was a Roman Emperor or 2 that had humble origins but can't remember them.

I would read a novel that told the stories of an anthropomorphized Eternal Han and Eternal Anglo, over the millennia.

In the final third of the book they finally meet and the showdown begins.

oh jesus christ I just accidentally described a fan spinoff of Hetalia, god fucking dammit

fuckers are basically the Borg

The Persians and their civilization do the same thing. The Arabs and the later Turkic and Mongolic peoples absorbed Persian elements whole-heartedly.

...

yeah but Persia usually never resurfaces until their conquerors are gone.

China's conquerors take over their shit and then becomes China anyway

>Roman emperors with humble origins
Vespasian was from a plebian family, so he works. Not sure who else would qualify.

>communist
>china

They didn't kill anywhere close to half their population. Where did you hear that?

>jumping from Qin to the fucking Mongols

Jesus H Christ

You skipped about 1500 years there

>2 of China's greatest dynasties (Han & Ming) were founded by peasants. I always found that to be awesome.

Lol they were worse than peasants.

Liu Bang was a wanted fugitive.

Zhu Yuanzhang buried his entire family after a Yuan Period famine killed most of his villagem8s and subsequently became a hobo.

How is it that the Roman Empire did not have the capacity of the Chinese Empire to get to recover from balkanization or foreign invasion?

They tried.

Way too many threats I suppose. By the time JUSTinian was reconquering italy, he was juggling the Persians, Eastern Nomadic Barbarian hordes, internal issues, etc.

Well nothing really earthshattering happened in between besides the Three Kingdoms and the Northern and Southern Dynasties.

恭喜你,你可以使用谷歌翻譯

Qin died from trying to be edgy. Made being late punishable by death, then gave impossible orders to the heads of armies.

I only eat the finest 香肉 with my qt 4/10 girlfriend my god man

Only han nationalists think the Ming were great. In reality they were retrograde fanatics who contributed to converse stagnation during the after of discovery. All true sinophiles know the Song were the og dynasty.

Qin couldn't keep their shit together because Legalism is unironically the most Lawful Evil philosophy ever to be used to attempt to govern a state.

centralized by ancient/medieval standards

>Heaven brings forth innumerable things to nurture man.
>Man has nothing good with which to recompense Heaven.
>Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill.

1. Geography. The Roman Empire was built one mountainous peninsulas surrounding a large sea. It was very hard to reconquer. Meanwhile the core chinese lands were situated in the north china plains and sichuan basin. This allowed any invading force to quickly consolidate it's chinese holdings.

2. Foreign Invasion. The Romans had multiple invaders from multiple fronts. Arabs, Germans, Slavs, and Persians. They could take chunks of the empire and defend them pretty easily. China only had nomadic invaders from the steppes (Mongols, Manchus, Jurchens, and the Wu Hu). However when they did invade and conquer China, they would normally just assimilate to Han culture.

forgot pic

>Romans had multiple invaders from multiple fronts.
Additionally the barbarians that Rome dealt with were agrarian communities settling on Roman lands to farm, whereas the barbarians the Chinese dealt with were nomadic horsefuckers who didn't really take land so much as they stole shit and rode off.

The southern and southeastern parts look a lot more defensible, also that big population cluster right in the middle of the mountains.

jokes on you I use pleco

>The southern and southeastern parts look a lot more defensible

yes, this is how the Song held out against the Northern Jin until the Mongols cut through both of them. Luckily China never had any noteworthy invaders come from the south. This is why most Chinese capitals were situated along the northern perimeter of the North China Plain. The remoteness of the south also contributed to the diverse chinese langauges found there.

>that big population cluster right in the middle of the mountains.

That's sichuan, it's a lot less defensible when you realize it's a basin and once an invading force enters the valley, it's pretty much game over. They also had their unique language until Zhang Xianzhong decided to revolt and depopulate the region. The Qing then repopulated it with Mandarin speaking chinese from northern provinces.

From a US perspective I guess

JRPG shit

>Well nothing really earthshattering happened in between besides some of the most defining moments of Chinese history.

Still no. Whoever was emperor had de facto control over the provinces, but very rarely was actual control had. Often control was limited to a handful of provinces and the other provinces were only nominally under imperial control.

Have you ever heard the saying "the mountains are high and the emperor is far"?

>Everywhere is mountains besides a bit of China and a bit of India
Well fuck no wonder those were the only two powers worth anything in the region for thousands of years. Nobody else could walk for more than a couple of days before running into yet another mountain.

China has the longest continuous history of any country in the world—3,500 years of written history. Chinese people, even elementary school students, can read and understand so many poems that were written 2000 years ago. The grammar and the meaning of the words have not changed.

Imagine a culture where people still use phrases making reference to the old capital city from 300 BC. That's China.

For a fun intro to China's interesting past I recommend the film: King of Masks (1996) its popular enough to torrent and its realistic.

Mandate of Heaven has only one fault, and it's a pretty damming one at that.
>Mandate offers religious justification when one ruler and their dynasty are overthrown by another
>basically it suggests the old dynasty has subverted from its original purpose and so God has punished them by placing his favor onto the new dynasty
>this subdues any counter revolution because it goes against God's plan because the general populace believes this new dynasty has divine favor
This is more or less a constant throughout China's imperial history, and remained as such because it was a religious policy bound in law and not one strictly tied to one particular faith, as China has flip flopped between Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism. The fault of the mandate occurs when a revolution fails and the previous dynasty remains/reclaims power, such as what happened with both the Han and Tang Dynasties. It also led to century periods of civil war because no dynasty maintained power for long enough in order to warrant legitimate divine favor.

>as China has flip flopped between Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism. With varying degrees of Legalism of course. We're in a period right now of strong Legalist bent.

Until the commies decide culture is a bad thing that should be destroyed, huh

>remained as such because it was a religious policy bound in law
Mandate of Heaven is less of a law and more of a folk belief. A very powerful one. It is also not quite religious as various religions converged in the idea that Heaven/God/Allah/Whatever can withdraw favor from the ruler.

It's not written in any Chinese law books that "it's ok to rebel if the government sucks coz you know, heaven has withdrawn its favor from that dynasty."

Legalism (and if I'm honest, Confucianism) were more a less a constant even if the main religion at the time was something else. Sort of how Christian democracy remains the basis for most European law even in very secular countries like Sweden and Norway.

>Le culture can be destroyed overnight.
Yes, I will tell this to idiots who believe in Tiger Penis Magic, Feng Shui, and the whole of Chinesedom celebrating the Chink New Year as opposed to the Gregorian one.

>It's not written in any Chinese law books that "it's ok to rebel if the government sucks coz you know, heaven has withdrawn its favor from that dynasty."
I know it was more folk faith driven than anything that was written down, and I well aware of how religious native convergence/Pentecostalism works.

I just didn't know how to word it properly, so I just said it was the divine right of a singular god. I admit when it comes to Chinese folk religions, I'm not very well read. I only know of Sun Wukong and even then, he is more of a literacy character more than a worshiped god.

*Autistic screeching*
Theres your rundown.

>Rothschilds bow to Qin Shi Huang
>In contact with mongols
>Possess psychic-like abilities
>control with an iron but fair fist
>own castles & banks in all of Asia
>direct descendant of all the ancient mandate of heaven
>Will bankroll the first cities on Mars (Qinjing will be be the first city)
>own 99% of DNA editing research facilities on Earth
>first designer babies will in all likelihood be Qin babies
>said to have 215+ IQ, such intelligence on Earth has only existed deep in CHINESE monasteries & Area 51
>ancient Han scriptures tell of an Emperor who will descend upon Earth and will bring an era of enlightenment and unprecedented technological progress with him
>owns nanobot R&D labs around the world
>you likely have Qindabots inside you right now
>the Qin is in regular communication with Shen and Yin, forwarding the word of the mandate of heaven to the Orthodox church. Who do you think set up the meeting between the pope & the Orthodox high command (First meeting between the two organisations in over 1000 years) and arranged the Orthodox leader’s first trip to Manchuria in history literally a few days later to the Qin bunker in Taiwan land?
>he learned fluent mandarin in under a week
>nation states entrust their mercury reserves with the Emperor. There’s no mercury n Ft. Knox, only Ft. Qin Shi Huang
>the emperor is about 220 decades old, from the space-time reference point of the base human currently accepted by our society
>in reality, he is a timeless beings existing in all points of time and space from the big bang to the end of the universe. We don’t know his ultimate plans yet. We hope he is actually mandate of heaven

An almost autistic obsession with writing things down, keeping records, she bureaucracy that stretches back to 1500BC.

Underrated post

>and subsequently became a hobo.

There's nothing wrong with being a hobo, I mean Woody Guthrie was a hobo and look what he accomplished

Better version
>Barbarians bow to Celestial Emperor
>In contact with Heaven's Will
>Possess sage-like abilities
>controls All Under Heaven with an iron but fair fist
>owns tributaries and concubines in all of Asia
>direct descendants of the Yellow Emperor
>Will bankroll the first cities on Mars (New Vancouver will be be the first city)
>own 99% of Internet censorship research facilities on Earth
>first designer babies will in all likelihood be male babies
>said to have average 105+ IQ, such intelligence on Earth has only existed deep in East Asia and Canada
>ancient Zhou scriptures tell of an Emperor who will descend upon Earth and will bring an era of Supreme Peace and unprecedented cultural progress with him
>owns culturebot assimilation labs around the world
>you likely have Hanbots inside you right now
>the Dynasty is in regular communication with Shen and Yin, forwarding the word of the mandate of heaven to the Tibetan monasteries. Who do you think set up the selection between Gedhun Choekyi Nyima & Gyaincain Norbu (First meeting between the two candidates in over one reincarnation) and arranged the Panchen Lama's first disappearance to Buddhism in history literally a few days later to a re-education camp in the Middle Kingdom?
>learned fluent guwen in under a week
>tributaries entrust their mercury reserves with the Emperor. There’s no mercury in Ft. Knox, only Ft. Qin Shi Huang
>the empire is about 500 decades old, from the space-time reference point of the base human currently accepted by our society
>in reality, it is a timeless being existing in all points of time and space from the big bang to the end of the universe. We don’t know its ultimate plans yet. We hope there actually is a mandate of heaven.

ahhahahahah

Wasn't justinian in some poor family before he became emperor? Many dynasties in the east started from commoners

"When you get conquered by your enemies, you win"
-Zhou Tien Thu Dhou, founder of the Li Fei dynasty

top kek

Yes. He helped his illiterate uncle become emperor and then inherited the throne. His dad was a farmer or some shit.

A Bronze Age civilization that survived to the modern day thanks to being on the other side of the continent from the Sea People that caused the Bronze Age Collapse over in the Near East. About as civilized as you would expect from a Bronze Age empire.

Is there a joke I'm not understanding?

>when a plague caused by a siege half way round the world prevents the second coming of the Roman Empire
wowzers

>The grammar and the meaning of the words have not changed.

i love it when people talk about something they know nothing about.

Allow me to explain. First I quoted the wrong post, was supposed to quote this one The quote is derived from a Justin Trudeau meme, the name sort of sounds like Chinese. Li Fei also sounds like Leaf, the implication is that the Prime-Minister of Canada had a plan to annex China and become Emperor, by flooding Canada with Chinese, alluding to Chinese history with its neighbours.

What's wrong with Legalism?

Also, what exactly is legalism? I haven't read anything about it, I just have heard it exists. What impact did it have on classical China if any?

Millions of deaths every 200-300 years. It was usually civil wars/rebellions but sometimes famine, invasion (mongols, japs) or genocide (moa ze dong).

Legalism was one of the six classical schools of thought in Chinese philosophy that arose out of the chaos of the collapse of the Zhou Dynasty and the Warring States period.

Legalism holds that human beings are essentially evil because they are essentially selfish. No one, unless forced to, willingly sacrifices for another. Humans should not be expected to behave morally. Rather, a viable sociopolitical system should allow individuals to pursue their selfish interests exclusively in ways that benefit the state. Therefore, a ruler had to create a body of laws and a rigidly prescribed system of rewards and punishments which would direct people's natural inclination of self-interest toward the good of the state.

The morality of the law was of no concern as morals played no part in people's decsion-making process. In Legalism, laws direct one's natural inclinations for the betterment of the state. The person who wants to kill their neighbor is prevented by law but would be allowed to kill others by joining the army. In this way the person's selfish desires are gratified and the state benefits by having a dedicated soldier.

Since it was a given that people would act on their self-interest, and always in the worst way, the penalties for breaking the law were extremely harsh and included heavy fines, conscription in the army, years of hard labor, and death.

LIn short, social harmony cannot be assured through the recognition by the people of virtue and morals, but only through strong state control, absolute obedience to authority, and harsh punishments directing of all human activity toward the goal of increasing the power of the ruler and the state.

Ultimately Legalism sought to bring peace to the war-torn civilization of the Warring States period. The belief was that peace required a strong state and military hegemony, supported by strict standards of behavior, suppression of "parasitic" ideas and activities such as ritual, morality, laziness, partiality, and frivolous music; a rigid militaristic culture.

The ruler's place in the Legalist system was to be the supreme enforcer of the Law. Legalism urges the ruler to reign for the sake of the state, not any notion of "the people". He has no obligation to harm the interests of the state for the sake of the people. There was no room for individual liberty or freedom, individuals only exist in the context of relationships or collective groups. These were to serve the state foremost.

Ultimately, this autistic obsession with totalitarian control, rigid laws with ludicrously harsh punishments, and the treatment of the individual as a cog in the machine of the state with an all-powerful state as the end goal was not sustainable.

Legalism was the philosophy through which the first emperor of the Qin Dynasty, China's first emperor, attempted to rule. In the end he oppressive force of legalism created a dissatisfied and rebellious people, and the Qin Dynasty lasted all of 15 years before it was overthrown and replaced by the Han Dynasty, which sought to govern according to the principles of Confucianism instead.

Confucianism's stance directly opposes Legalism. Under Confucianism, law without morality is a weak basis for society. Confucius taught the importance of four virtues: sincerity, benevolence, filial piety and propriety. If the people are virtuous and act in accordance with the natural order of Heaven, there is no need for stringent laws for society to function. The ruler is required to be virtuous so as to lead by example.

In practice, Chinese politics throughout the centuries have run on a spectrum between Confucianism and Legalism, unlike the West which runs from left to right.

As a TL;Dr, Ross Terrill writes that

>Chinese Legalism is as Western as Thomas Hobbes, as modern as Hu Jintao. It speaks the universal and timeless language of law and order. The past does not matter, state power is to be maximized, politics has nothing to do with morality, intellectual endeavour is suspect, violence is indispensable, and little is to be expected rom the rank and file except and appreciation of force.

He calls "Legalism" the "iron scaffolding of the Chinese Empire", but emphasizes the marriage between Legalism and Confucianism.

In the modern day, China is currently leaning strongly Legalist. But for thousands of years the state has been governed by a mixture of Confucianism and Legalism to varying degrees.

Even Han "Confucianism" was just Legalism lite dressed up as Confucianism because Qin Shi Huangdi had given Legalism a bad name.

>humans are corrupt greedy self interested animals, families enable this corrupt behavior
>therefore we must develop a rigid societal order and strict social code that punishes any law breakers severely enforced by a supreme ruler
>we must also abolish the family and draft as many people into the army and massive public works projects as possible
>if they don't want to fight or don't want to work we kill them
>if they show up late to work we kill them
>if they don't like the law we kill them
>glory to the empire which will unite all under heaven

That's legalism.

WELCOME TO THE RICE FIELDS MOTHERFUCKER

Ey, glad to see some of my ideas around.

OFFICIAL DYNASTIES RANKING

1. Tang China
2. Southern Song Dynasty
3. Early Han China
4. Ming China
5. Modern China
6. Qin Dynasty
7. Warring States China
8. Song Dynasty
9. Three Kingdoms China
10. Sui China
11. Jin Dynasty
12. Zhou Dynasty
13. Early Qing China
14. Yuan Dynasty
15. Northern and Southern Dynasties China
16. Republican China
17. Late Han China
..
99. Maoist China
....
999999. Late Qing China

Thanks for being easy to copy and paste from after I got tired of writing

If anyone wants, I can post an essay about Legalism I did for a class.

Seems good, though personally I would place number 3 above number 2.

No problem senpai

The invention of Paper Money, Printing Press, Gunpowder, Compass and advanced Metallurgy all speak for the Song.

And in contrast to the main Song, the Southern Song had actually a competent army and a standing navy. They held out against the mongol onslaught for decades when everyone else just collapsed.
So this all made them a pretty clear Nr. 2

>I know there was a Roman Emperor or 2 that had humble origins

phocas?