What is Veeky Forums opinion on Oswald Spengler? Is his theory of the lifespan of civilization correct?

Yeah I love how he just btfo of liberalism/Nazism/ and Marxism all at once.

Interesting also was that communism appealed to the Russian because their civilization ideal is based on the horizontal so the equalization of everything was appealing to this perspective. But it was different to the west who's ideal is infinite space. Under this context it explains why the west won the space race as we are more obsessed with outward space and understand this perspective better.

Possibly also why communism in the west is just this nihilistic self-hatred, wasn't also his prediction that western socialists would abandon their white proletarians in favor for the colored revolution? Prophetic simply prophetic.

Whereas communism in Russia was very masculine and full of passion and vitality.

>He pictured Nazism as the German nation's cowardly escape from reality by regressing to a lower mental age:

>Romanticism is no sign of powerful instincts, but, on the contrary, of a weak, self-detesting intellect. They are all infantile, these Romantics; men who remain children too long (or for ever), without the strength to criticize themselves, but with perpetual inhibitions arising from the obscure awareness of their own personal weakness; who are impelled by the morbid idea of reforming society, which is to them too masculine, too healthy, too sober. .

>And these same everlasting "Youths" are with us again today, immature, destitute of the slightest experience or even real desire for experience, but writing and talking away about politics, fired by uniforms and badges, and clinging fantastically to some theory or other. There is a social Romanticism of sentimental Communists, a political Romanticism which regards election figures and the intoxication of mass-meeting oratory as deeds, and an economic Romanticism which trickles out from behind the gold theories of sick minds that know nothing of the inner forms of modern economics. They can only feel in the mass, where they can deaden the dull sense of their weakness by multiplying themselves. And this they call the Overcoming of Individualism.[35] ..

>All young sects are at bottom hostile to State and property, class and rank, and are attracted to universal equality.[36]
damn

His prediction was also that Russians would eventually abandon communism even without a war because it's fundamentally western and non-Russian. And that's exactly what happened.

Spengler is a really fucking bitter pill to swallow. I've /pol/acks who've read him autistically screech about defeatism and nihilism, even though he actually advocated defending our civilization. He just correctly recognizes that in the end it won't amount to much. I think there is something noble in fighting the fight even when you know you're going to perish.

Perhaps you should stop spending so much time in the echo chamber of miserable self-loathing cunts known as Veeky Forums and the internet at large, and go out and see all the wonderful works of art and culture and meet the many fine people this "nihilistic and meaningless" world produces

If the west loses it's preeminence, it will not be destiny or philosophy that does it, it will be fucks like you losing your nerve, throwing up your hands, and concluding it's all over. Stiffen your fucking spine.

Yes according to this theory what were seeing now is our culture transitioning from the abandoning democracy in favor for despotism and force.

Trumps election through using populism, anti-intellectualism, and personality instead of politics is a sign of the coming Caesarism. It will slowly get worse until a charismatic military men liquidate the intellectual and businesses classes in an orgy of violence and authoritarianism with their private armies, who will than turn on each other in a bid of supremacy.

I can only hope this will happen in my lifetime where I can see the post-modernist liberals and multiculturalists lined up and shot along with the globalist corporate CEO's, bankers, and kikes. It will be sad that this goes hand in hand with anti-intellectualism but this is natural as the dominance of intellectualism destroyed the culture and causes this reaction. But this is inevitable death throes of western civilization as it cannibalizes itself. There is no going back to the balance between spirituality and intellectualism.
Yes simply amazing, modern day Nostradamus.
Yeah I really hate /pol/acks completely misunderstanding his works in favor of a self aggrandizing their world view with a simpleton interpretation. Videos on him are full of them cheering the coming age of Caesarism and a rebirth of the west and cringeworthy comments of hail trump "he's the Caesar" when he empirically isn't. He's just the one of the politicians who will push western though towards Caesarism. It also won't be a rebirth, but a violent death throe.

What he described is what exactly is happening to western art. It has exhausted all avenues of our cultural ideal of infinite space. Innovation is impossible, everything is simply static imitations of past works, or nihilistic meaningless replacing our culture which modern architecture and post-modern art is a perfect example of.

Why are normies allowed on this board? You can post these shitty comments all over reddit and Facebook, why come shit up this place?

>russia abandoned communism without a war because it's fundamentally western and non-russian
>he thinks this is correct
haha

It unironically is. You can see the current shifting already under Stalin (so after Spengler released his book) who was basically an Ivan the Terrible like figure and not an actual communist like Lenin or Trotsky. He re-instituted many tzarist institutions, traditions and military orders, banned degenerate art and in the 1930s returned to the traditional Russian antisemitism.

I was into him for like a week when I found some skewed youtube videos about him and when I was going though a lite-nazi phase in high school. Then I realized that he's not worth listening to. The example about the soldier at Vesuvius still makes me feel though

>You can see the current shifting already under Stalin
fuck off grandpa

Learn English language.

>

>assessing Spengler based on youtube videos in your teens and concluding he's not worth your time
You're American aren't you?

>the decline of the west
>published in 1918

Even in the apex of our youth, we can't stop ourselves from worrying about the time of our death

It was the apex of political nationalism, but hardly the apex of western civilization which Spengler identified as occuring in the 18th century. From his talk on Goethe and Nietzsche and 19th century:

>It was Goethe’s good fortune to be born at the high noon of Western culture, at a time of rich and mature intellectuality which he himself eventually came to represent. He had only to become the epitome of his own time in order to achieve the disciplined grandeur implied by those who later called him the "Olympian." Nietzsche lived a century later, and in the meantime a great change had occurred, one which we are only now able to comprehend. It was his fate to come into the world after the Rococo period, and to stand amid the totally cultureless 1860’s and 1870’s. Consider the streets and houses he had to live in, the clothing fashions, furniture, and social mores he had to observe. Consider the way people moved about in social circles in his day, the way they thought, wrote, and felt. Goethe lived at a time filled with respect for form; Nietzsche longed desperately for forms that had been shattered and abandoned. Goethe needed only to affirm what he saw and experienced around him; Nietzsche had no recourse but to protest passionately against everything contemporary, if he was to rescue anything his forebears had bequeathed to him as a cultural heritage.

Reactionary, in deep debt to Nietzsche, who dug through history to find events that supported his desired conclusions.

It's easy to say "the west is dying", harder to actually put some effort into preserving it.

>but he said western decline was inevitable, so why should he!?

>amid the totally cultureless 1860’s and 1870’s
h-haha yeah those cultureless losers

>white people
>culture
Pick one.

He was fucking right

because some of us haven't given up on you user

also nice quads

>banned degenerate art
??

Look up stalinist art. No abstract faggotry and canned poop.

KYS

Neck yourself

Why does Spengler trigger both sides of the spectrum so much? Does the truth hurt that much?

Oswald Spengler? More like Oswald Spergler.

"Abstract faggotry" is pretty much the best Soviet art had created that wasn't suppressed by the regime. Also Stalin supported Bulgakov, which is somewhat abstract and not conforming to Socialist realism.

Or let me guess, your taste in art came from pathos-filled RPG?

Unironically yes, they can't admit to the truth. Optimism is cowardice as Spengler said.

Does Spangler sugest any solution to this?

Of course not, there is nothing to solve. This is simply how civilizations age and die. Like the stages of life, the west is simply entering the final stages of a civilizations life span.

Does your taste in art come from being an American subhuman?

>>but he said western decline was inevitable, so why should he!?
t. didn't read

Yes, it demonstrably is.

The only people I've seen disputing this online are aspies who never actually read him and just mindlessly spout low quality memes.

Lol in what world is 1918 the West's youth?

Yeah but the 18th century was already a kind of middle age. The apex of youthful vitality would have been the Gothic era.

>he correctly see the rise of Caesar as when things start to go to shit, rather than some civilizational rebirth.

You're unironically missing 100% of the point he was trying to make. The metaphorical Caesar isn't when things start going to shit, but rather indicative that things have already completely gone to shit on a fundamental cultural/governmental level. Caesar doesn't just appear in a vacuum, you need strong forces to both create and enable such a figure. It's a symptom, not a cause.

I am not a Russian but your understanding of their culture and pathos is simply wrong.

If there is a single civilization that is based around infinite space, it is Russian. For it was born in the vast cold steppes and cold forests. Russian pathos is that of enormous melancholy, yearning for purpose in infinite space. Western civilization ideal is precisely horizontal, for wealth and prosperity is the heart of Westerner pathos. Searching for wealth, finding good ways to distribute it.

Not him but what you described is horizontal, vast flat monotonous plains.

In contrast, the Western soul is three dimensional space, stretching into infinite heights, like oak forests or Gothic cathedrals.

"Declinism" (yeah there's a word for it) isn't really falsifiable and relies too much on emotive or quasi-religious theory. Also, Spengler had a lot of weird attitudes like thinking the peaceful resolution of the Moroccan crisis was a sign of the "emasculation" of Germany

How do you explain his predictions coming true?

>Under this context it explains why the west won the space race as we are more obsessed with outward space and understand this perspective better.
one of the dumbest things i've ever read

How do you explain my farts?

Oswald Spengler? More like Oswald Sperger.

That was indeed a dumb post, but it's true that the Western soul has a propensity for exploration that others don't.

Reddit

lol

Is that where you're from? Well, this is Veeky Forums, as you can see it's quite different from Reddit.

I disagree, those vast and empty plains and steppes are exactly that, empty. Russian pathos is to look at every direction, including the depths of earth and infinite space up. From there comes their deep seated melancholy. Also, Russian thought, art, culture is simply a another child of Greek civilization, from which all of West came. I suppose in the end this talk is without merit, for Russians are part of Western civilization. We could talk about other ones though.

You're not funny, you have nothing to contribute, I agree with that user. Go back where you came from.

Not him, I'm but the problem with Spengler is that he paints in strokes that are far too broad, yet much too specific to make an accurate model for civilization. He hit the nail on the head for Rome and 20th Century Europe, but both of those things were exceptions, rather than the rule.

For example, the Chinks haven't been able to sustain a stable society/government for longer than 200 years at best throughout their millennia-long history, yet it wasn't until the Commies that their culture/society underwent noticable change.

Spengler is right in that current Western Civilization is fragile, and may very well be broken beyond repair, but that's due to extraordinary circumstances (2 World Wars, Nuclear arms race) rather than inevitability.

Fuck off already you don't contribute to the thread other than with your cringeworthy dad jokes. Nobody will miss you.

Sorry but this is pure bullshit, Russians won the space race, Yuri Gagarin? First human being in history to reach space was a Russian, not American.

Go back to Plebbit.

No, Russia is heavily Westernised and highly confused about its own identity, but it clearly has its own soul trying to emerge, which is the source of its internal conflict and its hostility towards the West.

The West and ancient Greece are two completely different civilisations btw, they're practically opposites in fact.

Yes that's why I just said that post was dumb.

I don't see how what you said about China in any way contradicts Spengler.

>yeah man russians lost the space race because they live near vast emptiness
>contributing

Wonderful works of art like menstrual blood paintings or empty canvases?

>The West and ancient Greece are two completely different civilisations bte

tfw user single-handedly debunks the renaissance with a single, unsourced post.

Woah

Sorry but you are not making any sense. Russian identity was always part of wider Western identity. Idiotic Western European politics pushed for Oriental Russia meme for realpolitik reasons. Iberian peninsula is then also heavily Westernised and highly confused about its own identity by that logic.

How the fuck are West and ancient Greece opposite to each other? Our culture, our very pathos was birthed in ancient Greece.

Is that the alpha and omega of your understanding of history? Larping Italians from 600 years ago with no historical knowledge?

Spengler claims that every civilization is destined for destruction after X criteria have been met. China (I'm using it for simplicity's sake) went through multiple Spengler cycles with no appreciable changes to its civilization. Sure there was widespread famine and death on multiple occasions, but Nu-China didn't surface until post-WW2. Fuck's sake, it still had Bronze-Age tier Warlords in 1945.

Spengler makes a good critique of Democratic Western Civilization, but applying that critique to civilization as a whole is autism.

>This damage control

Renaissance were resentful Italians cosplaying as ancient Greeks.

>THERE'S NO SIMILARITIES BETWEEN ANCIENT GREEK CIVILIZATION AND THE WEST
>But user, the renaissance and its political thought was heavily influenced by ancient Greek culture
>ITALIAN COSPLAYERS REEEEEEEEEEEEE

Kill you are self

Just admit you were wrong and we will move on.

No, Spengler adresses the renaissance point quite extensively and concludes it was just one giant enamoration with the foreign Apollonian civilization that started out during late Gothic. It's not something we made up on the spot in this thread.

No that user, but please explain then. If Western civilization is not a Apollonian civilization, then what is it?

Faustian.

>it was just one giant enamoration with the foreign Apollonian civilization that started out during late Gothic. It's not something we made up on the spot in this thread.

This doesn't help justify your position that Ancient Greece had no influence on Western Civilization.

Fuck's sake. Weebshits will never fuck Rei or Asuka, but that doesn't mean they didn't shape irl discourse.

That wasn't my position.

And from where does this Faustian civilization comes from?

Franks, generally.

If anything Russia would be closer to the Orthodox Near East, which it was for most of history a periphery of. There has been since then a long Westernisation attempt by Russian elites, starting most notably with Peter the Great, but this was always in stark contradiction with the Russian soul, as Russian authors like Dostoevski realised. This is the reason for the massive civilisational gap between Westernised tsarist Russian elites, and the people of Russia who to them seemed like a frightening foreign Asiatic horde. Russia is no more Western than Roman Judea was Greco-Roman.

As for the West, it was born in medieval Catholic Western Europe, it has almost nothing in common with ancient Greece.

What are attributes of Russian soul?

What made Franks take such a view of world around them?

You didn't read Spengler.

Civilisations aren't destined for "destruction". Once they have completed their growth, they stagnate and harden into a certain shape and unite into a universal empire. They can remain in this state indefinitely. This is exactly what happened to China. It didn't go through several cycles, it completed its cycle over 2000 years ago.

In 50 years people will be clamoring for the culture we have now, where even latent fascists could say their piece without being lined up against the wall. Why do you value this in a culture, when if our current culture has learned this value, you wouldn't be with us here today talking this total nonsense? You do not value anything outside yourself, and you are a disgrace to white society.

>I was merely pretending

I think you're either confusing me with a different poster at best or outright shitposting at worst.

>They can remain in this state indefinitely. This is exactly what happened to China. It didn't go through several cycles, it completed its cycle over 2000 years ago.

A horizontal sense of infinity, a sense of the absolute and belief in the sameness of everything through time and space, and an extreme lack of individuality to the point of conceiving of the individual only as part of the community.

Can you stop spamming the thread with your "HELLO I'M A GIANT RETARD" posts? We get it.

Both tbqh. The original anons I was replying to were

>What made Franks take such a view of world around them?
Hard to say. Spengler speculates these things are tied to geography. In that sense, Western soul would be connected to the great oak forests that covered Northwestern Europe, of which Gothic cathedrals are reminiscent. And Spengler doesn't say this (probably because he wants to emphasise Germany over France), but I would say also the Atlantic Ocean. But this is all just speculation as Spengler himself says.

One thing he doesn't say but that seems clear to me however, is the impact that growing up amid the ruins of a dead ancient civilisation must have had in giving the Western soul both its obsession with time and history and its strong sense of humility.

You can stop being a triggered cunt any time now user. You were wrong on an anonymoos basket-weaving support group. It's okay.

Spengler is a idiot who has a fetish for generalization, like all of his followers.

Western art and culture is dead they say. This very statement proves that these people would never be able to find art anywhere in history of world. Get out, go to art galleries, to theatres. There is a lot of trash, yes. But there is a lot of sublime beautiful work being created in our modern age which would make great artists of history stop and admire.

Even in garbage disposal that is DeviantArt, over the years, I have found pieces that are bursting with beauty.

>there is a lot of sublime beautiful work being created in our modern age which would make great artists of history stop and admire.
Post one example of this.

>weatern beauty and art lives on through deviantart