IS CHRISTIANITY IDOLATRY?

>So you agree with all those statements.
No. I'm not a Christian. Can we get back on topic or is this just going to be a skit enacting every logical fallacy in the book?

>You could say that the icon, or the cross, or the temple, or the priest are all manifestations of God, so its okay to worship them.
you can't with christian theology.

>People do worship and pray to pictures and to priests, how is this not idolatry?
christians do not pray to priests, but some do to pictures/icons of saints. I think it's hard to argue this isn't idolatry, though this criticism would not apply to protestants. catholics will sometimes say however that they are not praying to the saint, they are basically meditating on the saint's life, deeds, etc (ignoring that canonization of a saint requires miracles to be attributed to the saint) so if we take them at their word then some catholics are not idolaters

How is "Oh please saint X, saint protector of sailors (but totally not God of he sea, that'd be pagan), please help my son return safely from his trip, please guide his ship, here's a coin for your picture" in any way meditating on a martyr's life?
Its praying to a minor god from a pantheon of gods, with the jewish God posing as Zeus.

>Can we get back on topic

We are on topic. If you agree with statements 1 to 4 in this post , from them follows that worshiping Jesus goes against God, and is by definition idolatery.

*Jesus exists as an entity that is a subset of God

But Jesus was a man of flesh and blood, and he was born, and he died.
Are you saying God has these qualities as well?

I agree with you with that specific prayer, but presumably the catholics who claim this are not saying these prayers

Its what in my experience people do, they pray to specific saints that are supposed to cover specific parts of life.
You can conduct an experiment, go to temples and observe what people do. You will probably come to the same conclusions.

again, you need to keep in mind christian theology when arguing against christianity. christian theology states that jesus is both fully human and fully God. I'm not saying this makes sense, but it is the belief you have to argue against. if you're going to argue against christian theology being illogical and convoluted is a better charge than idolatry

yes, they do generally. but I'm telling you what some, key word some, catholics claim. they could be a minority (very likely are), but they exist

>christian theology states that jesus is both fully human and fully God

But this statement was made specifically to do damage control due to the argument in this thread, and not all agree to it.
It doesn't come from the holy texts either, its made up because people saw a flaw and needed to correct it somehow.

this we can agree on

Saints and Mother prayers are really really weird to me but in the end when asked how they allow anyone but Jesus to be the intercessor while he himself said there's only one and it's him, those priests are usually 'we don't really preach to pray for them but we all respect them so deeply it just can't be helped. Also it's culture.". My loliporn is also culture, what an argument. durr

We're reaching levels of fedora I never even thought possible.

We're reaching levels of non-argumentation I never even thought possible.

Catholicism is not christianity

What's the point of arguing? This is just another """"enlightened"""" leftwing atheist manlet out of a single mother household that cherrypicks the bible saying "SEE, SEE? WE'RE MORE CHRISTIAN THAN YOU ARE YOU DUMB CHRISTARD"

We're reaching levels of non-argumentation I never even thought possible, again.

>This is just another """"enlightened"""" leftwing atheist manlet out of a single mother household that cherrypicks the bible saying "SEE, SEE? WE'RE MORE CHRISTIAN THAN YOU ARE YOU DUMB CHRISTARD"

Wow, look at all these NOT ARGUMENTS.

>If you agree with statements 1 to 4 in this post >3147896, from them follows that worshiping Jesus goes against God
fucking hell people are retarded. Christians believe Jesus is God. That's literally the entire point of Christianity.

Christianity is not idolatry.

Catholicism is idolatry.

It's important to distinguish between the two, as the one has murdered tens of millions of the other.

>Can anyone give good arguments against such a claim? I can't think of any.

That there is a real God, and real worshipers worship the real God in the Spirit, and not in the flesh.

It's not an argument; it's just the truth.

>Christians believe Jesus is God. That's literally the entire point of Christianity.

Any good christian would disagree with this statement.
God and Jesus are clearly different entities. I think most christians will argue Jesus is part of God, not that Jesus and God are the same.

none of these posts are arguments

Or the more obvious conclusion, that Jesus is God.

No Christian would disagree with the statement "Jesus is God".

Because then he wouldn't be a Christian, now, would he.

>Christians don't worship God, instead they worship an avatar of God, an idol.
An avatar is not idol, moron.

>I think most christians will argue Jesus is part of God, not that Jesus and God are the same.

"I and the Father are One."
"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."

I don't know any Christians who argue with Jesus about what Jesus says.

Aye, but neither is Jesus an avatar.

Christians are followers of the prophet Christ, like Mohammedans are followers of the prophet Mohamed.
And like Mohammedans (today "muslims" for political correctness), Christians should know that the prophet is not the God.
Thats why Arabs don't pray to Mohamed, they pray to God. Pretty simple stuff.

>"its not an idol!", the man said, and held strongly his wooden cross idol, praying to it

what part of the old testament and oral torah say that the mossiach was going to literally be God?

>prophet Christ

Jesus is God, and created the universe.

So, no.

>Jesus created the universe
>Jesus created Jesus

The part where Abraham told Isaac that God would provide Himself a Lamb for the slaughter.

Then, so you wouldn't miss it, a ram, and not a lamb, was caught in the thicket and sacrificed.

Oh, wait, you still missed it.

Maybe you also missed Job saying that God Himself must provide a mediator between God and Man, if anyone is to be able to bring a petition to God, and put one hand on God, and the other hand on Man.

Oh, wait, you missed that too.

Did you miss the inference where the messiah would die, and at the same time set upon an eternal throne? Yeah, you missed that too.

What about in the beginning, where God said that the messiah, the seed of the woman, would crush the devil's skull while the devil merely bruised the messiah's heel?

Guess you missed that one too.

Come to think of it, you missed all of the prophets, and Moses (Deut. 13) all promising that the messiah would do things that only God could do. Heal the blind, the lame, the mute, the deaf, the lepers, forgive sins.......

Yeah, you missed it all.

Jesus is not part of this universe, nor was He situated in this universe when He created this universe.

Muslims.

Not even once.

Jesus was a flesh and blood entity, he was clearly made of stuff, and he couldn't have created the stuff he himself was made of.

How exactly can Jews say that Jesus is an idol, when they also believe that there will be a Messiah?

I get that they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, but if it's true of Christianity, it will also be true of whatever Messiah the Jews would accept.

This is in the same tier as pointing to a cloud that looks like a bunny.

Jews are okay with a messiah, they aren't okay with worshiping the messiah instead of God.

God, who made the universe, who created DNA, could not manage to come down from heaven in the flesh, and live like a man, and die for the sins of mankind.

That could not happen.

Even though it did.

The Jews accusing christians of idolatry, that's a laugh.

Maybe if they didn't worship money so much I would take them more seriously.

Oh, yes, very vague. Abraham says that God will provide Himself a Lamb for the slaughter.

And Jesus, God, the Lamb of God, is given up to slaughter on Passover, Nisan 14, 32 AD.

yes, very bunny like.

No, no they are not. They killed their messiah, or at least they thought they did.

They wanted another Jude the Hammer, or a war king to rid them of their oppressors.

Jews, thy god is Mammon.

But the Messiah would be God, wouldn't he?

>god tells abraham that he will give him a lamb
>a ram magically appears in the bushes nearby
>but it was a ruse! he actually meant that 2000 years later he will send an artificial human to get executed
>because a ram is not a lamb, but a human is a lamb

And that could looks like a dragon!

I thought we were talking avatars?
Why are you bringing up crosses?

That's because, according to them, ..... there is no messiah yet to worship. logic is #mindblowing for retards

Its because even if there was a messiah, you are meant to worship God, not the messiah. Don't make an idol of the messiah.

So you're saying God isn't omnipotent?
Sounds pretty darn blasphemous to me M83.

Catholicism has always been the first and most populous sect of Christianity. To say it is not a type of Christianity is categorically false.

A "christian" is anyone who believes in the divinity of the man Jesus Christ. No other requirements exist based on the dictionary definition.

I see you also missed the part where Abraham saw the Day of the Lord, and was joyful about it.

Yes, you missed everything.

Because certainly the lambs that were slaughtered at the first Passover, the Exodus, and whose blood was smeared in a cross-like pattern on the doors of the Hebrews for the angel of death to pass over their houses and not kill the firstborn therein, that was all just a coincidence.

Nothing to do with Jesus, the Lamb of God, being slaughtered on Passover, having presented Himself blameless to the priests on Nisan 10, and slaughtered on Nisan 14.

Not a foreshadowing at all.

All just coincidence.

And when the messiah turns out to be God? What then?

In before Muhammadan uttering that bowing to polytheist piece of meteor is not idolatry.

Shedding tiers for a piece of wall isn't, as isn't kissing the crucifix.

That would make all muslims christian, as they do recognize him as a messenger of God.

It's a cult, yes. A big, old cult that started in Babylon.

To say it has anything to do with Christianity is ludicrous and reveals an almost complete ignorance of history.

>you missed that too.
This rhetorical device is not compelling, and makes your argument less trustworthy.

Jews thrive on coincidences, they're practically a fundamental part of what it means to be a Jew.

What is the messiah turns out to be my dick? What then?
Maybe stop making up scenarios, roleplayer.

Your definition makes the devil a Christian.

Is the devil a Christian?

Also makes God a christian, which is funny to think of.

Man said there were no references....I cited many....his argument there are none was chalked down to his utter and complete ignorance on the matter.

I don't care what Jews thrive on; look at them. their religion drove them insane. They killed their own God.

no

You're playing the what if game, son, not me.

The messiah is God. And has to be God, to do the things the messiah is to do. At least the Jews pondered that there must be two messiahs, as one messiah could not both die and establish an eternal throne.

Because they failed to see that God is the messiah, and that Jesus rose from the dead to continue doing the things the messiah is to do.

People say that. It trips me out. Was Buddha a Buddhist?

Muslims do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. He was a prophet and a human being, nothing more.

Jews need Jesus to be a farce ...... BECAUSE THEY KILLED HIM! #duh

Not to mention, the real "chosen ones" / "real jews" are the body of the church of CHRIST.

Not to mention, the whole Jewish religion is Rabbinical and based on works ... and Jesus taught: And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

Which is why they are doomed.

The protestant reformation (your multitude of "true Christian" churches) never would have happened if Catholicism never existed. Most of protestant teachings are based off of core principles established by the Catholic church. You're the one who is ignoring history.

Muslims believe that Jesus will lead them against the forces of darkness any day now.
Read what ISIS says, they are waiting for their enemies to kill all but the strongest 2000 men, then Jesus will show up and will lead them to fight against the devil, and they will win.
Jesus us to the muslims the general of the forces of haven, and the radical muslims are on the look for him right fucking now. They do think him divine.

It's not my definition, it's society's. Anyone can look it up.

Also seeing how there is no empirical proof the devil exists, you can't really say what his attributes are. At least beyond your LARPing fantasies.

>no empirical proof
>in a thread about skydaddyism

Wew lad.

>Man said there were no references....I cited many....his argument there are none was chalked down to his utter and complete ignorance on the matter.
Not talking about your references or argument, which may be sound for all I know. Just saying your rhetorical device makes you sound dumb, and like a bully. There's no need to resort to petty insults.

Says you.

Nonsense, .... they have to accept the crucifixion and actual _"resurrection"_ of christ

>which may be sound for all I know
They are akin to Star Wars fans making up lore for Wookiepedia by over analyzing every word.
A ram is not a lamb, but a man is a lamb, because after we heard this tale for 2000 years we call our children lambs. God created himself and he made proof that proves itself to prove it.

>lumping all Muslims into one group
>equating the ideology of fringe extremists to an entire group of people

Not all Muslims believe in Jesus as much as you seem to like to think they do. Also your spelling is atrocious.

somebody had to say it

What I don't get is why idolatry is even an issue. It's not like you think the fucking statue is god, you think it's a representation of god.
Why is it blasphemous to praise god in front of its representation rather than in a generic setting?

ISIS has the purest, by the book, no bullshit, no politics, pristine islam. They are reformed and literal fundamental islamists.
If you want to discuss islam, look at them. Everyone who disagrees with them is a bad muslim.

Now, I prefer bad muslims, because they are compatible with civilization somewhat, and the worst they are at islam the better then are for me. But when discussing the faith, ISIS is the way to go.

>Why is it blasphemous to praise god in front of its representation rather than in a generic setting?

Because God said so. No other reason.

I can literally recognise you in every Christian thread

I pity you.

It was a Catholic civil war, and Christianity just rode right by it.

Society. The world. Whose god is the devil.

Says God.

Which were lacking in the above description.

Catholics aren't Christians

If God says wear orange shoes, wear orange shoes.

To answer your question, the "gods" that you would otherwise worship instead of the one true God will lead you into hell, and God does not want that to happen.