The Islamic world completely failed to modernize, but why? In the 19th century...

>China
>developed
>rich

>The Islamic world completely failed to modernize, but why?
Both Ottoman caliphs and local rulers profited from a lack of modernization. More importantly, after Europe became well adjusted to trading with the Americas and later East Asia and Africa, the Ottoman Empire was almost irrelevant to Europeans and thus little trade of ideas/technologies was developed. After all, European powers desired to keep the Ottomans alive as a buffer but never allow them to be able to match the strength of Europe.

However, after the Arab Revolt and Arab independence from European empires, modernization was a MUST for Baathists governments. Yet modernization equates to self-sufficiency and the possibility of being able to take on Western powers. Thus, Western powers made it a mission to consistently work to bring down Arab nationalist leaders, which proved successful. That is why modern development in the Arab world is limited to inner cities and homes of sheiks.

>Thus, Western powers made it a mission to consistently work to bring down Arab nationalist leaders, which proved successful.
That may be true, but then why the west can't do the same thing against much bigger threats like China or Russia?

Russia and China are already-industrialized states with large, unified populations and military might. When Russia and China went through their respective times of revolution and development, the West did not have the same reach it does now. Hence why a coalition was defeated in Soviet Russia and KMT was defeated despite Western-backing.

During the 40s-90s, Arab states were just beginning to develop factories and were reliant upon the products of other states. If the West pulls a power play and calls the bluff of say the Soviet Union, then an Arab country is screwed. Furthermore, Arab society was forced to quickly transition from semi-tribal communities and local leaders to nation states, a process which left a lot of division amongst Arab countries. Most importantly, Arabs had been dormant in terms of warfare for decades, and in short, could not possibly confront Western armies (see Israel-Palestine War, Iraq War) without skillful politics (see Suez Crisis, Faisal bin Abdulaziz). In short, Arab states are simply in an weak, awkward position that Western states easily take dvantage.

TL;DR The West was not as powerful when Russia and China were in the same position as Arab states

Thats why the 'Arab states' was a mistake user, you could have huge country with 'industrialized states with large, unified populations and military might' if you've only stayed with the ottos

>you could have huge country with 'industrialized states with large, unified populations and military might
See pic related

>ottos
Refer to

You prefer car bombs, insurgencies and civil strife?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Movement_of_Uzbekistan
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkistan_Islamic_Party

It's all this fag's fault.

>muh either/or false dichotomy

Is your pic not the American dream, though? Big, suburban house with a nice backyard, etc

>The ottomans held back the Arabs if anything
yeah held them back from this

>Muh not dying of dysentery
Fuck off retard

fuck off you spoiled brat. there are people in the world who would kill and rape to have those things. get a job and move out and then you'll see how valuable the things you listed are.

see
who cares about other people, cunt? they don't live comparable to us nor we to them, so why try and conjure up false empathy for those people in the third world, especially since it is not in the least in our hands to decide their fate? fuck you and fuck your trying to shut down conversation because complaining is an assault on your shitty ass suburban life that you've settled for.

>The Islamic world completely failed to modernize
Did it? Almost all its problems are a result of modernization or in response to it.

>china
>rich

Why do you have to live in American suburbia if you modernize? You/him started with the either/or false dichotomy, just from the other side of the coin.

>The Islamic world completely failed to modernize

Are you retarded? The only Muslim countries that failed to modernize are Somalia, Afghanistan and maybe Yemen and Sudan.

>now salafism completely won

Salafis are around 3% of total Muslim population

>car bombs, insurgencies and civil strife

All of these things are results of modernization of the Muslim world.

>Muslim brotherhood

All you need to know.

Failed to modernize in comparison to the western world is that he meant.
He probably wants to know why the muslim world is hundreds of years behind. Which is because of the muslim brotherhood and interfighting aided by the US and the Soviets at the time.

Muslim Brotherhood is a modernist organization. Modernization of the Muslim world has always been their number one priority.

Because Islamic texts are pure, and any attempts at """""open interpretation""""" are rightfully cast away as heresy

Modernization is the wrong word for that.
The only thing that can actually work is a secularian dictator. Hadjis dont understand anything but the sword.
Muslim brotherhood wants sharia law and all that comes with it. Muslim Brotherhood is the most promiment extremist org. there. What are you on about? They literaly want people back in ancient times. They are the Westboro Church for muslims so to say

>He probably wants to know why the muslim world is hundreds of years behind

If you actually look at statistics, the Muslim world is less than two decades behind the Western world in terms of economic development.

>The Islamic world completely failed to modernize
no, it didn't
it's about 50 years behind the west depending on aspect

Are you a muslim? or why are you trying to defend their backwardness. Im talking about humane problems, torture, stonings etc pp.
Not fucking economic development.
And any capital and general money comes from oil and thats about it. Once the oil runs out these people will be living in desert huts again.

>China also made a terrible entry in modernity, was also colonized, but is now developed and rich
vast majority of islamic world has higher gdp per capita than china

>The only thing that can actually work is a secularian dictator

Name a single secular dictator from the Muslim world that hasn't been complete and utter failure

>They literaly want people back in ancient times.

What? You do know absolutely nothing about MB, don't you? They are constantly saying that the most important things for the Muslim world are modernization and democratization. When factions of MB took power in Egypt and Tunisia, they didn't implement the Sharia. Instead, they democratized these countries.

>torture

Yeah, Western countries never torture anyone.

>stonings

In almost all cases where it has been applied in recent years, stoning has taken place in tribal or rebel areas beyond the control of central governments—the Taliban in Afghanistan, ISIS in Iraq, and Boko Haram in Nigeria being cases in point. Out of the world’s forty-nine Muslim-majority states, six retain the punishment in deference to Islamic legal tradition, ... Of these countries only Iran, which officially placed a moratorium on stoning in 2002 but still gives leeway to individual judges, has actually carried it out.

>And any capital and general money comes from oil and thats about it. Once the oil runs out these people will be living in desert huts again.

This is only true for maybe Saudi Arabia. All the other oil-rich Muslim countries have already diversified their economies.

>Im talking about humane problems, torture, stonings etc pp.
Not fucking economic development.

Economic development is the only kind of development that matters, unless you are a libtard Whig who believes in "social progress"

literally

>The Islamic world completely failed to modernize, but why?
Because postivism said so.

Amirite I Fucking Love Science its 2017!

>LOL FUCKING WHIGS
>"Economic development is the only kind of development that matters"
You sound positivist yourself, friend.

Turkey has fuelled the Syrian civil war greatly wtf are you smoking

No it's not. The Muslim world (at least for Arabs) produce nothing, no industry, no scientists, the literature, movie industry is fucking dead in those countries. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan are all as modern, if not more modern than the west. In fact, even India, with slums everywhere, seems in better state, without oil.

Countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia would be irrelevant if they didn't have oil. It makes me wonder what will happen when the oil begins to drop.

Economic collapse followed by social collapse, civil war and tens of millions of rapefugees heading towards Europe.

>modernity

Source?

>Saudi Arabia would be irrelevant if they didn't have oil

This is the most retarded most I've seen on this board in a month, congratulations!

>The Islamic world completely failed to modernize, not really

they have issues, that's correct, but 'completely failed' is retarded

even africans aren't completely failing to modernize

Is there any decent movie made by Arabs? Not really. Iran made some, but I have never seen anything from the Arabic world. The gulf countries are rich as fuck thanks to oil, but don't produce anything, practice the most rigid kind of Islam, but are fascinated by external signs of wealth (big cars, skyscraper etc.). Now, compare these countries with Korea and Japan, both way richer and modern without any oil.

To be honest it was the Protestant West that 'modernized' the earliest. The rest of the world was more comparable to each other. Really the most backwards places in the Muslim world are either in Afghanistan or Africa. Also Yemen somewhat though it's also a beautiful country for that same reason.

>Indonesia
>Not modern
wut

yes
theguardian.com/culture/2013/jul/06/10-best-arab-films

all better than anime

anyways, having a real film industry is kind of difficult in the gulf countries since a lot of things are forbidden
fertile memory is apparently a feminist arab film

either way, go see them and then answer the question
>Is there any decent movie made by Arabs?

Paradise Now
Omar
Granted these films were made by a guy who's half Arab and half Dutch.

If you want something from the Gulf the only movie that comes to mind is Wadjda

When you are talking about ''Modernize'' are you talking about economic development (Actual development), or are you talking about meme-tier ''Social development''? If it's the former then there are plenty of Muslim developed nations (Jordan, Turkey, Oman, Iran, Malaysia, etc...) If you are talking about the latter, then the answer is simple, they don't want to. They don't want to allow trannys, atheists, whores and non-muslims anywhere near Mecca, and they want it to stay that way. They don't want to be the next Sweden. Where Liberalism is the de facto religion and being ''Christian'' is just a hollow identity.

Anime is a very generic term, I'm pretty sure movies made by Ghibli are better than those on your list most of the time. Your list is full of pretty obscure old movies. Now compare these movies with the Korean movie industry, famous worldwide, or even Kurosawa.
Again, compared to Japan and Korea, the Arabic world is a joke.

Jordan has tons of christians(a third of the economy belongs to christians there) and so does turkey btw
Atheism or at least secularism can and should take root in all those countries you mentioned cuz allah aint real

islam is retarded period
also
>SWEDEN YESSSS LIBARDS!!
kek ok

Well it is true that all forms of state secularism are provenly better than western backed religious "freedom".

Ok, these two work.
I'm thinking more about east Asian countries. Countries that actually produce stuff, aren't obsessed by religion, have actual clean cities, low crimes, education for women. Taiwan is a modern country, Saudi Arabia, with its wealth from oil isn't.

>I'm pretty sure movies made by Ghibli are better than those on your list
you watched them so fast? come on, don't be ridiculous
korean media is absolute cancer to me and other than anime, which is hate, i don't see much from japan
nor do i see much from arabs, nor do i look for it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist i've clearly proven to you - it exists

in fact, i've never seen a japanese movie other than censored JAV porn webms on /gif/
so..
>Again, compared to Japan and Korea, the Arabic world is a joke.
in what sense
is that your subjective conclusion based on movies, way of life or what?

arabic world isn't a solid entity and i'd rather live in tunisia or jordan than korea, with its suicide rate that is 10 times higher than the murder rate in tunisia
arabic countries tend to have very low crime actually, entirely comparable to eastern europe and in some cases western
life is just different due to culture and islam

>Jordan has tons of christians(a third of the economy belongs to christians there) and so does turkey btw
Not at all. Jordan is 8% Christian and Turkey is 2% (even less)
>Atheism or at least secularism can and should take root in all those countries you mentioned cuz allah aint real
>islam is retarded period
Let me make it very simple and clear to you. They don't give an atom of a fuck what you think ''should'' happen in their countries.
>SWEDEN YESSSS LIBARDS!!
>kek ok
Not an argument.
>That pic
Ah, yes. It's the usual deceptive propaganda pic where Iran is portrayed as developed during the reign of the Shah when it was just the Capital in Tehran and the elites. The rest of the country was such an economic shithole, that even the Secular Socialists allied with the Ayatollah's to take down the Shah.

To be fair many dictators were doomed to fail from the start because they were installed by foreign powers (Shah) and others were doomed to fail because foreign powers didn't like them (Assad, although it seems like it's not going so bad anymore, he just won't have a country left to rule). Dictators have run their countries in the Middle East better than the democratic governments. Democracy is highly sectarian environments is the worst cancer. It's literally tyranny of the majority and just leads to minorities getting shit on, not to mention the fact they also tend to be totally incompetent. Dictators can do it too but at least there's a chance it won't happen.

Modernization = Westernization = colonization

Just putting it out there.

>it was just the Capital in Tehran
that was also the case in numerous places in europe
modernization starts in the big cities

> They don't give an atom of a fuck what you think ''should'' happen in their countries.
of course they don't never said they do, you are just strawmanning a person inside your meme-filled head right now
i am just pointing out historic facts to you of what was and what could be

here's another fairly recent historic fact, millions of middle easterners, mostly christian, moved to the americas and have lived there and assimilated amicably to the point nobody even knows they are there
current president of brazil is of lebanese descent - pic related, his excellency

>come on, don't be ridiculous
>korean media is absolute cancer to me and other than anime, which is hate, i don't see much from japan
You probably don't watch a lot then. First it's stupid to say "I hate anime", again Ghibli movies are anime. Kurosawa is pretty famous too. As for Korea, it's well known they made a lot of good movies.
They're a joke in every practical sense. Algiers is a dumpster compared to Tokyo, a much bigger city. There is less crimes than expected because clans basically still rule the lands. Working in those countries can be exhausting, but that's how they became rich. You should compare Tokyo's metro (clean, efficient) with Algiers. Japan and Korea don't practice some kind of formalist religion either, that probably helps.

China is colonized?

>China is colonized?
In culture and ideology? Absolutely. The current established ideology in China is a Western ideology created by a German Jew. The ''Cultural Revolution'' was literally China wiping out all of their 6.000 year traditions and values in favor of Communism and Socialism. The majority of the country right now are sweatshop workers who work in such godawful conditions, that they commit mass suicides in droves.

animefaggot look at statistics
> There is less crimes than expected because clans basically still rule the lands.
ye im sure that's the case in literally every single arab country with a low murder rate, again, entirely comparable (and consistently so) to eastern europe and in some cases western
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

(also that indonesia murder number, wtf, did not expect)
here's your suicide numbers
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

i don't give much of a shit about the clean metro in tokyo, their tidy lives, and their anime, especially their anime - there's more to life than perfect possible security and cleanliness as the suicide numbers very clearly show

>algiers
yes, north africa, but there's more to north africa than meets the eye, there's tunisia
i am sympathetic to your sentiment about north africans since they are especially problematic in europe(moroccans) and a lot of these ingrates should (that word again) return to their actually, objectively perfectly livable countries (except the ones at war i guess, which is a more complicated story)

i remember the berlin terrorist - the wannabe 'refugee' from tunisia
it's just funny how deluded you have to be to think you can be a refugee from tunisia - it's like asking to be a refugee from belarus, it's just not how it works

those sorts of people probably influence your view of the arab countries as a whole, but life there(most countries) isn't nearly as bad as you or the evil leftists would have you believe -
crime rates, life expectancy, economic development and other metrics and they can most certainly improve further

i guess me and you, we are culturally different, i love board games like backgammon, chess, i even prefer arab girls, especially when compared to asian girls - in terms of looks

but considering you like anime and watch korean cartoons, i probably wasted my time on you

Juste because China adopted a western ideology (not really in fact) doesn't mean it's colonized. This is really stupid, from your point of view, China should have an emperor, still believe in retarded shit and wear Han dynasty type of clothes to remain true China?

>Countries that actually produce stuff

What does this supposed to mean? Literally every single country on Earth produces "stuff".

>aren't obsessed by religion

Turkey and most ex-Soviet Muslim countries have been more laicist during the last century than most Western countries (except for those that have been part of the Eastern Bloc)

>have actual clean cities

The cities of Gulf states, Kazakhstan and certain Muslim-majority regions like Tatarstan and Bashkortostan are mostly pretty clean

>low crimes

Most Muslim countries have pretty low crime rates. Qatar and UAE have one of the lowest crime rates in the world

>education for women

Areas controlled by Taliban are the only places in the Muslim world where women don't have access to education. Even ISIS supports female education.

Go to zimbabwe you stupid fuck, see how much fun 3rd world countries are

Ehh, was true in 1990, not true in 2017.

China has a nominal GDP/capita of $8,123, which is lower than that of the Gulf States, but comfortably higher than the rest of the Muslim world.

For reference, the 10 countries with the most muslims and their GDP/capita

> Indonesia - $3,570
> India - $1,709
> Pakistan - $1,468
> Bangladesh - $1,358
> Nigeria - $2,177
> Egypt - $3,514
> Iran - $4,957
> Turkey - $10,979 (this is the only big muslim country with a higher GDP/capita)
> Algeria - $3,843
Morrocco

>Name a single secular dictator from the Muslim world that hasn't been complete and utter failure
Ataturk, Ahmed Ben Balla, Houari Boumediene, Suharto, pre-war Gaddafi, pre-war Saddam, pre-war Assad

Comparing suicide rates doesn't make sense. Japan is a country in which suicide was seen as honourable. In Islam, suicide leads you to hell. So not really surprising here. Japan and Korea also don't have a population of fanatics ready to go to war. Tunisia isn't really much better than Algeria.
I don't think I even talked about anime or Korean cartoons.

>"yeah man islam is so retarded! because there were no islamists until all secular resistance against Western imperialism in Iran was crushed. those crazy muslims man it's not like we created the perfect conditions for their rise to popularity.

>Literally every single country on Earth produces "stuff".
Highly technical products. You know, Japan produces a lot of high technologies, despite having no ressources at all. I can't even think of a famous Arabian brand.

Except for Ataturk, the rest are failures. They are only successful in that they weren't overthrown. The economies of those countries languished, only being propped up by oil.

japs dont kill themselves because it was seen as honorable once, even you dont believe that

also korean suicides are far higher than japanese ones

yes arabs are religious and overwhelmingly muslim, this we know
>I don't think I even talked about anime or Korean cartoons.
what, it's in your post, the post i clearly responded to
i'll quote it for you
i said
>>korean media is absolute cancer to me and other than anime, which is hate, i don't see much from japan
you said
>You probably don't watch a lot then. First it's stupid to say "I hate anime", again Ghibli movies are anime.

also, tunisia is significantly better than algeria even in terms of social modernity
this man and his secular party won plurality (38%) at the elections in 2014
he is the 5th president of tunisia

their democracy is 6 years old, so you cannot expect that much, the second largest party is a 'moderate' muslim democrat party

algeria meanwhile is basically controlled by military and rich so voting there doesn't mean much
ok

three things
1 you are strawmanning
2 all i am pointing out is what could have been and WAS at a point in time not that long ago in a country not that far away, NOT why it failed
3 doesnt change the fact that islam is actually retarded and muslims are crazy if they believe the shit literally

those are facts

>They are only successful in that they weren't overthrown.
Considering international pressures, that's an achievement.

>only being propped up by oil
What else is there, apart from dates and fishing? Most of these states are stuck in the position of being forced to buy from Western economies or Russia and China. The leaders who tried to develop producing economies are the ones who've been overthrown or are currently plagued with insurgencies.

Zimbabwe has all of these things except for democracy

>The Islamic world completely failed to modernize
Go to any middle eastern country and you will find TVs, the internet, modern cars, every modern technology. Where does this false premise come from? A place of ignorance.

China's GDP per capita (11,825$) is slightly higher than that of the OIC (10,850$) but lower than that of the Arab League (14,241$)

Op wording is retarded
Shouldve said that their society refuse to modernize

Not built by themselves.

I'm not saying they do so because it's honourable, I'm saying the history of suicide isn't the same in those countries, and naturally, it influences the results. Few Muslims kill themselves directly, due to fear of hell. Historically, suicide wasn't seen so badly in Asia.
And you're the one talking about anime and Korean cartoons. Japan doesn't produce much now (still there are great movies now and then) but had an amazing movie industry. Korean movie industry is known to be really good. Anime is a generic term : every animated movies in Japan is anime. Ghibli movies are really good, they are anime, what an it?

I am not understanding. One country created television but all countries use? One country created internet but all countries use?

You just had to ruin it didn't you? You just had to post obvious /pol/ tier bait and sit back and watch this thread eat itself alive.

Arab League includes the Gulf petrostates, and isn't representative of the Muslim world as a whole.

This thread was shit from the start. Threads about Islam are always absolute trash.

you can only change people as much as they want to be changed. The majority of the Muslim world don't want to be Westernized and actively fight against such attempts.

>Nowadays in Bulgaria, and for centuries in Ukraine, the word Janissar (яничap) is used as a synonym of the word traitor.

Britain supporting the House of Saud against the Ottomans was a mistake.

I've made some quite enjoyable and interesting threads about how much better the Koran is testified by early manuscripts than the New Testament, but in general you are right.

Muslim Brit here, yes, I agree that was one of the most horrific mistakes in history. And one that kept being perpetuated by every British and US government since.

Yemen is backward because it was bombed back to the stone age by US and Saudi Arabia for trying to have a healthy democratic process.

Because all the secular dictators, except for Attaturk, are all dead.