Hey Veeky Forums was there a point in history when eastern Europe was more civilized then the

care to elaborate user?

Lol what?

Italy was billions of times more developed

Everyone loves to weep over the Mongol destruction of the Middle East, but honestly I find the Mongol invasion of Russia far more tragic.

That being said, Kiev's influence was already declining prior to the Mongols and you can't really generalise the prosperity of Eastern Europe by one city.

i think you might be right user. pic related is the Italian city Bologna in the 12th century.
pretty cool, basically a medieval metropolis.

PLC was much more open minded than Western Europe

>all those towers

Then yes again. Slovenic kingdoms were heavily influenced by BE. That's 800 to 1200 and even up to late 1300.

>Barbary pirates
>themselves
>Protestants
>bloody French wars
>the French

But muh mongols

Right now for example.

>Not taking in Muslims
>Not falling for degeneracy

>If you would count Byzantium as Eastern European
lmao

Why are you bringing in modern politics in a Veeky Forumstory board?

well eastern Europe was heavily influenced by Byzantium.
their religion, art, architecture and script made it's way up the Dnieper from Constantinople..

Not from Constantinople! From Bulgaria

The Czech's and Poles did better than the Norwegians for a while.

But then they could be said to be central Europeans.

Does Italy count as Western Europe?

I mean if we're excluding Byzantium on one side...

yes Italy had the same western European culture.

>Mostly rural feudal monarchies
>Bunch of independent oligarchic merchant cities

Nigga what?

what do you mean by eastern

OP here basically Slavic.

bohemia was part of the HRE and slavic, an elector actually

yeah they didn't have the exact same culture but it was more or less the same, you know catholic.

Kiev Rus, Novgorod, Poland-Lithuania, Bohemia, Hungary.

Of course people here will deny that for example England used to be a complete shithole backwater when Eastern Europe flourished.

Adopting orthodox christianity doesn't make the east more advanced than the west. While the west had the Carolingian empire the east had a collection of little russian duchies.

>but honestly I find the Mongol invasion of Russia far more tragic
Literally two million people died in Baghdad alone you retard

>superior polish plumbing technology

you could just find something else like food, armament and wealth of kingdoms

Weird.

Things like septic tanks and hot and cold water taps for baths were used in Westminster from the Middle Ages onward. Seems like the French were dirtbags yet again.

Poland and the PLC were great reservoirs of culture and development throughout the entire 15th and 16th centuries. It was rich and (relatively) stable, and was probably one of if not the nicest place to live during those centuries in the middle of the last millennium.

Swedeshitters ruined it though, they looted and burnt almost every palace, library, archive and gallery in the PLC, they massacred, in some places, up to 3/4 of the population, and are the reason Poland in the last few centuries has gone from France-Tier to what it is now.

Poland was the most free country in Europe. And oh, it wasn't really szlachta that mostly fucked up the Commonwealth, they were actually the soul of the nation and cultural and knowledge propagators, but some magnate families like the Radziwiłł's.
Actually the protestants and calvinists like the Radziwiłł's wanted the Cossacks (a warrior class of refugees to the borderland (U+kraina) of mostly Ruthenian but also Polish, Lithuanian, Scottish, Dutch ethnicity as well) to rise up against the Catholic majority so the protestants from the north could overtake the country, then later the Radziwiłł's literally begged Sweden to invade and are partly responsible for causing the Deluge - all in the name of destroying Catholicism.

Prussians were supported by other protestants, mostly Britain through proxies like Sweden and Prussia. The protestants wanted to destroy Catholic Poland because it was the largest and most powerful country loyal to the Vatican. The Brits were the 4th partitioner of Poland through funding Prussia."

All of those combined and then multiplied by 20 do not even shadow the destruction eastern Europe suffered with the Mongols and later the Golden Horde.

It is good the Russians managed to genocide the fuck out of their descendants though, they deserved it.

Eastern European countries caught up a little in the XIV-XV. centuries after the plague hit hard Western Europe, which was more densely populated that time too. But then great geographic discoveries happened and it became irrelevant again.

>was there a point in history when eastern Europe was more civilized then the
>West?

literally all the time until Mongol invasion

WE WUZ FORKS N SHIT I TELL YOU

That's the best you can come up with?

Better than your attempt to prove superiority with cutlery.

Funny how Poles always find a way to blame Britain for something. The Anglo-Prussian Alliance of 1756 ended in 1762 and consequently Britain ceased funding Prussia. Following the 7 Years' War their relationship deteriorated and relations were only improved in the 1780s with a formal alliance being signed in 1788. The First Partition of Poland took place in 1772. And yet for some reason Britain was actually a partitioner of Poland? Hmm.

>be the only Rus city-state capable of building a stone wall
>Claim to be more advanced than Rome and Paris because of this "achievement"
Lmao

Rich doesn't mean civilized.
The Mongols were the wealthiest people in the world when they conquered Russia, does that make them the most civilized?

actually the wall of Kiev was wooden.
remember most of the walls in medieval Europe where constructed a thousand years prier by the Romans.

>mfw it would only take one fire arrow to wreck a million hohols

There is definite a time period when eastern europe was more civilized and I say this as a northern european simply because of the evidence they left behind.
Ruins dating back far further from whatever mudhuts were standing here among whatever the romans left behind.
You must know that the northern part of Holland and Germany and Denmark / Scandinavia was never fully occupied and remained untouched for centuries.
During medieval times when christianity was forced upon europe more or less things started to get rolling again

fire arrows are a myth user.

youtube.com/watch?v=zTd_0FRAwOQ

>Be French
>Shit inside your own castle walls
>Die of dysentery
>Hundreds of years later invite millions of Moroccans into your country
>They shit all over your streets and rape your descendants
WE WUZ CHARLEMAGNE AN SHIET!!

Even in prehistory, western Europe was broing it up with small agricultural communities and eastern Indo-European wanderers came and fucked everything up.

Depends on what you mean by "civilised".

I recall reading some Polish memoirs talking about the Vienna campaign and the Poles would describe the conduct of their German allies (e.g. murdering and torturing Turkish prisoners) with disgust peppered with comments on how Germans are savage by nature and incapable of restraining their cruelty in victory.

Found the passage I had in mind:

>The Germans, on the other hand, took no captives, but killed them crudelissime [with exceeding cruelty]. Even after death, they dragged their corpses about; flayed them, twisted the flayed strips into straps they might use; the third day after the battle, it was already hard to see a Turk on the battlefield with his body entire; and if any of our men was not cautious in leading a captive, and he rode among Germans, they would seize the prisoner out of his grasp and kill him.

>My nephew Stanisław Pasek was leading a Turk, some kind of important fellow, for he was handsomely attired and riding a beautiful horse; my nephew, having disarmed the captive, was leading him along on his horse, holding only the reins, when along comes a German, rides alongside the Turk, and stabs him with a dagger. The Turk only groaned; my nephew looked back, and the Turk, mouth agape, is slipping off his horse. Having stabbed him, the German rode off at once to the side. My nephew begins to scold him: "You pig, you knave! Killed my prisoner you have, and is that permitted?" The German but laughs and says: "Ja, Pan, are you Poles feeding the devil?" My nephew rails at him that you're a scoundrel, not a cavalier - to kill a captive already in our hands. But the German only rides on, laughing.

>What else was there to do? The Germans feel great rancor as the Turks robbed them of so much of their country, their provinces and fortresses; secondly, they are a natura crudeles [innately cruel] and know not how to observe knightly restraint in victoria.

Everyone did this about foreigners all throughout history

Hahahahaha

What are all those towers? I know that cities today are filled with towers but those are all office buildings or hotels and such other things that didn't really exist back then.

>14th century
>Italy
MATE...

someone post the story about the french actors and the polish nobles pls

Sure, I am just saying that from the perspective of the Poles in that situation they were the more civilised ones.

Also it's notable that it's criticism aimed at an ally; the author of seems to hold the Turks in higher regard than the Germans, presenting them elsewhere as civilised (the point of softness and decadence, in fact) and reasonable despite being loathsome foreign pagans.

i think they where used as a refuge for the aristocracy when there was a peasant uprising.

Here it is. All translations (by Catherine S. Leach) from "Memoirs of the Polish Baroque".

>More Frenchmen there were in Warsaw than fanned Cerberus' fires, throwing money around, carrying on intrigues - mainly nocturnal, enjoying great freedom in Warsaw and great esteem; they performed triumphal spectacles in honor of their victories, even though invented and not real; at court a Frenchman can always gain entry, while a Pole must stand nearly half the day at the door; 'tis, to be brief, a sorely exaggerated esteem.

>Among their divers privileges I must mention this one: in Warsaw they were allowed to perform in theatro publico [on the public stage] a triumphal celebration of a victory over the German [Austrian] emperor. Upon bringing the actors to the theatrum along with the music and fireworks for the celebration, a mob of people gathered to view so marvellous a spectaculum; some came on horseback, being either on their way out of Warsaw or arriving; whoever took notice, though his affair be urgent, stayed to watch this wondrous performance.

>And I too was there, for I was departing from Warsaw. Having left my lodgings, I, too stopped thus on horseback with my retainers to watch these wonders. Circa hoc spectaculum [around this spectacle] were standing people of different rank and temper. The French performed divers scenes: now armies attacked, now the foot and horse closed ranks, now one side gave up the field to another, now Germans were taken prisoner and beheaded, now a fortress was stormed and taken - in short, such things were performed at great expense and sumptuously. No sooner had the emperor's army been routed, as it were, and the enemy defeated in the field, but they bring in the emperor bound in chains, in his imperial robes but no longer wearing the imperial crown on his head, carrying it instead in his hands and surrendering it to the French king.

>We saw, of course, that the man impersonating the emperor in chains was a prominent Frenchman - he knew how to imitate his outer bearing and he stuck out his lip like the emperor. One of the Poles on horseback began to yell at the French actors: "Kill that son of a so-and-so now that you've got him; don't spare him, for if you let him go, he'll wage war after war, shed men's blood, and the world will never see peace; kill him and the French king will gain the imperium, he'll be emperor, and, God willing, he'll be king of Poland. But if you don't kill him, I'll kill him in the end."

>And if he doesn't seize his bow, insert an arrow, and now pierces Sir Emperor's side so hard that out come sthe tip on the other side; he did him in. The Poles to their bows, they take after that French mob, shooting at them, even wounding the one sitting in persona of the king; he fell from the throne under the theatrum onto his crown and then fled away with the other Frenchmen.

>Warsaw was in an uproar then. Those who had done the shooting rode off, each going his own way; I myself immediately made off lest I be somehow mistakenly suspect, I too having been part of that throng. Having ridden half a mile beyond Warsaw in the direction of Tarczyn, I left my bow with Pan Łączyński to escape suspicion, then rode on slowly, taking only my hunting piece, for I expected them to give chase. And something of the sort did happen, for Queen Ludwika, though an imperiosus mulier [imperious termagant], to whom one could safely apply the saying coined for another monarch: Rex erat Helisabeth, verum regina Jacobus, imperiosus mulier [Elizabeth, an imperious termagant, was king, but James queen], shedding her haughtiness, fell at the king's feet, begging him to pursue them, to seize them.

>The king gave the order then, for whoever could do so, to take to the highways and bring this affair to a speedy end, only sine effectu [without effect]; for whomever they overtook and asked, "From whence do you come riding? Was it not you who killed the emperor and wounded the French king?" - "Not I," and they let him be.

>The which query reached my ears too, only not until the following day. I stopped in to visit Pan Okuń; glad he was to see me; I'm telling him of this tragedy when a few dozen horse came riding into the village asking: "Was anyone riding through here from Warsaw?" They rode there, they enter the house: "Servus." - "Servus." My host asked them to be seated. And they ask me: "From whence is Your Honor riding?" Say I: "From Warsaw." - "When did Your Worship leave?" Say I: "After the death of the Christian emperor and the king of France." - "Did you see it happen?" - "I saw it." - "What sort of person was it who took the first shot at the emperor?" Say I: "Someone like Your Honor and myself."

>Says he, laughing: "Was it not yourself, Your Honor?" I answer: "Bows and arrows they were using there, while I came here without a quiver." Says he: "Even were it Your Honor who did it, or whoever else, you've the Lord's forgiveness for taking up the cudgels in such a mighty outrage; his Majesty the king expresses his sympathy only in the Queen's sight; in his heart he's amused by it." They then, having a hearty chortle over that coversation and making merry, drank up a barrel of my host's beer, and a second, and away they rode.

tl;dr: A bunch of Polish noblemen murder some French actors in the middle of a show for the sake of banter.

The poles are the master of toilets even to this day lol

HOHOHO FUCKING HOOHOH, so good.

Can't recall any period

Toilets are serious business.

>Citing a tap dancer

Those are not arrows, those are bolts, you imbecile.

Also, those are not fire bolts, but incendiary bolts, meaning that is gunpowder attached to them that ignites upon landing, not a fucking flame shit on a stick.

Great argument, user! You opened my eyes!

Fucking twat

Protip: nobody will care about your shithole no matter how hard you try and put your self in the spotlight. Bulgaria didn't invent Byzantine culture or Orthodoxy. They invented Cyrillic, but don't stretch further than that. Bulgaria is a Slavic country and the Byzantines spread their culture to them just like they did with the Serbs and Rus.

That doesn't invalidate the argument was making

They don't need to have gunpowder; you can use potassium nitrate, sulfer and pitch.

Or alternatively

“Sometimes cotton, tow, or the like substance, previously mixed with pitch, rosin, oil, or naphtha, was wrapped on the end of an Arrow, in the form of a ball”.“Which ball, when in use, was fired, and the Arrow directed towards the wooden towers and engines of the enemy; where sticking firmly, communicated a flame to every part near it. This was used with great success in naval expeditions”

So you were nitpicking at his semantics, rather than the actual point of his post.
>Bulgaria
>shithole
It was a powerful empire, once.

>it was a powerful empire once
So? Everyone was. Why should I care about some insignificant empire which it's sole purpose was to raid Roman cities turning them into sl*vic shitholes and contributed absolutely nothing to anyone? Fuck off with your banana republic

why make a slav thread man

I'm not OP. And I don't generally hate slavs either. I was just calling you out on your Tatar bullshit when you tried to put Bulgaria in front of Constantinople

between 600 and 1000 the more developed regions of italy where raided to hell and back

ITT : butthurt delusional slavshits

Not an argument. It's actually your anus leaking right now, friend.

A leak, that’s a job for a slav

Yeah, because western trash doesn't know how to do simple things without someone explaining it to him.

Eastern trash needs to make itself useful, you should be grateful

Tesla > pile of shit > Eddison

More civilized is grammatically incorrect.

You are or you arent. That said, slavs are scum.

Tesla benefited from not living in a slav shithole. Sl*vs can actually be tolerable when they grow out of their poor self destructive alcoholic native environment

...

Byzantium had pretty much the same culture as most of eastern Europe,Orthodox

right now

Mostly only the city of Constantinople, the rest of the “empire” was always in conflicts and invasions and often they didn’t have a control over it.

I am Not undermining eastern roman influince on Bulgaria or other other eastern european states. But there wete bulgarian clergymen in Kievan Rus spreading the distinct bulgarian culture in these lands. Also after the fall of Bulgaria in 1396 a good piece of the monastery and palace liabreries found their way in Muscovy where they were used and influenced the russian language to the point that bulgarian is more interchangable with russian then slovakian or ukrainian despite those countries beeing closer geographically.

On a more personal note: Bulgaria is in the spotlight. It doesnt need me to advocate for it. But what also is in the spotlight is your WE WAZING and attempt to highjack all of history so you can feel big and relevant. Butthurt greeks, turks, romanians, serbs and bulgarians are the most pityfull sight. So go fuckyourself

Vienna was sieged for month, the countryside constantly raided and plundered, many Germans were probably still full of rage and vengeance

And serbain and russian cultures were heavily influenced from the bulgarian one. Bulgarian one was influenced by the eastern roman culture. Eastern roman culture was influenced by gothic, sassanid and many more. Following yor logic i cant put constaninople before a plain in modern tanzania where the first human village came to existance. There are hundreds of other influancial civilisations between the two and every one of them influanced the next one. There is no starting point. So Constantinople was important but Preslav an Ohrid and other bulgarian and eastern roman cities were crucial as much as constantinople

Are you retarded?

>Bulgarian mental gymnastics on fleek
Good show!

>WE WAZING
Double standards Boris...

Comming from a guy arguing on a japaneese image board. If you think you are something more, please concidere killing yourself

How is that we wazing. Im saying many countries had influaces on ither countries throught time