Was he really that bad?

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

This interview with Pol Pot's second in command makes it clear to me that everything we're told about Democratic Kampuchea is a blatant lie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKHGxu7vd-g

If Pol Pot was really so evil, why do many Cambodians miss the Khmer Rouge era?

https://www.pri.org/stories/2012-03-20/cambodia-cashing-khmer-rouge

All urls found in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKHGxu7vd-g
https://www.pri.org/stories/2012-03-20/cambodia-cashing-khmer-rouge
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-24014501
https://www.theguardian.com/news/blog/2006/jul/18/post181
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv2XS0TVHQo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uyIlKnITho
Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Its dark history notwithstanding, this makeshift grave in northern Cambodia attracts a steady trickle of visitors, many of whom actually revere Pol Pot. They light incense and pray to the ghost of a departed tyrant.

“Without Pol Pot, I wouldn’t have survived till today,” said Khim Suon, a 56-year-old who has a job selling tickets to the cremation site. “Pol Pot was a leader who protected the nation, so foreigners and locals come to respect him. ... They come to pray and take souvenir photos.”

It’s a common sentiment in Anlong Veng, the last stronghold of the Khmer Rouge, which lies near the Thai border and around 60 miles north of the famous temples of Angkor.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Lord_Tryzalot
Lucky this faggot didn't need glasses

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@ZeroReborn
Any proof he killed people for wearing glasses? Sounds like typical fake news imperialist propaganda

Illusionz
Illusionz

@PurpleCharger
if King Leopold was really so evil, why do so many Congolese miss the Khmer Rouge era?
because historical romanticism, when times are bad people will always look to romanticize the past in an effort to find a time when things weren't so bad

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@PurpleCharger
The only people that don't miss the dictator of their respective countries are Germans because they're autistic.

People tend to be nostalgic for former regimes especially if it was during the time they were growing up. Even more if nothing personally affected them during it.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Stupidasole
Google it you dumb revisionist nigger.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Sir_Gallonhead
The only sources I've found so far:
-Redditblog.com (trash)
-BBC.co.uk (trash)
-New York Times (trash)

Sounds like bullshit to me

@Illusionz
Severely doubt anyone in the Congo misses Leopold II...

whereismyname
whereismyname

@Spazyfool
It's only left-wing dictators that are missed. Right-wing dictators are universally hated.

Most Chileans hate Pinochet:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-24014501

Most Spaniards hate Franco:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/blog/2006/jul/18/post181

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@whereismyname
BBC and Guardian are commies btw

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@Illusionz
Leopold II was a foreign ruler who never set foot in the FCS, for one.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@GoogleCat
new york times : trash
Kill ys you'reself

idontknow
idontknow

Yes

Playboyize
Playboyize

@PurpleCharger
pol pots fucking right hand man gives a stellar review of his former employer
Are you fucking retarded

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

Pol Pot wished to achieve a noble goal in the form of an agrarian socialist state and thus restore Cambodian national pride. Some mistakes were made within the regime as within other regimes, however Pol Pot and his rule over Cambodia remain a beacon of agrarianism in the world.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Carnalpleasure
some mistakes were made
Killing off a quarter of your population including people who just had glasses is a bit more than a mistake commie-kun.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@whereismyname
Right-wing dictators are universally hated.

Go to /pol/ sometimes and see just how wrong you are

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@Nude_Bikergirl
The Belgian rule, cruel as it was, was the only thing stopping the tribes from genociding eachother. As soon as the Belgians left, the Congolese got back at massacring eachother and they do to this day with as a highlight the massive slaughter of 9 million people during the Rwanda Genocides of the nineties.

takes2long
takes2long

@whereismyname
Spaniards hate Franco
hahaha
that's why they were openly singing fascist anthems again recently because of Catalonia, amirite?

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@PurpleCharger
t. Gnome Chumpsky

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Carnalpleasure
socialist state
noble

hairygrape
hairygrape

@VisualMaster
Nice meme.

Techpill
Techpill

@LuckyDusty
t. David Horowitz

SniperGod
SniperGod

@Ignoramus
I'd argue that the Free Congo State didn't really prevent inter-tribal massacres so much as it empowered some tribes (like the Zappo Zap) over others. I'd also argue that the Belgian Congo was a somewhat different entity than the FCS - not that it was benign, but it was also under parliamentary control instead of an absolute monarch and his hired goons, so no more hand mountains (or not as many).

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@VisualMaster
billionare-owned news outlets which regularly target left-wing countries with war propaganda are communist
lmbo

BBC's fake news report about (socialist) Syria "chemical weapons":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv2XS0TVHQo

@w8t4u
Get with the times mate, even your average Republican hillbilly recognizes NYT as fake news.

@PurpleCharger
Nice source

@Fuzzy_Logic
Most people in /pol/ are non-white Americans, who have never lived in fascist Spain or Chile, so their opinions are irrelevant.

@takes2long
Who's "they"? A small minority of Spaniards (mostly wealth elites) don't represent the majority of Spaniards. If you don't agree try waving a Francoist flag in Barcelona or Seville, don't be surprised when you wake up in the hospital though.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@GoogleCat
Hi Chomsky, whatcha doin' on Veeky Forums?

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@PurpleCharger
Citing pol pot's deputy as a source on how benevolent pol pot was is like citing "popeye" velasquez as a source on how kind and benevolent pablo escobar was.
these people visited pol pots grave, so cambodians must really have liked him
I have yet to see any sort of evidence that the majority of cambodians actually liked pol pot

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@PurpleCharger
why do many Cambodians miss the Khmer Rouge era?
Does your source actually claim that? a steady trickle hardly seems like a lot of people.

Other things to consider -

Upwards of a quarter of the population died during the 5 or so years of his rule so you can bet the strongest opponents to the regime would have been swept up in that.

-Initially they were able to shake off the dominance of the urban elite

-The nationalism and temporary relevance he created even if it was contextual and resulted in the suicidal decision to make war on Vietnam.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@SniperGod
I realize I very much symplify things. Was very impressed by Jeff Geraerts' Gangreen series in which he describes his time as a Belgian paratropper in the Congo.

farquit
farquit

go back to bed chomsky

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Burnblaze
I have yet to see any sort of evidence that the majority of cambodians actually liked pol pot
As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a study done to determine Cambodian opinions on Pol Pot. But from articles like OP, you can deduce that a significant proportion of the population is nostalgic for the Khmer Rouge period.

Many Columbians have a nuanced view of Pablo, on the one hand he was a killer and a thief, but so are the people who run Columbia. At least Pablo gave some of his proceeds to the poor, which is more than you can say for the existing Columbian elite.

@Nude_Bikergirl
Upwards of a quarter of the population died during the 5 or so years of his rule so you can bet the strongest opponents to the regime would have been swept up in that.
Do you have a non-imperialist source to back that up?

-The nationalism and temporary relevance he created even if it was contextual and resulted in the suicidal decision to make war on Vietnam.
It was Vietnam which declared war on Cambodia, not vice versa. The Vietnamese wanted to incorporate Cambodia into an Indochina federation with the Vietnamese as the leading partner.

@farquit
Chomsky is an anti-communist who hates Pot Pot along with all other reformers and revolutionaries from the Global South, so not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@Techpill
Not an argument Kike Schlomo.

takes2long
takes2long

@StonedTime
you can deduce that a significant proportion of the population is significant about the khmer rouge period
Nigger the article literally says that there is only a steady trickle of people going to the grave site, hiw the fuck is that a "significant" proportion of the population?

Methshot
Methshot

@StonedTime
do you have a non-imperialist source to back that up
Ben Kiernan's "the pol pot regime"

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@PurpleCharger
I guess I figured you Cambodians are subhumans, and this just proves it here.

SniperGod
SniperGod

Plenty of people worship and revere old tyrants and demonic individuals especially if their cause was lost, thus vindicating them in their eyes. That doesn't mean they didn't commit crimes. The holocaust very much happened despite modern worship of Hitler.
The people who do this are called Betas or Sheeple. They get an immense feeling of satisfaction and achievement at the idea of pleasing and placating horrible people. Its these kind of people that you can thank for the rise and inhuman crimes of these tyrants

RumChicken
RumChicken

@StonedTime
You forgot to provide a source for your claims of many people missing the Khmer Rouge era.

Do you have a non-imperialist source to back that up?
Sure
Genocide in Cambodia : Documents from the Trial of Pol Pot and Ieng Sary (2000) pages.465 and 506.

It was Vietnam which declared war on Cambodia, not vice versa. The Vietnamese wanted to incorporate Cambodia into an Indochina federation with the Vietnamese as the leading partner.

The invasion happened after Pol Pot sent his forces across the borders and started slaughtering Vietnamese villagers and capturing towns as well as ethnic Vietnamese in the border regions.

Sending in soldiers to occupy your neighbors territory and slaughter its populace is a defacto deceleration of war, wouldnt you agree?

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@takes2long
There will be a "steady trickle" of people no matter what, because otherwise it would be a chaotic clusterfuck. There is also a "steady trickle" of people trying to see Lenin in Moscow or Mao in Beijing, that doesn't tell you anything about the people's attitudes towards those leaders.

@Methshot
In 1994, Kiernan was awarded a $499,000 grant by Congress to help the Cambodian government document the Khmer Rouge's abuses.
Definitely an unbiased source... A $500,000 cash bribe from the US Gov. definitely wouldn't influence someone's writings about anti-imperialist Global South reformers/revolutionaries

Also the reviews for his book are mostly pretty bad, see pic related.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@PurpleCharger
where the fuck is the meme image is this

King_Martha
King_Martha

@RumChicken
Genocide in Cambodia : Documents from the Trial of Pol Pot and Ieng Sary (2000) pages.465 and 506.
From what I understand, this is a collection of testimonies from alleged Khmer Rouge victims. Testimonies are unreliable and can easily be distorted to support preconceived narratives.

Sending in soldiers to occupy your neighbors territory and slaughter its populace is a defacto deceleration of war, wouldnt you agree?
Prior to this, the Vietnamese were sending spies and agents into Cambodia to overthrow the government and puppet the country. Pol Pot's reaction was extreme and perhaps unwise in hindsight, but at the time he was just protecting his nation from foreign aggression.

Inmate
Inmate

@Fuzzy_Logic
that diesn't tell you anything about people's attitudes towards the leaders
Exactly. The trickle of people coming to visit his grave is not enough to say that a significant proportion of the population actually likes him

in 1994, kiernan was awarded a cash grant ti study the khmer rouge
And? You realize that the government chose him because he would have been the least biased out of all the historians they could have chose? If you'd actually read that wikipedia article, you would have seen that Kiernan was originally pro-rouge. This isn't even relevant, because he didn't collect any US government money when he wrote his book.
the reviews for his book are pretty bad
Actually its a four out of five on amazon, but nice try cherry picking that one review.
testimonies are pretty innacurate
Generally speaking, when you have a massive amount of testimonies that all corroborate with each other, that means they can be trusted. Have you read the book? Would you like to comment on any of the specific testimonies presented within? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Fuzzy_Logic
@Inmate
rekt

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@King_Martha
from what i understan, this is a collection of testimonies from alleged victims
So you understand literally nothing about it, then? There are many documents listed within that book that deal with investigations of the actual mass graves themselves, its just as much testimony as it is actual hard evidence.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@King_Martha
From what I understand...
Its documents from the trial which whilst that does include testimonies - from both sides- it also includes the final judgement of the court.

Bear in mind you yourself are relying heavily on testimonies.

Prior to this, the Vietnamese were sending spies and agents into Cambodia to overthrow the government and puppet the country.
Do you have a good source on this? From what Ive read Vietnam only started wanting to change the regime after its repeated attacks, massacres an incursions - remembering that Pol Pot sent his army to seize a Vietnamese Island the day after Saigon fell.

Pol Pot's reaction was extreme and perhaps unwise in hindsight, but at the time he was just protecting his nation from foreign aggression.

You could make that argument if his actions consisted of expelling or arresting foreign agents but tell me how did it make sense to cross the Vietnamese border, seize territory and then start slaughtering the inhabitants on the basis of their ethnicity? Remembering that this is the country which threw out France and the US coalition.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Stupidasole
stop wearing glasses

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@BinaryMan
Do you have a good source on this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uyIlKnITho

5mileys
5mileys

@GoogleCat
What? Seville was always one of Francos most popular areas of support. His legacy is controversial among Spaniards today but generally in Seville he's more respected than reviled

iluvmen
iluvmen

@PurpleCharger
@Lord_Tryzalot
Nationalism is hell of a drug.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@King_Martha
Pol Pot's reaction was extreme and perhaps unwise
Massacring an entire Vietnamese villiage was "perhaps unwise"? Not even the most ardent burger would think MyLai in those terms

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@PurpleCharger
He was the only actual, literal communist who ever existed. None of the other commies had the guts to abolish money or wage labor.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@BlogWobbles
Why did he collude with capitalists and Reagan then when his regime fell?

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@Gigastrength
Your source - an anonymous video - doesnt actually provide evidence of Vietnamese attempting to subvert/take over Cambodia prior to Cambodian hostilities just that the leadership suspected it.

Where it gets dishonest is that it cites the Vietnamese attack of the Koh Tang Islands as proof of their desires to take over Cambodia. It fails to mention that the Vietnamese only invaded one month after Pol Pots troops crossed the border seized the island Thổ Chu and started massacring native Vietnamese - 513 of which were taken to the island of Koh Tang to be executed.

So not only had Pol Pot invaded Vietnam before this event the Vietnamese were they attacking a island that was used as a death camp.

takes2long
takes2long

Has an OP ever gotten BTFO'd this hard?

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@w8t4u
The Times is not journalism

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Carnalpleasure
Yes it is

RavySnake
RavySnake

@Carnalpleasure
take my (You)

takes2long
takes2long

In asia, tyrants are adored.
The more terrible the tyrant,

the more his memory is cherished.
Alexander the great, timur...

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

I was actually about to post a thread asking whether there are Pol Pot apologists and it looks like I got my answer.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@GoogleCat
Syria is socialist
Pinochet's regime was fascist
Most Franco supporters are wealthy elites
Lol, this has to be bait, right?

askme
askme

@PurpleCharger
Because to Cambodians

Local Leaders (even if they are assholes) > Vietnamese.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Ignoramus
Its slightly more complex, they tend more to be the bog standard hyper anti imperialist types rather than actual advocates of his bizzare mixture of collectivism, nationalism and primitivism.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

Not sure about him.
I know he was a communist so I'm immediately skeptical.
Besides that I have never looked into Khmer with great detail.
From what it appears, it was anarchy and the dictators only managed to maintain power by progressively singling out foreign influence as a target which only added to carnage.
With the collapse of infrastructure came the inevitable liquidation of millions as the capacity of the state to provide for It's populace was severely diminished.

Seems like one of the worst failures if communism to boot.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@GoogleCat

BBC
Billionaire owned

lolwut

Skullbone
Skullbone

@TreeEater
Well I guess the government does make billions in revenue

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