S'up everyone, new here...

S'up everyone, new here, came from /v/ (I can feel the rolling eyes already) and I've been attending to a gym for one month now.

Thing is, I've read the sticky many times thinking how cool it'd be to start gaining muscle and losing weight. I've started in this gym and they came with this "novice program" full of machines that they told me to do for this month to gain "basic" strenght I guess? And starting with other stuff.

Then, I told them to design a program for me, with the objective of losing weight and gaining some muscle (or do both?) and they gave me pretty much the same routine, but with some more cardio. And I'd really like to start with the weights already, but it feels like the gym guys want me to keep going with the machines.

Question is, should I keep doing machines and cardio or should I jump to the weights already? Is it dangerous to start without someone teaching me or can I go with just the videos from the sticky and do a good enough job? Or will I hurt myself?

tl;dr Do I keep exercising with the machines or do I start the weights by my own?

depends how fat you are

Fit will not give you a single answer on machines or not.

There is a school, to which I personally subscribe, that almost all machines are bro science and that you should basically be doing only freeweights. The theory is that it improves natural movements and stability.

If you want to go down that path, buy a good beginner book on the subject (New Rules of Lifting is my favorite, people also like Starting Strength). Another popular routine is Strong Lifts 5x5 but if you're really new I think you should start with SS or NROL for 2-12 months first. Don't take the book as gospel, but as a starting point.

Finally, form does matter and is more important with free wights. If you can afford it, pay for a personal trainer for a session or two. Don't let them push you around, just say "I'm doing these lifts and I need you to teach me proper form." If you can't afford a trainer you can get by with videos, asking gym bros to check your form, and reading a lot (Strong Lifts and Starting Strength have a lot of detail on form for some basic lifts).

Most importantly, you should do what motivates you. Any program you stick with consistently is better than the one you don't. Sounds like you're getting antsy with machines so switch to a free weight program.

Good luck.

I'm 196,211 lbs (89 KG) and I'm five feet and 10.1 inches tall.

There are personal trainers at the gym I'm atending but they don't seem too interested in teaching how to lift weights, since everytime I tell them I'd like to start with that, they say machines are way better.

Same guy. Also adding:

The jury is still out on losing weight while building muscle. Most guys, especially body builders, believe in bulking for muscle and cutting for fat loss. Research generally shows that it is physiologically hard, except for beginners, to gain fat and lose muscle. But some guys say they have no problem combining cardio and strength, and some research shows that doing cardio right after strength works well. I'm not persuaded by the science either way. FWIW I do cardio after my strength and find I make progress in both. And lifting itself is a calorie burner during and after workout.

If you're overweight you can and should be trying to lose wight as priority number 1. Watch your calories and macros and do cardio, even if it slows your strength gainz.

>There are personal trainers at the gym I'm atending but they don't seem too interested in teaching how to lift weights, since everytime I tell them I'd like to start with that, they say machines are way better.
That's fine, they subscribe to that school. But if you feel that isn't for you you need to be more assertive. You're asking them "how do I train" and they're giving you the answer they sincerely believe. But if you say "I'm starting a new program and I would like you to teach me proper squat form" they should do what you want. You're the customer. If not find another trainer or improvise. It's like when you go to Best Buy, there's a difference between telling them "I'm thinking about buying a TV" and I'm looking for the Panasonic TBZ5000"

The 'personal trainers' at your gym are likely minimum wagers who took a weekend certification. They probably only barely understand how to do the basic barbell exercises fractionally better than you do.

There's exceptions of course, but that's the norm.

The reason machines are so popular in gyms is because they're easy to use (and thus easy to teach) and high floor turnover. If you can hire a high schooler to set the pin in the machine and then tell the gym user to do two sets to failure on each one, they'll be out in half an hour and someone else can use that floorspace, an the gym can make more money.

Actual barbell routines require a certain amount of coaching to learn correct form, and can take quite a long time as heavy sets can sometimes require more than ten minutes to recover from. If you're a company running your business model on tonnage, that's not a good strategy.

Yeah, this to. I assumed your gym had well-trained trainers because mine does, but there's no government oversight. Ask for their credentials, and if they aren't good find someone on the side who can teach you. (Your gym probably won't let outsiders come give lessons there).

Was in the same situation as you.
Shitty commercial gym with idiot staff.
Put me and my bro on some machine routine to "build up strength".
They told us not to go to the free weight area yet but to use machines instead. They actually scared off my bro enough so that it took me like 7 months to get him into free weights.
We've been making more gains in 3 weeks of deadlifting, benching and overall free weight lifting than in 7 months of bitch weight machines.

If you have someone to look over your form I'd say go for it. Just talk to the big guys.

Is that coaching necessary even with the most basic routines? It's not like I want to get really big, I just want to be in good shape.

I kinda feel like I'm too shy for that. Could try though, but it's something I'd like to do on my own.

Bro, you've got all the information you need in this thread.

This guy is right . Form matters. Even with moderate weight you can hurt your back on deads and squats, shoulders on presses and pulls. And good form improves gains
.
Like I said above, the EASIEST way to get that is from a good trainer. If you don't have access to a good trainer use books and videos. And there's literally nothing wrong with saying to someone in the gym "hey, can you watch this dead and tell me if my form looks OK? I feel like I'm rounding my back." We're all there to make gains, nobody gets bigger by being a dick.

Or why don't you just tel us the answers you want to hear and we can say that and put the thread to bed?

Stay on Starting Strength or SL or a 5x5 routine or any routine that keeps reps to ~6 a set. You want to build strength while on the fat loss journey. Cardio should be on off days only, 2 days of cardio is good, 3 days of lifting is minimal.

After you lose weight, youll notice the nooby definition, then you switch to a intermediate program to grow like a fucking leaf.

Then I'll watch all the videos from the sticky to know how it's suposed to look and ask the guys from there if I'm doing well.

Also, this being my actual shape and if I want to lose weight, should I start with weights now or wait until I lose some of that weight?

There's nothing inherently wrong with machines OP it's just that free weights allow you to build up your stabliser muscles easiers where as with machines they'd support you through the lift

That got answered even before I asked it.

Thanks Veeky Forums, hope to see you soon with some results.

Read Starting Strength to learn the lifts and you'll never have to ask your shitty gym staff for anything again, other than a spot on bench press or to take a form check video for you to post elsewhere

That's how I started

I diametrically disagree. If you're a total noob you should start with more traditional 2x15 or 3x15, like NROL. I also think you should do cardio and do it right after lifting if possible.

This just goes to show that there's no consensus on these things. Get a program you like and stick with it.

keep doing machines, I don't want any more of you faggots making me wait for the squat rack.

The posters in this thread are being dreadfully nice, so let me cut the shit and tell it like it is:

Machines are a joke, and your shitty commercial gym is perpetuating said joke in order to profit off the backs of poor sods like you who want to look good and feel good but don't know how. There's a reason you mire the guys at bodybuilding gyms and laugh at the ones at commercial gyms and that's because bodybuilding gyms and powerlifting gyms do shit properly and have a minimal number of machines.

Avoid machines except for a few key exercises and focus on learning good barbell form. Train movements, not muscles.

I am this guy This is bullshit because:
A) You don't need to go beyond the basic barbell lifts to yield huge gains when starting out
B) Telling someone new to the lifts to do a high number of reps will encourage form breakdown from fatigue throughout the set and can easily dial in lifting with shit form

Keeping the big lifts to lower reps with challenging weight keeps your technique dialed in and helps to ingrain the proper movement patterns

That being said
>traditional
How is that traditional? 15 reps is way too high reps for anything past isolations

I would also bet that you are weak af

But what about the big guys I see doing machines?

Are they all in it?

Thanks, just got the ebook. I think I'll concentrate on cardio and machines a bit more (long enough to see I don't progress enough with them) while I read this and start with fresh weights at the turn of the year.

It's been a long time since read SS. Great book, especially to master form without a trainer. I mentioned it in my first reply. Does he not start with higher reps to build form? Been a long time since I read his routines. Happy to retract my statement that higher rep sets are traditional if incorrect. That's how I started, with professional athletic coaching and how I recall many beginner guides starting. My main point is that SL 5x5 just seems too hardcore, to me, for a total newbie. SS is way better.

I don't know why you think I'm weak or feel a need to go a hominem. I'm not talking about the best program period, I'm talking about as a place to start. Noobs will make gains whatever they do. When I started I did higher rep sets WITH LOWER WEIGHT. It helped ingrain form and improved my endurance. It's also better for losing weight, which OP needs to do.

>A) You don't need to go beyond the basic barbell lifts to yield huge gains when starting out
I don't disagree with this.

>Keeping the big lifts to lower reps with challenging weight keeps your technique dialed in and helps to ingrain the proper movement patterns
I disagree with this. Seeing people I've worked out with or near there is zero correlation between number of reps an form. I've seen plenty of low rep sets heading for snap city.

my god this thread is a shit show.

Stick with the machines for 6 weeks and then start incorporating the main lifts into your workout. It's extremely important that you do the main lifts with proper form. I cannot stretch this enough. Therefore it is vital that you start with a weight you are comfortable with. The machines will help you get to that strength level required for that weight.

When I started I could do free weight lifts, but not without risking injury and proper form. I used machines until I could. This is what your trainer already recommended and so do I. Those six weeks literally fly by. Don't worry about it.

>SL just seems way to hardcore
>SS is way better
Then you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. The differences between the 2 are minimal, SL is just a cheap knockoff of SS with much less instruction given

>I don't know why you think I'm weak or feel a need to do aD hominem
Because it's fucking true and you probably have no business giving advice when you're weak yourself
>I'm not talking about the best program period, I'm talking about as a place to start
Waste of text. I literally recommended reading SS as a place to start, I didn't necessarily even recommend any program (just heavily implied SS). My standard advice is 'read SS, even if you don't want to do the program. The knowledge gained from the book is invaluable'
>Noobs will make gains whatever they do
Agreed. But might as well learn how to do heavy lifts safely with intensity first, while gaining overall strength as fast as possible
>[higher reps] also better for losing weight
Bullshit. Losing weight is primarily a matter of diet. Increasing your rep range a bit on some exercises isn't going to do shit for weight loss, absolutely 0 if there is a decrease in intensity anyways

>I disagree with this
>plenty of low rep sets heading for snap city
Not for people just starting out and lifting light weights and fucking LEARNING how to do them at the same time anyways

tl;dr
You're a jackass, don't give shit advice. Especially if you're a shit body

Inclined walk or weighted walks after lifting was a big help when trying to lose weight, SS is a great foundation program too OP

best of luck

>do machines before using the barbell
what are dumbbells

Hey Greg from Kino body here what you should do is download my ebook and get on my warrior shred program or you can do the Greek God program either way you will get great results and look like me in a matter of months if you commit to it.

When I first started lifting I hired a trainer for a couple months. I wouldn't have made many gains without this dude telling me what the fuck to do. Having said that, if you follow the stickies exactly, make sure your form is good, lift the correct amount of weight, and keep on your diet you should see gains. If you're a skinny fuck, stick to body weight shit like pushups, dips, pull-ups, and eventually you'll move to weight. If you're a fat fuck and you're weak, then yes maybe stick to those machines so you don't hurt yourself fatty.

A lot of you guys recommend losing weight first before starting on a strength program

but is this still true if you're a skinny fat guy with a huge fucking gut but no fat anywhere else?

I'm 5'8 and 150, so I'm definitely not heavy, but I have at least 25% BF all in the gut.

Cardio first before I start strength? Or can I start lifting?

how much is a trainer anyway? do they try to keep hassling you once you've gotten the form down?

I'd imagine they want every client to be long term

Mark Rippetoe has a fantastic program called starting strength which is a perfect introduction to weightlifting. I'd recommend starting with that. Look into eating at a surplus to build muscle too, this is what he recommends. When you have some mass you can cut and get rid of your fat.

It's actually better to just lift and diet than it is to lose weight first.

If you're fat, your body is already in an anabolic state. You don't really need to do anything other than lift to shift the balance from fat gain to muscle gain, and the excess activity coupled with some dietary cleanup (i.e. drop the soda and cut the portion sizes a bit) will help burn the fat off anyway.

The big guys using the machines are either

(a) experienced enough to know when using them can supplement the core of their program

(b) roided up know nothing fuckwits

Steroids amplify and alter the effects of training to the point that doing basically /anything/ will cause gains, including shitty machine work. This is also true for a few insanely genetically gifted people, who respond to training in a different way because they're literally working with different tools to the rest of us.

For us mortals, the only consistently viable way to get stronger, gain muscle, strength, and improve your health by doing squats, deadlifts, presses, bench presses, and the olympic lifts if you're committed/insane for heavy sets of five or there abouts.

a lot. I think I payed around 50 bucks a week for 2 sessions. A good trainer is going to constantly hassle you about fucking everything. Did you do your cardio? Did you eat correctly? Did you go to the gym over the weekend? Fuck. That's what you're paying him for tho

hey OP listen to me because I have many years of experience training with both free weights and machines

first thing is they are actually a different thing. strong lifts in free weights translates to some degree to strong weights in machines but the other way around there is much less carry over. so if you care about powerlifting you should start with free weights asap

both machines and free weights have their advantages and disadvantages. instead of going into detail here, let me recommend you: do squats and do deadlifts. they are a must do and can't be replaced by machines

then the question is how good are the machines in your gym. if they are good you can pretty much replace everything else with them. it is safer, it is easier and it is better for building muscle mass. the only issue is the low carry over to free weights. but for exercises like curls you should always use machines if possible because they have equal force at every angle, you can have a larger range of motion and much better contraction. this applies to isolation exercises in general: do machines. and for compound movements do both free weights and machines. such as squat AND leg press. bench AND chest press

but again, the most important factor for machine vs free weight is the quality of the machines. if they are bad don't use them

and since you are still a beginner, don't worry too much about the details. the first thing you should do is try out everything in your gym and see what you like and what works for you. then keep doing those things. I did it like that, first 2-3 years I tried out all the different things and afterwards I stuck with the same exercises and the results are great

experience is the most important factor in weightlifting in general. and you only gain experience by trying out new things, by trial and error. that way you will learn how everything works. I have so much experience now that if I encounter an issue, I immediately know what adjustments to make

how do you tell bad machines from good ones?

that's where experience matters. by now I can tell at first glance

does the machine allow you to perform the exercise properly (you can fully hit the muscles) and comfortably (no risk of injury, you can go higher weights and push your limits)? if yes it is a good machine

a simple way to tell if a machine is good is to do it. if it feels good it is a good machine. if it doesn't feel good it is a bad one

an other way to tell is to look at its quality. if the machine is small and looks cheap it is probably bad