Can you explain to me why communism has never worked?

Snarelure
Snarelure

Can you explain to me why communism has never worked?

All urls found in this thread:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value#LTV_and_the_labor_process
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/18/millennials-earn-8000-pounds-less-in-their-20s-than-predecessors
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/new_socialism.pdf
SniperGod
SniperGod

@Snarelure
Marxism is not applicable to real world. For example in the real world, rich = powerful while poor = powerless. But in Marxism, the mom and pop store owner is a member of the ruling class, while the millionaire is a member of the exploited class just because he earns a salary and doesn't own means of production.
It's almost comical how detached from reality marxism is.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Snarelure
DUDE, LIKE, CLASS IS THE ONLY DIVIDING LINE AND THINGS LIKE CULTURE, RELIGION, LANGUAGE AND SEX DONT MATTER!

WHAT IF LIKE, DUDE HOLD UP, WHAT IF, WE CREATED A STATELESS SOCIETY BY CREATING THE MOST CENTRALIZED FORM OF GOVERNMENT EVER?

IF YOU OWN SOMETHING, IT MEANS YOURE AN OPPRESSIVE ASSHOLE!

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

It's unnatural.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@SniperGod
This. Messi would be le exploited proletarian according to marxism.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

You can't redistribute unequal wealth. A million dollars makes one man rich, but it only gives one million people 1 dollar. If you could theoretically create everything a person needed to be happy, from food to goods to land to reproductive partners, then communism would be able to work. Otherwise, you're looking at a society that's forced to answer a question, "Are you willing to give up all your capital in order to redistribute it to everyone else equally?"

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@JunkTop
DUDE, LIKE, CLASS IS THE ONLY DIVIDING LINE AND THINGS LIKE CULTURE, RELIGION, LANGUAGE AND SEX DONT MATTER!
I always found this to be the most autistic component of Marxism. It's idiotically shallow to reduce all of human relations and culture to a single thing like class.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Snarelure
It always ends with the attention whore leader that demands a communist revolution ending up as a self-centered dictator and all of his lackeys are incompetent retards that don't know how to properly run a country.

5mileys
5mileys

@Snarelure
It worked, it just worked worse than it's main competitor.

@CodeBuns
That's a strawman, senpai. Marxism has so many flaws, there's no need to create strawmen.

askme
askme

@Snarelure
I work in the lobster fishing industry.
We want to sell at a higher price, and our buyers want to buy at a low price. Each of our buyers are in competition with eachother; to make a profit, they have to be able to buy our lobsters in order to sell them abroad; if they can't buy them, then they can't sell. Let's say that everyone wants to buy 9$ (a pound) lobsters; but if one lobster processing plant wants to buy them at 10$, then that means more money for us, and more money for them; but the only reason they would offer that much money is because they know they can afford to risk that much to turn a profit.
In the end, we're happy, because there's a lot of competition.

If there's only one government subsidized lobster processing plant, then they're the only ones we're allowed to sell to; so we either keep our lobsters or sell at whatever price they make up in their heads. The price may inevitably be too much for someone to bother selling at, which would put us out of business, because nobody wants to work for free. Back then, my grandfather had to work to put food on the table; now we have the luxury of working to provide other things that we want.

I'm not a capitalist.. But Communism is just stupid.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Snarelure
Because nobody is going to bust their ass for the same fucking money as the guy who sleeps on the job all fucking day.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@SniperGod
@JunkTop
That's bullshit though.

@Snarelure
It had only two real chances, in China and Russia.
They both failed because of the basic mistake of Marxism-Leninism, the institution of a bureaucratic ruling class.

In other cases, lack of communists is the reason, which can be explained itself by a combination of ideological, material and violent domination of the capitalists.

Evilember
Evilember

@New_Cliche
Communism isn't about sharing the wealth equally but about owning it communally, as the name indicates.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Evilember
Okay, we all own the wealth communally. How doe we split the profits?

TechHater
TechHater

@RumChicken
According to the needs as much as possible.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Snarelure
Its ANOTHER communism thread
Almost as tedious and overdone as the Nazi “what-if” threads

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Yes I can actually. It deals with the evolution of property relations. The reason why private property is more efficient than anything else, is because human beings care about things they own. Why they do, is irrelevant to this discussion, but Communism imagines a scenario where it is possible to work and use production without owning it, and still feel as though you are working for yourself. Which is ridiculous.

If everyone owns something, it actually means that nobody own anything.

Now, I'm going to predict that certain communists/trotskyites/anarcho-syndicalists will say that there is a difference between personal and private property, but in reality, there is not. If I own a bicycle, and rent it to my friend, I have essentially transformed my bicycle from personal to private property, according to them, and I have also made my friend working class, and I am exploiting him by definition.

Now this hypothetical, which seems ridiculous, begs the question, who is going to stop me from transforming personal property into private property? Men with guns? The state?

If nobody stops me, the communist dream ends. If someone stops me with force, I no longer live in the supposed society that communists say will exist in the future, because force will no longer be necessary according to them, because class does not exist.

Yes, I am drunk, and I am ranting. Critique my answer if you will.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Methnerd
That's bullshit though.
So this is the power of Marxist argumentation .... whoah

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Snarelure
Works in what sense? State control of the economy results in breadlines and starvation for people the government doesn't like.

Are you asking why it didn't take off in developed economies and societies that might have been able to avoid the above problem by some means? The answer there is because the ruling class isn't stupid, and will part with some of their wealth in order preserve the greater sum of said wealth and their other assorted privileges.

There is no way for a marxist revolution to succeed against the modern state because the modern state can effortlessly bribe the better part of the revolutionaries with assorted wealth, goods and services.

Methshot
Methshot

@TechHater
Alright, what does that mean? If I'm healthy and don't need anything other than my daily allotment, I don't get anything? What is my daily allotment?

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@Snarelure
define communism
and give your standard for what an ideology needs to do to "work"

Evilember
Evilember

"you just dont get it! Marxism seeks to create a stateless society!"

marxist also HATE libertarians who seek to role back the reach of government, often telling them to go to somalia if they want a society like that

a free market wont emerge in a completely stateless free society

the vanguard of the revolution and strict government control of regulation will somehow just magically go away and create "real" communism

"that wasnt real communism because it didnt work!"

Flameblow
Flameblow

@New_Cliche
who is going to stop me from transforming personal property into private property?
At first, men with or without guns, then once things start settling, people you demand money from, and finally yourself when there's no more incentive to make a profit on other people's activities.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Evilember
Marxists and Anarchists think capitalism only survives because the state keeps it alive
Ancaps want to abolish the state
Marxists get mad at them
Never understood why. Shouldn't they see them as useful idiots for their goals at worst? Sounds like Marxists themselves aren't very convinced about the doctrines of Marxism.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@Methshot
Individuals needs should be identified by the community. When basic needs are met then surplus productivity is redirected to providing additional services and stuff.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@CodeBuns
Individuals needs should be identified by the community
What if those needs aren't feasible? What if the community wants to have great education and great healthcare and iPhones for all?

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Flameblow
Yeah but the motive for profit will never stop existing, because profit is simply the material reflection of the consequences of your creative production.

Everyone wants something in return for every action they do, else they wouldn't do it, it doesn't matter if it's going to the gym to lift weights, or if it is going to a factory job. Human beings seek an existence which is better than the one they had the day before. The surplus value(to borrow a Marxist term), of a human beings' actions isn't simply the material wealth accumulated, it is the consequences of goal-oriented behavior, which can be anything from affection with a spouse to the fact that the tree you planted in a garden is sprouting.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Snarelure
Marx has already won
Name a modern thinker who has had more influence on the humanities than him

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Illusionz
Hegel. Influenced Marx too.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@LuckyDusty
Shouldn't they see them as useful idiots for their goals at worst?
We would if they had a shot at reaching their goal.
But as it is now they just give support to conservatives who cut down on the states' assistance to the workers and reinforce their assistance to the capitalists.
They're dangerous idiots.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Ignoramus
The community defines its priorities.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@Need_TLC
@Illusionz
Thales, if we're giving out retroactive credit. There wouldn't be Philosophy without him.

If not, then Socrates, whose philosophies influenced everyone from Jesus to Marx himself.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@SniperGod
while the millionaire is a member of the exploited class just because he earns a salary and doesn't own means of production.

He oisn't a victim, he's still benefiting from exploitation, just not exploiting himself unless he owns the MoP.

@JunkTop
DUDE, LIKE, CLASS IS THE ONLY DIVIDING LINE AND THINGS LIKE CULTURE, RELIGION, LANGUAGE AND SEX DONT MATTER!

Read Adorno.

WHAT IF LIKE, DUDE HOLD UP, WHAT IF, WE CREATED A STATELESS SOCIETY BY CREATING THE MOST CENTRALIZED FORM OF GOVERNMENT EVER?

That's the Leninist System. read Lenin's 'The state and revolution' before you go off on shit you don't get.

IF YOU OWN SOMETHING, IT MEANS YOURE AN OPPRESSIVE ASSHOLE!

Personal property =/= private property

@PurpleCharger
Primitive Communism existed prior to communism.

@New_Cliche
Communism isn't wealth redistribution, it's the movement away from the concept of wealth itself to direct democracy.

@Soft_member
There is truth in this.

@askme
This is such a stupid analogy I'll give it it's own response.

@lostmypassword
Google marx's labour theory of value. communism isn't getting paid the same.

@Methnerd
They both failed because of the basic mistake of Marxism-Leninism, the institution of a bureaucratic ruling class.

This is a meme. I'll explain why communism failed later on.

@kizzmybutt
Works in what sense? State control of the economy results in breadlines and starvation for people the government doesn't like.

Leninism isn't communism.

@Evilember
marxist also HATE libertarians who seek to role back the reach of government, often telling them to go to somalia if they want a society like that

Because Private Corporate power has no differentiation from state power.

a free market wont emerge in a completely stateless free society

Why would anyone choose to work under a private business over a coop in this society, and be paid less?

1/2

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Spamalot
Okay, that's great, but what if people want something that isn't physically feasible? What if the Community was America?

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Need_TLC
Fair point, actually, though I might contend that Marx has specifically influenced the field of History more than Hegel.
Was expecting someone to reply something edgy and blatantly false before something reasonable.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@viagrandad
Yeah Socrates is a Big Deal to this day but I qualified with "modern".

Inmate
Inmate

@Bidwell
Oh, that's garbage then.

idontknow
idontknow

@5mileys
were gladiators apart of the proletariot?
Careful, Marx said they were...

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@haveahappyday
read equally retarded neo-marxist bullshit
how does turning marxism from class struggle to the SJW shit we have now any better user?

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Illusionz
David Hume

Methshot
Methshot

@Snarelure

Literal fascist empires from the US to UK to Germany waging war to stop it.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

2/2
@Evilember
the vanguard of the revolution and strict government control of regulation will somehow just magically go away and create "real" communism

Understand the theory of post-scarcity and automation. Lenin didn't need to ensure the State would dissolve, technology ensured it.

@Snarelure
Essentially, the only form of Socialism applied has been Marxist-Leninism, AKA The planned Economy, state control model most see as Socialism.

It's very good at industrializing societies because the high degree of centralism allows fora stunning coordination of resources, quickly. There's a clear need 'i.e. 50,000 tons of steel', and a clear goal i.e. 'A Skyscraper'.

Unfortunately, it all collapses at the consumer Market. You can't predict the actual needs of the people, the consumer goods required,a nd thew ages needed to ensure those consumer goods are adequately consumed in any way without insane calculations. This in turn leads to an inefficient market system. hence why the USSR was fucked after the 50's, the expansion promised so much. And it gave so little.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@kizzmybutt
Fuck off Idpol

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Stupidasole
@Stupidasole
For most workers, under a socialist or communist system, the return they get from their production is greater than they do in a capitalist system.

The fact that capitalism works proves that humans aren't so keen on individual profit.

Evilember
Evilember

@Snarelure
It only works in very small communities. As soon as you get large industrialized societies the you need more centralized governing along with some measure of economic freedom in order to properly allocate resources.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@haveahappyday
He oisn't a victim, he's still benefiting from exploitation, just not exploiting himself unless he owns the MoP.
He's on a salary therefore selling his labor to the capitalist, therefore he's the exploited class alienated from the fruits of his labor. In a communist world, Lebron James would be a worker-owner of the NBA, in a capitalist work he owns nothing and is being paid by Dan Gilbert who rakes in hefty profit margins.
This is how it works in the Marxist framework.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@Burnblaze
The fact that capitalism works proves that humans aren't so keen on individual profit.

But capitalism is literally reliant on either extreme social democracy, keynesian new deal economics that it might as well be socialism, or exploitative liberalism, you bonehead.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Burnblaze
For most workers, under a socialist or communist system, the return they get from their production is greater than they do in a capitalist system.

The fact that capitalism works proves that humans aren't so keen on individual profit.

What in the actual fuck is this revisionism I am reading?

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@RavySnake
But capitalism is literally reliant on either extreme social democracy, keynesian new deal economics that it might as well be socialism, or exploitative liberalism, you bonehead.

You're outright retarded. Castrate yourself for the sake of humanity.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@haveahappyday
Primitive Communism existed prior to communism.

I don't know much about cavemen societies but anprim is a relatively new invention. Hierarchies were always a thing. Pre-marxist communism like the one supported by Robert Owen failed horribly for predictable reasons and it wasn't even bothered by anyone.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@LuckyDusty
Wow, clever response.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Sharpcharm
literally create ID politics
tell others to fuck off for calling it our RIGHT AFTER you shilled it
amazing

eGremlin
eGremlin

@SomethingNew
They die trying I guess ? At least they made the decision themselves.
But I don't see what you are thinking of.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@ZeroReborn
Where?

JunkTop
JunkTop

@VisualMaster
expecting a normal response to his completely retarded comment

Jesus christ the state of millennials.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@StonedTime
A 15 second google would actually explain hat Marx meant by Primitive Communism, in that he referred to the original hunter gatherer societies of common ownership, as seen in Native Tribes.

@JunkTop
Because you don't know what you're talking about.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Burnblaze
For most workers, under a socialist or communist system, the return they get from their production is greater than they do in a capitalist system
That's true in old style feudalist systems like Russia, where 75% of the populace is a class of poor as dirt serfs. Yes, they get more individually if they get to keep all their turnips than if they had to donate 65% of them to the Tsar. It's less true in post industrialized societies that have compromised and adopted socialist conventions, like minimum wage and social security. In those societies, you get more from working for a company than your menial labor would materialize in and of itself.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@GoogleCat
Those are lovely and all, but most would still prefer to work under a cooperative. Since they receive more for their hours.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@GoogleCat
Interesting that you skipped from feudal societies to post-industrial
What about industrial societies?

Illusionz
Illusionz

lay out precise contradictions within marxism and point to its numerous pitfalls and failures and why it always has, and always will, fail
"hurr read [insert marxist shill]" instead of any actual counter argument
leftypol cant argue at all and in all likelyhood, they have no fucking clue what they are shilling. They always just respond with "read marx!" even though they clearly havent themselves since they cant articulate any of his points to defend it from criticism

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@Firespawn
If he's making millions, then the high likelihood is that he's making more for his labour than he should, and another worker is paying for it. he's still benefiting from exploitation.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@Illusionz
Because your points are always 'le real communism hasn't been tried xddd throw leftist cucks from helicopters'.

You are rarely, if ever, able to debate economics.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@RavySnake
extreme social democracy
Extreme in your skewed frame of reference. Trump, Merkel, May, Macron and the rest are not social democrats and neither were Obama, Schroeder, Blair, Hollande.
And still capitalists accumulate personal wealth from other people's work.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Ignoramus
What about industrial societies
They organize strikes to secure those socialist policies. Marx was right when he said that people in industrialized societies would rebel, but they didn't institute Communism, they instituted Unions.
Only the dregs of the world, where the bulk of people are desperately poor, see the ruins of Communism as a boon, because living in a shack is better than living on the street

girlDog
girlDog

@Lunatick
That didnt happen user. You are the one and only person to even mention helicopters now. Like I said, youre all idiots who have no real idea what you even pretend to believe which is why you cant articulate any argument to save your life. This is why you can only respond with "read marx!" as if this answers the question and it also shows you, at the very least, lack the cognitive ability to digest what Marx was saying and then argue it back at those who criticize it, in your own words.

stop engaging in sophistry

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Lord_Tryzalot
I'm not referring to Neo-Liberal politicians such as them. The welfare state hasn't expanded since 1973.

And still capitalists accumulate personal wealth from other people's work.

Doesn't mean their system will continue to function, increasing pay and unionization in such a society essentially means the capitalists are at the mercy of the workers.

farquit
farquit

@Spamalot
Marx died a bit early but I'm glad Engels lived long enough to see how wrong he was and how his predictions failed.

takes2long
takes2long

@girlDog
There hasn't been a legitimate criticism in this thread though,w hich hasn't been responded to.

stop telling me to read the central framework on a theory before I criticize that theory!

You are dumb lol

Bidwell
Bidwell

@farquit
How, lol?

massdebater
massdebater

@Fried_Sushi
No, he isn't. That's not Marxist theory you're talking right now, that's your ad hoc feelings about it.

idontknow
idontknow

@massdebater
No, it's simple theory.

One guy is making above his labour value
Meaning another guy is making less

Techpill
Techpill

@idontknow
How exactly do you determine what his labor value is in this case? Socially necessary labor to win an 3 NBA titles and 4 MVPs? In that case he's seriously underpaid.

Methshot
Methshot

@takes2long
There hasn't been a legitimate criticism in this thread thoug
yes there has. Proof of this is your deliberate ignoring of said arguments and instead strawmanning. Just like Marx, you havent even read the thread itself.
You are dumb lol
This proves my point of marxist being completley helpless in defending their meme ideology from criticism. The fact that it is such a completely horrid ideology to begin with already makes such a task near impossible, but most marxist being spoiled middle class idiots makes it actually impossible. This is why "marxist" such as yourself can only respond in one of two ways

1.) "read marx!"

or

2.) "youre just stupid!"

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@GoogleCat
In those societies, you get more from working for a company than your menial labor would materialize in and of itself.
I suppose some people on minimum wage can receive more than they provide, but on average workers produce more value than they receive. Especially if you don't count the salaried managers and administrators among them.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Fried_Sushi
But if his Labor moves billions or trillions of units of capital across the world, should he make millions? At the end of the day, a shit shoveler is only moving shit, even if he breaks his back more than the Wall street Investor or CEO

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Bidwell
Workers were getting richer not poorer and less likely to rebel. His successor Eduard Bernstein addressed those mistakes as well. Further evolution did the rest. Communist ideas weren't just killed by capitalist progress but by time itself.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@idontknow
workers exploiting other workers
You're just making shit up on the fly.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@Snarelure
Hierarchy is natural
Oligarchy is inevitable
Until AI takes over there needs to be enough economic freedom to weed out inefficiencies
no, an AI dictatorship is not communism
statelessness is a meme, people naturally desire leadership and government

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Techpill
based on the general work he puts into his profession. The usually agreed method is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value#LTV_and_the_labor_process

It's still hotly debated. But what you'e using as an example isn't a marxist contradiction, it's simply a complication in achieving Communism from Socialism that can be debated in the method used.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Lord_Tryzalot
personal wealth from other people's work
Buddy there's this thing every work place in a capitalist society has, it's called getting monitary compensation for your labor, also known as getting paid

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@Methshot
yes there has. Proof of this is your deliberate ignoring of said arguments and instead strawmanning. Just like Marx, you havent even read the thread itself.
Quote a contradiction not adequately responded to, like I asked.

This proves my point of marxist being completley helpless in defending their meme ideology from criticism. The fact that it is such a completely horrid ideology to begin with already makes such a task near impossible, but most marxist being spoiled middle class idiots makes it actually impossible. This is why "marxist" such as yourself can only respond in one of two ways

Hahaha, I was taking the piss you autist.

@Burnblaze
And that's the tragedy of a currency-based society user. The shit-shovellor should make more, morally.

@Emberfire
Well, that number is now increasing as of 2017 in relation to your graph.

Marx and Engels didn't expect a socialist revolution to happen in their life. A higher standard of living is necessary for workers to achieve class consciousness and take control.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Nude_Bikergirl
that number is now growing as of 2017
Broofs?

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Methshot
Oh, and I do laugh at you calling me a middle class idiot. My parents had to both work, making only around 50k pooled together and I've had to hold a job since I was 16 to pay for uni. I'm part of the working class.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Nude_Bikergirl
The shit-shovellor should make more, morally.
While that is true, a shit shoveler would make nothing in a socialist society, because he doesn't produce anything.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Nude_Bikergirl
Hahaha, I was taking the piss you autist.
I was only pretending to be retarded
Its nice to see you try and straighten up after you realized you childish petty bullshit wasnt going to work and you were only making an ass out of yourself, but its too late user. You already expressed your true colors as a moron

iluvmen
iluvmen

@PackManBrainlure
Understand the theory of post-scarcity and automation. Lenin didn't need to ensure the State would dissolve, technology ensured it.
too bad this never happened and the soviet union imploded on itself user. Its almost as if marxism is bullshit

idontknow
idontknow

@Burnblaze
For most workers, under a socialist or communist system, the return they get from their production is greater than they do in a capitalist system.

You cannot possibly know that, and it is purely theoretical, and there are examples like the Mondragon Corporation to prove you wrong in any case.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Nude_Bikergirl
Well, that number is now increasing as of 2017 in relation to your graph.

Bad policies, periods of violence, temporary economic problems. What is important is the drop from almost all of humanity living in poverty to complete reversal of the situation and what caused it.

A higher standard of living is necessary for workers to achieve class consciousness and take control.
Instead a higher standard of living solidified the market system while the people "take control" in the only correct way. By actually starting their ventures themselves if they so desire. If they don't then they trade their free time for work under the employer investing his money in his training.

hairygrape
hairygrape

@haveahappyday
My parents had to both work, making only around 50k pooled together and I've had to hold a job since I was 16 to pay for uni.
in other words, youre middle class.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@CouchChiller
wikipedia scholar
I figured out I'm once again debating an intellectual heavyweight. Have a nice day.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Nude_Bikergirl
And that's the tragedy of a currency-based society user. The shit-shovellor should make more, morally.
Marxism claims to be amoral though.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Spamalot
In the west, this generation is the first to do less well than their parents. things are getting better in Industrializing nations like India, Ethiopia etc. But post-industrial societies, things are actively getting worse.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/18/millennials-earn-8000-pounds-less-in-their-20s-than-predecessors

@SomethingNew
it's not a production question, he's still got a boss in a socialist society who pays him. And they in turn provide a service, which acts effectively as production.

@cum2soon
Nope, you really are just bad at social cues.

@iluvmen
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/new_socialism.pdf

Because The soviets didn't operate computer based planned economies, seeing it as bourgeois science.

Techpill
Techpill

@CodeBuns
Because you don't know what you're talking about.
Coming from the commie, how ironic.

Methnerd
Methnerd

Never understood the idea that communism is "inevitable". What the living fuck makes it inevitable? Most people don't even find communism desirable, let alone possible.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Deadlyinx
he's still got a boss in a socialist society who pays him
How is this any different from capitalism?

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@JunkTop
IF YOU OWN SOMETHING, IT MEANS YOURE AN OPPRESSIVE ASSHOLE!
Private property =/= Personal property

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Deadlyinx
Nope, you really are just bad at social cues.
No user, you got called out for being retarded and are desperately trying to change gears to save face.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@hairygrape
I don't know what the fuck country you live in.

@kizzmybutt
Bad policies, periods of violence, temporary economic problems.

That's a meme. The country experinecing this in the study, the UK, grew 3.5% in 2016

What is important is the drop from almost all of humanity living in poverty to complete reversal of the situation and what caused it.

Obviously, Capiatlism is better than Feudalism, but the good times don't keep getting better under a post industrial society.

@Poker_Star
le wikipedia argument

@Gigastrength
In what sense? It's a science, really.

Class conscious workers = Cooperated economies.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@Burnblaze
Only Marxists are enough to make autistic distinction. If you own something, it's your private property, so einfach ist das.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Methnerd
What the living fuck makes it inevitable?
Its a borderline religion at this point and they see its inevitability in the same way evangelist christians see the inevitable return of christ. Marxism is on the same scale as dianetics

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Techpill
Nice argument, lol.

@Sharpcharm
Because he controls the workplace democratically, the manager just acts to coordinate and direct, rather than as an oligarch.

the tragedy isn't the fact the firm has a boss, but the fact the firm functions as it does.

@Emberburn
Lmao, I bet you're great with sarcasm too.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Burnblaze
muh orwellian double speak bullshit excuse

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Deadlyinx
millenials are doing a lot worse
There's a huge amount of factors going into that trend than just "lmao capitalism is fucking them over". These factors can range anywhere from personal choices of people now and in the past on things like how they manage finances and what job they want.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

guys my version of marxism will totally work this time trust me

we actually need to gas all fucking marxists they're so fucking retarded

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Emberfire
Claiming something is immoral is not really a Marxist argument. It's a fact that Lebron James is severely underpaid, he's earning like 30 million a year although his real value could be in the hundreds of millions when you realize what profits he brings to the NBA.

FastChef
FastChef

@Emberfire
That's a meme. The country experinecing this in the study, the UK, grew 3.5% in 2016
Growth isn't the same as development, we have a healthcare system in which people who can't wash themselves are taken off disability benefits and pushed into suicide because unqualifed pricks labelled them fit to work, the distincition between growth and development is an important one, growth should serve development, not just be done for the sake of it.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@CouchChiller
They're different things, monkey.

Private property = Produces goods of society
Personal = The goods themselves, i.e. your house, your car, your phone.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@LuckyDusty
Because he controls the workplace democratically, the manager just acts to coordinate and direct, rather than as an oligarch.
the tragedy isn't the fact the firm has a boss, but the fact the firm functions as it does.
But if the democratically-owned firms are all competing then they have to lower their wages in order to compete in the market, which means that regardless of the fact that they are democratic the workers are still being exploited out of the full value of their labor.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@idontknow
I said most but
using mondragon as an example of capitalism
Lol.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@JunkTop
What about property that is both of those things?

Lunatick
Lunatick

@eGremlin
t. baby boomer

Wages adjusted for inflation are shitter for millenials, as are house prices, transport, insurance, education.

@AwesomeTucker
Profits themselves aren't marxist, so that's an illegitimate claim of his value to the business. that also doesn't factor in his actual labour.

@FastChef
Growth however indicates that the profit itself is being generated in society. Trickle down bullshit is why it isn't being felt at the lower end. It's no shock the upper class are the ones getting richer.

@BunnyJinx
But if the democratically-owned firms are all competing then they have to lower their wages in order to compete in the market

I hate Market Socialists, they're retards, and I won't defend markets.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

ideology that will slaughter more people than any other and always lead to economic stagnation and collapse has its beginning as a creepy comune founded by a rich Anglo who failed spectacularly and was later btfo by his own son with one sentence that should serve as a motto for the entire story of the ideology
Like fine, beautiful poetry.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Stark_Naked
such as?

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Lunatick
Wages are worse because inflation
Yeah because everytime we try to hike minimum wage companies have to either raise prices or fire people to compensate which means your new higher wage has the same buying power as your wages before the hike

farquit
farquit

@Crazy_Nice
Computer, the tools in my shed, 3D printers, trucks, a garden and gun, etc.

5mileys
5mileys

@Lunatick
I hate Market Socialists, they're retards, and I won't defend markets.
So how do you properly allocate resources without a market?

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Evil_kitten
I didn't say that? I said adjusted for inflation. Not because.

@farquit
Then if you hire people and have them work under you, it becomes private property.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@5mileys
Federations and Autonomous communities trading. I'm a syndicalist, so that's just my view, not representative of all socialists.

But, you have brought up the point as to why socialism failed in the 20th century, which I developed on here:
@PackManBrainlure

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@StrangeWizard
No, I'm using Mondragon as an example of functioning worker co-op within a capitalist system.

His claim was that workers would get more out of their work in a socialist or communist system which is blatantly wrong, because under a capitalist system, capital still exists, which is what these workers can use to expand their business. It's literally a modern form of of a medieval guild.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Bidwell
Then if you hire people and have them work under you, it becomes private property.
So as long as I can run the factory myself (which is becoming increasingly possible with automation) then I get to keep it and all the profits for myself?

Methshot
Methshot

@Bidwell
And I just gave you a reason why the wages that are adjusted for inflation are worse.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@kizzmybutt
Federations and Autonomous communities trading
Which leads to these communities competing for those trades, which leads to a market, which leads to market socialism.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Playboyize
Uh, socialists would more or less be okay with that. It just comes down to how one would feel on the market and profit model. But that's pretty much fine to a certain degree and most wouldn't consider it private property.

Evilember
Evilember

@Methshot
But that just like, hasn't happened at all. Goods didn't increase under the New Deal's minimum wages, if anything, they got cheaper. You underestimate the surplus business accumulates.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Methnerd
Nope, since there isn't a need for profit under a cooperative business.

Mutualist theory explains this better than me, but essentially, since collaboration with other communities is done through labour rather than wealth, they essentially function in union to support one another for the general benefit, and by extension themselves.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@StonedTime
since there isn't a need for profit under a cooperative business
Yes there would be. Let's Community A is offering Community B some lumber in a trade for steel, and Community C wants that lumber so they offer to trade even less steel than Community B is offering. Now, this bartering continues until both communities have had to lower their wages to keep business going.

Basically, the only way to prevent such an outcome is to install a centralized government that does all the planning for them and doesn't allow mutually beneficial trades without their oversight.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Deadlyinx
The west isn't just your Anglo coutries.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Snarelure
Lack of incentives for individuals to excel, leading to stagnation

farquit
farquit

@Poker_Star
It's not wrong because under a communist system capital still exists an businesses can still expand.
In a capitalist systems profits are distributed to the owners, the workers (administrators and producers), and used for investment. In this scheme usually owners are not workers and producers are paid less than administrators. And these days often investment is restricted. Most workers are thus getting ripped off.

takes2long
takes2long

@farquit
under a communist system capital still exists an businesses can still expand
Only under market socialism.

w8t4u
w8t4u

Because every communist revolution has happened in an underdeveloped economy, preventing communist governments from abolishing wage labor outright and forcing them to trade with foreign capitalist countries to build capital.

askme
askme

@Lunatick
Profits themselves aren't marxist
Sure. But surplus value still applies.

likme
likme

@whereismyname
The lumber would be given without the need for repayment. i didn't mean trade in the sense of an immediate response needed, but rather communities working as a federation to provide resources nationally, as needed.

It's a centralized economy, run at a local level.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@w8t4u
this is important

Playboyize
Playboyize

@likme
The lumber would be given without the need for repayment
Why would it be given at all then? When has an economy run on charity ever worked?

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Playboyize
So if i'm in a firm, and we need the guys from the next floor to give us paper, are we a business run on charity? No, we're just a business internally sharing resources. the same applies in this economy. It all comes out in the growth, which is felt locally by all.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Snarelure
Cybersyn didn't have enough time to be properly tested.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@farquit
Owners usually had injected their own capital into the system which they wouldn't have done if they didn't expect rewards for doing so.

Producing a particular material good isn't inherently more valuable than providing a services (like admnistration); if people were willing to do admnistrataive work in a factory for the same wage assembly-line workers are willing to do their work, that is what the factory owner would pay his admnistrators because he wants profits.

DeathDog
DeathDog

Too far ahead of it's time. Mark my words, in a century or 2 when we automate everything, we download our consciousness to a greater internet and shed our solid biological forms, communism will finally be achieved, free of a state.
Dyson Sphere Trans-Humanist Master Race

JunkTop
JunkTop

@DeathDog
You think AIs won't have to work to gather copper, iron, rare earth minerals, sunny surface area, CPU room, etc?

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Sharpcharm
The difference being that lumber is a valuable resource that the community needs to know will be used for their benefit, and that not giving paper results in you being fired.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Emberburn
Cybersyn isn't communist though.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@farquit
In a capitalist systems profits are distributed to the owners

And in the Mondragon Corporation the workers are the property owners. So what's the problem?

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@Stupidasole
Close enough

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Lord_Tryzalot
A centralized government controlling the industry of the state throughout the nation is not even close to what Marx had in mind with Communism.

5mileys
5mileys

@idontknow
Where? Wasn´t he talking about Spartacus and slave riots?

cum2soon
cum2soon

@DeathDog
Agreed, unless we all die communism is effectively inevitable. But it will be a lot more supercomputers and solar energy, and a lot less green fatigues and factory strikes

Bidwell
Bidwell

@DeathDog
we download our consciousness to a greater internet and shed our solid biological forms
So basically the only way communism will work is if we literally take away all material needs? Which means of course that the humans living outside the digital world will not be communist.

Inmate
Inmate

@haveahappyday
Neither was literally any other implementation of Marxism, who gives a shit.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Bidwell
2018
living outside the digital world

TreeEater
TreeEater

@Inmate
So why even call it fucking communism then?

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@Poker_Star
Only reason I'd want to go to the digital world is to digitally fap to my fetishes

Snarelure
Snarelure

@haveahappyday
A centralized government controlling the industry of the state throughout the nation is not even close to what Marx had in mind with Communism.

Marx himself had no idea how to implement Communism, which is why Marxist-Leninism was created in the first place.

Marx was trapped between his Hegelian notions and his realist-radical aspirations, and the world killed 100 million people because of it.

WebTool
WebTool

The Soviet Union
Cuba
Venezuela
Cambodia
China
North Korea

list goes on and on

DeathDog
DeathDog

@Snarelure
Easy:

1: The "Soviet" states were not at a stage of production that could facilitate the change to Socialism or Communism.
2: 98% of "Socialist Revolutions" were national liberation struggles under red flags and nothing else.
3: Communists were often too trusting and ending up getting purged by more Machiavellian forces. (Stalin and the Bolsheviks, Sankara and his allies wooed by the French, The Spanish Popular Front and the Stalinists)

The idea that shitty ultra-nationalist leninist states in the 20th century that didn't even attempt any drive towards Socialism disprove Socialism, when Marx fucking says that Socialism is only possible with the organic consumption of capital (Mass AI driven automation) reaching a certain point it hasn't even economically hit yet (but likely will hit in the next 50-100 years) is dumb as fuck.
It's like saying Climate Change isn't real because the ice caps haven't all melted yet. The material conditions Marx laid out for Socialism simply have not occured yet, but statistically we are getting there.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Bidwell
I'd rather be one of the AIs making sure the hardware stays operational, out in the real world. Because I want to be useful.

And sending probes into outer space and stuff.

FastChef
FastChef

@Snarelure
Labor value theory is a terrible worth assessment theory. Since the rest of communism was built on LVT, the economic model as a whole fails

JunkTop
JunkTop

@DeathDog
It's like saying Climate Change isn't real because the ice caps haven't all melted yet
But climate change isn't real because it has not been even close to scientifically proven yet.

The material conditions Marx laid out for Socialism simply have not occured yet, but statistically we are getting there.
Socialism, marxism and communism all failed. They do not work and they never will. How long will it take your peanut retarded child brain to understand that?

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@DeathDog
Marx didn't predict the service-based economy.

Nor did he predict AI.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@WebTool
The Soviet Union
State Capitalist and wasn't attempting to reach Communism, especially after the Bolshies were purged and Russian conservatism reigned under a red flag.

Cuba
National liberation struggle.

Venezuela
Literally not Communist or Socialist but Social Democratic

Cambodia
National Liberation struggle.

China
Actually did try reach Socialism for a bit and things were actually going very well until 1956 and Mao became a Machiavellian nationalist shithead.

North Korea
National Liberation struggle.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@CodeBuns
Yes he did.
That literally is what OCC is.
Do you think a urbanised service economy didn't exist in the 19th century?

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@StrangeWizard
How can one person be so fucking stupid?

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@JunkTop
Socialism, marxism and communism all failed.
No they haven't.

They do not work and they never will.
Based on your feels and nothing else

How long will it take your peanut retarded child brain to understand that?
How long will it take you fucking retards to understand that economic systems are driven by material relations and technology and once mass automation and advanced artificial intellegence hits, the material and social relations of Capitalism literally fall to bits without mass genocide of most of the earths population and then what comes afterwards wouldn't be Capitalism anyway.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@Dreamworx
Try go back to feudalism faggot. See how many people want to come join your feudalistic nightmare.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Raving_Cute
No they haven't.
Yes they literally have. None of them have been successful ever throughout human history. Still it's 2018 and retards like you still advocate them after over a hundred million dead.

@Raving_Cute
Based on your feels and nothing else
Facts > feels you stupid nigger.

@Raving_Cute
once mass automation and advanced artificial intellegence hits
You're stupid retarded made up scenario will never "hit" you fucking mongrel.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Raving_Cute
once mass automation and advanced artificial intelligence hits
What you fail to understand is that a society ran by AI and where all production comes from automation is not communist. It's not capitalist either, in fact it does not fall under any mainstream ideology we know of today.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Garbage Can Lid
Please expand. What was the sentence?

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@MPmaster
Yes they literally have.

No they haven't. You're legitimately fucking retarded if you think Post-Lenin ML states gave a single fucking shit about Socialism.

None of them have been successful ever throughout human history.

What is that? Shitty State Capitalism sucks? It's almost exactly like what fucking Engels said!

Still it's 2018 and retards like you still advocate them after over a hundred million dead.

Over a hundred million dead by shitty State Capitalism which is still a fraction of deaths caused by Free Market Capitalism in a single decade.

Facts > feels you stupid nigger.
Too bad you /pol/faggots don't even know what Capitlaism, Marxism or Socialism is.

You're stupid retarded made up scenario will never "hit" you fucking mongrel.
Yeah, Automation and Mass AI development that every scientist, economist and expert thinks will hit in the next 50 years and economic data shows we will soon be hitting, is never gonna happen.

What you fail to understand is that a society ran by AI and where all production comes from automation is not communist.

Yes it is if the automation is communalised.

It's not capitalist either, in fact it does not fall under any mainstream ideology we know of today.

It's literally Socialism if it's communalised, it's Marx's big fucking prediction with the OCC which is the main component of allowing the development of Socialism.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@WebTool
State-capitalist and not democratic
not democratic
social democracy
not democratic
somewhat but not democratic
literally claim NOT to be communist, also not democratic

most of these don't even meet the basic criteria of communism

Methshot
Methshot

@lostmypassword
Yes it is if the automation is communalised.
If the automation is communalized then it isn't being ran by an AI.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Sharpcharm
If some area is resource rich while the other is pisspoor the first one always has a leverage and can start demanding all kinds of shit before delivering goods.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@StrangeWizard
@Poker_Star
So where the hell is the pure commie society?

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Supergrass
Non-existent. Communism is unlikely to ever exist, especially with new technology making it more outdated everyday.

Spamalot
Spamalot

Yet another thread were people who haven't read Marx attack a strawman of his ideas.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Spamalot
another faggot says that "you just need to read more Marx" instead of simply defending his ideas using the knowledge he gained from supposedly reading Marx

Evilember
Evilember

@Spamalot
I didn't strawman him at all. In fact I take him quite seriously, because his ideas have murdered quite a lot of people, and I'd rather that not happen again.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Poker_Star
State capitalism might be the most retarded expression Marxists ever invented
Capitalism: a system based on private individuals owning property and the means of production preferably with limited government intervention
State capitalism: literally the opposite of that

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Snarelure
Capitalism won because it simply was more efficient. It dispersed the means of production and data processing to the public, whilst communism centralised it.

There is simply too much information to be processed by a single authority in todays modern economy. It simply couldnt keep up.

Methshot
Methshot

@farquit
In this scheme usually owners are not workers
Yeah, they haven't spent years building their skills to start a company.
They haven't spend years building it up from literally nothing.
They don't risk losing all their saving if they business fails
They haven't invested shit tons of money into it.
They aren't continually making desicions and injecting money into the company to make it better and not get out competed.

Most owners just shove their thumb up their ass, conjure up a business and it runs smoothly from there on out.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Snarelure
It suppresses incentive to work well, and monopolize economic power in the hand of the state making them doom as soon as someone unworthy is head of the state (which always happen)

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@JunkTop
WHAT IF LIKE, DUDE HOLD UP, WHAT IF, WE CREATED A STATELESS SOCIETY BY CREATING THE MOST CENTRALIZED FORM OF GOVERNMENT EVER?
oh do marx created leninism now

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Snarelure

Dude, what if nobody was allowed to buy or sell anything LMAO

Why would it ever work? It's an inherently dumb idea.

likme
likme

Communism comes from the Latin Comunis meaning shared or Common. So there are different degrees of Communism corresponding to the degree of resources held in common or shared.

Asking why Communism has never worked is like asking why Total Anarco-Capitalism has never worked.

Methshot
Methshot

@likme

I consider myself a Marxist though I don't advocate Total Communism. I think we need to find the correct balance between private and shared resources because obviously certain goods should not be privatized (such as healthcare and education). This is confirmed by the high cost of healthcare in countries like the United states where healthcare is totally privatized vs. nations that have instituted some form of socialized medicine.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Methshot
The insane costs of healthcare are largely administrative and regulatory related stemming from government policy

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Methnerd
As production becomes more and more efficient, we need less workers to do the same amount of work. This is even more true as automation ramps up. Eventually you are going to have a situation where work (and the near limitless wealth of society) is available to very few. Once we reach this point, there are a few ways it could go:

Rich people don't share, poor people with no ability to sustain themselves simply die off, the remaining people live in a post-scarcity society, communism achieved
Rich people don't share, poor people rise up, slaughter the rich, and distribute society's near limitless wealth, communism achieved
Rich people share, the increasingly post-scarcity society can provide for every human need, communism achieved

Provided there is no cap to our technological progress in the near future, communism is an inevitability, even if the global 1% are the only ones who live to see it.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@SniperWish

Yeah, Capitalist government policy such as patents. :)

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Crazy_Nice
Please explain why anyone would make medicine without patents, excluive rights to a monopoly for X number of years is a far more effective policy in getting companies to make shit than "Lol i guess Steve-Corp can use your design you spent billions on"

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@SniperWish
Nah, universal single-payer healthcare carries less admnistrative and bureaucratic load than your private-insurance-based system. US healthcare has two clerks working for every doctor, there are hundreds of different healthplans, covering different conditions, in different hospitals, different meds, up to different costs, etc.

And the costs of pharmaceuticals are made reasonable when pharma corps have to negotiate prices with the government, like they do in most developed countries.

Having a universal tax-funded public option doesn't prohibit private options btw. It just makes it so people aren't ruined by health expenses that insurances won't cover, for whatever reason.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@SniperWish
Your healthcare is insanely costly because you have no price caps on that shit.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Stark_Naked
Rich people share, the increasingly post-scarcity society can provide for every human need, communism achieved

This is why UBI is such a fraud unless it is applied globally. International specialization of the workforce ends up fucking up the possibilities of third world countries to give people enough to really reduce their enormous inequality. Unless the rich countries share the wealth with the people of the poor countries to make a real effort to reduce inequality, we will just making the life of the poor a little bit miserable but nevertheless and forever miserable.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@StrangeWizard
mfw anarkiddies claim the DOTP is unjustified heirarchy and left nationalism is an oxymoron while crying about the rights of the landlords and fascists while their 3 month commune burns from imperialist aggression

Trots and edgy libs (aka anarchists and antifa regulars) are responsible for the "communism never happened" meme because apparently if its not perfect the first run, its not socialist or a communist movement. Fugging utopians and bourgious lifestylist have no good material theory and are the furthest thing from Marx or actual socialism.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@New_Cliche
Are you basing that assumption on anything?

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@Snarelure

The labor theory of value is bullshit. Subjective theory of value is the only thing that makes sense in the real world.

hairygrape
hairygrape

@Boy_vs_Girl
This.
Comic book nerd: this Batman issue is worth a thousand dollars because it's a rare collection item
Normal person: this Batman issue is toilet paper to me because comic books are for nerds and faggots
Marxist: this Batman issue is worth precisely X because it takes average comic artist Y hours to draw one page
What the literal fuck

Skullbone
Skullbone

@New_Cliche
Not necessarily.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Snarelure
Do you plan to someday in the future have more money? Are you concerned that your taxes are too high, because someday you might pay too much tax. Do you ride the bus only because this year you can’t afford that luxury car you’re going to have? Do you live pay cheque to pay cheque like most people just because you haven’t had your lucky break.

You aren’t rich and it’s very unlikely you ever will be. The economic and power systems of this planet are not designed for you to get rich. The American dream doesn’t exist and it never did. Stop being a temporarily embarrassed millionaire and just be a person.

girlDog
girlDog

@Illusionz
Go back to krautchan

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Stark_Naked
@Garbage Can Lid

Healthcare costs as much as it does because the US has best healthcare system in the world. Yes there are bureaucratic nightmares but that's what happens when you try to make it affordable to the general public. Fact: You're more likely to die under the care of the Canadian healthcare system as opposed to the American one.

Nojokur
Nojokur

All the nations succeed in the violent revolution but never work past the dictator bit

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@Stark_Naked
You do realize that just because a society is post-scarcity does not mean that society is communist, right?

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Snarelure
As an empiricist, the why doesn't matter. All that matters is that it doesn't work.

That said, the most plausible explanation I've seen is in Dostoevsky, who saw the whole thing coming.

cum2soon
cum2soon

Because humans are hairless east african monkeys and not tabula rasas

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Lunatick
Wages adjusted for inflation are shitter for millenials, as are house prices, transport, insurance, education.
Again, like that other user said, that applies to a vast array of things; mostly caused by government interference, but others are cultural reasons.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Snarelure
These are the worst kinds of threads.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Stupidasole
first one always has a leverage and can start demanding all kinds of shit before delivering goods.

Shit thats what I would do, also to ask the guy you were responding to, what are you gonna do about guys like me who always want a little more? You know like nicer food, a bigger house, some more money, you can't just make us disappear at the wave of a wand you know.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Snarelure
Because it has never been executed in a place where the material conditions to make it work have been. Even all existing 'communist' states have been state capitalist, as you need a highly developed capital base to make communism viable. All historical communist states have been Leninist or Maoist, which advocate development of capital in the communist state, which isn't 'real' communism and which also can be much less efficient than normal capitalist accumulation. Communism will be possible in the near future (i.g. when robots can do all the basic labour necessary to maintain us) but all previous attempts have been in largely agrarian societies which didn't have a chance.

Inmate
Inmate

@Stark_Naked
Even once automation controls everything it still wouldn't be viable, communism is stateless, and without a state to provide protection, distribute resources, and create laws, society won't function.

WebTool
WebTool

@Inmate
Maybe, but that's at least two steps ahead, and communism as a practice should only think one step ahead; the only society Marx explicitly advocated for, in the Critique of the Gotha Programme, wasn't even stateless. In any case, once we reach the point human labour isn't valuable any more (at least the labour of billions) we'll have to move to something else, which should be something towards said utopia.

TechHater
TechHater

@WebTool
Well I mean, an AI lead dictatorship with automated industry and humans all plugged away in VR certainly is a utopia, but it don't come close to what Marx or pretty much any mainstream ideologue has come up with.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@Snarelure
This dumb ass nigga didn't even understand the simple, basic and outdated economics of HIS time, he was thinking in the past of the past, he didn't even understand how basic value worked! Why do you think he'd be able to make a system that would work in the future with capitalism and industrialization in it's biggest growth and boom of the world? Maybe if he was born 100 years earlier and people adopted it earlier it could work, but otherwise communists were basically stealing all the progress entrepreneurs of the past to run or otherwise forcing people into a rushed slave system to get something working like a factory or massive farm, because nobody wanted to do it for themselves with no incentive, and you'd get a system where everyone is just a simple farmer or rancher waiting for someone else out of the goodness of their heart and insane brain to start building shit that wouldn't really benefit them at all. the space race didn't involve the average worker at all, but the USSR government naturally turned into a massive overbearing shithole that had to show off against the capitalist US who was doing it for actual scientific exploration and possible exploitation.

Karl marx for some retarded reason also attacked Hegelianism and Hegel because apparently people are all robots who only run on instinct and are constantly waiting to react to something new to make new ideas, concepts, and thoughts, and people have never came up with a thought then tried applying it to reality.
Marx thought that somehow just by reacting to their environment workers would start following and creating this magic utopia where everyone does a job out of the goodness of their heart instead of trying to get the best of what they can in life, like someone is going to be a sewage worker without the government or a good incentive to force them to, and these same people will never trade with each other and create a currency or free market in this stateless society.
@hairygrape
This

Spamalot
Spamalot

@PackManBrainlure
Post-scarcity and automation
too bad we don't live in a sci-fi world where we do have this magic bullshit, and we live in a material world of finite size and quantity.
No we won't ever have super computers running everything for us at least not until the year 3000, and we can't all live in upper middle class conditions considering how many humans are currently alive and how many are currently having more than two kids, either the weakest and laziest suffer or we all suffer equally.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Stark_Naked
@Inmate
@WebTool
So whats the point of working if people who used to do these labor jobs now just sit on their asses and have robots do the work for them?
Humans will always have to do the work that requires real thought, management, and innovation. robots can do stocking, manual labor, and logistics, but they can't make a better train or food, but why should I do this job if the other 301,310,011 people are now free because robots do their jobs and they can't do my job, or find space for a new job as they've already been taken up and they aren't needed.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@TechHater
Marxism's strength doesn't rely in positive philosophy (imagining a future society) but rather a negative one (critiquing the current state of society). It doesn't offer an answer, but rather a method to constantly critique and change, to reach the next level. Unfortunately, many people see it as a prescriptive ideal which should be followed to the end, both communists and people who hate the idea.

Evilember
Evilember

@Gigastrength
You sound like all the Marxists I know when they started to realize communism and especially Marxism is bullshit and give the Das Kapital deconstructionist arguments instead. Marx was trying to build something however, that was the entire purpose of the Communist Manifesto. He specifically says what needs to be done and at the end gives a call to action with "workers of the world unite".

You'll be a traditionalist, either a monarchist or a fascist, in a year if not already.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@Evilember
The Manifesto was written for an organization, and almost all organizations are positive because "you can change the world!" is a much more effective rallying cry than "this will happen in the next 250 years". Indeed, workers' movements of the past two centuries have transformed the labour environment of today, to their benefit. But Marx had little foresight in positive goals he preached, as he was limited by where his society had advanced materially.

But I'm definitely not a traditionalist; such ideas only offer a step back and restrict historical movement. Instead I'd call myself apolitical for the time being.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Snarelure
The same reason space colonies never worked - because it has never been achieved.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@kizzmybutt
So whats the point of working
There would be no point to working at all, no one would have any jobs for the purposes of making a living.

but they can't make a better train or food
They sure as fuck can.

@Gigastrength
I'm not going to pretend I've read Marx but what you just said sounds like a crock of bullshit because I've never heard anyone, especially the communists, say that Marx didn't have a future society planned out. If anything people say that he had a future society without a proper plan to get there.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

pic related

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