Who are the ancestors of the modern Serbs?
I'm Serbian diaspora and had an argument with one of my friends about this, he maintains that we're descended mostly from Slavic tribes (the Sclaveni) who moved south into the Balkans, I believe we're descended from pre-Slavic Balkan tribes who were slavicised. I think Dacians and Thracians are probably the primary ancestors of Serbs, along with maybe Illyrian tribes. My friend is getting into Rodnovery and I think it's retarded.
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It depends if you're talking genetic or cultural/ethnic descent. Genetically we mostly come from the old natives, like most people anywhere. Ethnically we're as Slavic as it gets.
Rodnovery is retarded either way tho.
Native Balkanic mixed with Greco-Anatolian or whatever the fuck the Turks brought there.
Poles are probably the purest Slavs and Serbs look nothing like them.
>Who are the ancestors of the modern Serbs?
The Turks.
Turks brought nothing here, nor did Turks (especially not real, original Turks, a Central Asian group) settle in relevant numbers.
Serbs look the same we looked 1000 years ago.
Same for everyone else in Balkans. Greeks might look a bit ''whiter'' because of Slavic migrations, but that's it.
We probably migrated from what is now Eastern Germany (where you still have Sorbs, who are probably descendants of tribe which remained).
We are mostly native with some Slavic admixture.
>Rodnovery is retarded either way
I agree. I'm not personally religious either way
I did mean genetic though, as pagans tend to claim that their faith is ethnic in a genetic sense. We aren't like Russians, we were probably just slavicised.
This but I maintain that the Turks didn't leave any genetic leftovers on the Serbian people. The genetic flow went the other way, when Serbs married Turks they married INTO Turkish culture and while modern Turks might have some Serb ancestry the amount of Turkish blood that went the other way is probably negligible
god himself, who is a serb, obviously
I don't know, but they must've really liked going bowling with their cousins.
Also I'm fucking tired of this retarded autistic meme where people base their opinions on outliers and cherry-picked pictures.
Some Balkan people are very swarthy, some look like Scandinavians, but overwhelming majority are something in between, and look totally European.
Also people fucking tan, you know. I'm pale as fuck and blue-eyed but I get mild tan in summer (if I don't burn). A bit swarthier people tan better. Girls go to tanning saloons and shit.
>The genetic flow went the other way
Exactly, especially in 19th century when millions of Muslims (who were converted natives) escaped to Anatolia, which at those times had a population of several million people.
It's Turks whose genetics changed, because they were a small group which increased its numbers by assimilation, not the genetics of conquered people.
That's just autistic fantasy of retards who don't know shit about history.
serb = serv(us) = slav(e)
That's incorrect etymology and you know it
>ranty rant
On average, I can definitely spot out the odd serb out of a group of slovenians, imagine the difference to europeans even further north...
No you can't, and I lived quite some time in Ljubljana, and traveled a lot thought Europe.
You're imagining things.
Most of Serbs and Balkanites in general look like average Europeans. We're less swarthy than Italians or Spaniards in my experience.
I know for a fact that I could pass in northern Europe because I live in Canada and people just assume I'm a normal Anglo-Canadian unless I tell them otherwise. My sister is more swarthy and has been mistaken for Greek or southern Italian but I have blue eyes, pale skin and medium brown hair with streaks of blond
ITT: Retarded rapebabies talkin' about us
Reminder that we conquered your shithole with 800 men.
You're our rapebabies.
It's funny because you're the one descended from rapebabies
And you're not even a Turk. Your ancestors were probably Anatolian natives, Arabs, Iranic people, various types of Balkan people and god knows what else. Turks are a mixed bag of raped people and various mixed races
Don't feed the Turk.
I had more of the tall, black haired, pale and with dark circles around the eyes type in mind, rather than swarthiness as one would imagine in an albanian.
>W-We don't have any Turk genes i swear. It's da Turks who have our genes
>B-Because millions of Balkanites converted to Islam and moved to Anatolia (no, rapebaby, Central Anatolian Turks were forced to migrate into your shithole, it's already documented. don't make me crush your rapebaby skull)
>t-turks were a small group anyway they magically assimilated everyone to increase their numbers (just as how we increased your numbers by impregnatign your wives rite geg)
My ancestors were Turkmens and Hellenized Anatolians. Your ancestors are our soldiers and balkan native women who had been raped by Slavic men before.
Know your place, subhuman rapebaby. I'm Turk, i'm superior to you. You're nothing but a retarded cannon fodder rapebaby. And do not get into genetic discussion with me. Average IQ in your country is 80. I can easily wreck you. Understood rapebaby?
Albanians look just like everyone in Balkans. As I said, you're imagining things.
People in Kosovo are swarthy, but that's because they have a lot of gypsy blood.
Idk but for some reason pretty much every culture that has old roots uses coins as adornment, that's like a common theme between plenty of old cultures.
Serbs are a mix of Natives Illyrians(I2) and Afroasiatic Thracian warriors(E1b1b) with a little admixture of Indo-European oppressors(R1a).
Note that, the non-white blood of the Balkanites(E1b1b) is what make them tribal and based;
Original Serbs aka Sorbs were R1a-M458, same with White Croats.
>HURR DURR HAPLOS
cringe
This desu. Thracians weren't "Afroasiatic", they were Indo-European. The E1b1b is from Neolithic farmers
>Natives Illyrians(I2)
I2 came with the Slavs.
>Afroasiatic Thracian
lmao
>Balkanites
That's not even a real word. It's "Balkanians".
A lot of these pictures were Russian propaganda to convince Balkanites to fight the Turks, because it benefited the Russians.
>Afroasiatic Thracian
Peak shitposting. No, really, get the fuck out of this thread.
ok rapebaby
Ok bait response.
Dude, most of the military and political elite of the Ottoman Empire came from Balkan peoples. Even the Sultans were often mixed with Balkan mothers.
This. Albanians and Greeks have very little I2.
>ask about serbs' ancestors
>answer using Patrilineal DNA
>get butthurt
You should be thankful. If you were 40-70% R1x like Northern-Europeans you would be welcoming refugees and beg them to impregnate your women.
All men carrying E1b1b are the sons of Shem(God-King of Natufia). Thracians were IEcized Shemites.
I2 is native in Europe you mongrel.
Albanians are not even European.
True, they are Balkan. Europeans don't really have J2 like Serbs/Albanians/Sicilians.
>Dude, most of the military and political elite of the Ottoman Empire came from Balkan peoples
There were 296 Ottoman Grand Viziers
133 of them were Turkish
20 of them were Northern Caucasians
44 of them were Albanians
only 3 were Armenian, 9 were Greek, 1 was Bulgarian 5 were Serb 4 were Bosniak and 2 were Croatian
there was no "Balkan Elite", rapebaby.
Keep dreaming Azem.
I2a-Din are pre-Indo-Europeans who migrated to Ukraine and then back-migrated to the Balkans with the Slavs. Most of Europe was I before Indo-Europeans arrived. It's a mistake to assume that the hordes of Slavs carried only a single haplogroup when Eastern Europe at the time was a big mixing pot of Slavs, Iranics, Turkics, Germanics and whatnot.
Why else would the same subtype of I2 that is present in the Balkans also be present in Ukraine? Illyrians certainly didn't migrate up there. The Slavic hypothesis is much more convincing than L621 being Illyrian. I don't think you'll find any Illyrian skeletons with it. Illyrian were probably mostly E-V13 and J2 and maybe some other type of I, but not the one currently present in high numbers ex-Yugoslavia.
>Albanians are not even European.
The retardation continues.
t. blue-eyed """Turk"""
I have no blue eyes, rapebaby. Besides blue eyes also exist outside Europe.
...
There's genetic continuity with the pre Slavic elements everywhere in the Balkans, just get a genetic test to find out. Either way ethnogenesis doesn't work that like that anyway, you're no more or no less serb if you have a paternal haplogroup dating back to the pre slav invasion.
Serbs have 30% Middle Eastern Y-DNA The I2 in Serbia comes from Ukraine
balkan slavs are mutts, they are the only slavs that were pathetic enough to fall to turks
They're not really mutts, they've been unchanged for thousands of years. They're paleo-Europeans.
There is slavic settlements around Balkans dated to 2nd century AD. You're obviosly an Albo or a Turk, but thats basically the same.
Some Serbs migrating to Ukraine is far more plausible than I2a being Slavic.
>slavic settlements around Balkans dated to 2nd century AD
Which and where? And how would that be relevant to the discussion?
>You're obviosly an Albo or a Turk
Leave these infantile non-arguments elsewhere.
No record of such an event. Plus, the L621 is too young to be Illyrian.
What proof do you have for a back migration? Wishful thinking desu, there is a large genetic continuity in the Balkans from the pre Slavic population and you're just going to have to come to terms with it.
No record of this I2a migration from Ukraine either.
>le Illyrians were the only people in the Balkans maymay
Impossible since it's found in parts of Russia where Middle Eastern and African Y-DNA is unknown so no Serbs ever settled there.
It's wishful thinking and stereotyping on your side. I'm only interested in what's true.
There is plenty of record on the Slavic migrations into the Balkans. There is no record of a mass migration of Serbs into Ukraine.
What is your point?
migrating slavs settled in illyria, so illyrian and slav
i dont know the actual genetics of the serbs but i imagine theyre more illyrian than slav, as most migrators just spread their language, not so much their genes.
You are a turkic-gypsie cross-breed.
On genetic maps they are about 50-50
>There is plenty of record on the Slavic migrations into the Balkans.
And literally no record of this migration ever being I2a. The Sorbs which are supposed to be the progenitors of the Serbs living in modern Germany are overwhelmingly R1a1a.
>There is plenty of record on the Slavic migrations into the Balkans.
There is only one, written by Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos.
Entire slavic migration is based on this one document. That is very suscpicious.
I pray to the Illyrian pantheon everyday, one day me and my friends are going to start pirating Italian shipping in the Adriatic Sea I swear...
Slavs (Nordics) and inferior swarthy races (dinaroid, alpinoid, m*Doid)
Founder effect is the most fundamental principle in population genetics.
We are not surprised that Sorbs and Serbs differ in Y-DNA frequencies(but not necessarily subclades) but we expect it. Some men in the 1st millenium have millions of direct descendants alive today while others didn't even have 1 son.
Did the slavs in the seventh century migrate with their women? What does the mtdna for Serbs look like?
>seventh century
What's up with that meme?
I think Serbs are darker than most balkan people, and a lot of them have strikingly asian facial features. Also, the regions where Serbs settled were not inhabited by Illyrians. Illyrian DNA is among Croats, Montegrenians, and Albanians, so more the coastal regions. More inlands the land was much less densely populated, so I dont think Serbs got a lot of illyrian DNA.
Serbs and Croats arriving to the balkans in the seventh century and Christianizing is literally their finding mythos as a people.
We known that I2 L621 has a significant presence in Ukraine and tracking the mutations and migrations of haplogroup I and its subtypes seems to correlate with the Slavic migrations. Also, L621 is present in the parts of the Balkan populated by Croats and Serbs yet it is less present in other Illyrian territories, including the most dense one which is northern Albania. There is also no trace of it in South Italy even though Illyrians had a significant presence there on the Northern coast.
>Sorbs which are supposed to be the progenitors of the Serbs
That theory was abandoned quite a while ago.
Are you seriously denying the Slavic migrations?
Zarubintsy was most likely R1a + l2. It would explain why Slavic countries have some l2 in them.
There is literally not a single story about the Slavs migrating from Ukraine straight into Serbia.
lol
don't post here until you graduate form gymnasia Jovan
>l2
Which were most likely Mesolithic survivors.
?
Yep, these survivors were Indo-Europeanized by the Corded Ware in Ukraine/Belarus/Poland.
Are you seriosly thinking that bunch of forest people invaded and defeated eastern roman empire and just settled there? And the Emperor just said, ok guys, I will give you land, no worries, I'm not mad at all.
Where are the battles?
>It would explain why Slavic countries have some l2 in them.
What about I2 being native to Europe ?
Middle Easterners from Anatolia biologically replaced the local natives in the Balkans.
> Reminder that we conquered your shithole with 800 men.
lmao, it took you dozens of armies and 120 years to take them out, zergies.
You even managed to fail to conquer Croatia ffs.
...
>what is the neolithic
Sure, there were survivors. The Middle Easterners never settled beyond eastern Poland. That's where Slavic I2 survived.
> Are you seriosly thinking that bunch of forest people invaded and defeated eastern roman empire and just settled there?
> And the Emperor just said, ok guys, I will give you land, no worries, I'm not mad at all.
That is literally what the Romans themselves write.
That's the other balkan peoples. Serbs are weak warriors and lost the quickest.
>the year is 2018
>there are still people holding on to the autochthonous Balkan Slavs theory
I really hope this is just some "you can't reach Sardinia by boat"-like bait.
...
I'm Slavic and by that I mean proper Slavic, not some Balkanoid shitskin.
Great input.
t. Silesian
The pictures suit you.
It's native yes. R1 came with Indo-Europeans yes. But the most likely scenario is ice melting and haplogroup I repopulating Europe. Part of them reach Ukraine. Indo-Euros arrive and both R1a and I2 had a role in the ethnogenesis of proto-Slavs.
are you that czech who always talks about how swarthy macedonia was when you went on holiday there once? macedonia is 50% albanian bro
The Balkans might as well be 100% Albanian based on the specimens I've seen there.
Your post has no content. If you have something to say or ask, do that.
desu there is a slavic strain here whether you like it or not, i'm from montengro and i'd fit right in in rural czechia, the slavic phenotype is not predominant but it certainly exists
If the Balkans are "Slavic" how come they look so different from actual Slavs? This entire thread is fucking surreal, it's like an Anglo-Saxon travelling to Kenya and being told the niggers who live there are the same people as him because they speak a similar language.
Ever seen a mixed breed in Czechia with a Gypsy/Turkish/Italian/Arab parent?
Same thing. They don't look Czech but they are half just like Balkan Slavs are half.
>from actual Slavs
We are the actual Slavs. You are just Germanic rape-babies.
>Barford cited Procopius as writing that the Slavs "are tall and especially strong, their skin is not very white, and their hair is neither blond nor black, but all have reddish hair."
Yes, thats the irony. I dont buy it. Put yourself in that situation, and think about it, what would you do.
And here an excerpt from John of Ephesus:
“(…) In third year after the death of Emperor Justin, during the reign of victorious Tiberius, the damned nation of the Slavs has risen, and marching through entire Hellas, through lands of Thessaly and Thrace, captured many cities and strongholds, plundered, burned and robbed, seized the land and settled there with full ease, without fear, like in their own land. (…) they were plundering the country, burning it and robbing, as far as the Great Walls [of Constantinople], and this is how they captured many thousands of cattle, as well as many other kinds of booty. (…) Until today, that is until year 584, they still continue to live in peace in lands of the Rhomaioi, without fear and concern, plundering, enslaving and burning, getting rich and highjacking gold and silver, capturing horses and plenty of weapons; and they have learned to fight better than the Rhomaioi. (…)”
>Ever seen a mixed breed in Czechia with a Gypsy/Turkish/Italian/Arab parent?
No I haven't, because people here don't mongrelize their ethnicity down to decimal points of percentage like Balkanoids do.
>We are the actual Slavs.
Bait.
>We are the actual Slavs
You're a mix.
>You are just Germanic rape-babies.
Wrong.
What specific form of autism do you suffer from jovan where you deny clear genetic and historic consensus and even the finding mythos of your own people, Jovan? Or is this just typical Serbian behavior?
It's true, I'm sorry. Historical records show that Slavs were not paleskins.
Ah yes, indeed. KARA BOGA.
>Slavs are a tribe of ruddy complexion and fair hair. - Al-Baladhuri
>Slavs are a numerous nation, fair-haired and of ruddy [pink] complexion. - Ibn Al-Kalbi
> Among Slavs, abominable and ugly are their smoothness of hair and delicateness, as well as blond or ruddy colour of their hair and beards, and also whiteness of their eyelashes - Al-Gahiz
>Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or very blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are slightly ruddy in color. - Procopius
Old sources describe Slavs as "ruddy". Do you know what ruddy means? It doesn't mean looking like a Turk.