Are we allowed to have calm and mature discussions on Veeky Forums about holocaust historical accuracy...

Then where did all those millions of Jews who used to live in Poland, Romania, Hungary, Belerus, Ukraine, the Baltics, etc. disappear to?

what 'evidence' is that exactly

>I have seen no instance where Irving has misinterpreted the evidence or misstated the facts in a manner which is detrimental to Hitler. Irving appears to take every opportunity to exculpate Hitler.
This is such garbage. Apriori logic. What if Hitler is actually innocent of 99% of the things attributed to him?

>In his account of the bombing of Dresden Irving (as I have found in section X1 above) persistently exaggerates the number of casualties
This is also bullshit. Nobody had any problems with Irving's evidence before he started talking about the holocaust. He was almost unanimously considered to be the world's foremost WWII historian.

>in American schools the brown eyed children are made to stand up the teacher tells them Hitler would have gassed them
For real?

>stormfag presents laughable "evidence" of muh conspiracy
There's an extremely compelling case to be made against key aspects of the holocaust legend if you actually take the time to study it instead of judging it from the get go because /pol/ are uncultured dumbfucks.

Go on then, present your laughable evidence.

I'm not an academician, but if you actually want to look into holocaust revisionism, you should probably start with the documentary made by David Cole (jewish). He films a tour of the Auschwitz museum and just BTFO the exhibits. It doesn't take a genius to see that there's some fishy stuff going on.

Nope. I never learned about the holocaust in school, in fact European history was glossed over pretty heavily in favor of ancient and American history.

I think I learned about Greece/Rome six separate times and the Revolutionary/Civil wars three times through my public school career, and WW2 exactly never.

>This is such garbage. Apriori logic. What if Hitler is actually innocent of 99% of the things attributed to him?
Then why don't you read the sections where he deals with the evidence? I provided you the link.

If you go down just a little bit

>13.149 The prime example of this is Irving's dismissal of Bischoff letter of 28 June 1943 dealing with the incineration capacity of the ovens at Auschwitz (to which I have referred at paragraph 7.106 and 7.120).As already stated at paragraph 13.76 I agree with the assessment of van Pelt that there is little reason to doubt the authenticity of this document. Yet Irving argued strenuously that it should be dismissed as a forgery. In my judgment he did so because it does not conform to his ideological agenda. Similarly Irving devoted much time to challenging the authenticity of Muller's instruction to furnish Hitler with reports of the shooting. I believe that he did so because this was for him an inconvenient document and not because there were real doubts about it genuineness. (Irving ultimately accepted its bona fides). There were other occasions when Irving sought to cast doubt on the authenticity of documents relied on by the Defendants (for example the Anne Frank diaries and the report of the gassing of 97,000 Jews at Chelmno referred to at paragraph 6.71 above). In neither case did Irving's doubts appear to me to have any real substance. His attitude to these documents was in stark contrast to his treatment of other documents which were more obviously open to question. One example is Irving's unquestioning acceptance of the Schlegelberger memorandum despite the uncertainty of its provenance. Another is his reliance on Tagesbefehl No. 47 in the teeth of mounting evidence that it was a forgery. In my judgment there is force in the Defendants' contention that Irving on occasion applies double standards to the documentary evidence, accepting documents which fit in with his thesis and rejecting those which do not.

I'm from Texas and can confirm this did indeed happen to me

>mature and respectful discussion

Californian here. We did that.

Prove me wrong then dumbfuck.
>HURR y u no listen to my case?
Present you case then, if its that compelling.

No it didn't you lying turd, its a meme.

>13.150 As I have already observed in the course of dealing with the historiographical criticism of Irving, there is a comparable lack of even-handedness when it comes to Irving's treatment of eye-witnesses. He takes a highly sceptical approach towards the evidence of the survivors and camp officials at Auschwitz and elsewhere who confirm the genocidal operation of gas chambers at the camp (Tauber, Olere, Wisliceny, Hoss and Miller). But in relation to other witnesses (such as Hitler's adjutants, Christa Schroder and Voigt), where there is greater reason for caution about their testimony, Irving appears to adopt it uncritically. I accept that Irving had interviewed personally many of the witnesses in the latter category and so could form his own assessment. Even so, the contrast in approach is remarkable.

>13.151 The double standards which Irving adopts to some of the documents and to some of the witnesses appears to me to be further evidence that Irving is seeking to manipulate the evidence rather than approaching it as a dispassionate, if sometimes mistaken, historian.

>This is also bullshit.
How is it bullshit? He quite literally falsely attributed statements to witnesses.

>Nobody had any problems with Irving's evidence before he started talking about the holocaust.
Oh yes they did. Objections to the Destruction of Dresden came out almost as soon as the book did, like how he came to the ridiculous conclusion that the bombing was some 5 times as deadly as Operation Gomorrah despite dropping fewer tons of bombs on a city that both had fewer people and was less dense and in drier weather with a larger firestorm.

> He was almost unanimously considered to be the world's foremost WWII historian.
[citation needed]

perhaps they don't do it anymore. I'm guessing you're in your early teens?

It's incredible how complex and intricate people's denial (or coverups) can be.

The claims made about stuffing 4 bodies into a single-body, wood burning oven and turning them into ashes in 1 hour because of "accumulated bodyfat" are fraudulent. Pretty much anybody can go look and see that that's absurd.

>He was almost unanimously considered to be the world's foremost WWII historian.
>A guy who couldn't even get a fucking degree

Did someone farted in your ear or are you just plain lying/trolling?

I'm a recovering stormfag who wants to learn more about the holocaust, what would be good books/sources to look into for general reading on the subject?

I'm nearly 50, old enough to know the genesis of this myth.
study.com/academy/lesson/group-prejudice-jane-elliotts-brown-eyes-vs-blue-eyes-experiment.html

The holocaust is as bad, if not worse than, everything you've been taught in school or found in the history books, the consensus by respected historians and scientists is that millions of Jews and other persecuted minorities were systematically slaughtered by the German Nazis.

This isn't up for debate, it's fact. There's a reason holocaust denial is a crime in most nations, most of the world has shed blood trying to bring this truth to light.

sure thing mate.

>How is it bullshit? He quite literally falsely attributed statements to witnesses.
I'm not sure I'm just going to believe the court on that. And I'm definitely not going to comb through it for a bazillion hours. It takes about 30 minutes for any average person to see that there is clearly alot of phoney, rotten evidence holding up the current holocaust narrative, and so I'm more inclined to believe that there's an organized effort to smear David Irving, rather than all this impressive legal word salad was crafted with honest or fair motives. Ask Ed Snowden or Bradley Manning if you can trust the courts. I sure don't.

nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi

I'm not the Texan guy but they did that to me in school too. Not that whole experiment you posted. They just told people to stand up based on characteristics like brown eyes and then said Hitler would have gassed us.

>HURR
Typical stormtard. Facts are like kryptonite to you "people".

so is the goal here to say there were no ovens or to disprove that hitler was out to get the jews or what?

David Irving is pretty much the gold standard for anything WWII, despite all the negative shit that's blasted about him.

phdn.org/negation/irving/EvansReport.pdf

dlx.b-ok.org/genesis/287000/e5c067ddea324b89370fd2e26299e8ec/_as/[Richard_J._Evans]_Lying_About_Hitler_History,_Ho(b-ok.org).pdf

Richard Evans eviscerated Irving.

>The claims made about stuffing 4 bodies into a single-body, wood burning oven and turning them into ashes in 1 hour because of "accumulated bodyfat" are fraudulent.
I am aware of no such claims outside neo-nazi blogs. If you want to know how actual body disposal was done at Auschwitz (which is what I assume you are talking about), I would recommend this.

phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

There are too many jews with history majors to debate against the Holocaust without looking insane, theres no point in trying to debunk it since jews already have a long list of crimes against European people long before this event happened.

>I'm not sure I'm just going to believe the court on that.
Then don't believe the court go look up Max Funfack himself. books.google.com/books?id=XUEgAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT111&lpg=PT111&dq=Max Funfack&source=bl&ots=_e8I8-wISg&sig=ZTM8N0IEU4THryh1-R2DKqshCtM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-ipSK-t_YAhVD2VMKHTF6CvwQ6AEITDAF#v=onepage&q=Max Funfack&f=false

This might help

>It takes about 30 minutes for any average person to see that there is clearly alot of phoney, rotten evidence holding up the current holocaust narrative,
I'm going to bet you don't even know what the mainstream holocaust narrative is. Tell me, how many Jews are alleged to have been killed at Auschwitz?

And please, go on about how the evidence is all phony.

>I'm more inclined to believe that there's an organized effort to smear David Irving,
Then please, show the evidence of this. You won't mind if I use the same standards of suspicion you use for the court system, do you?

>MUH CONSPIRACY
And there we go, the cycle of stormturd autism is complete. and in only 40 posts! A new record.

>First of all, consider the implicit conspiracy theory. Notice how the testimony of every single inmate of every Nazi camp is automatically dismissed as unconvincing. This total dismissal of inmates' testimony, along with the equally-total dismissal of the Nazis' own testimony (!), is the largest unspoken assumption of Holocaust-denial.
This is either said in ignorance or dishonesty. There is very little consensus among the testimony of alleged surviving inmates, and there have been case after case of jews either reporting events to have occurred that were outright lies or patently impossible. There were many jews who survived the camps and claimed to have seen nothing like mass extermination, in any way, whatsoever. You don't hear about those testimonies though. Only the canon ones.

Usually it's the left saying that about the right. In this case, /pol/ or no /pol/, the facts are on the side of holocaust deniers. That's simply a fact.

Uh-huh. Tell me more about how you read one line and leap to conclusions.

You're not making your side look good. Please stop

...

See what I mean no point in debating it they just silence you whether through the law or shame.

Oh well some guy thousands of miles away didn't know about it, that proves it didn't happen! Never mind the mountains of literal human ashes, numerous nazi documents and thousands of testimonies, some guy in another country says so, and that's a FACT!

I'm not the retard claiming a massive global conspiracy lasting 70+ years.

More people do that than they'd like to let on. But if you simply stick to the basic facts surrounding the existence of a human gas chamber operation in the camps, even an average boob can see what's really going on. It's a crazy world.

What debate? You literally resorted to a conspiracy theory, there is no debate, you lost.

>just uncritically believe neonazi propaganda like I do, its obvious!
Yeah, no, I'll stick to the facts thanks.

bravo america
no sane discussion we must instead turn our schools into the emotional appeal of a shitty reality show

>Never mind the mountains of literal human ashes
No such thing .The current holocaust narrative is rooted in human testimony ONLY. Essentially all physical evidence points to a huge scandal. There's a reason it's attacked like flat earth conspiracy theories regardless of the evidence.

Do you really think he needs to make “his side” look good? The overwhelming consensus is that the holocaust happened, and there’s plenty of evidence to support that it happened they way people claim it did. You’re the fringe here buddy.

Most evidence surrounding Holocaust Revisionism was established by non-Germans after WWII.

>the facts are on the side of holocaust deniers. That's simply a fact.
No there isnt. This is why you have to constantly shitpost, post irrelevant "evidence" like what you just posted and the user above you, and generally engage in what I call "leapfrog argument" where you simply put forth a denier claim, it is soundly refuted, and then instead of acknowledging this, you just move onto your next point, only for the cycle to keep going around.

You need to realize that the main reason Veeky Forums hates you is because you constantly make the same threads over and over again and when presented with overwhelming evidence that all your points are lies, without exception, you just ignore it all and keep on believing in your conspiracy theory.

As the Californian guy you replied to, it's not as thought those two things are mutually exclusive. You can have emotional appeals AND sane discussion, as we in fact did in my class. I admit the exercise was corny, and while I don't remember everything about that class (it was a long time ago), the section we devoted to WWII was interesting and fun.

And most Neonazis aren’t Germans, what’s your point?

Jews are, cohesively, the most wealthy and powerful race on the planet by far. They have the highest average IQ's of all races, too. They also have among the strongest, if not the strongest, racial and cultural identity of all peoples. They are really an amazing people in many ways.

Nazism ended with WII. "Neonazis" have little to do with National Socialist Germany, and are incapable of orchestrating any kind of grand conspiracy to manipulate evidence in a way that requires international courts and sovereign states to jump in to silence them. What is being silenced is the simple truth of what actually happened.

amazon.com/Electro-Deflecto-Unisex-Foil-Size/dp/B01I497JAM
Did you know that amazon sells tinfoil hats now? You can stop making your own.

>Do you really think he needs to make “his side” look good?
Apparently he does

>The overwhelming consensus is that the holocaust happened
Fallacy of the majority

>and there’s plenty of evidence to support
The evidence is crap and that can easily been seen once you strip aside all the official obfuscation, emotionality about it, and personal attacks. "Holocaust Deniers" don't need to call you names to make a point. Holocaust believers are required to do so. It's always the believers who are the aggressors.

wtf I hate nazis now

What physical evidence contradicts the Holocaust narrative?

Why do denier constantly post shit like that instead of any actual argument?

Probably the easiest thing for most newbies to to see right away is the claim made that 4 bodies were stuffed into a single-body oven and turned into ashes in 1 hour with a wood fire. That's how the 6 million figure was reasoned out after the war.

Because they don't have any arguments. At best they can contest the official narrative. They simply can't explain what happened with 5-6 million European Jews. Or why so many people testified about the mass extermination.

>Namecalls
>Politely refuted
>Demands evidence, argument, random.jpg

Something tells me you're not here to have a decent or fair discussion.

If you're so certain the evidence is crap, then you can prove that it's crap. Please provide that proof. I'd like to know how the Jager and Korherr reports, as well as pic related are all "crap".

denier lie exposed. What else you got?

>no argument put forth
>no answers to even one of the questions
>crying about name calling on Veeky Forums as an excuse to not engage in the discussion
stop being a bitch user. Either post an argument or answers some of the questions in that image

>They simply can't explain what happened with 5-6 million European Jews.
The official number currently stands at 1 or 2 million, I believe. The experts just can't decide just how many died. Was it 4 million? Was it 6? Was it 1? Nobody really knows. Obviously it's very risky for anybody to start asking too many questions about the details.

Can you post the page? Holocaust deniers tend to make up a lot of things.

You believe wrong. It's 5-6 million.

Yes, we are. These threads happen on a daily basis.
Calm and mature discussions rarely ever happen though.

>denier lie exposed.
That's quite an aggressive claim. But I'm still not convinced that I can put 4 raw chickens in my fireplace and turn them into ashes in 1 hour with wood, and your jpg isn't convincing me otherwise. How does it work differently for wood burning cremation ovens? Why didn't the nazis build facilities that were actually designed for genocide? Why did they murder 6 million people in small ovens made for returning ashes to families?

Many Nazi leaders had brown/hazel eyes and brown hair.

Imagine inheriting a company with THAT history

why does he always look so pissed

>Holocaust deniers tend to make up a lot of things.
Unfortunately many of them are working with very limited information obtained higgeldy piggeldy from the internet, but it is what it is. It doesn't take a genius to see that something really stinks about the holocaust.

>Soviets argued 4 million people died at Auschwitz
>no western academic, historian, or lawyer accepts this and they ignore it when considering their overall total of ~6 million
>soviets put it on a plaque that 4 million died anyway
>USSR and communist poland fall
>real number is put on it instead

Also, this image directly contradicts claims that jews are constantly inflating the number while also repressing any legitimate historical research into the holocaust.

You do know that the crematoria at Auschwitz weren't wood fired, right?

>The official number currently stands at 1 or 2 million, I believe.
You believe wrong.
And in regards to your image, the plaque never said those were 4 million Jews. So there is no mathematical contradiction whatsoever. the Communists never claimed that all Auschwitz victims were Jewish; the Soviet Auschwitz report didn't mention this, there was an oblique reference to "not less than 4,000,000 citizens of the USSR, Poland, France, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Holland, Belgium, and other countries", but that's it.

Also, history is not written by plaques. While some survivors did accept the exaggerated Soviet figures, most Western historians didn't. While initially Rudolf Höss claimed higher figures, in the end he settled on a crude estimate of 1.1 million Jewish victims, which more or less corresponds to what we know today.

The exaggerated Soviet Auschwitz estimate was never a part of the Jewish death toll estimates arriving at between 5 and 6 million victims.

The claim that this death toll was considered "the truth" for 50 years is a lie. It was so considered in the Communist Poland, but even there the literature usually quoted the "2.5-4 million" range. Hilberg's estimate, for example, was 1 million. He was an authoritative Holocaust historian and yet did not accept this as the "truth".

Conclusion: the meme is deceptive and irrelevant.

This is not good historical scholarship.

So what about that page?

>But I'm still not convinced
This is because youre a very stupid person who is ruled by emotion which is why you continue to believe in silly conspiracy theories even after your question based on ignorance is answered for you. This stubborn buffoonery is exactly why EVERYONE hates you guys. Your lie was exposed for everyone to see user.

>admit that you can't win an argument
>claim that this means you are persecuted

gas yourself

>It doesn't take a genius to see that something really stinks about the holocaust.
Is that why every single denier talking point, without exception, is a lie?

>Why did they murder 6 million people in small ovens made for returning ashes to families?
Are you a legit retard or are you trolling? They didn't kill people in ovens, neither were all 6 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust killed in the concentration camps. Not every Jew was gassed.
Many Holocaust victims died in the East to the Einsatzgruppen (Nazi Ethnic Cleansing Death Squads) which executed around 2.5 million civilians, 1.3 million of these were Jews.
A third of Holocaust victims died in death marches or worked to death as slave labour, slightly over a million people, mostly able bodied men.
About 3.5 million were gassed, mostly the women and children. The disposal and cremation of the bodies was done by Sonderkommandos which were special units made up of forced labour, mostly Jews and Russian PoWs.
Because the Germans needed the Sonderkommandos to remain physically able, they were granted much less squalid living conditions than other inmates: they slept in their own barracks and were allowed to keep and use various goods such as food, medicines and cigarettes brought into camp by those who were sent to the gas chambers.
Since the Germans did not want Sonderkommandos' knowledge to reach the outside world, they followed a policy of regularly gassing almost all the Sonderkommando and replacing them with new arrivals at intervals of approximately 3 months and up to a year or more in some cases.
At Auschwitz, the corpses were incinerated in crematoria and the ashes either buried, scattered, or dumped in the river. At Sobibór, Treblinka, Belzec, and Chełmno, the corpses were incinerated on pyres. The efficiency of industrialised killing at Auschwitz-Birkenau led to the construction of three buildings with crematoria designed by specialists from Topf und Söhne. They handled the body disposal around the clock, day and night, and yet the speed of gassing required that some corpses burn in an open air pit also.

>Official looking document in German with poorly worded refutation that skirts the primary point
>This proves 6 bazillion were gassed and cremated in 15 minutes

Somehow I remain skeptical

>Holocaust belivers
>arguments

They all have Ph.D's in namecalling at least, apparently lol

Something tells me you are not going to be open to discussion one way or the other, regardless.

>Why did they murder 6 million people in small ovens made for returning ashes to families?
you poor casuality of shitty public school education system

NO ONE HAS EVER CLAIMED THE THE HOLOCAUST WAS EVERYONE ONE OF THE 6 MILLION VICTIMS BEING GASSED AND THEN CREMATED OR THAT PEOPLE WERE MURDERED BY BEING PLACED INTO OVENS

You might want to check the link in or this one
holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com.ar/2013/10/viewers-guide-to-auschwitz-surprising_19.html?m=1

Also, source on the 6 million figure being reasoned out like that?

>Somehow I remain skeptical
Well, you arent a skeptic becuase you will believe in any baseless claim that gives credibility to your conspiracy, and you are only skeptical to this because it proves you wrong. Again, you are stubborn crazy people who just ignore everything that proves your ignorance wrong and this is why everyone finds you annoying and treats you like dogs.

You cant cry about not being open to debate when all you do is whine about people calling out your lies user. If you have a point to make, then make it. This wallowing pitty party nonsense deniers employ is pathetic.

still waiting for a denier to give a good answer to any of these questions btw