CHRISTIAN HELL IS PAGAN, NOT ABRAHAMIC

I wasn't born knowing that.
I found this out recently, it surprised me.

The first one

Most Islamic theology too, because they liberally borrowed from Oriental Christian theology.

Hell exists. But the way it has been portrayed by the church has been false. Hell is simply the absence of God. When the Bible speaks of Hellfire, it is a metaphor for the intense spiritual anguish one will experience because of the absence of God's presence. And the Universalists who do not believe in eternal punishment only believe in a God of Love. But God is more than just Love. For example, He is just. He sends the unrepentant to hell, yes, but that is what they want. An existence lived for themselves rather than for God. A life lived for one's selfish desires leads to Hell.

Obligatory 'there is no God'

Did Ancient Greeks have Hell? Tartarus seems like only for the super nasty folks. The rest went to either a boring neutral soulplane where they were apparently mostly mindless, or Elysium for the special good guys..

>"Hell exists".
Prove it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades

I've read several quotes of ancient authors admitting that Hell was a forgery made to control the population, I can't find them though, any user can help?

Okay, but we all agree that Heaven Is For Real, right?

>Believing in a little boy's account of a psychotic episode.
This better be fucking ironic.
Do you believe in the Hindu kids who remember past lives to?
And the Buddhist/Hindu monks who claim to have seen Hell?

People believe M*xicans who claim to have seen civilization at home. This doesn't seem any less plausible.

>What is Abraham's Bosom?
retard

Actually Amerindians had a higher development rate compared to europeans.

Thanks for the reply, now please, hear me out. I believe Hell exists. But it cannot be proven if nothing can. If our senses can lie to us, how can we trust them? If our reason is subject to bias, how can we trust it? Both the empiricists and the rationalists deny they need faith to come to and believe their conclusions, but faith is unavoidable. To some extent, all have faith. I believe Hell exists because I believe God exists, and why worship a Deity that is not just? I have faith that God exists because without a higher power life is meaningless. No matter how hard you try to put together a meaningful existence without faith, and with Empiricism or rationalism, (or both), you will eventually lie to yourself or will hit a standstill in the formation of your worldview.l, because it requires assumption. I hope that can clear some things up about why I believe the way I do.

Yes, empiricism requires some amount of faith.
But that faith is a lot more reasonable than the one you need to believe in Hell.
You simply believe that all your life, the things you touch, see and hear, are real, and that anything that can't be perceived through the senses requires a lot of rigorous evidence in order for it to be proven.

>regardless of whether you see patterns in what you perceive to be the universe
>maybe our senses are lying to us, therefore let's just jump conveniently to conclusions which we feel are right
That's not how it works; you've only established that empiricism isn't useful in the face of radical skepticism, not that God exists or that other methods of discovering truth are valid. Rationalism having potential faults doesn't mean you can just substitute whatever you like.

Regardless, rationalism works pretty damn well when it comes to uncovering the nature of reality. Whether or not reality is "real" or not is beyond the point.

(replying in different posts because I hate walls of text)
>"Without God life is meaningless"
I don't believe in God, and my life has the same meaning and purpose as yours: maximizing happiness, except you believe in Heaven, which lasts infinitely longer than life. I simply maximize happiness in this life, my life will end, but that simply means I must enjoy it while it lasts.
The major difference, really, is that I can enjoy a lot more pleasures than you (mainly sexual but many others).
I also live a relaxed life, free from the fear of Hell, another luxury you don't have.

This.

>But that faith is a lot more reasonable than the one you need to believe in Hell.

You only believe that because you're already an empiricist. If you weren't an empiricist you would find the idea that only physical things exist to be an enormous leap of faith. You might as well say the only faith you need to believe in hell is to believe that people ultimately get what they deserve, which is a very tiny leap of faith for anyone that isn't a cynically, which is why the vast majority of cultures in this earth came to the conclusion that bad people are punished after death while only one culture came up with empiricism.

>Empiricism -> only physical things exist
No. I believe thought and mind exist, those are not physical.

>Hell exists because justice
Yes, and a lot of really good people will go to Hell forever because they didn't believe in ridiculous fairy tails, you call this "getting what they deserve".

Also

>Rationalism having potential faults doesn't mean you can just substitute whatever you like.
Sure it does, he can do whatever he wants.

>Regardless, rationalism works pretty damn well when it comes to uncovering the nature of reality.
Rationalism has done a piss poor job of "uncovering reality" to the point that rationalists would rather deny the existence of consciousness than admit that rationalism doesn't work..

>I also live a relaxed life, free from the fear of Hell, another luxury you don't have. I don't believe in God and worship him because I fear hell. I do it because he is the creator and master of the universe, and because the sheer glory of his creation (however tainted it may be
because of us) I do it, because he cared enough to die for us, and because he has stood for us, even in humanity's darkest hours, and given us a way out of just letting us do as we will.

>"He can do whatever he wants"
This is under the premise that God exists. Prove it.

>Rationalists deny consciousness
What rationalists? I certainly don't.

>No. I believe thought and mind exist, those are not physical.
Then you're not a rationalist as the thoughts and minds of other cannot be touched, seen, or heard.

It's a fucking story book nobody cares. Let's all argue over how many legs dragons should have. Totally relevant.

>God exists and He died for us
Prove it.

>I don't believe in God and worship him because I fear hell.
I call bullshit.

>Rationalism means things that can't be touched, seen, or heard don't exist.
Radio waves can't be touched seen or heard, they exist because they manifest themselves in other ways, just like the minds of others.

Believe what you will, man. I don't worship God to get something from him. That's like having friends to just bum off them. It's pathetic and shallow, and why Evangelical "Christians" give the rest of us a bad name.

>This is under the premise that God exists. Prove it.
Oh fuck off with your babby's first atheist talking points, I'm not some evangelical rube here to be awed by awesome canned debate skills. God doesn't come into the equation, NO ONE has to abide by the epistemological rules of you or anyone else. If he wants to tell rationalism to fuck off along with the Enlightenment horse it rode in in, he has every right to.

Radio waves can be heard dingus, how do you think a radio works? Oh and don't even try to counter by saying that in that case you can see a person's mind through electroencephalography, because you're not actually seeing the person's mind just electrical signals that allegedly correlate with that person's mind.

>"We have every right to encourage people to repress sexual urges, even though this has been proven to be very unhealthy, and also threaten them with eternal torture, with no evidence whatsoever, and we also have no evidence to back up our claims"

We experience other people's minds through the senses. It's as simple as that.

" allegedly correlate"
Implying there isn't an overwhelming amount of evidence explaining the correlation in increasing detail.

>what is the Harrowing of Hell

>he can do whatever he wants.
That's true, but nobody is going to be convinced by him just pulling non-arguments out of his ass.

>Rationalism has done a piss poor job of "uncovering reality"
????

You ever heard of this thing called "the scientific revolution"? As it turns out, trusting ancient """wisdom""" is a much less effective way of uncovering reality than applying human reason towards experimentation and observation.

Or they just named their mythical patriarch after the local equivalent of "wise-man."

>protestants make idiots of themselves episode 500+1

2 Maccabees 7:36 For my brethren, having now undergone a short pain, are under the covenant of eternal life: but thou by the judgment of God shalt receive just punishment for thy pride.

Wisdom 6:9 But a greater punishment is ready for the more mighty.

Judith 16:21 For he will give fire, and worms into their flesh, that they may burn, and may feel for ever.

Sirach 7:19 Humble thy spirit very much: for the vengeance on the flesh of the ungodly is fire and worms.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go out, and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched: and they shall be a loathsome sight to all flesh.

Hey faggot, "Abraham" is pronounched "Avarham" in actual Hebrew

Silence.

>Maccabees, Wisdom, Judith, Sirach
are there other names for these books?
I can´t find these names in the OT...

>Isaiah 66:24
Granted, it has the fire thing. But it's talking about dead bodies, not souls, and in a very specific context (after the "Great Battle of The Lord") not the afterlife that everyone goes through.

All these books, except Isaiah, are not part of the OT, they are part of "Apocrypha"

2 Maccabees was written in Alexandria, in Greek.
The Book of Wisdom was written in the C.E.
The Hebrew version of Judith is from the Middle Ages (definitley a mix of Greek and Jewish influence here).
The book of Sirach also had an upbringing mixed with the Greeks.

The fact remains, it's not in the OT.

"Sirach is not part of the Jewish canon, once thought to have been established at the hypothetical Council of Jamnia (1st century), perhaps due to its late authorship, although it is not clear that the canon was completely "closed" at the time of Ben Sira."

(Regarding Isaiah)
Early modern-period scholars treated Isaiah as independent collections of sayings by three individual prophets, brought together at a much later period, about 70 BCE (the romans appear), to form the present book.

The book of Judith is Greek, originally.

Why do people always make this dichotomy between pagan mythology and Christianity as if Christianity and Judaism is incapable of forming its own mythologies?

Modern Judaism today is almost totally defined by a bunch of made up bullshit not in the Bible. Angles clearly developed as an idea and classic aesthetic in European Christianity over the centuries with nearly no biblical inspiration.

It seems pretty likely to me that Jews in Jesus's day and early Christians believed a lot of stuff that was popular folk religion of the time, but isn't strict canon. Demons/malevolent spirits have even less basis but we have a solid record of Jesus supposedly performing an exorcism, as if such a thing is normal, in his own day.

Did you just say that Angels aren't in the Bible?
Im certain that they are

>mfw this applying the Roman idea of hell is purely american
>mfw it's simply the extinguishing of a soul not eternal suffering

They're in the bible, but the omnipresent image of the winged angel is not. Nor are they a major feature of the bible like they are in evolved Christianity. Nor is there any coherent idea of an organized kingdom and eco system of angles in heaven. The idea of a personal guardian angel is completely cultural, as far as I know.

Joseph and Jacob did go to Hell though. The Bible says Jesus descended to Hell and rescued them.

There's a difference between Abrahams Sheol/bosom and the Sheol of the damned.

This isn't surprising. Christians created new things when coming up with the NT. Satan and hell come to mind first.

Who cares? Most of Judaism is stolen from the Persians and the Babylonians anyways. There is no authentic religion.

Sheol/Hades is generic afterlife where some experience a foretaste of hell while others experience a foretaste of heaven (Abraham's Bosom). True hell and heaven are coming after the final judgement. Stop listening to Protestants.

Christianity is the authetic religion. Everything else are shards of truth surrounded by Satan's lies to inspire demon worship.

>heaven/hell doesnt exist everyone goes to the same place
>here are rules you have to follow in the mortal life

>Citing a bunch of Greek influenced books about Hell (excluding Isaiah)

This simply furthers OP's point that Hell comes from the pagans, not the OT.

> he doesn't know that Jesus was an Anti-Christ

>Hell in the OT is not eternal suffering
Bullshit.
Mark 9:43, "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire."

Luke 16:23, "and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."

Matt. 18:9, "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire."

So you are saying these Holy prophets were tortured and punished? No. This is the point precisely, Sheol is not painful, nor a punishment, and everybody goes there.

Quotes supporting this?

>"Christianity is the authentic religion."
Prove it.

Yes, this comes from the Second Temple Period, which involves the Greeks "They flourished first under the Persians (c. 539 – c. 332 BCE), then under the GREEKS (c. 332–167 BCE), then under an independent Hasmonean Kingdom (140–37 BCE), and then under the Romans (63 BCE – 132 CE)."

More points for OP

If heaven is anything like Mass, I can't wait to get to hell. You'll be in heaven with all the squares

I live for myself. God can fuck off. I welcome hell, but I suspect all religion is larping anyway

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

You accept existence with no evidence, simple as that. Let me guess; The Bible is true because the Bible says that the Bible is true? (Hint:circular reasoning)

You sound like a stockholm syndrome victim

>Betacism occurred in Ancient Hebrew; the sound [b] (denoted ) changed to [β] and eventually to [v] except when geminated or when following a consonant or pause. As a result, the two sounds became allophones; but, due to later sound changes, including the loss of gemination, the distinction became phonemic again in Modern Hebrew.

sorry I actually went out on a friday night

Sheol and hell are two very different things. Sheol is the grave everyone goes to after death where they go to sleep. When the Lord comes at the resurrection, the dead will either perish in hell and cease to exist, or live on the new Earth and have everlasting life. There's nothing in the bible to suggest the hell is forever. How could it be like the pagan "hell"?
biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sheol/

amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/30/t/hell-fire--a-twisted-truth-untangled

Punishment after death, and even after the End Of Days, only starts appearing during the second Temple, which is when they started to interact with Babylonia, Greece and Persia. It is extremely similar to the Pagan Hell, because it has fire, it uses the word "Hades" and "Tartarus", which are clearly pagan concepts

Christian Hell is literally Hades and it is compared with Sheol

Waves are related to the moon
Sin is the moon god

>Nor is there any coherent idea of an organized kingdom and eco system of angles in heaven
Of course it exists, and if you are intelligent enough you can see it. Offical version of angel Hierarchy has Serpahins and Cherubins who in NT have their own unique names.

>Angles clearly developed as an idea and classic aesthetic in European Christianity over the centuries with nearly no biblical inspiration.
No, it is just you who cannot see it in the Bible.

>Psyche means soul,
>so his "psychotic" experience had to do with soul, and cannot mean it is related to drugs, haullucinations, etc
invent new word because it is pathetic, basicaly what you say is:
>There is no soul (psyche) exiting the body, and going into spiritual realms
>It is just psychotic (soul-related) episode
Speak that slowly few times and see how ironically it sounds

Wrong, you can't even enjoy normal sex, you need to be anally fucked or have some weird fetish sex to have fun while being afraid of police. A man of god enjoys normal sex as much as you enjoy the most depraved of fetishes. You also don't get to enjoy the thought of being rewarded after death and instead you will die hoping you fucked more helpless children when you had the chance. You are sick.

>Atheists only enjoy fucked up anal sex.
Is this someone pretending to be a Christian, to give them a bad name?

Christian Hell has fire and torture. Sheol doesn't.
"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." Rev 20:14

Get educated ffs.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

But since you believe psychotic episodes like this, you must believe the Hindus and Buddhists who have talked to Buddhist angels and experienced Shiva himself.

Wrong again asshole, I am only 25% christian. Being religious is a principle. A man without any principles or morales is just like another wild animal. Enjoy your fiend life cock eater.

>People without religion have no Morales or principles
Funny you say that after calling me a "cock eater" and assuming I only enjoy fucked up anal sex.

>"only 25% christian"
>Basically admitting you believe whatever the fuck you want, without any particular rational filtering process other than your random will.
>Calls others "wild animals"

I can give you beasts of hellfire the most genius, rational, backed up, and rational reply proving that god is the way, yet you would never even flinch or give your depraved life a second look. You are beyond saving. Enjoy eternal hellfire and damnation.

You would have a stronger case if you used OT examples instead of the Gospels.

> Look at me and my moral superiority and my ad hominems
> I don't really believe it, I'm 25% Christian

Religious participation is binary. You are a Christian or you are not a Christian. Real straightforward.

by all accounts, you're coming with us

"The whore of babylon rode the beast"

"The dumbass of the internet posted on 4 chan"

Oh shit my bad.
Yeah, but this furthers OT's point.
It's not in the OT.

>"I can give you beasts of hellfire"
What do you mean? You can summon them?
Go ahead and do it then, make truth about religion clear for all of us.

I like how no one has pointed out yet that the phrasing in the OP's picture makes it sound like Judea was invaded by Hell itself