Should a Paladin be allowed to lie without falling?

In my setting paladins use innate magic that they interpret as divine. The gods if they exist are aloof and do not grant spells.

A "fallen" paladin is a cultural phrase and doesn't effect their in-game abilities.

so if a baddie comes up and asks him where the nearest orphanage is, the Paladin isn't allowed to misdirect him?

No. Hes allowed to stab him to death though.

It depends on the system, but unless his god has a specific rule against lying, I don't see why not. Lying isn't inherently evil.

Falling because you stepped out of line one time is retarded. It's bad roleplaying and it's bad world building.

say he's grossly outnumbered by them, and death is certain if he attacks them, then what?

Stabbing an unarmed man to death is dishonorable, you fall.

He posted it again, the absolute madman!

EXT. DAY. PALADIN IS TIED TO A TREE.

BAD GUY
- What is written on this scroll?

PALADIN, SWEATING
- P-pelor is shit...

BAD GUY, SMUG
-Das right

Ordinarily death would be certain, but when you have righteousness on your side anything is possible.

Depends on the rules and edition.
Hah.

The paladin still has the option to not respond. 2/10 got me to respond

The true benefit of threads like this is that it's trivially easy to spot folks who only know 3e D&D or never bothered to fully learn the rules of any other edition, because despite there being two editions PRIOR to 3e with very different rules and two editions AFTER 3e with different rules, they assume 3.x's rules are a universal standard.

This.
As much as I enjoyed my time playing 3.pf, I can tell Paladins can be vastly different from one another.
Also if you had the chance to play as a paladin in older editions. Most of the time you were just a Fighter because one of the requisite stats wasn't high enougj, and the DM wasn't such a dick about making the paladin fall, it was all on the player.
Of course alignments were much different and you had a penalty for changing it.

Women, amirite?

IF the paladin's oath says they cannot lie, they cannot lie.

Most paladins do not have such oaths.

In a dire situation of course a paladin can lie. paladins are embodiments of honor and justice, and sometimes a lie is more honorable than the truth. I would never punish a player using a justified lie that helps the greater good.

>Not exclusively playing 3.5
>Implying other editions are worth even looking at
>Implying other editions do anything correct

>Not using 3.5 as universal standard for all rules in every other TTRPG.
>Not using 3.5 to play shadowrun
>Not using 3.5 to play space games
>Not using 3.5 to play Mousegaurd
>Not using 3.5 to play pokemon
>To play Warhammer
>To play monopoly
>Do not pass go, roll initiative
>Go to jail, do not collect 200 gold peices
>Open lock is not your class skill, you are stuck there forever.
>MFW

Any vanilla paladins playing by 3.5 or Pathfinder stock paladin rules have such oaths.
It may not be the majority, but it's a large amount.

>Paladin is asked a paradoxical question
>Paladin falls

If I were to ask you if you would Kill an old lady for fun, would the answer to that question be the same as the answer to this question?

>Paladin has no correct answer without falling. Either he is lying or admitting he would murder innocent people for fun.

Falling paladins are stupid.
If the paladin does something to shift from LG then they should fall.
Lying doesnt cause an alignment shift.

He could refuse to answer.

refuses to answer and they poison the town's water supply hows about that

Paladins only fall when they act selfishly at the expense of others. And only then if it's a horribly egregious offense, or a pattern of lesser offenses.

that's what he was waiting for, smite evil!

It's a little ridiculous.
3.x's anal-retentive rules were like traditional Chinese medicine practices; complex, intricate, following a peculiar science of their own, and also wholly ineffective and nonsensical when compared to anything else in the same field.

>Paladin is captured, bound and placed in a circle against good.
>BBEG questions paladin
Where is the super good person who you are protecting from me and swore to save with your life, if you dont tell me I'll murder this entire family of super good people. When you tell me I will go rape the person and then kill them. You have 30 seconds.
>Option 1, truth: Paladin falls
>Option 2, Lie: Paladin falls
>Option 3, Silence: Paladin falls.

fuck off.

Only if that man was Nobility.

Get on the Person level, pleb.

Have you guys considered just forming a suicide pact already? Your endless shitposting won't ever change anything, but you might as well seek peace in your own fashion.

Why should he fall when this situation don't have any good solution. Unless his god isn't an hardass, he should be allowed to lie. Even then if he choose not to answer, why would the Paladin falls ? He couldn't do anything, it wasn't his fault.

Option 4, Punch the GM in the face and quit the game

>Someone citing legitimate flaws in a thing I like! LOLKILLURSELF.EXE

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Almost all of the asshats that come onto these threads and shit talk paladins are the same perpetuating stereotypical fedora DMs that are butthurt because nobody wants to play with because of their edgetarded views on how DnD is played.

Paladin is a great class and SHOULD be allowed to lie within the purview of the god they swear to if you're going by 3.5. Pathfinder is shit though, god awful shit.

If you're a 3.5e paladin, you must swear to a god and your lawful aspect aligns to what beliefs they hold to be sacrosanct, but at the same time, a Paladin is a Champion of GOODNESS not LAWFULNESS.

But they're supposed to follow legitimate authority? No, they RESPECT legitimate authority because good or evil, legitimate authority is legitimate for one reason or another. They don't have to FOLLOW the rules, only RESPECT them, which is why Diplomacy is in a Paladin's skill set, having the ability to do good in the face of those who do not want it is a key component to working within a kingdom's politics, but ultimately, the laws of a Paladin's god are only those that when broken, will make them fall.

This no lying bullshit in question is a load of bullshit because it's specific in question to acting with HONOR, and lists shit like lying being unhonorable. All of war is based upon deception. If a Paladin uses tactics like flanking, or concealing the numbers of his army for a tactical advantage, does he fall? Honor is a very loose way of saying "don't be a dick like the lawful good rogue." You shouldn't lie to your allies, but being deceptive to the lawful evil baron who is getting in the way of your doing good? Again, diplomacy is a skillset.

There is shit like helping the needy and protecting the innocent, and to punish those who threaten and harm them.

All of these tenants are equal to each other but removing the Paladin's ability to bend them, literally makes it impossible to perform their job. Thank god for 5e unfucking this fucking mess.

A well played Paladin might try to talk his way out or even plead, and when he failed, blame himself. He'd then continue to blame himself until he can put it right despite his god not stripping him of powers or title because it obviously wasn't his fault.

I can kind of see how someone could name their child Darth if their last name was really Vader in Star Wars, but I just wonder why the Jedi would let a kid with a name like that in.

>legitimate

Nice try, frogposter.

Fucking this. A Paladin is ultimately still a human.

Humans are ultimately flawed creatures.

A Paladin is a flawed Human ultimately trying to make the world a less flawed place by bringing more good into it.

As long as he ultimately tries and does do good, and his actions, by the majority, result in good, and he doesn't ignore the blatant evil before him for selfish reasons, a god should not make them fall.

Sometimes a Paladin will fail in their task.

But they're still just flawed mortals trying to do the best they can.

Its the sign of a bad paladin if they forget what lead to their failure in the first place.

Have you seen the Jedi Council? They got a guy with no legs, and a guy with a giant long, easily slashable neck.

Affirmative action could get Space Dutchmen into the order no problem.

best version of a Paladin in modern media is probably Movie version Captain America. Nice, polite to a near fault, loyal but not blindly so, generally honest to friends and allies, trying to do good within a system etc.

The important thing is they do their best. Not because they like having powers or like having rank. But because its whats right.

Yes, it's called a grey guard.

people lie all the time. not always telling the truth is a thing that human beings HAVE to do to function in a society.

RAW 3.pf doesn't allow Paladins to lie. At all. Not that this was necessarily the way it was intended when written, just that it was written poorly and the kind of autists that cling only to one edition because its actual strengths hit their tG spots too fucking hard took the poor phrasing and interpreted the rules however they want to make it fit their fedora.

>shitposting
>pointing out things that worked in older editions.
Yeah, nah.

It sounds like you just like to nitpick and pretend you have something worthy to say.

congratulations on outing yourself as not having actually read the post.

What part of "this little rule that most people ignore isn't something you should ignore" was worth reading?

I would say the paladin should be okay as long as he falls down on something soft like a mattress, but if the paladin wants to avoid damage/looking like and idiot he should probably sit down like a normal person before he does.

the guy i was responding to was telling everyone with criticisms of the rule, as written, in 3.pf to kill themselves. because the people who think paladins would fall for telling a fucking white lie cite the 3.pf RAW as their reason.

the people who criticize 3.pf are actively pointing out that you HAVE to ignore that rule to make the class usable. but loljnope they should suicide because fucking chicken tendies up there can't stand to have his special interests scrutinized.

then some fuck-wit dismissed my defense of valid criticism by going "omg he posted a frog joke" and called it a day.

you are so fucking retarded or illiterate or both that you think i'm arguing against the whole fucking point of my post.

No, he's telling you to quit bitching.

And here you are, still bitching.
Bitching, without really thinking, and bitching like you think your opinion is the only right way to do things.

Really, suicide is probably the only way you'll ever stop bitching, so you might want to consider it for everyone's sake.

>i can't put forward a counter argument so ill just spaz out in random directions.

it was a sad day when you slithered out of the abortion bucket

What counter argument is needed?

You're acting like nitpicking is a valid criticism, and you're really putting a lot of value into your opinions. It's a damn shame you think you can force people to care beyond the limits of telling you to stop whining.

At the time, he was the only Darth in the galaxy. Until the prequels came out I always assumed it was some kind of title of space nobility.

Being sworn to tell the truth doesn't stop you from simply not giving the directions to the most flammable orphanages
Oddly enough I feel like there's more precedent for lying being against their code than that

Does anyone have the screencap from MR RAGE where he explains why, if ever, a paladin should fall?

>it's a good day to die

BAD GUY
- What is written on this scroll?

PALADIN, SWEATING
-Heresies and lies

Problem solved.

>One strike, you're out

Seriously, shiggy diggy

Came here to post this. The ADnD guide to Paladins points out the same principle through the fine art of LG trolling.

Sir Geffen is a bit of a ridiculous figure, but either being a Paladin counts for something or it doesn't.

>Not playing a smug ass paladin who never lies but speaks in intricate riddles

Get on my level, you DEUSVULT shitposters.

>tfw i used deus vult before it was cool

Paladins should not be able to fall, ever.

Depends.

That's how they operate in my setting. Paladins and clerics don't get their powers from god or even an ideal, they just have them because they're born that way, and nothing can take them away or change them.

This is how you should play it. If you want to play as a paladin you have certain rules and you have to be honorable. If you don't want to tell the truth, then get smart enough so that you can twist it without breaking it.

Fun fact: in the dummy script given to most of the Empire Strikes Back cast (i.e. every single cast member with the SOLE EXCEPTION of James Jones), this was supposed to lead up to a huge reveal that Kenobi was actually playing the Rebellion (especially Luke) for suckers, and that Vader actually had nothing to do with Anakin's death. Only in Jones's script did it establish that Vader and Anakin were one and the same.

In fact, Luke's near-tantrum at the end of the movie was entirely ad-libbed by Mark Hamill when the director finally dropped the bombshell to him personally: the script he was given was a fake.

Yep. Allegedly Harrison Ford told Hamill afterwards that he had overacted.

Depends on the setting and how hardcore you want/demand that paladins be.

You could go Inquisition mode where any goes so long as it is directly in support of a good cause.

Or you could go full Chivalry mode where even tame stuff like lying and attacking during surprise rounds are off limits.

Depends. Do they view good as a sum total of a person's actions, or as a series of categorical imperatives?

So, an Eldar?

Veeky Forums over the years has radicalized me in my views on what all can make a paladin fall.

When I first started coming here, I was definitely more on the restrictive side, but now I'm full on Stalinist USSR level of falling.

That's not even what I wanted to post, but anyway...
It always has seemed to me that the opponents of paladins falling seem to never really actually be arguing for player agency. They seem to want to get all of the additional powers of being a paladin without any of the restrictions that balance them.

Thou shalt not lie isn't even a commandment in Judeo-Christianity, and those guys have sticks up their asses.

Wow, that's some major baiting.

It would depend on the lie.

I think with lying its about intent. Lying for personal gain is a no-no. Lying to protect someone shouldn't make you fall. White lies shouldn't happen for role play reasons.

Paladins are a terrible class that severely diminish the quality of the game for everyone else. They are only ever interested in harming and outright killing their party members, and it is their presence in the rules that makes everyone shriek at the possibility of removing the worst part about D&D, alignment.

Nah, Paladins are great.

If you can't roleplay a paladin, know when its appropriate to play them, and work with your dm to determine whats allowable in the game you suck.

Also
> They are only ever interested in harming and outright killing their party members

I'm pretty sure that's only if your a LG pally in a CE group.

I can see where you're coming from, but at the same time too, I do firmly believe in the higher standard for pallys. I'm not saying I'd necessarily like to see them fall for a little white lie here and there, but even if the player running the pally is kinda dumb, they still have that high wisdom and charisma scores that should provide the tools needed to get out of most any situation without lying.

Yes.

why do so many people have a hard on for paladins falling? some people make characters that take everything that's not nailed down and some people make murder hobos. however as soon as someone tries to make a paladin (even if it's one where they DON'T have a stick up their ass) the knee jerk reaction is "make them fall. it'll be funny. haha you didn't go munchkin during character creation". why is that? is character creation that petty a process?

The thing is, they don't.

I've never made a paladin fall but I hate the shit out of them. Every paladin player I've ever GMed for has been nothing but a nuisance interested in starting party conflict.

“This is an absurd moral, for you and I both know that sometimes not only is it good to lie, it is necessary to lie.” ~Lemony Snicket

maybe it's just my dumb luck then. every time i'm on here and i see a paladin thread it goes on about how paladins have a stick up their ass, OR it's some paladin facing an orc baby conundrum, OR it's a thread about how to make a paladin workable but some fart knocker from the previous two examples decided to pop in with their two cents.

that's more a reflection on the players than the class itself. then again i don't know ALL the circumstances of ALL the paladins from your games.

Because it's a Veeky Forums meme going back basically as long as this board has been around.

Paladins should be expected by all and especially by their peers to be always honest, but the oaths themselves should say nothing on it,

It's scary how people don't realize how right you are.

My take is that lying is a Chaotic act. Paladins won't fall for telling /one/ lie they way they would for one Evil act, but lie enough and it eventually adds up to Neutral Good.

> "H...How did Daddy die?"
> "He was impaled by a barbed spear. He died soiling himself and crying. I told him he had to hold on a little longer, but he begged to be put out of his misery. His last words were: 'I don't care if I never see my little girl again, just make it stop.'
> I am very, very sorry for your loss."

Versus:

> "He died bravely, fighting to the end."

Sometimes the rules of society and morality would both dictate that lying is the proper course in a given circumstance, so yes.