The devil tells you that you must defeat the BBEG

>the devil wears my face and tries to tell me what to do

...

He's just trying to manipulate me, but my goal was to kill the big bad anyway. I'm going to end up killing the devil on the adventure anyway. Also a third even bigger badder evil that is behind everything. Also my friends are probably going to die. I'm probably not going to survive a final sacrifice at the end either. This is going to be a very bloody and tragic adventure and no one is going to come out of it happy.

>I'd much rather have the devil owe me one than vice versa. He's not a bad guy, he was just pragmatic and god wanted none of that shit.
Lucifer plz go

Congratulations, you just described EVERY FUCKING CAMPAIGN our DM does. He simply cannot have a good guy telling good guys to do good things, he has to have an evil power deliver the orders. I'd be OK with it if it was used more sparingly, but nope, it has to be done every time.

>"the devil is unconditionally evil"
I want this meme to die.
This isn't some sort of Angra Mainyu shit, where he is literally Evil with a big E, not because he wants to, but he was born that way.
Devil isn't some sort of deontologically evil being.
He has a will, and guess what, sometimes, he will do good shit too, if it benefits him.
This isn't some sort of Saturday morning cartoon, where the devil is evil for the sake of being evil.

Psst... devil here... I need you to kill me.

But heads up: if you kill be, you'll become just like me.

>the devil isn't lying
>you will actually literally take Devil's place if you kill him, with all responsibilities and drawbacks it entails

>kill evil
>acquire power

will I have to tell adventurers to kill me and take my place?

Is tempting mankind part of his "duties", or just something he does for fun? Because if it's a latter, a good man might just take his place for the betterment of humanity.

If you want to be the Guy...
His duty. He was literally established by God to tempt people and determine who is worthy to go to Heaven.
The devil is basically a middle-manager of Hell, appointed by God.

If you go by the various real-world cults that actually do worship the devil, they believe that there are two paths to godhood: convergence and divergence. Convergence means you do what god tells you and eventually you become a part of god. Divergence means you do literally the opposite of everything god tells you. Through this separation from god, you will become a god of your own power. God tells you to be nice? You have to be a dick to everyone, just to stick it to god. Like how a child's first act of evil is rebellion against their parents to assert their own will, you must take the path you are told not to. There may be room within this for seemingly reasonable behavior: IE: don't attack someone unless they provoke you; but at the core, the idea is to be as demonically evil as possible in the modern world in order to raise the middle finger to your cosmic pappa.

Pray.
>Yo God, this guy legit?
If yes,
>Well shit, we better get to work!
If no,
>Lucy, why do you do this?
If no response,
>Pray harder, asshole!

Oh, hey, guy who thinks the Devil is unconditionally evil here and I *also* want the OP meme to die where the devil is a saturday morning cartoon villain, with all the affable stupidity that entails.

>Middle manager for hell
>Have to constantly grill Belphegor as to why he's always late
>Constant talks with Asmodeus regarding the sexual harrassment problem.
>Trying to solve the problem of how to fit Legion into the conference hall every week.

Truly the devil has his own special level of hell.

>Constant talks with Asmodeus regarding the sexual harrassment problem.
It's hell, he's supposed to make others feel uncomfortable.

Obviously the sexual harassment problem is that there isn't enough of it. Just the other week there were damned souls complaining that the sexual harassment "had started again". What do you mean it stopped!?

...

I'll take the guy who's okay with me being self-aware and intelligent over the guy who would have had me remain an ignorant slave to cosmic whim.

You can leave my complementary fedora in the mailbox.

Obviously the devil in charge of that section was operating on a more advanced level. Doing it sporadically gives them false hope with makes it more painful when it ends. If you never stop they eventually just get used to it

>"No, seriously, fuck that guy up. At least I have standards."

>guy writes plot while shitting himself on drug overdose

It's hell. His boss doesn't understand that and will grill him about the sexual harassment having stopped, even if a different harassment schedule actually helps matters.

And then he'll probably deny a raise to the sexual-harassment devil so that he feels angry and takes it out on his own subordinates.

Your mailbox isn't big enough to fit all the fedoras you need.

To be fair, if you believe the SMT paradigm of God/humans/demons relationship triangle, choosing demons is not that different from choosing God.
The only difference is either existence or absence of clear and transparent hierarchy.

>Comparing videogame-based morality to real world morality
SMT is a pretty hamfisted fusion of buddhism and japanese folk religion with Christianity (and everything else thrown in for good measure). Its morality falls into the golden mean fallacy that states that the middle ground is always the best. (IE. Some Cancer is good, but too much is bad)

So you wouldn't have eaten the fruit of Eden? Honestly?

P.S. Being half-evil isn't better than being good. Being half-wrong isn't better than being right. There is no such thing as being too convinced of the truth, and there isn't such thing as being too devoted to righteous authority. These things only become negative when they are applied where they are not deserved. The issue with many real-world cults is that they tell people that they are equals with literally the creator of the universe and all life. This is objectively wrong.

>the devil just wants to quit

It is said that it is inevitable for a child to commit evil. Psychologists say that children will inevitably rebel against their parents to discover themselves as sentieny beings.

So evil is a part of nature, and intrinsic to humanity and free will. However, wisdom is knowing that you can rebel, yet learning why you shouldn't.

Answer the fucking question, weasel.

I did. I stated that it is inevitable for all humans to make the same choice, to rebel, as it is an integral part of humanity. But the experience of life consists of gaining the wisdom to truly learn the meaning of right from wrong.

Asmodesus wants Demogorgon dead?
Talk about your status quo, OP. I barely even need to bother with paranoid, check over your shoulder once and a while thou.

Okay. Let me rephrase the question into one that should prompt a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

In the place of Adam or Eve, knowing that God told you not to, and also knowing that it would allow you to think as God does, would you have eaten the fruit of Eden?

I'm not expecting a one-word answer. I honestly don't think you capable of it.

>So evil is a part of nature, and intrinsic to humanity and free will. However, wisdom is knowing that you can rebel, yet learning why you shouldn't.
Good.
Now that you've established that humanity isn't human without the presence of evil, we can conclude that by excluding evil from equation (i.e. giving in to the rule of God), you lose your status as a human.

The human is at least partially defined by his capability of committing evil. If you take that away, what's left isn't human anymore.

Have you ever read a short story called "Blissful" by Stanislaw Lem, and its direct precursor - "Altruisin" by the same author?

The human "saintliness" is defined by his choice of not committing evil, despite being capable of it.
The rule of God strips the humanity of said quality.
It is literally impossible to remain human under the rule of God.

You're implying that there is an absolute good and an absolute evil in all situations, which is objectively false.

I don't understand why you are having difficulty with the topic, considering I even rephrased it for you.

All humans have, and will, eat the apple. That is human nature.

If I were literally in a garden, as a naked man with the maturity of a 2 year old, I would eat the apple too.

Rebellion is how children assert themselves as independent from their parents.

However, when your pappy says "don't touch the stove" there is a damn good reason not to touch the stove!

Considering your definition of "human nature" is implied to have been created by the act of eating from the tree of Eden, you didn't really answer anything, but rather just did your damnedest to dodge the question.

Like a politician. A weasely politician refusing to admit when he is wrong.

>The human "saintliness" is defined by his choice of not committing evil, despite being capable of it.
>The rule of God strips the humanity of said quality.
>It is literally impossible to remain human under the rule of God.
Incorrect. God does not strip your agency from you. You are free to do as you please. But you are correct in the fact that saintliness requires the ability to do evil, yet refraining from it.

Has your statement ever been philosophically proven? How can you claim that this is false?

>you didn't really answer anything, but rather just did your damnedest to dodge the question.
Nigger, he said he'd eat the fucking apple. He literally answered your question.

I have literally no idea what you are going on about. I have answered your question 3 different times. This will be the fourth time:

The apple, whether literal or metaphorical, represents rebellion against god. It represents the desire to learn of good and evil througj experience rather than submission to authority. Truly, life is would be easier to follow the path you are told, but it is human nature to seek strife. So we create strife, and diverge from the path. This in itself is not damning, but what is damning is staying on the path of evil instead of returning to the path of good, once you learn where both lead.

I didn't see a "yes" anywhere in his word salad. I saw "inevitable" and "human nature" and a whole bunch of shit other than just answering the fucking question.

I'd eat the fruit. You would too, most likely, as would our little Trump-in-training over yonder way.

We're all Satanists at heart. Some of us just don't like admitting it.

>I didn't see a "yes" anywhere in his word salad. I saw "inevitable" and "human nature" and a whole bunch of shit other than just answering the fucking question.
I'm sorry to hear that your reading comprehension is absolute shit, user.
>If I were literally in a garden, as a naked man with the maturity of a 2 year old, I would eat the apple too.

>shit is so fucked even Satan wants this guy stopped
Time to panic.

Good. Now we can be fedora brothers.

Sorry to jump into your autistic argument, but why do you automatically define rebellion as "evil"? And why do you say it is human nature to rebel when you use evidence from AFTER we ate the fruit from the Tree? Do you know what human nature was like beforehand? Because according to the story itself, God cursed up, changed us, afterwards. And you're also neglecting the hand the serpent had in all this.

No, fuck off. I don't need a shitty hat to be an atheist.

How do we know it's really the devil?

"If it benefits him" usually means working towards the corruption of mankind, because what the fuck else would he do? He IS evil for the sake of being evil, or on others interpretations it's his JOB to drive humanity to evil and decadence, so effectively the same thing.

If you look at the story as allegorical, it represents the child rejecting the benevolence of their elder. Rejecting wisdom and benevolence is basically the most naive manifestation of evil. It represents setting out on our own path. That path may not be good, but it was the path we have chosen.

I don't believe God ever changed the nature of humanity after they were created, though when they chose their own path, he sent them out, into the world. Like father casting out a disobedient son.

The snake is, as always, the voice of poor judgement. It is the thing that leads us to seek our own answers instead of the wisdom of elders.

But the point to the story is that the path has been chosen, not just by Adam, but by our very nature. Wr are Adam. We are never content to do as we are told, but in order to become good, we must discover for outselves what it means to be good.

Eating the fruit was the first sin to be commited by men - the first act of, indirectly, scorn against God's will and thus evil

The devil's story:

>angel created by God
>got pissy
>God threw him from the heavens
>he gets dominion over the Earth and Hell
>starts to fight God

All we know is that his ultimate agenda is revenge against God. That doesn't make him automatically evil unless you're a paladin.

>Rejecting wisdom and benevolence
Adam and Eve never recieved "wisdom", and you'll need something to back up the idea that rejecting wisdom and benevolence is evil. Also, define benevolence for me. One could percieve God's creation as a cage for his playthings - humans.

>I don't believe God ever changed the nature of humanity after they were created

"The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:23

You can interpret that how you like, but becoming like God seems like a change in nature to me. If not, we merely have differeing interpretations.

>The snake is, as always, the voice of poor judgement
Again, I think we have different interpretations. You're thinking of it as an allegory, and I take it as a literal story (in a RPG mythos)

>scorn against God's will and thus evil
why is that evil?

>and you'll need something to back up the idea that rejecting wisdom and benevolence is evil.

>We're all Satanists at heart. Some of us just don't like admitting it.
The path of Satan is, essentially, remaining on that path of rebellion forever. Never changing, never admitting you were wrong. It means to be the spiritual equivalent of a toddler for your entire life.

What use is there for someone who never learns from his mistakes? What use is there for one that hurts themselves and others willingly? What use is there for one that only seeks the easiest path and never masters themselves?

They have learnt nothing in all their life that is why they are cast out.

Be cautious but don't change your plans. Just because your goals and an Evil person's align doesn't mean they're on your side but neither does it mean they're against you.

What part of actively going against the plans of the omnibenevolent creating deity by leading his servants and children into rebellion and eventually perpetual misery and fall from divinity ISN'T evil to you?

You and I disagree on what the path of Satan means, then.

And you know what pal? I have to go with him on this. I'm sorry, but your worldview hasn't changed since you were 13 (assuming that you are in fact older than 13).

>omnibenevolent creating deity by leading his servants and children into rebellion and eventually perpetual misery and fall from divinity ISN'T evil to you?
The claim of the "omnibenevolent creating deity". Some powerful dude building your house doesn't mean shit about him being in good interests. "Good" being defined by the traditional RPG defintion "Good characters and creatures protect innocent life"

Think about this: Cain's greatest sin isn't considered to be the murder of Abel, it's NOT ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS when god questioned him. His descendants made the first civilizations as we know them - a sign of man's increasing attachment to the material world and estrangement from the divine

If you have ever created anything in your life, you will know what love a creator has for their creations. A builder creates the place where he will raise his family, a father raises their children to be like them, an artist spends hours perfecting their work to truly reflect their esel-xpression. So God, a being of infinite wealth and wisdom, has created mankind. Just to be mean? That doesn't seem likely. Especially when you consider His teachings, the benevolent direction of the messages and the quality of the shared wisdom. It doesn't seem like He's suddenly going to pull a "haha, I tricked you! Black is white and up is down! I was toying with you all along!" It's a rather absurd thought.

>Genesis 3:23
Widely debated. My personal interpretation is that the apple was simply an apple. A test. The test was "do you really want to know good from evil?" As soon as Adam failed the test, he was ashamed of himself. So God essentially told him, you want to know evil? Well you have committed it first hand!

I see you're not at all interested in christian cosmology then

P.S. I hate typing on a touch-screen

>Widely debated. My personal interpretation is that the apple was simply an apple. A test. The test was "do you really want to know good from evil?" As soon as Adam failed the test, he was ashamed of himself. So God essentially told him, you want to know evil? Well you have committed it first hand!
So what would've happened if he had just asked Yahweh about good and evil instead of eating the apple?

t. person who's never read Lovecraft. Gods don't have to be benevolent simply because they created the universe.

>Widely debated
I'm aware. That's why I think that most of us in this thread just have differing interpretations

Lucifer just wanted YHWH to pick up the pace. And decided armed rebellion was in order when the boss said "we stick to the schedule."

>So God, a being of infinite wealth and wisdom, has created mankind. Just to be mean? That doesn't seem likely.
The problem is God's reasons for creating mankind are unfathomable, so "He's actually evil" is as good an explanation as any, even if it's the edgy position. Our understanding is limited, that's why we can't make sense of His motives and decide for ourselves if they're good. All we can do is trust him, or stand in pointless defiance.

>t. person who's never read Lovecraft.
>bringing Lovecraft into a discussion about the Old Testament

I tip my fedora and bask in sudden euphoria, if he starts to take offense I'll remind him that it's nothing personal.

>He has a will,
He thinks he has a will. This is where the pride starts to come in.

Then they would understand good and evil, but not KNOW evil as they later did via experimenting human mortality and suffering due to their disobedience. In their unsoiled state that was fully in tune with God's will and therefore everything that was good and the good only, they would have most likely never even entertained the thought, anyways

It's not a matter of intelligence, it's that I'd rather help someone who's polite and treats me with respect over someone who acts like a self-entitled child. I'd much rather help a smiling devil than a dogmatic god.

The part where you're screwed is that a lot of self-entitled people are good at faking respect for a short while. Especially if they've been doing it since the creation of mankind.

So you don't understand what "knowledge of good and evil" was supposed to mean, right?

Better than the god that goes "YOU SHALL SERVE ME"

not BTW
I'd still want something in return.

The devil wants your fucking RUIN as he does with all of humanity. Yes, he can be charming and kind on moments, but his endgame is human suffering and spiritual decay. His whole motivation is that his war against dad didn't work so now he spends the rest of eternity fucking shit up out of spite

The god is at least honest with his intentions and therefore trustworthy, fuckface.

>The god is at least honest with his intentions
Where did you learn how to read God's mind?

>charmed into giving up your immortal soul
Did you learn nothing from the fall of Eden?

Why would god ever lie when it would be easier to turn a falsehood into the truth?

>taking the middle road
Booo. You need to work inside the dilemma.

Why would a god wish for mortals to serve them?

When did you learn what God's interests were?

Answer my question, retard.

I don't know, becuase I am not God.

Answer my questions.

Servitude to god is essentially an attempt to repair the connection that was severed during the Fall of Man and bring humanity back to its former glory and holiness

But user the dilemma is that there are no dilemmas except the ones we put ourselves in

That doesn't answer the question. That explains why humans who have knoweldge of the Fall of Man would serve God, not why he would want them to.

>Why would a god wish for mortals to serve them?
The same reason a parent wishes for obedience from their children.

>When did you learn what God's interests were?
He laid them out pretty fucking clearly.

>The same reason a parent wishes for obedience from their children.
Sense of property? That's a shitty fucking reason.

Because something emphasized very often on christianity is god's love for mankind.

>The same reason a parent wishes for obedience from their children.
Explanation, please. Also, not all parents give a shit about their children.

>He laid them out pretty fucking clearly.
Where? In the Bible? Because the Bible is written by prophets, not God. Falliable human beings.