What's your favourite way to make Paladins fall?

iluvmen
iluvmen

What's your favourite way to make Paladins fall?

I use the ole archfiend -disguised-as-a-beggar trick: either he A). Disregards the hapless beggar on the street for which he is punished for not aiding Good or B). Gives the beggar a coin for which he is punished for willfully aiding evil. Either way his bitch ass is falling

Techpill
Techpill

@iluvmen
thats not how that works

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@Techpill

/thread

Snarelure
Snarelure

@iluvmen
WELCOME EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!
IT'S ANOTHER EPISODE OF......
OP IS A GIANT FAGGOT!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, blow your fucking brains out in front of your family, because that's the only way they're going to give you attention. Do it.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@iluvmen
Why would A happen? You said it yourself, the archfiend is evil. Why would he fall for refusing to aid evil?

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@Supergrass
But the paladin doesn't know that Einstein

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@iluvmen
What's your favourite way to make Paladins fall?

Better question. What is with the obsession some people have with making Paladins fall?

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Boy_vs_Girl
He doesn't know he's good either.

takes2long
takes2long

@Boy_vs_Girl
which would make it so if he gives the beggar a coin, he won't be willfully aiding evil

BECAUSE HE DOESN'T KNOW ITS EVIL

Congratulations, you've disproven your own premise, retard

hairygrape
hairygrape

@haveahappyday
Autistic Edgy Atheists.

WebTool
WebTool

@haveahappyday
Even better question. Why bother with all the shenanigans? Just say the paladin falls! You're already abusing your power as DM and being a jackass, so why not go all the way?

eGremlin
eGremlin

@iluvmen
2017
Wanting to make the paladin fall
Trying to Lawyer morality, especially with the shittiest fucking "trick" in the book.

Supergrass
Supergrass

responding to bait

farquit
farquit

@iluvmen
Why is the Archfiend disguising himself as a beggar in the first place? Wouldn't he have a fuckton of minions to do shit like that for him?

takes2long
takes2long

@iluvmen
With a trap door!

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Supergrass
@Boy_vs_Girl
@takes2long
What is detect evil

Any sane fucking paladin would detect evil everything, thus also disproving OP's point because A, the paladin KNOWS the beggar is obviously an evil entity and B OP is a massive Faggot.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Deadlyinx
the paladin doesn't even have to detect evil, unwittingly helping evil is not the same as willingly helping evil

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Deadlyinx
I would know something is up if the beggar pings at all. In 3e/3.5/PF that means he has at least 5 HD. In 5e that means he's a demon/dragon/undead/etc. So the second he pings as anything you know something is up, it doesn't even have to be evil.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Deadlyinx
I was going on the assumption that the paladin doesn't just use detect evil on everything, because it's honestly sort of rude if you think about it.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Raving_Cute
even then they wouldn't fall.

takes2long
takes2long

@iluvmen
I prefer to A). Do something actually clever or B). Not do it all and run a game that is fun

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Techpill
Fpbp.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@iluvmen
Grease

Spamalot
Spamalot

@iluvmen
op is retarded

iluvmen
iluvmen

@Deadlyinx
Any sane fucking paladin would detect evil everything
In what edition? Did some old GM of yours give your pally the bad touch so much you got this unreasonably paranoid? Or did your parents perhaps beat you proactively over things like not doing something that was never explicitly stated but unreasonably expected in your childhood?

King_Martha
King_Martha

@Deadlyinx
Detecting people's alignment is often considered an act of hostility.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@iluvmen
I prefer a little trap I found in a premade adventure for the X-GM line called quest for the Inn. There is this delightful little bridge trap where the party has to cross carefully or they will drop into the pit below because the "bridge" basically flips around and thows them off because it's only secured in the middle. Bit of redneck engineering. Makes a fun puzzle for party to solve. If the weight gets unbalanced everyone gets thrown off and falls to their doom(tm).

likme
likme

@Techpill
Yes it is

@TalkBomber
nice try but that's not an argument

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@likme
No it isn't.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Deadlyinx
you haven't explained why aiding evil, even unknowingly, isn't an evil act

keep trying

a moral code is not the easy way to live

eGremlin
eGremlin

@iluvmen
You don't "make" paladins fall, cocksucker. The idea of a paladin falling is for DMs to punish munchkin players who want the powers of a paladin but go against the spirit of the class by not roleplaying them. People like you are what is wrong with RPGs.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@BlogWobbles
Because it isn't. I don't have to explain common knowledge to you.

likme
likme

@BlogWobbles
Evil requires intent

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@King_Martha
Who's going to fault the divinely-appointed cop from just scanning everyone in search of demons? It might be a bit rude or awkward, but when the alternative is Paladins randomly falling for stupid stuff like the OP, I think the populace will understand.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

I actually recall one campaign where the paladin ended up doting after a NPC and she eventually became his waifu after a wedding that one of the big bads tried to crash

Being an adventurer he would be absent for long periods of time, so his waifu ended up having an affair

Every time he returned home there would be small hints, paladin didn't suspect anything was up until he literally caught the two of them fucking on top of a shrine he had dedicated to his god

He slew both of them on the spot and promptly fell, and after some negotiation with the GM, swapped over to being a woman hating anti-paladin

w8t4u
w8t4u

@iluvmen
I hate you. Here's your (you), faggot.

massdebater
massdebater

@iluvmen
Gives the beggar a coin for which he is punished for willfully aiding evil.
How exactly is this aiding the archfiend?
What does it have use for a coin?

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@iluvmen
But OP, the paladin would just keep playing as good aligned and call you a faggot. How would you handle the fact that there is nothing you can do to stop him?

SniperGod
SniperGod

@AwesomeTucker
Pardon me sir but I need to check to make sure you are a legal citizen, check your car for drugs, search your anus for weapons, search your house for pirated movies, acquire info on every penny you have, and look in your garden for terrorists or I'll lose my badge.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@SniperGod
This real-life Paladin is giving me a justice boner.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

ITT: Mad fallen pallies

I've invented a scenario called Loafception. Basically the paladin spots a poor baker's boy taking a shit in bread meant for a Good aligned noble. Already made 3 paladins fall this way in 2017.

farquit
farquit

@Spazyfool
How could that possibly make a paladin fall, you autist.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@massdebater
He was one coin short of buying the firestarter he needed to burn down the orphanage because he spent the last of his cash on chain and locks for the doors.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@StonedTime
An archfiend who goes about burning down orphanages is a pretty shitty archfiend.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@ZeroReborn
Everyone has to have a hobby.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@farquit
Telling poor people not to shit in goods is evil

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@SniperGod
remember it's my divine right to do so, sir.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@TreeEater
No its not

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Flameblow
perhaps i should of made use of >humour chevrons to signal the sarcasm

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@iluvmen
Look, it's OP again
what a titanic faggot
sucks everyone's cock

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Anyway in some sort of attempt to get this onto a topic can a paladin fall without intending to do evil? I.e how many bad things can you do by accident before you become a bad person?

cum2soon
cum2soon

@likme
Unintentional evil results from an intentional lapse in adherence to a moral code.

If you willingly take up the mantle of morality, expect to be judged more harshly than others. If you cannot dedicate your whole life unswervingly to that code, you do not deserve to represent it.

If that sounds harsh or unfair, that's because it's supposed to be. If you just want to be a decent guy, don't call yourself anything more.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

"I'm a vegan, but it's too hard to actually check if this food contains meat, so it doesn't matter"

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@iluvmen
So what's the way a paladin can resolve this scenario without falling? You did have one in mind, don't you?

Inmate
Inmate

@BlogWobbles
Because falling is when a paladin makes a fully informed, willing choice to go against whatever oaths he's made or god he's chosen to serve. It's when you start slaying the innocent because you don't care anymore, or you kill a prisoner because of how much you hate him when in all rights you should keep him alive.

It is not a thing about trickery. Otherwise a devil would be able to do exactly what you do to every single paladin, or you could just mind control them into chopping up their families and call it a day.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Evil_kitten
Detect evil when apprehended by someone asking for money.

This isn't hard, is it?

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Evil_kitten
Tells the beggar to make his own way in life and not rely merely on the generosity of others.

Not like the archfiend isn't doing his own thing already, and it's not /not/ helping them.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Methnerd
Are you OP? If not, how are you sure OP won't make the paladin fall for using Detect Evil on a civilian?

DeathDog
DeathDog

@cum2soon
So how does being tricked count as an intentional lapse in your moral code?

cum2soon
cum2soon

@takes2long
@cum2soon
@Inmate
Notice how OP doesn't respond to these.

@DeathDog
user pls

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@DeathDog
waahhh i didn't PERFORM A REASONABLY EXPECTED ACT OF DUE DILIGENCE WHY AM I PUNISHED?

"but i shouldn't have to check if food is kosher"
"but i shouldn't have to check if she's underage"
"but i shouldn't have to check if i'm over the legal limit"
"but i didn't know the goods were stolen"

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@TalkBomber
can a paladin fall without intending to do evil?
Never, being wrong isn't a moral failing.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@lostmypassword
none of those are especially relevant, being tricked would be
she showed me an ID that turned out to be fake after the fact.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@TalkBomber
Ideally, a Paladin only falls when he chooses to or thinks he should. "Falling" is more about questioning your faith or making a conscious decision to abandon it. Acts that accidentally aid evil shouldn't make a Paladin fall unless he blames either himself or his god allowing it to happen and becomes so disillusioned he loses his connection and powers. Paladins falling are hugely telegraphed things if you know what to look for; you should know a Paladin is going to fall long before he does, provided he doesn't manage to turn himself around. Also if you can read his mind because internal struggles may not be obvious to everyone.

The caveat here is that this only applies if you are roleplaying a faith based holy warrior correctly. If your Paladin can just wake up a be a dick one day after a single revelation, you're doing it wrong. Paladins train almost their whole lives dedicated to ideals, and shit that challenges those ideals become a struggle more than a flipped switch. In the case of accidentally aiding evil, the number of times it happens is incidental to how the Paladin himself reacts to it. Beating himself up over it can lead to either more thorough checks in the future, perhaps to an overzealous degree that eventually causes a fall from the belief that everything is a potential trick. Or he can pick himself back up and promise to do better without compromising his beliefs. Repeated failures at this WILL affect someone; there is no concrete number of times this can happen, the "fall" is just the breaking point where they stop believing.

However, this is only an ideal. The reality where someone can play a Paladin ignoring their mistakes and happily continuing on despite aiding or doing evil at every turn necessitates the fall mechanic to be used even when the Paladin's character still believes.

takes2long
takes2long

@Raving_Cute
He slew both of them on the spot and promptly fell
Reasonable
fucking on top of a shrine he had dedicated to his god
I won't say they were asking for it, because they didn't, but whoa!

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@happy_sad

Holy fucking fuck, someone that gets it properly.

One of the most problematic things I have while playing my Paladin is, well, guile. It's kosher for a Paladin to try to outwit Evil beings? The usual "paladins can't lie". My DM has no problems in allowing a Paladin to lie to the evil henchmen for the greater good, but it still leaves a peculiar taste. After all, I can kill evil beings with no repercussions: lying to them should be ok.

Maybe. Who knows.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@likme
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions lad.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@iluvmen
So today it's my turn, guys?

post scriptum
OP kill yourself

Playboyize
Playboyize

@iluvmen
I use the ole archfiend -disguised-as-a-beggar trick: either he A). Disregards the hapless beggar on the street for which he is punished for not aiding Good or B). Gives the beggar a coin for which he is punished for willfully aiding evil. Either way his bitch ass is falling
the paladin brings the beggar to a church and redeems him
archfiend now is redeemed

What now, fella?

DeathDog
DeathDog

@Lunatick
So what you're telling me is only Evil characters can be paladins since they don't have the arrogance to assume they can always make the Good choice

hairygrape
hairygrape

@w8t4u
Le ebin all caps tripfag :^)

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@Raving_Cute
Damn, that story reminds me of The Count from Berserk.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Lunatick
good intentions for some but not all. Name one evil act that was done for the good of all
Inb4 communism do you really think intentionally starving the Ukrainians was for the good of everyone

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Lunatick
... And evil fucking actions. It's not just have one good intention, go straight to hell, it's killing folks for the greater good or burning down the slum to stop the spread of a plague

RumChicken
RumChicken

Do you have the divinely granted means to determine if an act is evil and choose not to use them because you trust your mortal understanding is superior to divine will?

If so, why do you believe you have the right to wield those powers and be an emissary and embodiment of divine will?

There is a term for "martial hero who is a good person to the best of their ability"

GOOD ALIGNED FIGHTER

For a Paladin, "good enough" is not anywhere near appropriate. You should be literally incorruptible. You shouldn't even remotely stand a chance of falling for an obvious deception. You should always be alert to efforts to deceive or corrupt you.

If you fall for a trick it should be because YOU, CONSCIOUSLY OR NOT, LET YOUR GUARD DOWN. And so REGARDLESS of the circumstances, if you could be deceived, you were unworthy of being an instrument of the infallible divine.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@RumChicken
If a player is confident they can, in fact, roleplay a character of that level of piety, it is the responsibility of the GM to make them prove it.

Such unwavering faith and rectitude must be tested.

I haven't seen a player who could play a paladin by these rules. It means when they meet NPCs the title means something. Paladin isn't "good guy fight man" it's "living embodiment of divine will" AND THAT MEANS SOMETHING

Techpill
Techpill

@RumChicken
@Nude_Bikergirl
In Baldur's Gate, the video game, there was a paladin-specific scenario, where you had to go and protect a girl, and hand her over to the next guardian, while making sure the bad guys don't get hold of her.

The person comes to pick her up, and he has a 1/2 chance of being an assassin. If you let the assassin near the girl, she dies. If you kill the person, and he's not an assassin, you fail the mission.

The correct answer is to use detect evil. The assassin shows up as evil.

Gods give you these powers for a reason, bruh.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@SniperGod
thinking a medieval society has modern checks and balances against government abuse of power

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Techpill
Exactly my point. If you have them and choose not to, you are literally saying that you know better than the divine.

Which is heresy.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@iluvmen

How can any one man be so desperate for (You)s?

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Raving_Cute
I bestow this power upon you that will help you to distuingish right from wrong and help making the world a better place
But seriously though, using it is pretty rude so don't do it.

5mileys
5mileys

@iluvmen
This is some lazy bait folks. Shame

Methnerd
Methnerd

@SniperGod
'Well, since the architect of our world is clearly a massive faggot, we totally understand.
Seriously, fuck the idiot who created our world.'
NPCs can detect a shit DM.

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