Why are guns in fantasy settings such a contentious issue? It seems like they...

MPmaster
MPmaster

Why are guns in fantasy settings such a contentious issue? It seems like they can only ever be unstoppable weapons that kill everything ever or made to be absolutely useless to a point a dagger is mechanically a better option?

More so I think something that bothers me is the lack of story that can be built up around them. I understand a sword is a symbolic sort of weapon that has many a legend attached to it by why not a gun? More so rather than making them look like the regular plastic utilitarian sorts you see today why not something fantastic? A shotgun with the fancy twists on the barrel like you see on some iron fences. A pistol with a literal story etched onto the grip. A rifle with bone fetishes hanging off of them.

If they don't fit into particular settings fine, they shouldn't be shoe-horned into everything but then they shouldn't be so constrained and reviled as they seem to be.

All urls found in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbThC9Dt1BQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cvMy5tATjM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6tR78d0cmA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beOgmCxeh7A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH9TX5VJS4c
https://youtu.be/1nAfWfF4TjM
VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Misconceptions over how powerful guns were and how they developed and trpg traditionalists being fairly resistant to change.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@MPmaster
Most people believe that the presence of guns made other weapons obsolete, but the truth is that guns took hundreds of years to reach a point where soldiers were no longer issued some kind of sword or spear.

Guns started to appear around the mid 15th century, and coexisted with full plate, greatswords, crossbows, longbows, and spears for a good long time.

It isn't until the end of the 19th century that swords started to disappear from the military, and even today they still exist as parade weapons.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

I think you answered your own question with the first paragraph. Guns are a modern killing tool vastly superior to those of the past due to range and (with some modern weapons) accuracy. You also see a clear divide of mentality in relation to how guns should be treated. Either they need meticulous stats based on every variation, or they can be generalized as "pistol, rifle, etc.". You also have people that want a "historically accurate fantasy" where melee is the primary tool. It's just how modern fantasy has been built, not to say it cannot be changed/guns cannot exist in a fantasy setting.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@MPmaster
Why are guns in fantasy settings such a contentious issue?

They exacerbate meat points. They call further attention to the plethora of anachronisms in your average fantasy setting. Game designers somehow have an even less tenuous grasp of lethal ranged combat than they do their already laughable grasp of melee combat.

It seems like they can only ever be unstoppable weapons that kill everything ever or made to be absolutely useless to a point a dagger is mechanically a better option?

You've described your average skub war. WFRP seems to have a good grasp of guns -- early guns were unwieldy, somewhat inaccurate, and prone to failure, but when you hit something it's deader than disco. Mind you, a successful combat result with ANY weapon can potentially kill the fuck out of anything this side of a Chaos Champion.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@MPmaster
It's because of the over-simplified version of history that's used in most schools, where the medieval era is clearly divided from the renaissance by the chapter break in the textbook and it's taught that the invention of guns definitively ended the age of armored knights.

They miss the fact that full gothic plate was only invented to combat guns, and that the two coexisted for centuries.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

It's one of those 'realism' things, where it's actually just people using their own flawed understanding or interpretation of something to justify their personal preferences as somehow objectively correct.

Guns in fantasy is fine. It doesn't suit all settings but it also doesn't break a setting in two if you introduce them, despite what a lot of people seem to think.

StonedTime
StonedTime

say what you will about Destiny, it has some great guns

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@StonedTime

Rise of Iron is what I imagine a fantasy setting should be. A bunch of Conan esque warlords duking it out with machine guns and swords.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@StrangeWizard
parade weapons.

They're not duty issue, but the brisk trade in tactical tomahawks / specialized breaching tools to the military folks spending time in either active shithole indicate there's still demand.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@lostmypassword
indicate there's still demand.
as tools though right?

I doubt anyone is running around with sabers

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Evil_kitten
RoI and the Iron Lord stuff was so much more interesting than all of Destiny's other bullshit

great sets of gear too

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

It always bothers me that people believe that blades are no longer effective simply because guns exist.

I mean, you're not going to go charging into a group of dudes from a distant with sword drawn unless you're protected by magic but a knife didn't stop being able to kill people just because guns exist.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@MPmaster
It seems like they can only ever be unstoppable weapons that kill everything ever or made to be absolutely useless to a point a dagger is mechanically a better option?
That's how guns in real life work. Do you see anyone using a sword nowadays? Even with what @StrangeWizard
references, the swords and spears people were given were SIDEARMS to the gun when they shared mass deployment status, which doesn't work out for anyone that doesn't want to use a gun as their primary weapon.

I understand a sword is a symbolic sort of weapon that has many a legend attached to it by why not a gun?
Guns are a mass-produced weapon made for mass-produced soldiers. It's a weapon with a very low skill floor, pretty much any idiot can become proficient in a gun with barely any training and do better than someone who spent years mastering a sword. On top of that, gun models are very mass manufactured, printed out by companies by the truckload, unlike the swords of old which were the custom jobs of skilled blacksmiths. Guns just aren't conductive to being legendary weapons, nor are they conductive to making legendary individuals.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@Stupidasole
Nobody uses swords. Knives are more for utility than anything else.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Need_TLC
Guns are a mass-produced weapon made for mass-produced soldiers. It's a weapon with a very low skill floor, pretty much any idiot can become proficient in a gun with barely any training and do better than someone who spent years mastering a sword. On top of that, gun models are very mass manufactured, printed out by companies by the truckload, unlike the swords of old which were the custom jobs of skilled blacksmiths. Guns just aren't conductive to being legendary weapons, nor are they conductive to making legendary individuals

implying I can't have a master crafted gun custom made for me

At a distance one pistol may look like any other but I certainly defy the idea that it can't have some kind of legendary identity attached to it. The gun that shot kennedy certainly has a legacy behind it. Simply because people don't know it's proper name people generally tend to know what you're talking about when you talk about it.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@RavySnake

Yes, and you can still kill with them and there may be occasions where you have need of it if you don't have your other weapons on hand.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@RumChicken
Nothing special went into the make that shot Kennedy. It was just another mass produced gun, and the shooter certainly wasn't someone distinguished. Legendary weapons are as much about their make as they are who used them, that's why people bandy around names like Masamune and shit for otherwise ordinary katanas.

@CodeBuns
So? You're playing a game here. The guy who wants to use a sword, wants to use his sword as his main weapon. He doesn't want to be told he has to use a gun and maybe, just maybe, he can knife somebody once or twice during the campaign.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Need_TLC
the swords and spears people were given were SIDEARMS to the gun when they shared mass deployment status
while this is true, guns were not not the primary weapon of soldiers for a few hundred years after their introduction.

An army would have specialist gunner units to support the rest of their army. It wasn't entirely due to cost, since well equipped pikemen would also cost a lot, but rather due to what was observed to be most effective at the time.

Early firearms were plenty lethal, but they had extra logistical concerns and were not reliable except with volley firing. Early firing mechanisms also sucked a lot.

Eventually melee weapons did shift to sidearms, and pikes started going away. Swords were pretty much always sidearms to begin with, which is a big reason why people love them so much.

Even the percussion weapons, lever action, and revolver didn't fully displace the saber.

But the machine gun sure did.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@BlogWobbles
guns were not not the primary weapon of soldiers for a few hundred years after their introduction.
Which plays into OP's 'absolutely pointless' line. Guns and swords only overlapped each other as useable weapons during a period when guns weren't all that good.

In addition to this, it brings up another argument, the fact that introducing guns is also introducing the death of fantasy. It's the death of the sword, the knight, the nobility, of medieval culture and chivalry, maybe even magic, of most of the separation from the fantasy and reality that makes it a desirable place to go to. As soon as guns show up, you know all of it is doomed eventually.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@StonedTime

Don't think it ever really occurred to me until now how much Destiny treats multiple guns akin to legendary weapons.

@Fuzzy_Logic

I don't know if I would go that far. I haven't done the raid yet, but I think from Rise of Iron the only really interesting things have been the Iron Lords themselves and the hinting by Efrideet that there is a community of pacifist Guardians out there. Both House of Wolves and the Taken King were just as interesting, if not more so, for what they revealed about the Awoken, the Fallen, the Hive, the Darkness, and the Traveler.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Nude_Bikergirl
you could always roll up some weaboo fighting magic a la final fantasy where guns have range but don't deal as much damage as melee

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Soft_member
Because of how 'real' guns are to us, it's extremely hard to justify the idea that guns wouldn't function against bodies like they do in real life.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@cum2soon
you are already suspending your disbelief about a man being capable of farting lightning,
in shadowrun you can have mages and guns and it works nicely

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Nude_Bikergirl
Honestly, I find the fantasy millieu without them to be very odd, like they take a bunch of stuff from the 15-16c but then have a gun-shaped hole.

On the other hand, if you have people who are obsessive about them, and i've seen this, I can see their exclusion making sense. Typically I treat them as a part of it like anything else. I like ages of transition, where different cultures, different styles interact.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Need_TLC
this dude does not recognise the myth of the gun
this guy does not acknowledge the many legendary spears and knives

If there is no legendary guns, why is AK-47 or Peacemaker or a plain shotgun being put everywhere?
It's not like Gram is an actual sword, or anyone gives a damn what type of a blade Liechtenauer favored and whether he gave it a name.
If you want to look at modern "legends", you need to consume mass-culture.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@SniperGod
Not all things are as easy to suspend your disbelief about.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@GoogleCat
Because it's fantasy. Not reality. Their picture of the late middle ages/early Renaissance is as fake as the dragons that populate it. It's more of an ideal. Lacking guns is part of it, no more death knell to the fantasy setting or the classes in it.

@New_Cliche
AK-47 is a model. It's no more legendary than a longsword is. It's not a legendary weapon at all.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Nude_Bikergirl
In addition to this, it brings up another argument, the fact that introducing guns is also introducing the death of fantasy.
guns were not useless when they were introduced. They were unreliable except in volleys, but they had range and they were deadly against anyone not wearing lots of armor.

The armored knight came about in large part BECAUSE of guns. It took hundreds of years for guns to evolve to where they were too good for that.

The historical era we think of when we think of armored knights, swords, and pikes literally had those people fighting along side people with guns, and lasted for well over a hundred years

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Emberburn
AK-47 is a model. It's no more legendary than a longsword is. It's not a legendary weapon at all.
Swords that actually saw combat tended to get beaten up or broken quite a lot which makes the idea of a "legendary" weapon a little silly to begin with when you think about it.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@BlogWobbles
See @Emberburn

You also ignored the part of my post talking about it as an eventuality. Guns being there at all means that eventually they'll invent modern guns, and all those melee weapons will completely die, as will your bows and maybe even your magic depending on how that works. They just roll over and destroy any other kind of combat as they advance in technology.

iluvmen
iluvmen

@Soft_member
nothing lasts forever user

that's just a given

Firespawn
Firespawn

@iluvmen
Maybe not, but putting the death and the murder weapon right in front of your face lends an air of depression to the setting. Being in a dying age isn't a happy thing.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Soft_member
There are, I think, development patterns other than 'nothing changes' and 'everything goes just like and as fast as history'. I mean, if a fantasy world spends thousands of years in the medieval period, there's no reason it couldn't spend all those years in the 17th century or 16th century.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Firespawn
Living at all is acknowledging that you will eventually grow old and die.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@Crazy_Nice
You've been depressed from a young age, I take it? That's not how normal people think of their lives.

@GoogleCat
It's an inevitability. You need to invent really stupid godly contrivances to keep guns from overtaking everything else, and that just ruins your immersion/suspension of disbelief more.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@cum2soon
I think that is a lot of the problem
People today "know" that 9.5 times out of 10 if you shoot somebody they are either dead or dying
That doesn't work in a role playing game where you need to abstract out combat even with the idea that HP isn't meat points
People expect something to die when it is shot period

So guns either end up doing so much damage that combat devolves into rocket tag or they are made to do average damage like any other weapon and therefor appear too weak
The only way guns work in an RPG is in a hyper lethal game where a character is expected to die every session or in a game where HP is explicitly meat points and your character can survive because he is just that damn tough

And all that is just the mechanics you also have what @Nude_Bikergirl
said the idea that the gun signals the end of fantasy and the road to modernization, it takes people out of the game they can no longer suspend disbelief

Emberfire
Emberfire

@PackManBrainlure
But how does he expect to close that gap if everyone is firing guns at him?

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Emberfire
But how does he expect to close that gap if everyone is firing guns at him?
That's exactly the point. Once you have guns anywhere near a modern level of technology, EVERYONE has to have guns or they're dead. You can't do anything else.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Emberfire
A really fucking good initiative roll.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Nude_Bikergirl
Chivalric knight-errant becomes a vigilante outlaw becomes a cape.
All of those easily fit in fantasy.

@Emberburn
And what is a longsword? It isn't even a model, or a type of a sword, it's a label for a bunch of them. Not a lot of legends or epics even describe how the sword looks, because the idea of The Sword is more important than its actual characteristics.
Much like with AK - even though the latter models saw much more action, the look of 47th has become iconic, and its' idea of a cheap, crazy-dependable, powerful and ubiquitous weapon has long eclipsed any actual characteristics it has.

farquit
farquit

@PackManBrainlure
Honestly you have to invent stupid godly contrivances to have nothing change and have guns never be invented. It kinda bothers me just as much to see weapons very deliberately made for the shot and pike era used when there aren't any guns.

Techpill
Techpill

@Need_TLC
Guns are a mass-produced weapon made for mass-produced soldiers. It's a weapon with a very low skill floor, pretty much any idiot can become proficient in a gun with barely any training and do better than someone who spent years mastering a sword. On top of that, gun models are very mass manufactured, printed out by companies by the truckload, unlike the swords of old which were the custom jobs of skilled blacksmiths. Guns just aren't conductive to being legendary weapons, nor are they conductive to making legendary individuals.

I feel that you didn't consume much cowboy fiction as a youngster. The gun has a certain mythical power in the consciousness of many Americans as a symbol of personal liberty. The six-gun, and repeater rifle are legendary in part because anybody could and did use them. Guns have power, and confer that power to anybody. I don't think that's the only mythical context you could build for firearms in fantasy, but to dismiss guns out of hand because they aren't likely to be like Gram or Excalibur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbThC9Dt1BQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cvMy5tATjM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6tR78d0cmA

Emberburn
Emberburn

40K must drive you nuts.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@MPmaster
Because the modern audience has the perception that guns are basically death rays, so any stats for a gun that aren't unstoppable appear useless.

Period accurate firearms would effectively be crossbows, more or less.

From there, it's a matter of essentially not fitting the genre, tone, or player expectations. Heroic fantasy games don't want to be brought down by an overpowered weapon that's easy to use, so guns there are often weak to match the fact that you could train a handful of serfs into a firing squad with ease. More gritty fantasy games can handle lethal firearms, but those same games often have the same results from an arrow or an axe, which simply makes them more redundant.

I do think it really just boils down to the collective thought that guns can kill people very well, and players not really wanting that in the game. It also might be a bit of backlash against occasional 'That Guys' who try to have their characters invent guns in order to instakill everything.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Snarelure
Pretty much.

@Soft_member
Cowboy adventures and capes don't really fit into the same kind of fantasy setting. They're completely different kinds of fantasy, with different themes and mechanics.

And your example of an AK STILL focuses on a model. Not a PARTICULAR AK, with special powers or status. Not a legendary weapon.

@farquit
Mankind went tens of thousands of years without moving beyond the stone age. It's more likely than guns NOT advancing in technology for them to never be invented.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@PurpleCharger
And assuming he doesn't, his character is useless. It's not even a "depends on the setting" type of deal. It's a "if guns exist, you play a character with a gun". Special snowflake katanasamuraimen have no place in a world of bullets.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Emberburn
40k is scifi. Scifi usually justifies melee with stupid advancements in melee (muh lightsabers) or with extremely advanced armor technology that laughs off bullets without being too heavy.

I've said before in similar threads, that carbon nanotube based armor and weaponry might be able to bring back some limited melee use in combat, because for a while it might be too expensive to put a countermeasure in bullet form.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@MPmaster

The wild west would like a word with you.

Big iron, big iron

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@MPmaster
I understand a sword is a symbolic sort of weapon that has many a legend attached to it by why not a gun?
Did you ever wonder why, in your modern action flick, your archetypal action hero uses a handgun, while all the villains use machine guns? That's a hangover of the symbolism of the sword - the nobleman with a sword raised in one hand, taking on foes encumbered with heavy equipment, yet emerging victorious.
A pistol with a literal story etched onto the grip.
With that in mind, many hand-pistols crafted in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries did have fancy craftsmanship - especially if they were designed for a specific purpose (dueling) or for a specific person.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Techpill
But as I said, they're not legendary weapons for legendary people. The common man weapon is an entirely different thing, and cowboy fiction is a separate genre from fantasy.

Inmate
Inmate

@Sir_Gallonhead
user you also have to take into consideration that modern guns have been in existence for less time than other weapons

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@RumChicken
Mankind went tens of thousands of years without moving beyond the stone age
Says you

Methnerd
Methnerd

@MPmaster
Funny you brought up destiny, if you want an answer there it is I guess or just in vidyagames in general, just a hefty dose of well applied sci-fi logic as to why weapons which should be roughly functionally identical can do such drastically different damage to their targets, and how swords can manage to compete. Otherwise you could just go balls to the wall like any JRPG and just kind of accept that arguably the effectiveness of all the weapons isn't actually tied to their plausibility so much as stats assigned to them that everybody in the game universe can't see but can observe as long as they don't question the logic behind their odd intuition for figuring out how much better one giant sword is to another.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Inmate
That doesn't change their innate status as a weapon anyone can become proficient in with minimum effort, or how they work in people's minds.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Dreamworx
With that in mind, many hand-pistols crafted in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries did have fancy craftsmanship - especially if they were designed for a specific purpose (dueling) or for a specific person.
in those days it was pretty common to have fancy craftsmanship on all kinds of stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beOgmCxeh7A

Firespawn
Firespawn

@Soft_member
That's because smiths didn't typically number their longswords. There's no Longsword #5, and longswords haven't been used in ages, so the common person wouldn't even know if there was.

For another comparison though, consider the Gladius. 2000 years old, still a sword that conquered the world.

Still, neither it nor the AK really fit with what people are talking about with 'legendary' weapons here. They're famous, to be certain, but legendary here refers to something that's unique. It has a name, a story, a life unto itself. It isn't something hammered out en masse.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@MPmaster
Because it invites armyfags that want to kill all the wizards and dragons with automatic and nuclear weapons.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@MPmaster

In terms of world-building and actual history, the availability of firearms renders almost every other weapon and armour option obsolete, meaning that the setting automatically graduates from the Renaissance to the early-modern era. Not only that, but a man no longer needs years of training to reliably be able to kill on the battlefield, and with thousands of armed commoners running around, kingdoms become nation states, chivalric noble orders become standing armies, governments are overthrown in popular revolutions, terrorists get access to bombs and warfare takes on a whole new level of lethality.

Either the guns are plausible analogs to their real-world counterparts and completely revolutionise any vaguely traditional sword-and-sorcery fantasy setting, or they are nerfed in some important fictional way to prevent them from being mass-produced and handed out to peasants.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Emberfire
Nanomachines

Or a very good reactive armor
Not everyones are godlike Simo Hayha level of marksmens m8.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@TalkBomber

This and also everyone wants it to be hyper accurate, long range instant death sticks they can kite with or snipe, which never works well in any game system I have played.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@GoogleCat
IT's kinda funny how this shit gets talked about with guns but none of the other fantasy conceits that would probably have an even greater effect on society.

Like religion being literally obviously true with gods who actually do things.

iluvmen
iluvmen

I think one of the factors about a firearm is the day to day stuff. How much of a burden is it just to carry? How easily is ammunition made or bought? How reliable is the gun and how vulnerable is it to rain, dirt, heat & cold? Is it useful for hunting? Is it useful as a primary weapon in a fighting situation or is it more of a one-and-done tool?

@StrangeWizard
During WW1 all the way through 1918 and later, cavalry soldiers on all sides had a rifle/carbine, pistol, and sabre. After the carbine, the secondary weapon was still the sabre, and the pistol in many cases was really only there because etiquette demanded that an officer own a pistol. Bayonets on riflemen were extremely long, especially in the start of the war because there was this conception that melee fighting would be done on a dueling basis of fencing with rifles. There were requirements to some armories for extremely long-barreled rifles so that soldiers could fire standing/kneeling in ranks. So even during the dawn of industrial warfare just shy of 100 years ago when you had machine guns, heavy artillery, aircraft and mechanized fighting vehicles, swords were still an issued weapon of war.

I mean they were next to useless most of the time, but they were there. WW1 is a fascinatingly grim case study on outdated tactics & thinking clashing with modern tools of war.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@MPmaster
Guns in fantasy settings should be fairly powerful 'ancient artifacts' or loot from some faction you can't be a part of.

The limit should be the ammo. Its boring to have a six time use instagib machine, though, so have them be fueled by something interesting.
Body fat (lose n kg / use)
Blood of x, user or dragon
Curses, but you better hit, and better not fumble

Emberfire
Emberfire

@TalkBomber
Just tell them its not working with someones with hypereactive lamelar scale/armor, strong protection spell, and can fuck up your instawin meme weapons out of their trajectory with magic.

Want proof? Ask Jedi

RumChicken
RumChicken

@iluvmen
swords were still an issued weapon of war.
But they were both useless, and secondary weapons. People still mainly used their guns.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@RumChicken

There are 2 guns I'd be stoked to get my hands on. pic related for one

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Change it so certain armors are effectively high-level DR against a certain type of damage type (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning, sonic, force, etc).

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@RumChicken
@DeathDog

Another gun that became legendary

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Emberfire
An actually valid solution. But then you have people complain that the magic sword outdoes their boomstick. Then the meme weapon gets the short end of the stick and butthurt gunheads r sad wunce moore

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

Suspend your disbelief.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@RumChicken
Of course, but as a cavalryman you were trained to use your rifle, and then reach not for your pistol, but for your sabre.

girlDog
girlDog

@TreeEater
That reminds me of AoD where with high enough Crafting skill you can make yourself a gun and shoot all those roman fucks

Later you can also get some sort of power armor for the complete experience

5mileys
5mileys

@Boy_vs_Girl

Like religion being literally obviously true with gods who actually do things.

That wouldn't change as much as fa/tg/uys often like to imagine it would, given that for most of history the vast majority of real people have believed this to be the case in our own world.

What difference does it make to a mortal if the god they believe in has shown his face in public or not? All the irritating atheists would suddenly change their tune, but that's about it.

I think we're both ignoring the elephant in the room that is literal, physical magical powers to warp reality being available to regular people. THAT would fuck stuff up.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Ignoramus
The model is. Not the weapon itself. What's its name? What's it been used for? Who made it?

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Nude_Bikergirl

I dunno, I've seen it pulled off. Fantastical 1700s shit, like Pirates of the Carribbean or the better bits of 7th Sea sell the idea that you can have the fantastical alongside firearms. The age of exploration is rife with it, as you plunge into the last unknown lands with pistol and cutlass, or fight through the fields of !Europe, where old spirits still linger in the cospses and forests. I mean, just look at Dracula. That's a book all about the mystical, untamed wilds on the edge of civilization, and it's set in the late 1800s.

And then there's also the good old Weird West stuff like Deadlands.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@MPmaster
What i have for any balance in my 5e game is that pistols and muskets all have the loading property but do 3d4 and 4d4 respectively. While the pistol is vastly superior to the hand crossbow, the max cap for damage is only slightly better on the musket, but the lower end makes them average a bit better than crossbows. Is a musket better than a character with a longbow and multiple attacks, no. Is it better for a character that only has one, sure.

As for mass production, firearms for the most part were not mass produced till the 19th(?) century and even then were more expensive STILL. So firearms are artisan weaponry. So, not everyone can still have them.

Legendary firearms don't exist, but I have allowed rifling, that equates to a +1 bonus on the firearm, and other modifications might as well make them magical.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@RumChicken
Cowboy adventures and capes don't really fit into the same kind of fantasy setting. They're completely different kinds of fantasy, with different themes and mechanics.

Cowboy adventures function pretty much in the same way as knight-errants - do you know how spaghetti westerns are linked to samurai movies? A fistful of dollars is pretty much Yojimbo, for one.
And capeshit is often freely interchangable with demigods fumbling about, or, if it's about the "normals", with the same knights.

Really, now? AK, as a whole, has special powers of functioning everywhere, after taking almost any beating, and piercing even the steel rails. It has a special status of a weapon of the terrorists and the oppressed.
What is PARTICULAR abot Gram? It's a blinged-out sword that Sigurd used to kill a dragon. No special powers, just a pretty custom look and a bit of history.
What is PARTICULAR about Kladenets, a legendary sword, on the other hand? Absolutely nothing. It has no particular look, no details to describe it as anything but "a hidden sword". Even it's supposed sharpness can be attributed to the ungodly strength of it's users.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Flameblow
That kind of stuff isn't the same as fantasy, user. It's broken and dying and isolated there, something retreating before the modern world

JunkTop
JunkTop

@CouchChiller
I know that Juan or Tex travels to a mundane town and shoots some mundane bandits with his mundane gun. I'm not seeing where the fantasy enters into it.

You keep conflating individual weapons with entire models in such a way that I think you're being stupid on purpose.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@cum2soon

Simple. Your setting has some manner of widely-used magic spell makes it inherently harder to deal lethal blows, forcing gunpowder weapons into a development pattern where singular projectiles either have to be very large or come with a very rapid rate of fire to do the work that an enchanted blade could.

Basically, develop setting rules appropriate for a fantasy tale such that guns can have utility, but still leave breathing room for non-gunpowder weapons.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@Evil_kitten
This is what I meant with contrived plot devices that ruin your suspension of disbelief and immersion.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@JunkTop
You stubbornly dare to disagree with me, therefore you're being dumb on purpose.
Eh, at least I've somewhat collected my thoughts on the matter.

Just a remark on my way out: unmistakably magical powers weren't a feature of legendary swords per se, only those of them that were supposed to be "purity tests" for their wielders, and represented heavenly mandate to rule or to judge.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Sword worship by retards.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@SniperGod
It's more that you keep insisting AK-47s as a monolith vs. individual swords like Gram. It's so patently obvious the difference.

Only if you're only looking at Christian myths and fantasy.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Spazyfool
Then everyone was just an average joe of no distinguishment, and this isn't conductive for a game about individual heroes.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Spazyfool
Man this guy must have been pretty butthurt in one of those katana cuts through anything threads to post shit like this.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@kizzmybutt

Okay, what about urban fantasy?

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Carnalpleasure

This is what I meant with contrived plot devices that ruin your suspension of disbelief and immersion.

Keep in mind there's decent odds you're playing a game in a setting with wizards, resurrection spells, and giant firebreathing lizards that fly in spite of impossible anatomical design.

There's a lot of room to ignore how reality works in fantasy settings while still being immersive.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@Deadlyinx
Completely different focus and style from traditional fantasy. More like cyberpunk than anything frankly.

@Sharpcharm
But such an obvious and specific and widespread spell targeting guns alone completely takes you out of the setting.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@DeathDog
Yeah. It's almost like you shouldn't even bother with something like that and just suspend your disbelief to the point where the two weapon types can coexist for the sake of the game without some kind of contrivance.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Spazyfool
That's not how people work, user.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Deadlyinx
I want to see a setting based on this.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@Nude_Bikergirl
cavalry with sabers was useful right up until mass machineguns were made.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@DeathDog

But such an obvious and specific and widespread spell targeting guns alone completely takes you out of the setting.

The specific formulation of said magic was for a setting where it was harder to deal lethal blows in general. Basically, how any setting that operates with a non-realistic way of handling injuries where getting hurt doesn't instantly kick off a death spiral can easily be adapted such that whatever wonkery enables "RPG injuries" locally also nerfs guns.

I mean, if you want to be a stickler about it, the way that most settings in general handle damage from getting slashed with a sword is unrealistic since you aren't getting forced into days and weeks of bedrest afterwards.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Deadlyinx
what triggers me about this is the christian dark ages bit, christian monks and the papacy were the largest patrons of the sciences for hundreds of years, and the so called dark ages were full of technological advancement, such as crop rotation.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@SniperGod
Cavalry with sabers were useless from the moment the dragoon was invented.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Nude_Bikergirl
dragoons were cavalry that carried sabers! at first they were infantry that rode horses, but they became cavalry that was just as likely to use their carbine as they were to charge with their sabers!

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Playboyize
Yes, I know they had sabers. The point is that the sabers were just irrelevant sidearms to the gun. Everyone had to use a gun or fuck them. That's not conductive to someone who wants to be some sword wielding melee fighter.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Stark_Naked
Then remember well user, once you see /k/uk player, you'll kick him outright. They're enemy of fun, imagination and reason.

askme
askme

@StrangeWizard

In fact, the last time swords were seriously used as a combat weapon was World War II: contemporary history, in other words, alongside the lance.

Inmate
Inmate

@cum2soon

Outlaw star castergun

JunkTop
JunkTop

best Destiny gun.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@Boy_vs_Girl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH9TX5VJS4c

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@cum2soon
@Inmate
Scifi.

@Boy_vs_Girl
Urban/modern fantasy.

King_Martha
King_Martha

@MPmaster
what I really hate is when people vehemently keep firearms out of their fantasy setting but keep everything else that led to said guns

"so you're saying that there (points to ships firing cannons), and that (gestures to a fireworks display) and these (holds grendado) are perfectly acceptable alongside giant flying reptiles farting lightning and clearly consuming too many alcoholic drinks whilst smoking, short little people alongside people of titanic proportions, a man able to hammer out weapons and armor faster then ford puts out new trucks, and that god damned bastard wearing a dress turning toads into troglodytes. But somehow, even though i am capable of shaping adamantite into any shape i want to any size i want i am completely incapable of making a hand-held cannon?

happy_sad
happy_sad

@askme
They were hideously ineffective weapons for soldiers from poor countries.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@King_Martha
Because if you make your cannon, you're rendering the rest of the party worthless.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@JunkTop
not Queens Breaker
not Tlaloc
not First Curse
not Lord High Fixer
not Found Verdict
not Thorn
not Her Benevolence
not Pocket Infinity
not oryx

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Emberburn

Then why is it on a flag of all things? And concerning the "mass-produced soldier", why is it that Simo Haya and Alvin York who hardly had formal military training managed to grossly outpace not only the greatest professional swordsman but also the mass-made troops who were their adversaries?

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Poker_Star

Doesn't list the Khavostov

Comrade, please

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Gigastrength
Are you claiming that hoe is a legendary weapon?

Because snipers retain a modicum of the mystique of skill and singular achievement that skilled warriors did in times past. They're not mass produced, they're too skilled to be. It's the same way people would feel about more snipers and SFAs if people actually got to know their names.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@lostmypassword
I once again gesture to said living super factory and poly-gician

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Gigastrength
Also that post was about weapons. Nobody praises Simo's gun as anything special.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@Nojokur
Doesn't matter if you can just shoot them in the face before they can use their fancy tricks.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@ZeroReborn
that is not true khavostov.

new paint?
uncracked lens?
perks?

get that nu-khavostov away from me

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Gigastrength
Because farming equipment is also legendary amirite?

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Lunatick
and it doesn't matter if I get turned into a damned amoeba, lightning to death, resurrected, stomped to death, and then brought back as an undead hooker just to rub it in before I can pull the trigger.

the doesn't matter argument goes both ways try something better

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Crazy_Nice

400 years sitting on the side of a box
Proceeds to remove 4 arms the second it is picked up

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@Poker_Star
not Lord High Fixer
Of all the legendary HC's you chose that piece?

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Methnerd
Casting times are never that fast, user.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@BlogWobbles
Fling a fireball or fire off your flintlock, it's usually all the same standard-action-or-equivalent.

happy_sad
happy_sad

Why is it okay for wizards to have a thousand save or die spells, yet giving the fighter a single weapon that gives save or die to unarmored fleshy humanoids a sin? The only end-game, level 20 characters that firearms are actually able to kill (and that's if you're very liberal with the definition of "firearms" to include 120 mm cannons) are martials themselves.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@BlogWobbles
Depends on the setting user

If the setting are enabled the magic user to insta cast it, then he sure be able to do it.

Also, did you say that the wizard wasn't also prepared with +3 super reactive enhanced robes?

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@happy_sad
save or die
More like die or die.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

trying to build a setting
having trouble introducing firearms smoothly
come to Veeky Forums
Oh, hey! There's a thread about this exact thing!
Maybe I'll gain some useful anecdotal insight into the subject.
autism everywhere
muh great equalizer

why must you hurt me so

iluvmen
iluvmen

@Sir_Gallonhead

Because user, somehow you can't be a night and wield a gun unless you're dolled up in full plate and wielding a sword being a mundane nobody while your wizard friend can conceptualize realtiy as a woman and fuck it at will.

Methshot
Methshot

@iluvmen
When someone wants to play melee, they want to play melee, not be told 'fuck you, use a gun'.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Harmless_Venom
Guns don't stay at flintlock forever. A hundred years and everyone will have machine guns to mow all that magic down.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Methshot

Then use a fucking sword then? I thought that was the whole point of playing pretend?

JunkTop
JunkTop

So why dont people just treat guns like faster bows? or just make ammo difficult to find

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@BlogWobbles
And get mowed down by anyone using a gun?

Nojokur
Nojokur

@JunkTop
Break the suspension of disbelief.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@BunnyJinx

Last I check real life didn't have things like AC or damage reduction or magic armor for that matter. Is this really a hard thing for people to understand?

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Lunatick
AC or damage reduction
You know those are just mechanics to represent things like dodging and armor right? That a bullet is too fast to dodge and strong enough to pierce armor?

hairygrape
hairygrape

The word "gun" came from a legendary firearm called Gunhilda
People who think that guns can't be legendary weapons are wrong.

Techpill
Techpill

@RumChicken

Bonus page from the previous issue even gives me an idea of why you might have badass guns in your fantasy campaign. Just have an angel or devil invent it then give the idea to humans just to watch them kill each other, like the nightmare Prime Directive scenario.

Methshot
Methshot

@Lunatick
no damage reduction
posts Phogoth

fuck that and fuck Phogoth

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Need_TLC
the swords and spears people were given were SIDEARMS to the gun when they shared mass deployment status

Not really.
Units like Landsknechts spent a long time arming their formations with a mix of greatswords, pikes and guns, because the unit needed all three.

Guns for range, pikes when the enemy got in close, and greatswords to hang near the front chopping off the ends of the enemies pikes.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@BunnyJinx

You already get mowed down by wizards. There is a hard limitation towards being a martial, but even in fantasy you can work around it. For example, in Star Wars, Jedi are able to deflect blasters with their lightsabers. Allow skilled fighters to parry spells and bullets with their sword, with the effectiveness varying depending on the type and material of blade.

WebTool
WebTool

@Burnblaze
You can only think in terms of DnD huh? We're talking about fantasy as a genre.

Star Wars
Scifi.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@BunnyJinx

You are getting mowed down by anyone using a longbow.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@w8t4u

Yes they are game mechanics because in real life I can't deflect arrows with my sword or move at superhuman speeds while in game I can as that is represented by the roll of a dice that may have the spray of bullets miss me as I charge at it and if they hit they still have to get through my defence and deal damage which doesn't immediately incapacitate me same way as if the guy swung a sword and hit or missed.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Need_TLC
On top of that, gun models are very mass manufactured, printed out by companies by the truckload, unlike the swords of old which were the custom jobs of skilled blacksmiths.

"Munitions" grade weapon and armour was a thing.
Swords and basic suits of armour were mass produced by blacksmiths. It's what apprentices learned on.
Not every sword or breastplate was a masterwork only affordable to nobles.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Skullbone

The pike chopping was a meme. Greatswords simply chopped the guy holding the pike because the time they got that close to the formation, the pikeman had to use his own inferior short blade if he wanted to actually engage a dopplesoldier.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@hairygrape
It's from a legendary ballista. Aka, a giant crossbow.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@MPmaster
Why are guns in fantasy settings such a contentious issue?

Because of Americans.
The United States has some kind of mythological hard-on for guns.
Whereas the Brits have a hard-on for swords and knights.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@AwesomeTucker
You're delusional if you think they gave armor to peasants. They wore leather and used polearms.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@eGremlin
Suspension of disbelief, again. Also this is sound more like anime than fantasy now.

idontknow
idontknow

@Spamalot
peasants
out fighting in wars that aren't revolts
I wish this peasant levy meme would end already.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Need_TLC
Guns are a mass-produced weapon made for mass-produced soldiers. It's a weapon with a very low skill floor, pretty much any idiot can become proficient in a gun with barely any training and do better than someone who spent years mastering a sword. On top of that, gun models are very mass manufactured, printed out by companies by the truckload, unlike the swords of old which were the custom jobs of skilled blacksmiths. Guns just aren't conductive to being legendary weapons, nor are they conductive to making legendary individuals.

There is literally nothing preventing a fantasy setting from having one-off legendary guns alongside mass-produced ones, much like they already have one-off legendary melee weapons alongside the more common ones you grab at the local weapons shop.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Sir_Gallonhead
You're posting in a skub/bait/cancer thread, user.
Anyone uninterested in skub/bait/cancer would treat guns as, essentially, more expensive versions of the crossbow (perhaps 1d6 for a pistol and 1d8 for a rifle - play around with these numbers) that can be used untrained at some penalty. Perhaps one relating to reload times.

I do, of course, assume you are talking about single-shot pistols and single-shot rifles. Like what Jack Sparrow might pull on you.

For gatling guns and really anything that came out after the early to mid 1700s, you're on your fucking own user.

TechHater
TechHater

@SomethingNew

And how is anime not fantasy? Is it because they are nips who can do more then swing a bar of iron while having wizards with cosmic power while all being blonde haired blue eyed nords.

I bet you also think Vikings had horns on their helmet to.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@idontknow
He thinks they had standing armies before the late middle ages.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Burnblaze
Other than guns killing the fantasy setting.

That line though was talking more about why we see guns the way we do now, and what they do to a society as common man's weapons.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Burnblaze

A hundred years from Flintlock to machine gun
End of fantasy In a setting where fantasy heroes can survive falls at terminal velocity into lava and swim out with 2/3rds HP remaining

Inmate
Inmate

@Sir_Gallonhead
Your PC is the tip of the top, user. The rest of the setting doesn't get his protection from the guns. Who cares about these rare heroes when you can train your peasants to use guns in larger numbers and for cheaper price, who you can then use to deal with all your little fantasy problems? And what of that hero? Why isn't he using a gun? It's better than a sword in every way.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Ignoramus
You do know there were mercenaries before the late middle ages as well as fucking knights and warriors on hand?

Techpill
Techpill

@Need_TLC
Other than guns killing the fantasy setting.

Maybe for you, my notion of fantasy isn't confined to tolkien rip offs and faggot elf songs and secret homo-sex dwarves.

Skullbone
Skullbone

Magic Bullets.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@MPmaster
Ctrl+F 'GURPS'
0 RESULTS

THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE
Jesus

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Inmate

Implying Fantasy doesnt just end up as Eberron in the future

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Techpill
I meant literally killing. As in both eliminating the need for archers, and warriors, and potentially mages, as well as just capping all those fairies and elves squatting on your land.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Gigastrength
You think you can make an army out of knights?

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Flameblow

Because this topic defies systems. One could arguem mechanics because being stabbed by a sword or turned into a pin-cusion of arrows doesn't immediately kill you why would bullets?

The whole thing is the notion of very specific notions on what "fantasy" is and how ideas like guns relate or don't relate to it.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Skullbone
Why is there a goofy flying shit?

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@CouchChiller

Because you apparently have no imagination beyond guns kill everything forever the end? I mean if I couldn't kill the fucking monster with a regular sword how are regular bullets suppose to do any better? Apparently to you guns are these supreme magic devices that can kill gods.

5mileys
5mileys

@Boy_vs_Girl
Because the gun is a massive step up from the sword in every conceivable way, and requires less training too?

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Inmate
And what of that hero? Why isn't he using a gun? It's better than a sword in every way.
The system lets him add his absurd strength to damage with the sword, but doesn't add dexterity or anything to ranged weapons, so he needs the sword to murder other larger-than-life individuals with any reasonable haste.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@5mileys

So give a random peasent a gun and suddenly they are on par with someone who's been training to fight almost their entire life? People who've never picked up a sword can stab you to death to didn't you know? It may not be as elegent as if it were wielded by someone who knows how to use a sword but the same logic applies.

I think you're being daft on purpose.

WebTool
WebTool

@Burnblaze
He could use his superhuman dexterity and perception to aim better, or his superhuman strength to carry around massive guns.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@ZeroReborn
To a point. There are U.S. infantry who carry around tomahawks for braining fools, but you're correct that it's a general purpose tool and not specifically a weapon, it just happens to be good at both.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Spazyfool
Next school shooter detected.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Flameblow
You train a little army of peasants with guns on the cheap and they'll mow through anyone who doesn't have guns, pretty much. The hero types are incredibly rare.

And someone who has never picked up a sword is more liable to hurt his stupid self. It's unsurprisingly hard to fuck up basic point and shoot even without training.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@5mileys
The settings I prefer are the anime as fuck ones where people can dodge bullets and deflect them out of the air and shit so I don't really have this problem.

Also Science Fantasy is my favorite setting so guns are just expected there.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@TurtleCat
Americans doing something impractical because they think it's 'cool'

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Fuzzy_Logic
We're not talking about anime, user.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@StrangeWizard

You can always panick and miss. You might be fumbling the reload while someone bears down on you. You might even be the asshole who peeks down the barrel when it doesn't fire and blow your own brains out.

Apparently you've never handled a gun before.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@BinaryMan
Given that knights were also accompanied by there retinue during battles I'd say yes. Also there are mercs as well to help fill up your army. Plus medieval battles are smaller in comparison to other times in history.

Mind this all came from that other user saying that peasants are expected to go to war as well. Sending your main source of wealth and food to die in battle is both idiotic and suicidal. Unless your desperate enough to do so like having an invading army in your doorstep you just earn the anger off your people and your lord as well.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Harmless_Venom
Which is why you send 'em to your little peasant boot camp. Turns out useful fighters much quicker than training them in a melee weapon would take, and far more deadly at that.

I have handled a gun.That's why I know they're pretty goddamned simple.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

Fine, lets take a look at Warcraft, a game that along with Warhammer Fantasy has come to define generic fantasy. When it started off, it was actually less sophisticated than its spiritual predecessor, with humans wielding swords and crossbows and firearms being novelty hand-cannons invented by the dwarves as a new way to use blasting powder.

Come Second War, guns are practical enough to mount on Ships of the Line and Frigates, as well as create primitive spar torpedoes, but are still not something comparable to a well-enchanted bow.

Next is Warcraft III, and cartridge-based rifles with breech loading are invented, replacing the crossbow in many western armies both human and dwarf, but also along this time mithril and thorium armor is devised in order to make them less than lethal unless they got lucky and struck a vital area or section not covered by the protection, or hit the same area twice causing the armor to degrade, much like how modern body armor works.

Come WoW, and it becomes an arms race between armor and offense, in most cases guns (and enchanted bows) winning out narrowly against infantry, explaining why hunters are generally better in PvP than warriors, but for some things you need an enchanted blade made out of special material that bullets are physically too small to inscribe on, hence demon hunters and the like still being needed because a rune of banishing won't fit.

(Cont.)

JunkTop
JunkTop

@LuckyDusty

How can this be, why are they still developing swords when guns shoot people deader you might ask? Aside from the fact that the Alliance Army fights more than people and needs to resort to melee weapons for esoteric threats, culture is a major driver to this preservation, and the fact that all these transitions have happened in less then a hundred years.

Going back to this user @askme
, it took China almost 1000 years to update their military, so imagine if you had to deal with one innovation happening after the other in a pace that is unprecedented in the real world. You get steamships and aircraft carriers serving alongside sail-powered ships of the line. You get modernish-looking riflemen communicating with sword and shield wielding footmen over the radios they both have equipped, the latter further communicating to a mage in order to tell him to teleport in a garrison to the southern quadrant to reinforce it against the pending cavalry raid that was picked up by the warlock using Eye of Kilrog.

And it's all explained brilliantly in a way that most fantasy kitchen sinks that throw these things together usually fail at. War breeds innovation, and force races that intrinsically have a higher innovation rate than humanity, it is practically inevitable that they'd accelerate the rate of progress, but just because something is invented, doesn't mean that society will readily accept that invention.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@LuckyDusty
@JunkTop
The point you thought you made isn't what you actually ended up saying. You actually made a perfect demonstration of how guns can overtake and destroy a fantasy setting.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@Harmless_Venom
None of this disproves the notion that the barrier to entry to firearms is lower than it is for hand-to-hand weapons.

Guns require less physical coordination, less general physical fitness, and less complicated technique to use effectively. You line up the sights and shoot, or lead your target if they're really far away and moving laterally.

A shootout between a novice and expert is going to be much closer with guns than it will be with swords.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@Sharpcharm
Turns out useful fighters much quicker than training them in a melee weapon would take
Spears in formation doesn't really require a lot of finesse or training either.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Nude_Bikergirl
The problem here is that you're comparing a sword belonging to an individual to a weapon designed by a master artisan.

To make this work, you should compare things of like categories. I.e. compare Excalibur to a gun like Davy Crockett's musket, Patton's pearl handled pistols, etc. or compare the legendary reputation of the ak-47 or maxim gun to the legendary reputation of swords forged by [insert master sword maker].

You're also comparing a weapon which has had time to become legend with a weapon that is comparably young. You're comparing across two very different cultures. If the stories featuring guns had been written at the same time you can bet we would have some legendary-ass guns.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@Lunatick
Spears in formation are hard countered by guns.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Garbage Can Lid
Your own post reveals your problem. Davy Crockett's musket doesn't have a name. It's not considered relevant or special in any way itself.

Also, comparing an AK-47 to a swordsmith is idiotic. You're thinking of comparing a swordsmith to Kalashnikov.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Evil_kitten
It is if you're not a total sperg. I mean it has no place on Veeky Forums but in the outside world it's true.

iluvmen
iluvmen

@SomethingNew
I guess Veeky Forums is in charge of most fantasy settings and writers then.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@iluvmen

If you hadn't notice by the arbiters of what is and is not fantasy.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@New_Cliche
Really? You're arguing WoW, of all things, is a setting where guns destroyed it? Or Warhammer Fantasy, the most well known fantasy setting that includes guns of a level comparable to the real world time period it's mimicking?

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@StrangeWizard
hell if we extend this to all gunpowder weapons, they've been around since about the 11th century AD in some form or another(and while it's true that recognizably modern guns first really start appearing in the late 13th century, handheld cannons of some form or another were around for at least a century or so beforehand)

also most of the anti-gun people in this thread are ridiculous nitpickers

@King_Martha
what I really hate is when people vehemently keep firearms out of their fantasy setting but keep everything else that led to said guns
agreed, not to mention almost all of them being completely uncreative morons who are the epitome of "No Fun Allowed" like @Need_TLC
& @CouchChiller

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@BlogWobbles
You're talking about the inexorable march of guns as they slowly replace other weapon types, and how they're going through several steps our culture went through before guns displaces them entirely.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@MPmaster
Because people on this board have severe autism and believe that everything has to operate in a hyper simulationist method rather than in a pulp fiction context that 90% games run on. You can have a game with machine guns and sword but honestly no one on the board would like it because it's "not realistic" which is the fucking stupidest argument I've ever seen on this board.

farquit
farquit

@Stupidasole
You could have a game with swords and machineguns, but the machineguns would be better.

Inmate
Inmate

@RumChicken

"This derringer has a pride of its own and holds a grudge; When used against an opponent who has bested you, the pistol has enhanced properties, especially when subterfuge is involved. Any one attack against an unaware opponent that has defeated you in any form of contest is automatically a critical hit or a successful called shot. The second shot, and any shot after reloading operates normally until the wielder is again bested."

"This rifle appears to be an old, manually operated design, but carries with it a passion for firepower. When this rifle misses, a second shot can be attempted at no penalty. If this second shot misses, another shot may be fired at normal multi-attack penalty. If at any point the round hits home, no additional shots may be taken that round. This effect is in leiu of any multishot ability (The design of the rifle doesn't lend itself for rapid fire in the first place.)"

"This auto-loading pistol is unremarkable were it not for its predilection to wounding and killing vehicle personnel from their safe position. Fired at any vehicle, the pistol may fire a salvo of rounds that surprisingly hits home. A random target in the compartment selected suffers normal damage to the weapon disregarding any vehicle armor, cover or concealment. Line of sight to the vehicle is necessary, but line of sight to the operator is not required, as the golden BB always deflects just right. This attack expends half of the weapon's magazine. In the rare event of an armored victim, the armor serves normally, but the ill-omened experience still leaves the target briefly shaken."

likme
likme

@farquit
Case in point.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Need_TLC
nor are they conductive to making legendary individuals.

The Existence of persons like Simo hayha and Hatchcock beg to differ

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Poker_Star
The fact that everyone only thinks of the same individual every time is very telling.

TechHater
TechHater

Gyns didnt kill melee centric soldiers. What did it was the humble bayonet. What's a gun? A stick that shots lead. What's a stick with a blade attached? A spear.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@Ignoramus
That's kind of the thing though. Guns haven't and probably never will completely replace melee weapons in a setting like Warcraft. Melee weapons aren't getting left behind, they're actively keeping up with and sometimes out-performing firearms, who are themselves only keeping up with traditional projectile weapons like bows and arrows.

The only area firearms are winning out in is in artillery and mechanized cavalry, but you're still in a setting where a dude with an ax can open your tank up like a tuna can.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Evil_kitten
Most named swords are named after their owners or are a description of form/function. Hell, outside of fantasy literature named swords are fairly rare.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Spazyfool
Someone's not a mythology buff.

massdebater
massdebater

Have you seen any early gun? These things are so heavy that you need something like a tripod.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Emberburn
So they don't count because they're legendary individuals?

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@lostmypassword
They're just very small in number.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

The year of lord 2017
He hasn't inserted guns into his dark fantasy games, useful to scare of beasts and dumb monsters do to the bright flash but being unable to reload within a combat encounter
He hasn't run a modern fantasy game with guns being the primary weapons of everyone along with weird technology, magic, or science
He hasn't created a science fiction setting with the not!Force that can deflect and make melee weapons on equal footing with blasters
He hasn't made an over the top high fantasy setting where guns and swords are literally balanced, purely by the weeabo fighting and gun magic of their owners
He hasn't run a wild magical western game with gunslingers being the primary weapons
He hasn't run a classical/iron age setting where guns don't exist
He hasn't created a anachronistic setting where people can use cars and airplanes and modern electric appliances but the laws of physics in the universe prevent the creation of gunpower, meaning everyone still fights with swords and/or ninja magic moves
Not being able to enjoy, envision, and play in every single one
2000 and fucking 17

I came here to laugh at you. All of you.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@farquit
Not if you have protection spell, or even supet reactive lamelar /ferro-fyber/nanodeflective/force field/arcane induced armor that can deflect a piercing hit but not slash, or metaagility/super reflexes shenanigan your hero always had.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Flameblow
Scifi, not fantasy.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@farquit
Depends on how you run it. Maybe in this story guns are kind of crap, and mysteriously fail to hit anyone important, or deal about as much damage with a burst of automatic fire as does a compound bow with a single arrow.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@StonedTime
Scifi, not fantasy.
You act like there's a difference.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Garbage Can Lid
What is mythology but fantasy literature with a pedigree?

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Carnalpleasure
Legendary people usually are.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Supergrass

Fantasy is Romantic in nature.
Scifi tends towars Age of Reason and progress.

takes2long
takes2long

@CodeBuns
That's contrived and ruins the suspension of disbelief.

Inmate
Inmate

@MPmaster
Because retards spend to much time on fps and believe reality and all other fictions with guns must follow those fps logic.
They don't want to believe they wasted all those decades for nothing.
Pathfinder/3.5 fuckers are all like that

likme
likme

@farquit
Someone has never read any pulp fiction.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@StonedTime
Science fiction
Not just a futuristic fantasy
Ignoring the existence of magic in my sentence

Well off course mr.strawman

Emberfire
Emberfire

@cum2soon
Scifi tends towars Age of Reason and progress.
Not no more it don't.

@takes2long
If you can believe in the Star Wars universe you can believe in anything.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@Booteefool
Are you implying that they dared to come out of their baseme, i mean nuclear bunker and actually interact with real people in the first place?
Quite a bold claim there...

WebTool
WebTool

@PackManBrainlure
There's no reason your spells would work better on guns than melee.

@likme
Pulp scifi.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@cum2soon
Nothing prevent a Scifi to be Romantics m8, see LotGH and F91, its only a difference in time and technobabbles

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@WebTool
Pulp pretty much runs the same no matter what setting really.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@WebTool
There's reason when the world setting demands it /k/uk.

If you don't like it you can go back to your guns fantasy.

massdebater
massdebater

@BlogWobbles

The Republic are the Romantic ones.
The Empire is Enlightement, ruled by an Enlightened Despot.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Fried_Sushi
I dislike guns in fantasy, user. What you're pushing for just doesn't make sense.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@PackManBrainlure
Nah mate thats pretty standard psychological acceptance

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Raving_Cute
The real culprit was the burning of the Library of Alexandria, and for that you can blame the fucking Romans.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

Ok heres the disconnect we have here

1] We talking about mechanics in games where players are routinely hit by lightning Meteor strikes mauled by Dire Llamas and can survive Orbital drops into pools of lava. The mechanics

2] If we are talking realism everythings even more fucked because realism doesnt mechanise well. IRL people survive multiple gunshot wounds or knives breaking off in their skull and other times a guy gets punched by a regular shmuck and dies

Because of all this shit guns in a fantasy setting wouldnt be that separated from other weapons mechanically. Hell considering the apparently millions of years beforehand medieval stasis existed in most settings its probably gonna be another hundred thousand years before the Wheelock so dont sweat it

Supergrass
Supergrass

@Emberfire
"Age of Reason and progress" is a thematic recurrence within scifi, but has never been it's mainstay outside the period when the Futurians controlled significant portions of scifu publishing.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@BunnyJinx

^The mechanics dont allow PCs to die easily from single shots of anything and indeed all the high level shit still doesnt die to guns any faster than it does giving peasants crossbows or even fucking rocks

Dunno how that got erased mid-post

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Playboyize
Not OP but I don't mind the idea of guns being in fantasy, I actually like the idea, but people acting butthurt because a character can use a sword and keep up with the characters using AK-47s is pretty fucking stupid and something I have zero patience for.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

At least 65% of the people have no idea how period guns worked

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Stark_Naked
@BunnyJinx

That's the thing that always confuses me. You can be completely fine with a wizard dropping a moon on you and having a thousand archers rain down ballista sized arrows and get punted in the face by a frost giant but the idea of getting shot with a gun somehow changes all of this.

askme
askme

what is it with you faggots and legendary fucking everything

muh sword
it's killed kings and paupers and blah blah
literally nobody gives a shit
it's three feet of steel that has value so long as it can continue to function in the manner in which is was made for

SniperWish
SniperWish

@BunnyJinx
@Stark_Naked
The real problem here is that people falsely interpret "hit points" as "meat points". You can have it to where the damage that a character receives is a grazing wound or a shot in a non vital area.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@WebTool
What about spells that specifically deflect arrows and do nothing or less for sword swings?

@SniperWish
Not having both plot armor points and meat points

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@w8t4u
Because people can't except that the gun they spent 1000's on doesn't have to be the end all be all weapon in fiction.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@askme
There is no excaliber of rifles, dnd is based upon misinterpreted mythology, and with guns there is very little to be misinterpreted because mythological characters concerning the guns are very rare, and their stories are far more grounded in reality.

girlDog
girlDog

@New_Cliche
Not having both plot armor points and meat points
Got a game example of this?

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Skullbone
anime

take a 9mm aspirin

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Nude_Bikergirl

I spent more money on this weapon, what do you mean I can't bypass their immunities!?

cum2soon
cum2soon

All these posts and no Timur's Lash
Ball so hard they had to nerf the archetype and weapon rolls. Everybody loves Field Scout, Outlaw and Crow Control.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@w8t4u
Something something, "people think guns are death rays," is the usual reason given, because apparently people can't conceptualize stabbings or burn wounds.

Granted, on multiple occasions I've had to tell people that .22lr is a terrible caliber for self-defense even if it can easily kill a person.

likme
likme

@Lord_Tryzalot
Excluding Enter the Gungeon. Such a good game.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@SomethingNew
GM: I'm sorry that you're enemy isn't stupid enough to stand in front of your gun.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@cum2soon

As much as I love the guns in Destiny is it too much to ask to have the barrel line up where the hammer is?

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@Evil_kitten
If they aren't autistic as fuck it is.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Snarelure
*your
Dammit.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Snarelure
What? Orcs arn't suppose to use tactics or fight intelligently! This game sucks.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@SomethingNew
@Snarelure
So basically this the entire "casters vs. martials" argument from the opposite direction?

Illusionz
Illusionz

@SniperGod
I agree, but all of their guns are pants on head retarded like that, unless it's something like the Thorn or the older scout rifles. I mean just look at pic related.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

https://youtu.be/1nAfWfF4TjM

Cursed guns
Also see: Winchester mystery house

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@Inmate
This is good stuff dude, what else you got?

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@girlDog
no but I wanna do it, the problem is that I can't think of a way that isn't "Critical hits basically cripple you no matter how cool of a guy you are" type stuff which is just nofun.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Illusionz

Some of them are literally just "Space magic" which is exactly what the Mythoclast and Bad juju are but still...

5mileys
5mileys

@SniperGod
There are real-life examples of revolvers doing this, though I think they're mostly used for target shooting.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Fuzzy_Logic
Urist Alehammer, Krognar, Stablord of the North, and Lyllyn Earthwindfire get cut down when frontally assaulting an Orcish three-rank gunline

massdebater
massdebater

@Playboyize
It doesn't make sense because its fantasy user, where the world works differently with us.

Using a sense of RL in a fantasy is a foolhanded action.

idontknow
idontknow

@SniperWish

Survive a fall from orbit into lava
No meat points

I know I know they always tried to say it wasent meat since 1st ed but it never holds up to scrutiny

@w8t4u
@Bidwell

Yeah conceptualization tends to make all the difference here. Its the same thing that makes writers in Spiderman comics have him get punched through a building by the Hulk and shrug it off yet a .22 is treated as being able to kill him. The same shit that makes an anime character like Ussop dodge anything pointed on fear of death but still survive a high speed collision with a 3 ton hammer in the face

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Soft_member
Yeah but those two are explicitly space magic, like most of the rest of the exotics bar the Last Word. Plus the guns are all supposed to be shooting what's functionally smart matter that you just load into the gun's magazine, explaining how Omolon's bizarre liquid bullets work.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@Dreamworx
comments are disabled on this video

Because of course they are. Fucking cowards.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@idontknow
Survive a fall from orbit into lava
What sort of retarded game is your group running?

RavySnake
RavySnake

@5mileys
Modern revolvers don't require the hammer to line up with the barrel due to the use of transfer bars.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@happy_sad
Wahhhh waaah weaboo
In an anime board

Get out of Veeky Forums entirely

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@RavySnake

I was genuinely not aware of this. will look up now.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Fuzzy_Logic
I disagree, RoI did little to advance the overall plot of Destiny and the Iron Lords came across as a bunch of retards. And the new Iron Banner girls is obnoxious as shit.

That said, SIVA, a closer look at the Fallen/an actual Fallen raid, and more Rasputin shenanigans are always nice

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@Spamalot
No wore fucking leather armor ever.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Fuzzy_Logic
I should be sniping these goblins like deer! WHAT THE HELL!?
Not at level one you aren't
*Autistic screaming*

@whereismyname
Honestly the casters vs. martial argument is pretty stupid and pretty easily solved if you have your characters actually move.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@PurpleCharger
I'm really hoping that Destiny 2 launches with an actual coherent story, and that Bungie doesn't just offload the lore into the Grimoire, or at least gives you a way to read the character profiles. Like a bunch of wanted posters for the monsters in the Prison of Elders or something.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Ignoramus
Quilted textile armors were pretty popular for soldiers on a budget, weren't they?

likme
likme

@Dreamworx
With that in mind, many hand-pistols crafted in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries did have fancy craftsmanship
Shit, third/second world warlords of the modern age love to embroider their guns all sorts of tacky golden engravings

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Stark_Naked

Wait I stepped in caltrops? How do a bunch of mooks have something like that?
Because anything you can do they can as well
*rips up character sheet*

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@MPmaster
muh knight killing ultra weapon that ended chivalry and the romance era

WebTool
WebTool

@AwesomeTucker
Pinfire and some cap and ball revolvers also have hammers that don't completely align with the barrels due to striking radially positioned firing pins and percussion caps, respectively.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Need_TLC
Critical hits crippling a PC in a fight sounds A-OK to me. Maybe only allow crippling if your plot armor is depleted as well.
Cover could play a role as well. If an enemy scores a critical hit against a PC in cover, maybe it flushes them out, thus allowing for other enemy shots to cripple/deplete plot armor.
Apply the same system to the enemy and you've got a system where you can trade bullets for a bit, while becoming increasingly more lethal as everyone "zeroes in" on their targets.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@PackManBrainlure
You have to admit, economics is a pretty unbeatable weapon if you use it right.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Deadlyinx
You walk into a room, the stairs are blocked by heavy objects and the goblins are on the rafters raining javelins on you.
How are we supposed to fight that they should fight us one on one!
Yeah but they would lose if they did that and why would they want to lose?
*Stomps out the room*

Illusionz
Illusionz

@girlDog
That's basically what D&D HP are.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@DeathDog
It really wasn't till the start of the 20th century till most people used guns regularly because largely they were too expensive. Hell most people committed crimes and fought with stuff like knives and truncheons.

askme
askme

It easy. Don't fetishize it to the extent some of these anons have, and be rigid in it's implementation.

Guns are supposed to be the great equalizer and are super powerful? I don't give a fuck, they do 1d10/2d8 damage, require reloading, and have special ammunition. That's it, deal with it.

You want guns? You get flintlocks, because they fit the fantasy genre better. I don't care if you want an assault rifle. Too bad.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Bidwell
Quilted textiles aren't leather.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Illusionz
Kind of but the problem with that is that you don't die when you reach 0 hit points. Plot armor doesn't mean you don't take any damage you just don't take any life threatening injuries.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Playboyize
Well higher HP lets you survive things that would normally kill you, so it's like a limited set of plot armor.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@SniperWish
It's that sort of Conan-esque progression where you face of against bandits but then you are able to take on gods and shit.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Fried_Sushi

Sadly nothing; That's OC. I got bored and decided to write about artifact firearms.

The simplest trick is to completely ignore crunch until the last possible moment. Finish thinking about the history and event that made an artifact, then decide right at the last moment what it would do.

I didn't post it because this thread was for firearms, but I also was thinking about the shortsword that killed Asanuma in Japan; Was going to suggest a sword that projects the death of its victims psychically in a wide radius (linked to the televised nature of his assassination): Useless for an assassin, priceless to a martyr, tyrant or general.

farquit
farquit

@askme
You get flintlocks, because they fit the fantasy genre better.

True flintlocks were invented in 1610, predecessors to it only date back to the mid-1500s. Matchlocks, wheellocks, and manual ignition is what you're looking for.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Nude_Bikergirl
You guys play with some shitty people.

Inmate
Inmate

@farquit
Same aesthetic, different name and no mechanical difference.

Methshot
Methshot

@cum2soon
Used to play with, I have a better, funner group I play with that can except the master swordsman and the crackshot sniper in the same game.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@LuckyDusty
I figured about something of attacks having a penetrating value vs the plot armor pool, where it still works but is less effective in protecting your meat pool

The penetrating value would add calculations and possibly rolls to combat and slow it the fuck down, which is bad. But it gives a clear place for stuff like armor, which is good. So I'm conflicted.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@cum2soon
a lot of Destiny's issues stem from having to do last gen versions alongside the PS4/XBONE versions

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Inmate

Except Matchlocks spoil stealth and can be disabled by ruining the smouldering match

And wheellocks are excellent for a fantasy setting because they're highly complex and impossible to mass produce. Also they sure are the closest thing we ever came to clockwork or steampunk weapons (Mechanisms were a true headache).

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Spazyfool
I just kind of use Warhammer Fantasy as a base.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@StonedTime

That and a lot of content was cut intially. I'm hoping for some big shit for Destiny 2

massdebater
massdebater

@Spazyfool
That's nice.

All I and my players care about that it looks like a gun and shoots.

Pull trigger, shoot, reload. If the gun looks cool, or is even enchanted? All the better.

I'm not gun literate, and I don't care to be. I like the fantasy of guns rather than the reality.

Techpill
Techpill

@kizzmybutt
Yeah, being a separate person from that one guy I am aware of that. But there were cheapo light armors available, is the point, I think.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@MPmaster
If in a setting you can dodge/block/mitigate a bullet the same as a sword strike, then guns are no better than melee weapons.

Case in point: Shadowrun.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Gigastrength
I'm on the OPs side but that's just factually untrue.

Even if you can block/dodge bullets guns still have far better range and rate of attack than a sword.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@TurtleCat
No there aren't. We've got fully automatic weapons and hand grenades and artillery strikes and shit user. We don't fucking sword fight anymore.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Snarelure
People expect something to die when it is shot period
I also expect something to die when it is chopped with an axe or gutted with a sword.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@StrangeWizard
Which is also true in Shadowrun. So watch out for that guy with a sword. Yeah, you give a sword and a pistol to some random wageslave off the streets he'll probably do more damage with the pistol then the sword.

But you see somebody running up on you with a sword drawn? Chances are he's got lots of skill, and lots of MAGIC backing up the four handfuls of dice he's about to throw on that attack roll.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@PackManBrainlure
I think your logic stems from the fact that you aren't into guns as a hobby.
People who are interested in guns do rave and rant and collect, and have wildly differing ideas about different makes and good/bad things about them.
The gun that killed Kennedy was Carcano M1891/38, and there's a whole bunch of youtube videos of people shooting them.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@MPmaster
because most fantasy setting "developers"/designers/authors/whatever think guns were invented in the 18th century and used only then, and that they were some weapon that conferred god like powers to whoever used them, not realizing the actual reason they were made the standard issue weapons for all major armies(ease of use)

Unforunately, most tgers and fantasy authors know very little history beyond OMFG MEDIVAL KNIGHTS XD GAME OF THRONES WARCRAFT VIKINGS BADASS SKYRIM LOL ARROW IN THE KNEE LOL PEWDIEPIE!

SniperWish
SniperWish

@StrangeWizard
Actually, yeah, i worded that wrong. Should be

if in a setting you can negate advantages of any weapon with enough skill, as well as go around the disadvantages of your weapon.

And Shadowrun does it well.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@Stark_Naked
The British army used a bayonet charge in Iraq.
Worked pretty well too, six of them managed to kill 30 odd Iraqis, with only one of their own being injured.
It was a pretty desperate edge-case though

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@LuckyDusty
@Bidwell
@Snarelure
People today "know" that 9.5 times out of 10 if you shoot somebody they are either dead or dying
Because the modern audience has the perception that guns are basically death rays
Something something, "people think guns are death rays," is the usual reason given
this is such a fucking weird opinion to me, to be honest
it's like we've forgotten that a huge chunk of our media has more or less relied on survivable guns for nearly two decades now, because anything other would not only make gameplay really boring and stale but also make it that much harder to have variety.
seriously videogames have been pulling this shit for years and they certainly didn't regress to just using melee weapons all the time so it's not that foreign of a concept to people to have characters survive bullets.

not to mention all that d&d shit where you had legit rayguns and aliens and other ridiculous scifi shit mixed in.
feels like a recent thing that games have become super simulationist and 'realistic' and so can't actually handle mixing different weapons in any reasonable way.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@ZeroReborn
It looks like the pulse rifle from the Alien universe got mashed into an AK.
Holy balls it is ugly.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Soft_member
Ummm...

The Avtomat Kalashnikova 1947 is named after the year it was designed, it's not a Mk. 47.

The 74 is the same, it's just a coincidence the numbers are reversed.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@CouchChiller
But guns did not kill melee combat in real life.
And guns did not end archery.

Or rather, not for the first 400 years.
Archery on battlefields in medieval europe largely stopped happening around the 15th century, because of deforestation, and rising prices of quality wood.
Not because guns were better. Guns were shit at the time.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@massdebater
Surely the difference is very important for solid worldbuilding? To explain why they're not common or why they are used in the ways that they are.

iluvmen
iluvmen

@RavySnake
Nope. What's important in worldbuilding is the immediate area around the players, places and things for players to do, and where the players come from.

Beyond that you can make shit up as you go along and everything fits together.

Guns might not be common because the bluebloods keep it for themselves and arm their guard with them. Want a gun? Go get one from them. Rather a tool of equality, they're a weapon of oppression. Or maybe they're not being used right now because the goblin hordes guard the smokepowder mines. What use is a gun without any ammunition.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@likme
Those are some conveniently placed scimitars.

5mileys
5mileys

@PurpleCharger

Efrideet is cute.

From what I played I found SIVA and the House of Devils kind of boring outside of the latter deciding that instead of worshiping machines as gods they will become gods.

@cum2soon

In a way I'm not sure Destiny 2 needs a single coherent story, I think how they've managed to tell five separate stories between the main games and the four expansions is sort of nice.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@RumChicken
That's because hitting somebody with (an often not even sharpened) length of steel going 25 miles an hour is more effective then shooting a single shot musket ball into a crowd. Also lets you hit a lot more people.

Honestly I think you guys underestimate just how quickly some people embraced and used guns in mass. Even the shitty ones. During the time of the 'Samurai'? They where already using guns as one of their main weapons. Those big bazooka looking shoulder mounted mother fuckers.

Techpill
Techpill

@cum2soon
The PPK
Killing Communists and Mad Scientists
Walther/A guy named Q
It also holds 7 rounds of 9mm rounds and makes a pew pew sound because it's so elegant and quiet in the hands of a true gentleman spy.

Sorry user, he's got you beat on this one. James Bond is the only reason that piece of shit pea shooter is not a foot note in some fucking huge 2,000 page collector's guide to firearms. It is legendary, even if it doesn't have a name and no wizard forged it. Which Q could be considered a modern wizard.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@MPmaster
they are not in games made with them in mind, like iron kingdoms.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Evil_kitten
yeah Destiny 2 should be a much smoother experience overall(hopefully with 3 since that will probably come out for PS5 and whatever they call the next Xbox they'll have learned their lesson and not do a last gen version as well)

@5mileys
In a way I'm not sure Destiny 2 needs a single coherent story, I think how they've managed to tell five separate stories between the main games and the four expansions is sort of nice.
true, but hopefully they'll handle the main game story better, as while it's decent enough in the very beginning, it falls apart for a large chunk of the game after you go to Venus(no time to explain why I have no time to explain, nuff said)

Nojokur
Nojokur

@haveahappyday
People have a set idea of what fantasy is and anything that isn't their idea of fantasy starts to gnaw at their suspension of disbelief
For 90% of people guns don't just gnaw at disbelief they tear a giant fucking chunk out of it
And that's a damn shame

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Evil_kitten
but how do bullet to barrel?

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@SniperGod
slow it the fuck down, which is bad.
I don't see anything wrong with this, not every gunfight needs to be some crazy John Wick stunts. Sometimes taking quick shots from dozens of meters away while scuttling under cover adds to the tension. You can't always see where the bullets are coming from.
Though if the idea is to blend guns into traditional fantasy, I can see how keeping the pace up is important.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@Nojokur
laser sword and rayguns
This is pretty dope.

Firespawn
Firespawn

If people are seriously bitching about guns being 'too good' for a fantasy setting, talk about mowing the protagonist down, then they haven't seen an 80's action movie.

Go see Dredd, Rambo, Die Hard, James Bond and any other number of action flicks. How are these not effectively modern fantasy? The characters can effectively run through hails of bullets, returning fire and kill a dozen mooks before even being winged by a stray round.

If you can run from one end of a room to another, avoiding a hail of machine gun fire, then you can close to melee distance and use a goddamn knife or sword.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Raving_Cute
Preserving information was great, yeah yeah yeah. But if you're not SHARING that information with the population, no one except the people in the future benefit.

The church didn't allow technology to regress. But they CERTAINLY didn't allow technology to progress.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@BinaryMan
It's actually a fusion rifle. It fires bursts of plasma rather than ballistic projectiles. What looks like a magazine is actually a battery pack, like that of a powerdrill.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Soft_member
quad-barrel shotgun
with a pump action
and a 5 round magazine

BUNGIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!

RavySnake
RavySnake

@lostmypassword
So... you're just reasoning all of this out on your own, aren't you? This doesn't sound based in any sort of study or facts or anything, you know, real.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Evil_kitten
The naming of weapons has gone out of vogue in the last few centuries. That's a cultural thing, and has literally zero to do with the legendary feats achieved with the weapon.

Also, i said to compare the ak to SWORDS FORGED BY a master swordsmith. If you're going to correct me, read the comment.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@SniperGod
Two words: Zhalo Supercell.

The ejection port is over the weird green can thingy. The actual mag loads intro the handle bullpup style but there is no fucking way those bullets are getting fed up to that chamber.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@PackManBrainlure
You say that like all good fantasy isn't about the dying of an age.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@VisualMaster
But if you're not SHARING that information with the population
why would you share that information in a time and period when most of the population were iliterate farmers who had no need for it

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