/mtg/ modern general

Pod wasn't even that bad, neither was twin. Now they're killing infect. They just kill decks to shake up the meta, not for actual good reasons and it's real frustrating in a format that isn't supposed to rotate. This comes from a guy who had his kiki pod, twin, and suicide zoo deck banned. I want it to stop. Eye of Ugin was the last reasonable ban. Even Grave troll was debatable. Wizards pls stop.
>tfw you still have your twin and pod decks put together

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Reminder that all phyrexian mana cards should be banned and that the entire mechanic was a mistake.

Do you guys think burn is going to see a card banned at some point?

I'd say only cards that can be free with phyrexian mana were a mistake. Things like Blessing of Dismember are alright.

Pod is not a healthy card for the format as it just gets better with powercreep. The twin ban, however, marked the point where modern turned to absolute garbage.

I'm getting to the point where I'm just going to make my own ban list and try and get people to play with it.

>unban
>GGT
>probe
>twin
>maybe pod

Remember folks, running removal and creatures that cost more than 4 mana means that your deck is control.

>boohoo they took my probe away
>suicide zoo banned

What a spicy meme, senpai

So dredge is control?

Suicide zoo is literally unplayable without probe you faggot, go ahead and try playing it. It makes a huge impact on zoo over infect or fiend

If I use destructive revelry on my mountain enchanted by an opponents spreading seas, who takes the 2 damage?

>any deck that takes up the control side of the beatdown/control dichotomy
But a deck's role changes between matchups and even over the course of a game. That's why we use the definition based around deck structure and metagame role. Otherwise every deck would be both control and aggro except a couple very extreme examples.

Just 4-0'd modern night with this pile. The more that I play with it, the more I realize that Blood Moon is a really bad card for modern. I played against grixis in round 3 and 4 Blood Moon just hoses them so hard. They don't even run that greedy of a mana base, no double black or double red spells in the main deck. I don't know what the best card to punish greedy manabases is, but this sure isn't it.

>Control is any deck that takes up the control side of the beatdown/control dichotomy
so when I'm playing scapeshift and using land ramp spells to get valakut triggers and bolt the shit out of my opponent's board so they can't attack me, I'm actually playing a control deck? Neat.

A deck that can play an aggro role against a slower deck is called a midrange deck, because it's in the middle of aggro and control. Jund is a midrange deck because it beats down against slower decks like UWR or grixis. I agree with the other decks that you listed except ad nauseam. Ad nauseam plays almost no disruption and is just trying to jam its combo to win. It also can't win without its combo, which makes it a combo deck. Some decks can be combo control decks, which want to drag the game out and grind out the opponent, but have a combo finish to win once the opponent is out of answers. Splinter Twin was an example of this. The stupid thopter sword decks that people try to make in modern do this as well.

What we need is more land destruction, or cards that punish these greedy manabases. Hose all this Jund, Junk, Grixis, Naya garbage. If you wanna play good stuff, you gotta pay a bigger price.

MAKE BURN GREAT AGAIN

PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE PAY THE PRICE

what did rich do to deserve this?

I run grave titan in my ad nauseam list, is that a control deck?

There is no greater pleasure than watching the format BURN.

Yes

Tron is one of the most difficult decks to categorize imo, assuming ramp is not an acceptable category itself. It combines elements of aggro, combo, and control decks into one, because it has so much mana that it can get away with it. That's why I've always felt that tron is a midrange deck. It controls aggressive strategies and tries to accelerate out an unanswerable threat against control.

>ad nauseam is a control deck
wat

I agree, it doesn't even have to be land destruction, just make cards to hose nonbasic lands

What aggro elements do you think? It doesn't start doing anything until Turn 3.
What combo is there other than "I can count to 7 now"?

Man, if only price of progress would be printed into the modern card pool.

I play Burn and would cut out white entirely. Hell, the only white cards most decks run are Boros Charm and PtE. Switch to two forests to play around mirror matches. Man, this shit would be great.

You put together three specific cards to win the game, and the whole deck tutors for those cards.

Combo means that when the combination of cards is assembled you win
Tron needs to get its lands out in order to win, but isn't guaranteed victory just because you have all the urza lands

Turn 3 Karn is not aggro, it's a stabilization mechanism comparable to counterbalance+top. Wurmcoil isn't in the deck to swing at your opponent four times, its function is prevent most decks profitable attacks until he is removed, compare to Moat in Miracles.
Tron loses with the minepowertower in play all the time unlike every other actual combo decks that manages to put the pieces together, the lands together are closer to Nacatl+RW shock (advantage synergy) in play than Angel's Grace+Ad Nauseam (game-winning synergy), the mana engine is a prerequisite to enact the deck's game plan of tap-out control, not a means in itself, even though it's possible to just successfully hardcast your payoffs in slower matchups.

Turn 3 karn does everything short of reducing your opponent's life to 0 in terms of winning the game. A karn allowed to jerk itself off in the corner is going to be the vehicle that gets you to whatever thing 20-0s your opponent.

My point about elements is this. Tron can create momentum earlier than a control deck, it can use board wipes to control what is faster than it, and to do these things it assembles a combo. No one of these labels accurately illustrates tron's gameplan.

>They just kill decks to shake up the meta
I'm actually a fan of this.

reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/53fwry/modern_scg_on_the_current_state_of_modern/d7sy2ki/?st=ixutti4c&sh=0a60933c

Nothing Karn does beyond hypothetically exiling 54 cards and decking your opponent with a restart satisfies the conditions of rule 104.2.

I said Karn didn't win you the game, it just everything short of actually ending it to get you to a game win state. It's a controlling card, but Tron uses it aggressively, dropping it early to lock the game down while they durdle to a win.

Also
>leddit
W E W L A D

nothing Ad Nauseum and Angel's Grace does satisfies the conditions of rule 104.2 either, but that's the combo of the deck, not lightning storm + lands

>It's a controlling card, but Tron uses it aggressively
What the fuck does this even mean? Would Karn somehow turn defensive if it was tacked on to a counterspellt that required your opponent to make the first move?
>lele attack the source not the message
Well technically the deck can win via natural spoils+Maniac as well, but you most likely get the point. Tronlands are a means of playing the game the way the deck wants to play it, not the finisher.

I'm saying that the way the card is utilized is different than the way you're positing. Take a card like snapcaster, is it aggressive or controlling? The realistic answer is that it depends on the situation. Turn 3 Karn is an aggressive play, it says "answer me or lose", just like bolt snap bolt at an opponent low on health is an aggressive play. Turn 7 Karn is a defensive play, it wants to stabilize, just as snap counterspell is a defensive play.

Against a lot of decks in this format, a turn 3 Karn is very much trying to stabilize

>a turn two counterbalance with top in play is an aggressive play, it says "answer me or lose"

That may be the case, but that's also kind of my point, the context is what's important. That's why I see tron as midrange, it can be aggressive or it can be controlling.

what everybody's opinion on merfolk?

Tron never takes the beatdown role in any of its matchups.

Not him but if you choose you can just build up lands to cast your more expensive cards against counterbalance plus top, whereas karn is doing stuff every turn.

Use the words proactive and reactive instead of aggressive, they make far more sense here

You're probably right, those do make more sense than what I was saying.

Only because modern is so warped there's nothing in the top tiers that's really slower than tron.

I wouldn't call them fish yet they're not quite human either.

I don't see how this is relevant, even hypothetically the only deck that could go longer than Tron would have to be something like 20 lands 39 1cmc exile all spells and abilities on the stack and your opponent discards their hand and one uncounterable n-cmc target player loses the game sorcery. You could make an argument for Levy's Loam Pox being even slower in a vacuum, but that deck has to take the beatdown vs Tron because the latter has a better lategame every time.

Fun, and semi-competitive, but if the meta is full of decks you can't disrupt while you beat then they are just a slower affinity in a sense.

There is literally no reason to brew for Modern.

It sucks.

...

Tron is not a particularly slow deck, it plays the biggest cards, sure, but does it for relatively cheap. Tron goes "over the top" of decks to win, it shits out big threat after big threat and does so with relative speed thanks to the lands. Tron vs something like a draw go control deck would win by playing more threats than the control deck could answer, not by controlling them. However, situations like that do not exist in modern because draw go and harder control decks do not exist in modern.

It has to be proactive to beat spell combo decks like Ad Naus because it has almost no way to interact with them.

>average list has like 15 cards mb that directly either hit the combo pieces that have to stick to the board or lands with Nature's Claims among others being common boardable sideboard cards
>doesn't play blue permission so clearly there's no interaction
Sure you can't let the game get to the point where they have pieces a+b in hand and 6 lands to cast them but that doesn't make Ad Nauseam the controlling party of the exchange.

I never said it was targeted to kill Suicide Zoo, but that's the effect. No more free cycle that gives you information and helps you. No more keeping 1 land hands on the draw, no more free prowess on a Swiftspear. The card hurt infect enough to the point where my friend doesn't think it can remain tier 1, and it proved last night when he went 1-3 when a card he had in for probe didn't allow him to either cycle to a card he needed, hit a land drop, or confirm he could go in for the kill. If it does that much to infect which doesn't utilize half of the card as much as suicide zoo does, and you think just running another pump spell is going to make the deck, well you're a retard.

Just ordered the rest of the pieces for my Fish deck actually, since my Storm deck just kinda lost it's greatest cantrip. I like the aggro approach it brings mixed with the disruption of Cursecatcher and Spreading Seas

I said nothing about a pump spell. There's many different spells that could slot into probe's spot, none that will fill all of its roles, of course, but if there was then the ban wouldn't have done anything at all.

Merfolk is currently (HEH) my favorite deck in modern, you've made a fun choice.

>gitaxian probe

I'm getting the same vibes with regards to infect as when people said banning cloud of faeries would kill mono u delver in pauper classic.

Sure - probe vas great in infect, letting you know exactly how much removal you have to deal with, which was sweet, but there are ways to play without it.

Along with playing a 56 card deck and helping cast BI

Was the ban supposed to hurt suicide zoo? Was suicide zoo oppressive and too much of the meta? Nah it wasnt, kill yourself fuckboi

>Was the ban supposed to hurt suicide zoo?
arguably yes, it fit the use of git probe wizards cited perfectly
>Gitaxian Probe increased the number of third-turn kills in a few ways, but particularly by giving perfect information (and a card) to decks that often have to make strategic decisions about going "all-in." This hurt the ability of reactive decks to effectively bluff or for the aggressive deck to miss-sequence their turn. Ultimately, the card did too much for too little cost.

Of course they ban to shake the meta.

Stale LGS events lead to stale playgroups that stop bothering going to the store, and that means a store can lose so many customers they can reach the brink of closing

What's so bad about spicing thing ups? Usually, bans mean changes in lists, and which cards to switch is what differences the good players from the bad players

Does this fit in a midrange shell?

no

>less than 3% of the meta
>implYing probe was played on the turn you went off even 20% of the time
>implying it doesn't just gimp infect and kill suicide zoo which has a much stricter list
>implying it's unfair to have perfect information, and the contents of their hand aren't irrelevant more than half the time whereas either they had it and you had to build up and spread your damage, or they didn't have it and you were playing around it anyways, and once in a while you had a clear shot and could get the win you might not have regularly

>they had it and you had to build up and spread your damage
but without information you now have to always do that, slowing down the deck. Which was the exact point of the ban

I don't like the bans but, I can accept them

Blue was lacking in modern severely, Twin was essentially the only decent blue deck at the time and it was pushing other blue decks out, I constantly found myself wondering why the fuck I was even playing Grixis Control when I could just play Grixis Twin

Git Probe was a mistake, like all phyrexian mana spells, they gotta go. They inherently only allow for degenerate shit to happen. Colorless Eldrazi having removal, a 4 colored deck not in blue being able to cantrip and play around blessed alliance for free, ascension decks getting that storm count higher, 56 card decks, etc etc

Pod was simply only going to get better with each good creature being introduced into the format. Thinking of where Pia and Kiran Nalaar belonged in Pod makes me wanna gag

If anything, there's shit on the banlist that really does not deserve to be there anymore

Green Sun's Zenith is legitimately not that broken anymore in comparison to everything else. Turn 1 Dryad Arbor is considered way too good in comparison to SSG, Temple and Opal?
Alongside that, toolbox decks are barely even a thing in the format anymore, there is sufficient hate for the Toolbox Archetype in every color (ie grafdigger's cage) Chord/Evolution/CoCo just don't cut it anymore and these decks need help

Dig Through Time doesn't deserved to be banned

Jace doesn't deserve to be banned, give Control some actual fucking ways of staying alive please

/rant

>these decks need help
nah, there's no guarantee that any specific deck should be good in a format.
GSZ was banned because it shifted all green decks towards toolbox decks, since it was too good not to run it and if you were running it you might as well run a package of creatures to search up.

Give us Dark Depths, I want to have fun in this format again

>being this ass-devestated that another turn 3 kill is out of modern

How can faggots like you play these turn 3 kill decks and not see the ban coming? Wizards has said on many occassions that turn 4 is the sweer spot for kills in modern, any faster risks the ban.

If you didn't cash out of modern when pod was banned you literally deserve everything that happens. It was an obvious sign of things to come.

Pod encroached on design space so much, it wasn't an obvious ban but it wasn't nonsensical

Because infect has been killing turn 2-3 since the start of modern? And banning literally any other card except probe would have been not as completely devastating to suicide zoo?

It was 25% of the meta.

Just use Gut Shot. Might even be better for Suicide Zoo.

All I want is stoneforge mystic.

No, it's really not

But they wanted to hit suicide zoo too?

Why would they want to hit suicide zoo? Not even 3% of the meta and was literally a free win for burn so it would always be kept in check

Because they don't like decks that win turn 3

Breaks the turn 4 rule too often, let Burn do its thing land Shadow -> Temur for the win, sideboard Phyrexian Unlife in and you can't lose.

>infect and affinity literally winning turn 3 since forever
No, you can't "let burn do its thing" I feel like you forget that you don't always draw deaths shadow and half the cards in your deck are a free shock for them

Affinity wins on turn three maybe one game out of ten and that's against zero interaction. Any spot removal to Inkmoth/the one carrying plating/overseer or hell even t1 discard and you're set back by two turns at least.

Wow, spot removal totally kills deaths shadows turn 3 win too, great point though

Death's Shadow doesn't die to Bolt.

DS is basically immune to bolt 100% of the time and the deck runs Thoughtseize to clear way so it goldfishes t3 like a hundred times more consistently than Affinity.

Affinity can't afford space for protection spells and adds bolt to the list of spot removal which works, unlike death's shadow. Great affinity hands win T3 goldfish, great death's shadow hands win T3 through removal, which is the distinction. The turn 4 rule never cared about goldfish wins.

That's true, but literally every other card does, and turn 2 is not the time to play shadow, as he's usually a 1/1,

>Death's shadow runs thought seize main board
Ebin

>great deaths shadows hands win turn 3 through removal
Explain pls, cause I have been playing deaths shadow since Khans and that's literally never happened to me

>>infect and affinity literally winning turn 3 since forever
it's almost like infect got a nerf or something
really makes you think...