Pathfinder General /pfg/

>Hating Riven, Mithral, Flux, and Throne
>Thinking BB is fine

How does one manage to become such a tremendous faggot

Then don't allow the explicitly supernatural disciplines in your campaign. There. Easy. Done.

>Riven Hourglass
Narrative implications, mostly.
>Black Seraph
See above.
>Mithral Current
That one may just be annoyance at a specific player abusing it.
>Elemental Flux
I feel that it offers too much and doesn't really fit martials.

They're incredibly straightforward disciplines. PF is a little over the top in damage, but that's easily fixable.

OK, let's just do that. We'll work down the list in that order.

Piercing Thunder. Start from Level 1 Maneuvers. Which maneuvers are wrong and what could make it better?

>opinions
wew lad

As long as we're talking about PoW already, I need somebody to educate me on what the problem is with it. My understanding is that it was made with punching in mind but then people started using it with greatswords and stuff, so it turned out to be broken? What's a reasonable hot-fix for Broken Blade?

What the fuck narrative implications are there for those two? That you muck about with time and that you've got some dark energy? So what? More and more it seems like you're saying that martials aren't allowed to encroach on casters in any way.

>he doesn't see a problem with martials somehow having control over time and dark energy
How is that even a martial anymore?

Black Seraph's lore has a fair amount of implications about the origins of civilization.

Good applications actually make getting those abilities a significant backstory element.

>Halfcasters exist

How are these even casters anyway?

So anyone has read the first two modules of the Ironfan Invasion?

A weaker caster.

That doesn't work as an argument.

Because you're still hitting someone with something at the end of the day.
You can strip away fluff. Very easily in fact.
>applications
What?

pfggames.jpg

>Because you're still hitting someone with something at the end of the day.
Except when you're teleporting, turning into liquid shadow, shooting lasers, etc.

>martials are not allowed to do crazy shit

If Link is allowed to shoot sword beams, why the fuck can't I?

I'm saying characters that spend time incorporating Black Seraph or Riven Hourglass into their backstory are doing something right. user complained about the narrative implications of those disciplines while I'm saying competent people already know they have implications.

This argument never ends and never changes anyone opinions.

I personally don't think that teleportation is thematically a "martial" ability, you do, neither of us are going to change our minds.

Teleporting by swinging your sword, turning into liquid shadow through training with your sword, shooting lasers from your sword.

Off the top of my head...

>Phalanx Lancer exists
This needs to be a feat, you don't want to be stuck in a 1st-level stance your entire career.
>Iron Pikeman Attitude
This is basically another feat, and it becomes obsolete as soon as Mithral Armor starts existing. For Fighters
>Oaken Shield
Needs to scale better, maybe initiation modifier instead of +4.

The big issues with Piercing Thunder is that it has overlap with Primal Fury. Primal Fury does charging, and so does Piercing Thunder. Primal Fury is a lot /better/ at it. So in order to make Piercing Thunder more viable, you also need to nerf Primal Fury. The one way I see of doing this is to make Primal Fury the "one big hit" while Piercing Thunder does the whole, "charge, do fancy acrobatics, be a Dragoon from final fantasy." There's nothing wrong with a bit of overlap, but Piercing Thunder just doesn't /do/ anything other than chargemonkeying, and Primal Fury also does that and better.

Make it so that you're HARD-LOCKED into using discipline weapons. There we go.

Then you can change the lore. The mechanics of Black Seraph are basically "be spooky, intimidate others, use DARK ENERGY", you can change the fluff however you like.

What are some useful defense type Wondrous Items for sorcerers you can get for less than 10,000gp?

A swift cosh to the back of Ssalarn's head.

But... How are they doing this? Saying they can turn into liquid shadow by "training" is lazy and dumb.

Spheres of Might's martial traditions offer the following to any character:

>Some classes gain a martial tradition as part of their proficiencies, but characters who do not may choose to trade their starting proficiencies (other than simple weapons, light armor, and bucklers, if applicable) for a martial tradition at 1st level, as long as their normal starting proficiencies include proficiency with all martial weapons.

This seems far too strong in some cases. If you are a barbarian (with the right archetype), a hunter, an occultist, a ranger, slayer, a vigilante, then why *not* cash in your proficiencies for a martial tradition?

You can pick a tradition like Bushido Way to gain proficiency with heavy armor and full speed in all armor types, the Dueling sphere (take both drawbacks, gain Defensive Cut and Scar Tissue, take Muscular Reflexes, and enjoy your great resilience), and proficiencies with many good weapons, including nodachis and longbows.

This is also unfair to native heavy armor users like fighters and paladins, who get less out of this deal than others.

Can you imagine mixing the streams between Path of War and Spheres of Power? Imagine Strength-based mystics and stalkers (vigilante) starting off with heavy armor proficiency, full speed in all armor, Defensive Slice and Scar Tissue, Muscular Reflexes, and nodachi proficiency.

>TELEPORTATION ISN'T A MARTIAL THING!
Monk says hi, and he's calling you a faggot.

Isn't Phalanx Lancer the one that lets you 1-hand otherwise twohanded spears?

Cuz I think that feat exists in 1pp now. Although you need a shield. Dunno if Phalanx Lancer does too.

>Teleporting by swinging your sword
Except when it isn't, such as in Shattered mirror.

> turning into liquid shadow through training with your sword
Except when it isn't.

>shooting lasers from your sword.
Specifically for the maneuver I'm thinking of you summon a laser and throw it, like dark soul's lightening bolts

>Then you can change the lore. The mechanics of Black Seraph are basically "be spooky, intimidate others, use DARK ENERGY", you can change the fluff however you like.
Profane energy specifically, which was such a weird fucking choice because profane and untyped are essentially mechanically identical.

Alright, that's actually some good feedback for Piercing Thunder. So what we basically need to do is reduce charge dependency and move those stances out into feats or other things.

Is a monk a martial character?
The problem is that right now you're saying that the world is fundamentally magical. Demons, dragons, wizards, this all exist. But the second you pick up a sword you're now John the bumfuck knight in England c. 1245.

>Magus learns how to shoot fire and teleport and shapeshift by study and training

???

That's because teleportation is explicitly a supernatural thing you shitwheel. Monks are supernatural.

Like I said I don't feel it is thematically a martial ability, you do. I don't like abundant step personally.

Besides, monks exist on the edge of supernatural martials. Of the pure martials they're by far the most supernatural.

From my experience, Broken Blade overcompensates for unarmed and close weapon's lower dice. They grant +2 damage AND it has maneuvers that are straight up better than the ones found on other disciplines. God help us all if someone gets that on a character with scaling unarmed damage.

I'm saying I want to not just be a spell caster with a different coat of paint.

Another one, I don't consider trapping people's souls in mirrors to be a thematically martial ability.

Oh, Blingmaker started. Crap, now I have to debate if I want to save my dragon girl idea for Kingmaker or use it for both.

>fighter guy learns supernatural moves through training and meditation
>learns to move so fast he's practically teleporting through sheer force of will
>this isn't allowed because that's a supernatural thing and fighters CAN'T HAVE SUPERNATURAL THINGS
>nevermind that by level 6 you are a christmas tree of magic items and capable of superhuman feats anyway

I haven't kept track of things as closely as I should. Piercing Thunder stances need to be stuff you can swap out without crippling your build. So just make all the Piercing Thunder stances into feats that you can take... maybe as part of a style feat chain? Piercing Thunder seems to be the "weird Dark Souls build where you dual-wield a lance and a tower shield or a pair of greatswords or a greatsword and a whip" or something similar in terms of stances, and it weakens the discipline as a whole when you have to be locked into a single low-level stance that doesn't give damage boosts, and it weakens your character even MORE when you can't use better stances too!

Supernatural, but no spells! Like the Kineticist.

At this rate, is Spheres of Might ever going to become "commonly accepted" in /pfg/ games like PoW and SoP?

Profane does 50% more damage to good subtyped creatures.

The heck? That's not what I'm saying at all - besides, Scarlet Throne and Primal Fury are entirely mundane and extremely effective.

What I'm saying is it's just plain STUPID to say your character can stop time because "they can swing sword good." That's bullshit and is not only lazy, it's wasted potential. Yes, we're living in a magical world, but that does not and should not mean every single person is a magical girl waiting for their contract. There must be order to things, and there must be reason. Someone that knows Black Seraph might have a demonic possession, or maybe someone using Veiled Moon is partially disconnected from their soul, there's many many ways to actually add depth to a character with these supernatural choices and it pains me to see people think it's not worth even discussing.

So what you're saying, is, again, despite the world being fundamentally magical, the act of picking up a sword means that you are removed from magic land. You've created this false distinction in your mind whereby someone calling themselves a "martial" makes them no longer a fantasy character.

Sacred and Profane damage were a mistake

If you are a Mystic with Victorious Recovery with 16 Wis, does that mean you can actually kill something, get access to all your maneuvers and then cycle them again next turn?

This seems potentially hilarious for alpha damage

So, since the start of this conversation was "These things should be banned," your answer to "These things aren't used well," is not to raise standards but to ban them entirely.

Mark my words.
In a few months time, the most common shitposting isn't going to be about stormwinding, or whether PoW is OP, or 2hu.

The bait guaranteed to start an argument and consume the thread every time will be "PoW vs SoM, which is better? Should I use both?"

Fundamentally magical =/= Tippyverse, this is not Dragonlance.

>can stop time because swing sword good

Riven Hourglass does not let you stop time, faggot. It has a high level manuever that lets you TAKE AN ACTION IN STOPPED TIME.

Yes, and?

>learns to move so fast he's practically teleporting through sheer force of will
Except he IS teleporting, which means he can teleport inside a solid sealed box, passing through the object.

Trapping enemy's souls in mirrors, mind control, exploding into golden light and reforming from the twinkle in an ally's eye, having shadows hold someone down, laser eyes, summoning swords made of your soul, turning into a ghost, etc.

I don't think these abilities thematically fit on many martial's framework. Fighter, brawler, and cavalier for example.

I... I uhh... I was not arguing for or against that, I'm just taking offense at people who think supernatural disciplines need no explanation, or just a mundane one.

The thing is you should be able to be doing extraordinary things and participate without having do be able to do stuff like mind control, teleportation, etc. You should be able to be martial and extraordinary without just carbon copying casters and dumping a new coat of pain on.

but they fit other martials

so because some of this shit doesn't fit some characters, nobody can have it? thats retarded

You just have to make it part of their character that they have these supernatural edges.

por que no las dos?

What about the magus, martial focused occultist, and warpriest?

Do they get a pass because they get 'caster' as a blatant word at the top of their class description despite the fact they're doing largely the same thing?

Would you allow an Initiating Kineticist to use Elemental Flux?
What about an initiating Bard?

>Oaken Shield
>Needs to scale better, maybe initiation modifier instead of +4.
When I made a discipline with scaling maneuvers, the complaint I got was "these shouldn't scale because you're supposed to trade them out", so I dunno how well that would fly.

>so because some of this shit doesn't fit some characters, nobody can have it? thats retarded
No, never said that. I'm saying that some abilities don't thematically fit some classes. Which is why I don't like Unorthodox Method and Martial Traditions.

I'm happy with Myrmidon's current list except for maybe mithral current because mithral current can break mach 3.

Well ok. I just don't believe you should be calling it "martial" any longer. I'm not saying it's inherently bad, I'm just saying that for what I define as martial teleportation, laser eyes, mind control, etc. aren't martial.

They are tools to be used, and if your players are too much of a bunch of dumbasses to figure out how to justify them on classes that have no other flavor besides "hit things good" that doesn't mean they should be banned, it means you raise the fucking bar and tell them to justify it.

>people who think supernatural disciplines need no explanation
of course they need explanation, but telling someone they should probably explain their ability to pull a GBA Fire Emblem should be priority #1 instead of just screaming "MARTIALS SHOULDN'T DO THAT".

Eh well. Usually low-level maneuvers scale somewhat- I guess make it 2+initiation modifier and have later iterations have bigger static bonuses? I was iffy on even making it scale.

>What about the magus, martial focused occultist, and warpriest?
What I have to say is I am not against the use of these abilities. I just don't feel like you're still a martial. Thematically you've moved away from martial. Is that inherently a bad thing? Not really. I just don't personally want to play it or play with it as it doesn't invoke a style of game I enjoy.

>Would you allow an Initiating Kineticist to use Elemental Flux?
yeah sure, why not

>What about an initiating Bard?
Yeah sure

>supernatural things mean you're not a martial
>monks are once again no longer martials

WELL COLOR ME SURPRISED.

You see this faggot? You see how he's got fire? This is possibly an elemental flux-using Steelfist Commando. He punches motherfuckers with martial arts. He also lights them on fire by incorporating that into his martial arts. is he somehow not a martial?

I love the old FE crits.

>Not using best boy Ike for the example.

Sounds like you're way too hung up on the class name, then.

Honestly, Oaken Shield isn't a bad maneuver imo. At the levels you have it a +4 boost to your AC is pretty big, and by the time you trade it out the +4 isn't as useful. And it's not as hilariously easy to abuse as "make an easy-to-boost skill check vs an attack roll". Maybe incorporate it into the higher level counters somehow. Might work well if you get a stance or something that adds your Shield bonus to damage or something, I dunno.

Man, when I played FE:A, this is one part I sure missed, the hilariously over the top critical hit animations

It definitely rewards classes that just barely qualify (anything with only light armor proficiency + martial weapon proficiency) over classes that get everything like Fighters. Maybe certain martial traditions need a point cost and the amount of proficiencies you give up gives you points to determine what's a valid pick. What are your thoughts on balance between martial traditions themselves?

Potentially. There's just a few issues with Piercing Thunder but they're big ones- the stances are ALL trash and just need to be made into feats.

I would say no, he isn't really a martial. He's an odd form of supernatural character. Monks I don't really classify as pure martials either because they are explicitly very supernatural.

That doesn't look anywhere near as fucking sayisfying as other crit animations.

D+

Not so much class name is wanting to be a character who he himself does not do supernatural things. Having things that are magical and interacting with the supernatural, but he himself not being supernatural.

If I am to do stuff like teleport, control people's minds, shoot lasers, etc. I am being supernatural. Even if they are techniques gained through training it is still me doing supernatural things.

Does this mean I want to ban it for everyone? No, not really. I just don't want to play it. I went a little to far saying I don't want to play with it. I don't mind playing with it.

>Honest to god fighting game character is not a martial
You are getting hung up on the fact that some abilities in this system have different letters slapped on them than others. You are beyond help

Also, I would like to mention the fact that one of the most EFFECTIVE FIGHTER BUILDS IS NOT A MARTIAL by your definition, purely because "it has supernatural abilities". All because it can use magic. The FIGHTER is no longer a martial because it can do magic using 1pp. Think about that.

>implying martial has anything to do with supernatural or not
If your job is "I make enemies fall down via HP damage" you're a motherfucking martial. Whether that's via a sword, fist, or fucking fire-blast is semantics.

Yeah, that could work as a rework. All the stances become feats (or are feats already and don't need to be remade) and the stances become things that enable and enhance different playstyles instead of being requirements.

>He punches people
>He's a martial!
>He punches people and his punches set them on fire
>He's not a martial!

Definitely. Looking through it... The only two stances that aren't basically feats are the 5th and 8th level stances. 5th just makes you an AoO machine and 8th makes you more SAD (at the point where SADness stops mattering as much)

>Throwing mad shade at best boy
Do I need to remind you of what Ike did when he visited the states?

So that means that even the fireball "blasters" are martials?
:thinking:

I'm not saying not falling under my strict definition of martial is always a bad thing. I just don't want to be supernatural, just interact with the supernatural and own supernatural things.

I want to be a fly on the wall when Vult takes Cashmere and Gloriana on a ride on the rape train!

That may have been extreme, but if all your doing is tossing fireball/system equivalent your definitely bordering closer to "martial" spectrum of things than your caster kin.
You're looking for "mundane" or "extraordinary" then. I kinda agree, there needs to be more options for badass normal types.

I want to place literally everyone who has posted in this general in the past year in a gas chamber. Myself included.

We all need to hang.

What about Golden Lion, Scarlet Throne, Primal Fury, Iron Tortoise and Steel Serpent?

Ike's WORST boy. I will thrown a goddamn solar eclipse at that boy.

Well, worst outside of Marth.

then don't use supernatural disciplines?

Steel Serpent is supernatural. It relies on ki and chakras.
>Golden Lion
Too niche
>Scarlet Throne
>Primal Fury
Don't do enough exciting/versatile things and are of dubious balance
>Iron Tortoise
Too niche, shields still suck ass.

That's the plan. I don't like them and won't use them. Other people are free to.

then stop bitching

Make me.

That's a lot more fair than 'ban anything that doesn't fit my narrow definition of what any given class should do reeee'