Previous thread: >>52967103

>No title
you fucked up

Would you like fries with that?

Or perhaps a back massage?

I was about to point out that it would make things harder to find the the archive but let's face it, it's just going to be more bullshit power wanking in one direction or the other.

Who cares. The last thread needed to be ditched.

Just a second.

Archautismos aside, couldn't vamps just fight mages in city squares therefore fucking them up with paradox?

>vamp vs mage in front of public
>vamps runs up buildings, cloaks himself in shadow etc.
>mage tries to do the same
>blown up by paradox

Don't want to start shit just curious

Posting it in here just because the one user that cared enough to ask may already have switched threads.

They were proposing a scenario where the mage knew about Caine, then that he got this curse and how it works in a way that would put the mage in danger, and that it was of divine origin, all kind of information that nobody would know in a not theoretical setting. Just because "Oh, my new Universal Force isn't going to kill all vampires"

When I was just saying that they may do that, but god would just retaliate, and also the paradox, because you altered the whole universe to achieve this. (EVERY arch mastery creates huge Paradox, it's written in Mastery of the Arts, you can take a look at it)
I DIDN'T SAY THAT:
>Caine would survive all of this
>Caine is on par with Arch Masters because of this, or at all

I just said that he's most probably not even bounded to disciplines usage anymore, so it's not as easy to generalize it's power by using them as a measure.
And that God cares enought about Caine to probably act, despite the Nameless One argument.

I suppose it would depend on the anime i guess, but has a blanket statement, no. Even the more WOD-like anime's (Hellsing for example) are poor inspiration.

Mages could still pull of subtle magic, which isn't anything to scoff at despite not being as flashy.

I'll ask again, why is it so unlikely for a Mage to know about Caine?

Hmm, ok. Let's see here.

1. There are plenty of ways for Mages to 'know' things without outside/inside information.
This has been fairly evident throughout the Dark Ages, and is still prevalent in Awakening with an actual Knowing Practice.

2. Forces 9 'Alter Universal Forces' is quite horrific in application. It is more than likely the single most powerful ability in the WoD setting. I would actually consider it an ability you just can't win against, whatsoever.
Just imagine the consequences of turning off gravity everywhere.

3. The Paradox garnered from the Arch-Spheres runs off ST fiat, nothing more. It's an annoyance, yes, but it doesn't run off the normal mechanics.
You still don't go 'poof dead n' gone' from having it railed against you. MotA was written to be usable, not a suicide mission of the highest order.
Still, you cannot prevent the accumulation of the Paradox, but with Prime 9 you can throw it around.

4. God retaliating is the common end statement for the 'Caine vs Archmage' argument. We also have no basis as to who would win such an encounter. God didn't challenge The Unnamed in Hell on Earth, but he did step down during Gehenna. Both are equally enormous in capability, but there's still no way to determine who'd win in a fight with God and an Archmage.
Mixing the Arch-Spheres is supposedly enough to supersede God as is. Prime 9 / Forces 9 being one such example. Ten dots is supposedly omnipotence according to certain passages.

5. Caine is very much bound to the Disciplines, but he isn't bound to their specific purviews. He can improvise, as is his power. It's a great advantage.

In all honesty, the question as to whether or not an Archmage can take Caine 1v1 is fairly evident in answer. The Archmage is going to win. The seven-fold curse is easily worked around or overpowered using Entropy 4, Life 4, Matter 4, Prime 6 as the Rote inquires.
The real debate is whether the Archmage could triumph over God, which is quite possible

No, but I'd like to. I think that's a good way to keep the horror personal, and also to stop your players from going Rambo.

>if a Mage would ever try something like the Vampire Killing Force, he would just come into the Sevenfold Curse.

Defending against an angry universe is like attacking the air you breath. Forces 9 is changing the Tellurian to exist as you want it to. This isn't an attack, it's the restructuring of Creation.

Why not just make a universal force of 'no seven-fold curse'. Forces 9 is enough to effectively mimic every other Sphere to a massive degree. The example given was the 'there are no more genders' force.

Forces 9 is batshit insane powerful.

>The example given was the 'there are no more genders' force
So what happens if an SJW archmage manages to reach nine dots in Forces?

Are we fucked?

Again, I didn't say that Caine would survive it, but the curse effect will for sure.

Again, The mage would need to know about all of that.

No one ever reaches dots that high, so dw about it.

>1
You didn't provide any actual examples.

Are you going to propose something like "A mage just comes in and read a vampire mind to find out" Well, it doesn't work like that for the simplest of reasons, he would need to search for that particular information, or having a Vampire obsessed about Caine as much as this thread fags make me appear to be. Again Theoretical.

>2
Again, I'm not saying that the skill isn't strong, I'm just saying that it doesn't come without consenguences, and that's by the book.

>3
Wouldn't only be natural for a ST to do a mirrored effect or something of the same magnitude of the spell casted? You can argue about the method, not the common logic. You may say that MotA was written to be played, but I would like to remind you that was also the case for Wraith, in pratice the AS aren't really playable without huge conseguences or without using it in your realm. Also the book didn't say that you can throw it around, but it says that messing with the paradox with prime would make it worse (that like the fourth time)

>4
I doubt so, even if every Arch Mage is so powerful, it still has but a fragment of what it's to be considered "God's Soul" just imagine its being in comparison to the multitude of humanity.
Also, Implying that a mage would be able to have two level 9 Spheres is quite Theoretical and unlikely.

>5
There is no real and conclusive source to that.

You are probably the most biased vampfag I have ever seen before.
You're arguing against theoretical notions by using theoretical assumptions.

How do you even exist?

Theoretically.

Mages being the individual shards of God isn't a canon statement, and borders on the mindset of Demon The Fallen.

You're doubting canon material and believing canon material all at once. This is causing me to heavily doubt your standing in this debate.

Also, my only assumption is about the ST application of Paradox, but there again, I said that would be common logic, in my opinion at least, you can say your opinion about what would you do, and so other anons can, so we can see who's right.

For the other facts I'm just using lore knowledge that you can check anytime.

Rolled 13 (1d20)

Rolling for how many dicks you suck.

I like how there's only one person on the side of Caine here.

>mfw when a single vampfag is a worse instigator than a legion of magefags
Priceless

Also, I'm not doubting any canon, pelase double check my posts.

The Caine x Archmage debate is only ever brought up when a caine whore feels threatened.

The fact remains that Caine can't challenge the highest theoretical Archmage on account of just how far reaching the Archspheres are.

Rephrase
>a single vampfag causes butthurt to an entire legion of magefags

If they were more numerous they'd drown the magecucks in shitposts kek

It's just how it is.

Are archmages functionally a separate game from Mage?

I DIDN'T SAY THAT:
>Caine would survive all of this
>Caine is on par with Arch Masters because of this, or at all
I'm pretty sure that Magefags are really defensive for some obscure reason.

But whatever, I spent like 2 hours arguing about things I didn't even said, now it's time for me to continue to write my Mage short story, it's due tomorrow at midnight.

Kind of? It's much of the same sort of gameplay/themes just at scales and scopes well beyond any other gameline.

Do you even know what you're arguing at this point, dumbass?

Don't bother, magefags are incredibly disingenuous.

Godspeed user

Listen. The seven-fold curse won't protect Caine. An Archmage will promptly know just how to deal with Caine, and his improvisation of the Disciplines won't spare him the humiliation.

I only posted twice and didn't bother with anything or anyone else previously.

Can I get a rundown please?

There is your reply user.

Isn't it more that God babysits Caine, not that his particular curse or powers do shit? Archmage vs God is the real argument. Apparently Mage canon goes out of its way to de-power God, though, just so archmages beat it.

Thanks user.

It only takes Prime 9 and Forces 9 to dethrone God and mold the Tellurian in your personal image. It would actually spawn a multiverse if we go by RAW. Scary stuff.

I should really make a fan-made Rote for it.

Only? Isn't even one Archmastery like, really rare? Having 2 of them at max isn't downright impossible?

Not impossible. A very hard thing to achieve, but not impossible.

Nine dots also isn't the max. One can only imagine just how powerful ten dots would be. Only one canon mage has achieved that.

>Only one canon mage has achieved that

Al-Aswad The Unnamed

Quick rundown:
>archmages bow to Caine
>in contact with celestials
>rumored to posses undiscovered disciplines
>controls the world with an iron but fair fist
>owns castles and blood banks all over the world
>direct descendant of the first man
>will bankroll the first cities in the Umbra (Cainegrad will be the first city)
>owns basically every DNA editing facility on Earth
>first designer babies will be Caine babies
>said to have 400+ IQ
>own Nanobot R&D labs around the world
>you likely have Cainebots inside you right now
>nation states entrust their gold reserves to this guy. There is no Fort Knox, only Fort Caine
>He is 8000 years old, from the space-time reference of base humans
>In reality, he is a timeless being existing in all points of time and space from the big bang to the end of time

Wouldn't God have 10 in every sphere by that logic?

Did they really name their designated fanfic-level powerwank character Asswad? Was he a parody of munchkins/powergamers?

Wouldn't that just make God a mage? Wouldn't that just piss Caine whores even more?

Masters of the Art does suggest twice that a mage created the universe.... Hmmm....

Are we sure he is actually a separate entity from "God" in the first place?

Why would it piss of vampfags?

If it quacks like a duck and it walks like a duck, it's a duck.

If an extradimensional mage was responsible for Caine and the curse derived from him, you really don't think that would agitate Masquerade players?

Lilith possibly being an ancient Verbena already annoys some.

It would just be a classification, it wouldn't change what God is or anything.

There was a good bit left out, mechanically speaking. The Unnamed has a lot of special abilities and a lovecraftian battle form; a whirling storm of horrors.

The Unnamed is rolling 25+ dice on every spell, and can have 200 successes of combat spells up at once. He's got 10 dice to countermagic anything that targets him.
Along with his eldritch horror 'true form', which forces you to roll against a madness check; at 10 willpower you only have a 7% chance of NOT going batshit insane from just staring at him.

Infinite Quintessence is also ridiculous.

Yeah, a person with all of the powers, personality and historical acts of God is still just a description of God, not any change.

Yeah, but that would still make God a mage. People are going to be annoyed by that.

Or mages are just mini gods

The stereotypical God is already old, white and bearded. He might as well be a wizard.

I don't really give a shit about crunch interactions, because none of this archmage stuff will come up in any of my games anyway, but I've certainly learned to hate Mage through all of this shitposting.

Starting to see why magefags really believe their splat to be superior to the rest. These NPCs are no joke.

This started because of a Caine whore, not magefags.

Awakening fluff question. Are modern mages stronger or weaker than their ancient counterparts?

In modern times there should be an increased corpus of knowledge on the Arcana and increased networking between various regions. So I'd assume Mages have become stronger on average.

I really couldn't care less. Mages are ludicrously overpowered and devalue everything else in the universe by their mere existence. The splat, as a whole, shouldn't exist in any gameline other than its own.

Well they are kind of a joke. No one should ever want to play in an actual game with them. Mage adversaries are supposed to be Puzzle Combat, not All Doors Sealed Shut Have Fun

But the user said until the end that he wasn't even rooting for Caine, aren't you exaggerating or making excuses for your shitposting?

I might as well use this opportunity to bring up a tangentially related question I had: Didn't some source book say that caine could in theory have disciplines beyond rank ten, and could in theory make up entirely new ones on the fly?

He was pretty much rooting for Caine.

Who's the most powerful antagonist with stats in awakening either normal or arch master?

Caine can't exceed ten dots, but he can slowly devise new Disciplines as a story hook.
It has to be thematically appropriate, however.

Try reading Gehenna.

The ancient Atlantean mages had no Paths and as such all of the Arcana were considered Ruling.
They were akin to mini-Archmages according to DaveB.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Archmages were ludicrously more powerful as well. Maybe they didn't need Quintessence or ritual work to use the Imperial Practices, who knows.

Even Caitiff can create new disciplines if they wanted to, or in general every vampire if he puts enough effort into it, Caine can just create them really easily while them being really powerful.

I probably should have clarified. I was thinking more in terms of after the fall. Like hellenistic greece or imperial china.

What's the highest level of arcana obtainable in the Harry Potter universe though? 2 dots-ish?

Harry Potter wizards are weak as shit compared to most fictional wizards. They don't even have contingency spells.

'Lumos' would be like Forces 5.

The problem is that the potter-verse wizards are hideously dogmatic/uncreative.

The thing is that rote magic in the Potterverse is vastly easier to learn than in the World of Darkness, so this isn't very surprising.

So if Caine can't beat an Archmage, what can?

Preferably no "another archmage" responses please.

another archmage

They're generally low-power but have pieces of high-power littered throughout too, like much of the magical items and artifacts. Whatever the process is that permanently grants motion, life and personality to photos and paintings setting-wide is kinda big magic. The things beneath the Ministry of Magic in #5 and the literal time travel device in #3 are way powerful and had to have been made by someone.

Yeah, but the previous thread was going perfectly fine until someone decided to preach about how Caine could stand against high-powered Archmages, which just isn't the case.

I know the proper response to such an argument is "I don't care, I'm above taking sides", but in this case the apparent Masquerade player ruined the peace, not the Ascension players.

The argument itself doesn't matter to me; it's just annoying shitposting. What matters is the facts it revealed about Mage itself, and they aren't flattering.

Going to ask again since the Cainefag neglected to answer me both times, why is it unlikely for a Mage to know about Caine?

A guy with a gun the arch mage doesn't know about

Ok. I'm going to be perfectly blunt here. Forgive me for poking into a corpse.

How does planetary equate to universal? This Caine vs Archmage schtick seems so fucking ridiculous as to be entirely nonsensical.
I'm speaking of common sense here. It makes absolutely no sense, no way no how, to assume that a planetary threat, AKA Caine, could somehow combat/challenge a being capable of busting entire galaxies, AKA the Archmages and their evolved brethren.

I know baitposting is a common occurrence in these threads, but you can't be THAT unrealistic about things, right?

The Cainefag bailed.

Why is caine planetary?

...

Vampfaggots don't run on logic.

They run on evangelical bias.

Have any vampires ever demonstrated anything above that?

I wonder if people even read what I wrote, at least pretend to read before screaming about the cainefag boogeyman.

Now, if you excuse me.

You wrote nonsense.

Honestly hate vampfags more than magefags at this point. It only took one to ruin an entire thread and now this one.

Thanks a lot Pope faggot.

I haven't read any oWoD beyond hunter, so I wouldn't know, I was just asking the question. Still that seems kinda shakey, like assuming there is some vampire out there who could punch the earth in half, he obviously never would

There are vampires capable of destroying planets. But only planets. They can't blow up stars or cause black holes to eat galaxies.

Or worse, shut off gravity everywhere.