Wild West + Good Character Creation system

I've been here before, i came here a couple months back asking for what system would work for a game set in the wild west that had a good gun system, magic, + good character creation and GURPS was recommended a lot, i kind of knew the meme but went for it anyway.

its been a fucking disaster nobody in our group likes GURPS and the GM is upset because he thinks he has to run it because he doesn't know an alternative.

so i come to you in my time of need in hopes for finding a system that can actually have diverse character (Plenty of fantasy games do this well), a magic system hopefully. but also involve more modern mechanics such as machines/guns/science/etc... without it being the fucking nightmare crunch that is the stupid GURPS book.

Were no strangers to home-brews, so if we need to we can change the vibe and look of the game to become wild west. or if worst comes to worst modify another competent fantasy system to have guns, but I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.

Savage Worlds?

Yea, Deadlands is exactly what you are looking for.

Have you personally played deadlands? I'm also scouring for a system and want personally recommendations not just spitting out something you've heard.

I have played and run Deadlands Reloaded, and run Deadlands Noir.

Anything you'd like to know in particular?

Sorry if that sounded hostile, I do genuinely appreciate the help.

Character creation: how's it work?
Can anyone be a mage?
Guns/lethality?
OP mentioned science? I would wanna be an inventor type.

Do you like the system?

OP here, thank you very much. day you still play it? honestly my only question before i look into it. how crunchy is it?

Not him, but:
-Chargen is point-buy but very simple, you have five points for attributes and fifteen or so for skills. There's also feat-like things called Edges that cost two skill points, but you get one for free for being human
-Anyone can be a mage if they take the right Edge, but since that eats into your available resources it's a decision that shouldn't be made lightly
-Guns will fuck you up, almost all rolls in Savage Worlds explode including damage and a slug to the head has a fat damage bonus if it hits
-There's a special Arcane Background for that, it basically lets you build powers like a spellcaster gets into equipment

Hope Genesys is good, it'd be nice to have a good universal system for those afraid of GURPS.

I didn't take it as hostile, no worries.

Character creation: You have points in the various categories (Attributes, Skills, Edges/Feats), you can get more points by taking flaws.

Mage/science: Yes, though in Deadlands being magic has some consequences, like being a mad scientists has demons whispering in your head how to make a freeze gun/cats are after your eye juices, being a huckster/sorcerer means your magic functions off of gambling, with others (Shamanism/Blessed/Magic Kung Fu/Voodo) being rather less onerous but somewhat less powerful.

Guns/lethality: The base system is Savage Worlds, which is rather pulp. To that effect, regular people/mooks have 1 HP, player characters and important people have 3 HP, and have Bennies that can be used to save themselves/mess with probability.

The system is moderately crunchy, and you are better off planning exactly what you want your character to do well ahead of time.

Not the same guy but I'm running a deadlands game right now. Character creation is pretty standard, I like the incorporation of edges and hinderances. They're great for roleplaying purposes/ neat character quirks. It's a point buy system where you buy the dice you roll. you start at a d4 and go up to a d12.
Combat is alright it creates a good way to have characters with mainly social stats be useful and contribute to combat.
I really liked it on paper because I saw that there were many modifiers that would effect combat. height, surprise, a whole bunch for almost all circumstances. Unfortunately it's my first time Gming this particular system and I've been overwhelmed with figuring out exactly what modifiers are important enough to keep track of.
The world is great, all of the magic has a price which is good to keep it even.

FATE is the only other real generic I can think of, would that work for this? I'm guessing not.

Rolled 6 (1d20)

What issues did you have with GURPS?

We need to know why GURPS didn't work. Normally, I'd recommend Dogs in the Vineyard but it's so different than most RPGs that it could just as easily lead you away from success as towards it.

needlessly complicated, half of the passages in the book need to be translated into english and easy to understand terms just to get the other people in the group to get it. the book itself isn't super complicated, but its like they went out of their way to make things sound more complicated for pretentious reasons.

the skill system explanation could have beens o simple, its really is actually. but to go about buying skills they made the thing scattered across 2 paragraphs to explain that it correlates to the chart.

the gadgeteering system i had to spend a whole day trying to figure it out because they kept adding stuff in at the wrong areas to confuse you, and then i translated that so the GM could understand in 5 minutes how it worked. its so easy it can be understood in 5 minutes, but the whole section is there and it took hours in their language.

and thats not even the inventing system itself which is a clusterfuck, if i wanted to do anything the book doesn't give me anything to do it, the inventing system merely says we have a system for it but doesn't tell you what you can do. if i want +1 damage or to strap a crossbow to a gun or to build a spider robot. it doesn't tell you. sure i can easily fluff quality weapons, but then I dont need Gadgeteering, i can also do combining but then i ALSO dont need Gadgeteering cause theres normal rules for that. so what does gadgeteering even do?

guns, i understand the era and the "realism" so i can't really be too harsh on them for this, but i was kind hoping to fight at least 2 groups of enemies before the players died.

and of course the fact that anytime i want to do anything i have to go check through 2 other sections of the book to get it running. i understand if you try to do everything you're not gonna be good at everything. but i just want something that won't give an aneurism or take 4 days for building a character that has a crossbow strapped to his wrist.

FATE is a good system if you aren't worried about the game being crunchy and the GM can be improvisational.

Fate will work for anything provided you're willing to do the mechanical legwork for it. Atomic Robo basically handles cowboys, superscience, and magic already.

hows it compare to gurps in complication?

laughably easy

I get the basic set being as disorganized as hell, but it sounds like you dove right in rather than start with GURPS lite as we always recommend. Sorry it didn't work out for you.

Have you tried WoD or FATE? They sound more your speed.

New and translating into a different language? That's really rough. I want to say you would've had more luck with GURPS Lite, but that has its own problems.

Complicated in an entirely different way. Fate is a storytelling game, not a roleplaying game. It's for groups of proactive GMs. Most rules are concerned with narrative, rather than mechanics, so it looks rules light, but the book is 300+ pages for a reason.

My apologies, i never looked at GRUPS lite because i was told on here that Lite was a bastardized version of the system that shouldn't have even been made.

GURPS is just a shitty game, man.

Fate is as complex as you want/allow it to be.

It has its problems. Immediate ones I can think of for a western game are a lack of animals like horses and coyotes, only three genre appropriate guns (derringer, revolver, and lever-action carbine), no fast-draw rules, and no explosives (dynamite's a western staple). It also has more general problems for combat (no deceptive attacks, retreats, or rapid fire rules) and being generic/universal (no magic, no advice or rules to make it less or more lethal).

What GURPS needs is a Powered by GURPS line of products, which we're seeing with the new Discworld book and the Dungeon Fantasy RPG. I suggest giving the latter another try once it comes out near the end of the year, although if you have to translate for your group that might be more trouble than it's worth.

This, Savage Worlds rocks. The playing cards work great for a western setting, and the system is fast and easy. Is better if you have miniatures but with a minimal amount of work it doesn't need them

yeah I'm probably the most (overly) angry in our group because so much of the work was on me to translate it just so everyone else would give ti a shot. its probably not the worst on the planet.

I'm also curious about this. Been looking around for a while, and so far I think either Deadlands/Savage Worlds or some bastard homebrew would be best.

GURPs is too much. FATE might be alright, but I'm not sure I want to use a general purpose system. Its a weird niche, so I don't think there's really a perfect solution.

Pick up the FFG Star Wars book at the "Edge of the Frontier" western hack. It might not be everything you're looking for but it's worth a shot.

Any opinions on what the best edition of Deadlands to pick up is? Reloaded?

Games so far

GURPS lite
FATE
Savage Worlds (PBA?)
Deadlands (Reloaded?)
Home-brew Pathfinder i think someone said?

>zombie cowboy
>bodkin arrowheads
>IMMERSION BROKEN

I have used Mutants and Masterminds 2ed
for a variety of western and modern games.

You will need to go to a Western game for inspiration, pricelists and settings

M&M is good for me because D&D players can pick it up in about 10 minutes
It is streamlined and totally customizable.

Deadlands: Reloaded is Weird West Savage Worlds.

IMO it's too late now, but it's a shame some moron steered you that way.

You could just as easily call it GURPS Core. There are a few simplifications, but mostly it's the system without all the distractions of badly organized basic set and without all the options and special rules.

Basically, we at GURPS general usually recommend that your players each download GURPS Lite (free), then the GM has the basic set and uses the absolute minimum, and adds rule options like cinematic gun damage one at a time and very sparingly.

The players just see Lite and the particular powers/abilities from the Basic Set that their character actually has.

Like I said, it's too late now. Your group is probably soured on GURPS forever. But in case someone reading the thread is looking to do this, learn from this user's example.

Also go to the sjgames GURPS forum and /the/ GURPS general for advice from experienced players eager to help newbies.

oh yeah, let em commend the people over at the GURPS discord, there is no better group of people. they were on the ball with helping me understand stuff and find replacements, or even help build something that i could use as a template. praise be unto them.

Dogs is one of the easiest games to pick up though, there is "magic" but it's not what op wants.

can i at least hear about it? I've heard the name once before.

Dogs in the Vineyard is a great game where you play Mormon Paladins roaming pre-statehood Utah delivering mail, solemnizing marriages, and fighting demonic corruption.

Its a paradigm shift for most people familiar with RPGs because its relatively rules light and introduces concepts not commonly in other RPGs.

The system is very simple so as to not get in the way of the narrative. Essentially the only time you're rolling dice is when you're in a conflict. There are four stats and four kinds of conflicts (non-physical/verbal, physical, fighting, and gunfighting) You roll your two relevant stats to the conflict and then you take turns narrating your actions to bid and call those dice back and forth until one side is out of dice or gives up. You also have traits and equipment that can bring in other dice into the conflict.

There's no time limits on conflicts, I once had a character trying to get over his stagefright and the conflict took place in his mind over the course of 2 seconds. I've also had a conflict that took a week as the players were trying to track down bandits. And everything in between.

Savage Worlds, FAE, Strike! and PbtA fill that spot for me.

>Savage Worlds (PBA?)

Savage worlds is NOT PBA (assuming under PBA you mean Powered by the Apocalypse).

correct, that is what i had meant, i thought it was an offshoot of apocalypse world

>i thought it was an offshoot of apocalypse world
Savage Worlds has a complex history. Let me break it down:

In the beginning there was Deadlands: The Weird West. This spawned two setting sequels (Hell on Earth and Lost Colony), and some rules ports (I'm aware of GURPS 3e and d20 ports, there may be others). It also spawned a wargame set in The Weird West, called The Great Rail Wars. Great Rail Wars used a simplified version of the Deadlands system, stripped down to be easier to use in a wargame situation. Pinnacle Entertainment began working on a new generic game, basing it on the Great Rail Wars simplified Deadlands system. That system is Savage Worlds, and the whole thing's come full circle with the Deadlands Reloaded line of supplements.

So, Deadlands Reloaded (and Hell on Earth Reloaded) are ports of a setting to a system that is the double derivative of their original system.

It's super-flexible, though, so you could re-work the magic system easily. The big issue is that it's such a huge jump mechanically from most other RPGs; having a big pile of rolled dice in front of you to "vote" with is a very different core mechanic than "roll dice to see if you succeed."

one quick bump before bed

Have you considered GURPS slightly less autistic cousin Basic RolePlaying?
BRP already got a couple of western-supplements that can be easily hacked into the version of the game called Mythras, which has very solid gunplay and everything else.

Surprised nobody has said Shadowrun. It's got tons of gun mods, magic, edge to represent that kind of classic gunslinger vibe of being lucky as fuck. You'd just need to trim out the large amount of fat regarding cyberware and the more cyberpunk setting.

Shadowrun has even more rules crunch than GURPS, and it buys you a lot less.

I'd suggest shadowrun for a game like this only if the group already knew and liked the system.

It's exceedingly flexible but I feel like the absolute morale authority the players possess is a big part of what makes the game good. The scenarios that are presented to the players are without limitations. They can do anything they want. Hell, the rulebook even says that as the GM you should not and will not condemn them for actions they take as its their character to play.

I literally don't know anyone that likes the Shadowrun system.

I kinda like the dice pools. Feels nice to roll a fuck ton of d6s.

I like the classless character creation too. The karma system is pretty cool.

But so much of the system is needlessly complex and convoluted. Why does Shadowrun need rules for how a grenade bounces? And everything related to the Matrix is a fucking mess.

Yeah the classless character creation is okay, but it really hammers you into a role moreso than actually having a class.

>classless character creation
>hammers you into a role moreso than actually having a class.
What the fuck am I reading. How does being free from narrow constraints force you into even narrower constraints? Shadowrun says you're shit if you aren't specialized, but that's no fault of classless creation, that's a fault of the system.

Thank you for answering your own question.

I have several friends that love the game as a whole, mainly for the setting. So it's the system they know. In such a situation yeah that's what I'd recommend.

But you're right that nobody in their right mind plays shadowrun for its great system.

If I want a satisfying handful of dice, WoD scratches that itch. Though I get the fun factor of throwing a ton of dice down.

If Shadowrun had classes, how would it be less specialized than without classes? You would still be bad unless you laser-focused on a role. Class or classless has nothing to do with it.

There are still stakes, rules and consequences, as the GM I've never had to get involved against a pc trying to fuck up my scenario, usually the rest of the party decides to hang him for blasphemy.

If you really want to be invoved in one of the various shadowrun aspects (combat, social, legwork, matrix, magic, astral, etc) you are heavily encouraged to minmax as hard as you can into that particular aspect to the detriment of all others.

If Shadowrun actually had actual classes it would force you to branch our into other things. A Face could pick up some hacking, a combat monster could have some social skills, etc. Maybe a class/subclass system? I don't know.

There's a much simpler solution to that than reworking the entire chargen system: point buckets. Bucket of X points can be dumped into whatever you're specialization is, bucket Y has to be secondary/background. It edges towards the line of point-buy vs. classes, but it's not as rigid as something like Anima that has chargen rules equivalent to a tax code for what you can spend where and how.

You're not wrong.

For weird West:
Savage Worlds - Sixth Gun, a skilled down version of deadland. Perfect for weird west.

BRP - Devils Gulch

For general West:
Sidewinder d20
Aces and Eights
Six Gun