Sigmarines are really starting to grow on me, as is the AoS setting

Emberfire
Emberfire

Sigmarines are really starting to grow on me, as is the AoS setting. I think in time, more and more people will come to accept it.

All urls found in this thread:
https://icv2.com/articles/games/view/26216/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-lines-spring-2013
GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Emberfire

No I won't, suck a cock you fucking faggot.

Old World Forever, Sigmarines Never

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@GoogleCat

WHFB was selling like shit, it was old, and needed a change.

Age of Sigmar is actually doing well, because the setting is flat out superior and more unique.

It's time to get over it, my man. The bitterness will only consume you, over time. Embrace change.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Emberfire
I like them.

FastChef
FastChef

@Evil_kitten

Prove it you fucking cunt. Prove Warhammer fantasy was bombing in sales.

I've looked at their investor reports from 1997, and they Never divest which lines sell more than others. So you better have some hard facts to back that up you fucking GW Drone.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@FastChef
Their last investor report at the end of 2016 said it was selling better

You can't seriously think a decades old game with no support and no new content was doing well.

Techpill
Techpill

@Deadlyinx

If I write it into the fluff hard enough, I can tell people their opinions are wrong.

That is the same piss weak argument that was used as a justification for a 40k model to be put into Warhammer Fantasy.

b-but i cant remember that.

They put the fucking Soulgrinder on a square fucking base and sold it for the fucking daemon faction.

Go fuck yourself

StonedTime
StonedTime

I like some things about AoS. The aesthetics, the dynamic of having the good guys invading worlds of evil, rather than civilization perpetually crumbling. That's cool with me.

I dislike the fact they nuked the old world to do it and the fact that the end times fluff was so fucking aweful

They could have used chaos to justify anything. They chose to do a complete scrub. And while I sort of understand, it's just so dang disappointing to see the setting go to waste

DeathDog
DeathDog

@Emberfire
Obvious shill is obvious

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Emberfire
I will never like Age of Sigmar because it was born from the death of Warhammer fantasy.

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying it's fair to not give the new setting a chance, but I know there are a bunch of people who feel the same as I do.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Harmless_Venom

You're wrong, and your lack of knowledge is only compounded by the fact that you're so far up GW's asshole that you can't even see it.

Warhammer Fantasy 8th had more support, more summer campaigns, more factions than any other edition besides Third. If you had bothered to google it you'd know that.

You are a butt hurt AoS player who can't accept that your precious game Bombed the franchise, and caused a miniatures stock market crash that we have never seen before.

Why else would the CEO resign, a Generals Hand book with a points system be introduced, and the way GW operates on a Fundamental level change.

You fucker

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Deadlyinx
Well. Huh. That actually kinda warmed me up to them.

I mean, still not a huge fan, but I see the appeal now.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@Harmless_Venom
this game isn't selling so well because we made shitty rules, let Matt Ward write army books, and we haven't updated the models in a long time
should we fix that?
no, let's kill everything and add space marines
people love space marines

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@happy_sad
You're way too upset and irrational about this.

Also the market didn't crash, even a little. GW is doing quite well.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Emberfire
Doubtful.

For one, there is no real setting for AoS. It's just a mishmash of random shit with nothing to ground it and no real sense that anything is at stake. Oh, sure, the fluff tells you than the nine realms of yada yada hang in the balance, but there's no reason to care when the only real representatives for these realms are faceless, emotionless, eternal warriors.

You can wax poetic all you want about millions of worlds burning in Archaon's wrath, but it still won't hit as hard as one city in the Reikland being pillaged by northmen. There's more audience engagement in that one short story about some Bretonnian child kissing a frog that turns into an orc than there is in the entire AoS setting.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Deadlyinx
no, these guys in power armor are totally different than these guys in power armor

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Stark_Naked
But user, your dudes!
You can't make your own shit up in an established setting, no my kingdom, no me.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Methnerd
Which is why I say they should have done this infinite worlds thing without nuking the old world.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Deadlyinx
Reminder that GW retconned this and told the author to go fuck himself.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@New_Cliche
Yes, yes it did you moron.

You had a vast migration of customers taking up with companies like Mantic, playing games like Bolt Action, and reverting to board and card games rather than stay with anything on the table top.

We can Prove that. From Facebook group numbers jumping, to tournaments around the world Not Using AoS or any variation of it.

You corporate stooge, you false news peddling sell out, how much is GW paying you to try and re write history? Your game damn near killed the company, the player base, and you want to deny that.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Methnerd
@eGremlin
They should have done neither.

All that was really necessary was fixing the mess 8th ed had made of army composition, and introducing a more publicized version of the rules that doesn't really on formation gameplay to cater to more players. Your dudes can exist pretty easily in The Old World. It's a big place.

Failing that, if they really HAD to wreck everything, they should have gone for a post-apocalypse fantasy setting where the remains of the former factions are picking themselves up a thousand or so years after Chaos has been forced back at great cost, allowing for smaller factions rediscovering the setting.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@eGremlin
If there are infinite worlds does that mean storm of chaos is canon in one of them?

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

ICv2 from fall 2013, not the lack of WFB in the top five

(in fall 2012, WFB placed 4th, but it was clearly no longer moving product by this point)

takes2long
takes2long

@Nude_Bikergirl
and fall 2016, just after the release of the GHB

Spring 17 again shows AoS falling off the top 5, but to be fair they have had very little in the way of releases for AoS this year (steam dwarves and some tzeentch stuff, but that's it)

hairygrape
hairygrape

@Emberfire

Warhammer Fantasy didn't have to end.

They sure as Fuck didn't need to crowbar Stormcasts into the setting, but the old world, the game system, there was no reason for it to die.

It is this companies equivalent of a 9/11 moment. Systems across the board failed to realise how bad of a reaction a change of this kind would cause. And because of that, they've been forced to change overnight

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@takes2long
and if you look at 2014 and 2015 it isn't just a fluke either. The sad truth is that WFB just wasn't selling and most of the product line was really old and shitty, but WFB grognards just love to stick their heads in the sand.

Yes I liked the Empire Militia kit that was from the 90s with all the weapon options, but it makes perfect sense why they wouldn't want to keep selling a kit like that.

idontknow
idontknow

@takes2long
And yet it still sells better than Fantasy for GW.
Then again their mindbroken fanboys will happily defend even their Australian prices tooth and nail so it's not surprising.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Harmless_Venom
@Evil_kitten

It was said a while back that in 2016 AOS had started to sell slightly better that WFB. It took them almost 2 years and a shit ton of investment to do it including a huge revamp in the game design. All that time their money and name was in the the fucking shitter while Total War Warhammer was making a fucking killing.

Remember how people started playing when End Times happened? And then AOS bomb dropped and everyone stopped? Imagine what would have happened if they just invested in the existing game in those years.

TechHater
TechHater

@lostmypassword
And then AOS bomb dropped and everyone stopped
again look at the reports

people stopped buying WFB long before AoS was released. AoS was a response to product not moving.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@idontknow
Then again their mindbroken fanboys will happily defend even their Australian prices tooth and nail so it's not surprising.
but isn't everything crazy expensive in australia for no reason? I know australians complain about it a lot. Even steam games cost arbitrarily more in australia

askme
askme

@Spazyfool
That only explains a little of the inflation, not almost costing double.

hairygrape
hairygrape

The main problem with AoS is, while there *is* a setting there, they've made it as obtuse as possible to learn about it.
Every main book for 40k, going back to the original, has given a primer on the Imperium of Man and the various other races.
The first main book for AoS just had lots of big pictures saying 'Here's Chaos!!! And here's Sigmarines! And THEY FIGHT!!!' and fuck-all else.
There's been no big book explaining anything since then - there's been battletomes giving a tiny sliver of knowledge about individual factions (and because of the way we classify factions now, this is *very* random and *very* specific), and the occasional novel, and that's it.
Doesn't help that a few too many fans think shouting 'READ THE NOVELS' counts as providing a helpful primer on the setting.
Then again, it *also* doesn't help that critics of the setting keep reposting the shitty maps from the initial release.
All in all, they could have handled the initial launch way better, and they really should have gotten their shit together and given some sort of primer since then, but I'm willing to believe there's a decent setting in there. It's why I'm sort of excited about the upcoming rpg; hopefully some gaps get filled in.

WebTool
WebTool

@Stupidasole
Wait....WHAT?
When?
I thought the whole point of Stormcasts was that they were dead heroes returned to life? If that isn't the case anymore, what are they? What got changed?

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@TechHater

implying fantasybabs will ever relent in their retardation

fantasy tabletop was fucking shit, fucking DOGSHIT

I'm glad it was killed, and I'm glad AoS happened. It's so much more fun.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@WebTool

believing people this easily

it's just another assblasted fantasy fanboy, they give zero proof for their claims

whereismyname
whereismyname

@BlogWobbles
(You)

Nojokur
Nojokur

@hairygrape
yep that's a very fair gripe

but if the AoS rules were in an 80 dollar book set with lore, people would have been pissed off about that too.

I think a good in between would be to release a big book of maps, pictures, stories, and descriptions of all the mortal realms, the history, etc.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@BlogWobbles
babs
mostly derided as grognards
Don't start contradicting yourself, I know the dark elves, sorry the darkling aelves, are the good guys now but try and have some semblance of cohesion.

likme
likme

@Nojokur
AoS would have pissed anyone off.
take your army you've been building for years
now put them on round bases
also static hit/wound rolls
It's like a bad copy of KoW.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@Emberfire
I'm perfectly prepared to believe that Age of Sigmar is a better game and product than WFB and maybe even good in its own right.

But that will never change that the stormcast look fucking ridiculous.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Emberfire
wtf i like sigmarines now

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Emberfire
It's already happened. Only sour 9th age grapes hang on to the by now completely pointless rage. Fuck, I've played WFB for over 10 years, and I'm glad they pulled a reboot, 8th edition was just awful, and it was clear they wrote themselves into corner regarding future expansion options.

FastChef
FastChef

@likme
they didn't tell anyone to rebase their models

and static hit/wound rolls are not really a problem since saves and wounds were adjusted to compensate

I heard the guy who set his army on fire on youtube ended up playing AoS later

Illusionz
Illusionz

I think we all can say at least we liked or loved the Old World. But just to out one note: As much as we and other nerdy gamers knew warhammer fantasy, to an outsider it was near indistinguishable from other fantasy games. It was not uncommon to see people drawing comparisons to warcraft. Besides Total Warhammer where still many fantasy fans reside, the brand could not stand on its own two feet in the general market to potential new buyers. An orc is an orc is an orc.

I dont agree with how GW handled the old world by squatting it but I can fully undrstand why they rebranded it. The first year and a half was rough but once they started focusing on it, it grew exceptionally.

Even myself who loved Warhammer, did not buy the figures, only the books. Mainly because building an army was obscenely expensive, even for a warhammer investment.

So while killing the old world was far from ideal, I think the rebranding was the best solution to the stagnant sales. The easy rules and viability of entry cost I actually bought a box of figures after god kniws how many years. So there is one example where it got new money where it would never have before. Not a huge fan of the fluff but the game seems far more appealing mechanically.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@Carnalpleasure
Stormcast really should have gotten proper medieval helmets. The facemasks they wear really turn me off.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@likme
Replacing a game where you might need to paint formations of 80 goblins or skeletons to have a competitive army with a round-base skirmish game that noobs can easily get into seems like a sensible move. Hell if they'd done something like that but kept the old setting I'd have been tempted to get into it, and I haven't played Warhammer in more than a decade.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@FastChef
That guy was a retard anyway. Made for some interesting imagery, though.

@BlogWobbles
AoS has a skirmishgame of the week - tier playerbase.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@likme
Static rolls are in no way worse than S/T charts when 90% of units were within 1 point of each other in those stats. There wasn't enough granularity of stats to warrant the chart.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Nojokur
Yeah, that. Honestly, it's what I want, even now.
And it's true that a really expensive rulebook wouldn't have helped matters either, they really managed to paint themselves into a corner by killing off Old World. (Not gonna argue the merits of the decision or anything, just saying.) It seems like having a book that explicitly states 'Oh! That old army of yours? Here's the basic gist of the new lore!' would have been worth a try. Yes, it would have resulted people sperging out about not liking the changes to Their Dudes, but it's better then, for instance, making vague noises about the nature of Dwarves, but only talking about the Doozers and Scrooge McDwarf.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@likme
I don't mind static hit rolls, but static wound rolls are dumb.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Fried_Sushi
The thing is, the sorry state of 8th was direct result of their greed.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Fried_Sushi
Replacing a game where you might need to paint formations of 80 goblins or skeletons to have a competitive army with a round-base skirmish game that noobs can easily get into seems like a sensible move
Except for the existing fan base you're burning, and that the prices went up ($45 for 10, and you're gonna need at least three boxes at least).
Also it was entirely wasteful since they already have a simple skirmish game that's a recognizeable ip in lotr.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Emberfire
I don't get why we need both. Just clutters gameplay for no reason.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Snarelure
The problem with that is that the mortal realms right now are a post-apocalyptic settting. The apocalypse happened, chaos won. Only survivors were in very hard to get places (slayer-dorfs in lakes of lava castles or in clouds) or in Azyrheim, where all races live under Sigmar's gaze in cities and villages, and there's probably not much in way of unique culture left beyond somebasic stereotypes.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@Emberfire
@viagrandad
kow
each unit has their static roll an enemy needs to wound them, no saves, and they may have abilities to modify this roll
aos
each unit wounds on their own fixed roll, and the enemy still needs to save do there's a third set of rolls and after that you may have to see multiple damage
They fail at simplification.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@eGremlin
Burning old fanbase was a plus. You got rid of some absolutely rancid waac-ers and grognrds who had a genuine abused-spouse view of the company. You don't want to hold on to this kind of toxic fanbase if you want to market a new product to wider audience.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Stupidasole
I forget which one, but some of the books talk about chaos worshipping humans living in the other realms. The silver tower barbarian was seeking to bring power back to his clan.

and the hidden city book and shadows over hammerhal game suggest that even sigmar's cities are more diverse and nuanced than expected

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Emberfire
@JunkTop
it's insane that they would rewrite the whole game and not think about making it so a simple attack doesn't take at least 3 rolls to resolve. why would you ever need more than a static to-hit and armour save, especially when there are plenty of effects that can modify these rolls?

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@lostmypassword
there were chaos-humans, btu that's still chaos really. Hammerhal and such are fairly new, I think lore-wise we're now moving into stage-2 (with stage one being sce vs chaos for initial bridgeheads) where we have settlers and non-sce armies from azyr striking out in a sort of stargate-wild west way.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@BinaryMan
Free people/empire are getting spotlight next seemingly. We will see how that goes.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@Soft_member
Why would you market this new game instead of the already existing game you just paid to renew?
All the work is done, it even has popular movies and books. Why just let it fester there?
You want to advance the setting? Advance it, put us 500 years after storm of chaos. Give us new characters, new things in the old world.
How about those other factions like Tilea, Estalia, the border princes, Araby, Cathay, Nippon, Ind, Khuresh, the hobgoblins, there was so much to be explored.
Maybe in the future the empire is in an industrial revolution? Fuck.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Nude_Bikergirl
Not him but fantasy as a setting was not distinguishable enough from generic fantasy to the main body of customers. As in potential new buyers. We know all the fluff but many dont. Orc and human? "OH ITS LIKE WARCRAFT!" or "Oh its just another fantasy game".

An expansion would have kept the setting alive but not the customer base. Keep it relatively the same, no new minis, no major fluff changes and barely new customers.

It urgently needed a rebrand.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@haveahappyday
Empire Militia
You have no idea how salty I am that went. Still have one of the last they sold in a white box.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Dreamworx
It needed to be rebranded as a wow clone?

TechHater
TechHater

@Dreamworx
Wow is hardly a thing anymore, grandpa. And many people want just that, orcs and elves. I fail to see how rebranding the same models with new, trademarkable names improve anything form the customers point of view.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Illusionz
indistinguishable from other fantasy games
the widespread guns and steam tank are indistinguishable from other settings
full retard

whereismyname
whereismyname

@MPmaster
No though I do see the oarallels. It needed more eye catching and immediate appeal. Space Marines sell. A LOT. If I saw a knight fighting a hulked out black orc on a poster I am going to assume 1. D&D 2. Warcraft 3. Generic fantasy. I shrug and move on.

If I see hige armoured warriors in gold fighting hulking red armoured warriors? That stands out and that is what GW needed to attract new customers. I love Fantasy as a genre as much as most here. But its been done to death so standing out is very hard. Hell its why I dont play KoW. Same thing, different label.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@haveahappyday
Ah, yes. Like they removed or replaced all the old or older sculpts, like zomb... sorry. DREAD SHAMBLERS?

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Stupidasole
To us it is. Not to the majority of people/ potential new customers. That is the truth user. If you are into nerd culture sure. But if you arent its just another generic fantasy game.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@whereismyname
I think that's your PoW, not generally shared by GW's target audience, teens and their wallets, aka parents.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Soft_member
Like AoS is right now?

Emberburn
Emberburn

@TechHater

calling someone a grandpa when he is championing new things

fuck off you thinly veiled grognard, no one likes you and barely anyone liked fantasy tabletop

the free guilds are getting an update next, and after them the elf factions

AoS is shaping up to be a great fucking setting, with multiple worlds to fight for

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@whereismyname
If I see hige armoured warriors in gold fighting hulking red armoured warriors?
That sounds like WoW.
hating on KoW because it's not shiny enough

StonedTime
StonedTime

As a complete outsider, age of Sigman has a strictly inferior aesthetic to late WHFB and all of GW's games have a strictly inferior aesthetic to their products out of the 80s and 90s.

This opinion is objective, universal fact.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@kizzmybutt
Its certainly more distinctive than medieval fantasy with orcs and humans. I loved the fantasy setting but giant golden armoured dudes stands out more than medieval guys going at it with orcs. To s certain point both are generic but one stands out more than the other.

@SomethingNew
Its more an observation and *something* worked if GW is happy with how its selling.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Emberburn
literally nothing but an empty void to project yourself into
Archaon the hedgehog really makes this post a work of art.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Emberburn
But why? Why are you shilling AoS on Veeky Forums of all places? Are you the guy who bough GW shares? Redshirt?

Yeah. Take a hike, geezer.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@VisualMaster
Honestly, where modern fantasy's been going lately, golden armored dudes on big animals just blends into the crowd; they're not blazing a trail, they're following along.
Which worked pretty well for Fantasy for a long time, so I'm not gonna knock it, but they ain't special or stand-out.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@TalkBomber
sounds like WoW

Sure but its more positive association than medieval humans fighting orcs. That picture you posted by itself catches my eye immediately more than any coloured fantasy warhamner poster could. Hell look at LoL which dold mainly off its colourful art.

Im not hating KoW. But KoW type games relies on taking people from the current market of consumers. AoS was trying to get NEW customers. More of the same wont work trying that.

takes2long
takes2long

@VisualMaster
medieval
I imagine Kirby's fuckup not killing them is good enough for them.

massdebater
massdebater

@VisualMaster
Still not buying it. Ask someone, whether golden knightdood or pompus guy with a big sword are more generic. You might be surprised.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@Soft_member
Its no creation of the wheel user or revolutionary. I guess the best way I can try to say is: Old Fantasy is dated. It isnt with what we see now required in the gaming market where shiny and colourful sells. Not rough and bleak.

Yes they are following trends while also trying their own spin as to appeal to a wider audience to try to expand their customers. New stuff sells with their high fantasy stuff. Old fantasy lotr style doesnt. Ifmts bern done. So GW is now catching up.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Evil_kitten
But can it keep it?

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@SniperGod
God forbid we expect a shred of artistic integrity from a company.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@massdebater
Tabletop gamer? Golden knightdood.
Non gamer? Medieval dood. Too much clash with D&D and other rpg in the non tabletoo consumers mind.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Soft_member
This.

farquit
farquit

@Nojokur
But it's not medieval, bucko. See @takes2long
Unless they're history buff, they're probably not seen something like it before.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@RumChicken
Who knows? If Gw can fix the accessibility of the lore maybe.

@Ignoramus
Well I feel tabletop gamers standards are too high due to familiarity of more restricted times where creativity was prime. Cant expect integrity in cultures where its dying rapidly even in art.

FastChef
FastChef

@farquit
user as stupid as the average consumer is, they see sword and that kind of clothing, they likely will assume that. You dont need to be a buff to identify that.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Evil_kitten
That picture you posted by itself catches my eye immediately more than any coloured fantasy warhamner poster could
That is 100% a matter of personal taste and you know it.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Illusionz
As much as we and other nerdy gamers knew warhammer fantasy, to an outsider it was near indistinguishable from other fantasy games.

Actually, I've always found this not to be the case.

Generally speaking the people I've known who aren't into fantasy on the whole can easily distinguish between the two. I've met a lot of people who say they'd be much more willing to play a fantasy game that looks like Warhammer than one like Warcraft. Hell, I literally met one for the first time yesterday. Guy barely had any knowledge of the setting beyond what he'd seen in videos of TW: Warhammer and he still knew there was a difference.

I think you severely underestimate the ability of people to distinguish between different styles.

farquit
farquit

@Deadlyinx
It isn't the accessibility of the lore, it's the lack of substance.
All you have is a wow ripoff except the elves are bigger cunts and not as sexy.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@FastChef
So he's a generic because he has a sword? Flawless logic.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@FastChef
as stupid as the average consumer
So you ARE the investor. Was wondering.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@viagrandad
Static rolls are in no way worse than S/T charts

They really are, because they remove any pretense that the game is simulating interaction between models. Your target's states are irrelevant, which is bad.

Furthermore, AoS doesn't actually simplify anything. You still roll to hit, to wound, and to save. The process isn't any faster or more elegant, it's just less interesting because, unlike in better games, there's no interaction between the models in a combat.

Even Warmahordes, where everything is simplified and fine-tuned as much as possible, is careful to keep the simulationist side of the game intact. When you roll to hit, you aim to roll higher than your opponent's DEF. When you roll to wound, you aim to roll higher than their ARM. This encourages you to think about what targets you're attacking with what (or how to shut down attacking units), how best to distribute buffs, etc. Static rolls are bad from both a mechanical and simulationist perspective.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@BunnyJinx
Bright colours tend to attract more so than dark and gritty. WoW and LoL were fuelled by this, LoL more so. user I am not talking about OUR demograph, the old school nerds. I am talking the wider market, regular consumers who may not know what even D&D is. To them, yes bright colours do atteact more attention. Like atteactive characters. Is it 100% absolute? No. But its certainly a positive trend.

@Garbage Can Lid
Generally speaking the people I've known who aren't into fantasy on the whole can easily distinguish between the two.

Ok that is a fair point. But im going to go out on a limb here and assume the people you spoke with are video game fans and/or already have a passing knowledge of the nerd culture. Take the TW guy. He is involved with the setting as he plays a gane of it. But I am discussing people who are fresh completely to this area. Like: Wtf is warcraft tier.

To them medieval dark doesnt work. Orcs, dread knights, soldiers with swords. Its another lord of the rings to them.

Only exception is Dark souls but thats the video game medium which ours makes look mainstream.

TreeEater
TreeEater

The fact that you made this thread is great evidence to the contrary.

WebTool
WebTool

@Dreamworx
@whereismyname
@Evil_kitten
Fantasy didn't have enough eye-catching interesting designs

Bull.

Fantasy has always had the most iconic bigmclarge huge armoured bad guys on the scene.

WHFB is extremely distinct from most fantasy

eGremlin
eGremlin

@BinaryMan
The clothing as well user.

@Raving_Cute
Investor? What?

Your average consumer IS pretty dumb. How do you think we sell most products to people? How do you think people have structured an entire section of business and psychology out of it?

Its not easy to becopme filthy rich as an entreoreneur. But it is easy to understand the mindset of cobsumers.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Emberfire
AOS players are sick and tired of them so they'll kill the game sooner than later

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Stupidasole
Josh Reynolds deserves to get shut down.

askme
askme

@Deadlyinx
But I am discussing people who are fresh completely to this area. Like: Wtf is warcraft tier.

Those people will never play, ever. They will simply never get into the game. It won't happen, targeting them is futile. Someone who doesn't grow up with some liking of nerdy stuff will not get into a game like this. They at least need to be the kind of person willing to watch something like GoT to get into any fantasy tabletop game (and you best fucking believe that WHFB will appeal to fans of that kind of fantasy more than Warcraft or AoS).

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@WebTool
To us whop have working knowledge of different settings? Sure.

But most people without that see another dread knight design like pic related. That said I fucking love chaos warriors more than any other. But we as tabletop gamers are not the norm.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@StonedTime
@Illusionz
@Stark_Naked

damn fantasy grognards are fucking pathetic

take. a. shower.

Techpill
Techpill

@Deadlyinx
Are you forgetting the empire's soldiers are dressed in bright uniforms?
Where is the dark gritty medieval chainmail soldier dueling orcs? All I see is pike and shot with feathered caps.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Deadlyinx
So much cringe

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Deadlyinx
I can expect whatever I want, I just rarely receive it. The commodification of all forms of artistic expression seems doomed to destroy art, even if this represents an incredibly minor instance of it.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Playboyize
if you don't like my feces you're a smelly old man

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Poker_Star
I would say it's pretty damn easy to tell something like your image and that other guy's apart.

Morgoth looks like a generic dark lord. The Chaos Warrior has enough elements grounded in reality to make it really quite different from anything you'd find in the majority of fantasy. When you get down to it, it's realistic armor with a bit of viking flaire and a great deal of heavy metal applied.

I'd say this more realistic, grounded tone would actually go over much better with 'normies' than the AoS type shit. AoS really does just look like Warcraft. Warhammer looks like something the immense GoT fanbase could get into.

We're living in the heyday of gritty, grim fantasy. If GW had just marketed their shit and made the game actually possible to start as a newcomer WHFB would be swimming in shekels.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Emberfire
Fuck off GW, your new setting is trash

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@askme
GoT

Let me be devils advocate. The appeal of GoT is a low fantasy setting with somewhat relatable characters. It has dragons but lacks gandalf tier magic, orcs and other stereotypical features. It also attracts a gigantic audience due to this and its medium. But then the first obstacle to that is Vidya. Introducing Vidya which broadens our competition even more, by the time they reached WHF, i still think they would think "Oh D&D".

its not worth trying to attract these people
Why not? Even if you get 2% of people who watched it that is 2% more people than the competition. You got them first and they are yours. You didnt have to cannibalize off the niche customer base already established. You got new ones.

But id argue whf or aos have much of a chance drawing that crowd but for different reasons

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@Playboyize
I'm probably cleaner and better groomed than you. GW's older designs were simpler, more effective, and elegant; their only shortcomings come down to inferior manufacturing.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Playboyize
Imagine being this buttblasted for a stillborn setting.

takes2long
takes2long

@StonedTime
Morgoth looks like a generic dark lord. The Chaos Warrior has enough elements grounded in reality to make it really quite different from anything you'd find in the majority of fantasy.

If I try to describe a chaos warrior to someone who plays nothing but video games, I literally say "Think a Hell Knight or Mini sauron". They get that in a tick. When I show them they respond with something relatively agreeable or "Oh yeah I see".

Again to us, we can see both pictures at a distance and say "AHA yes thats a warhamner chaos warrior". But for consumers now who register info at blinding speed and dont focus unless it stands out, both are just more of the same.

I woukd like to add, im not saying the AoS design is the missing link. Ofc it has issues. I am however saying by its visuaks it is more dgustinguishable and attention drawing, at a glance, than warhamner fantasy to an uninformed consumer of nerd culture. Getting one, just one from outside the nerd demograph in means that it has succeeded. Where to others whf has a higher risk of being brushed aside as just more if the same ASSUMING you dont do any research and are onky looking at it first time ever.

I dont know the full details of GW but I am certain its success sans GW not being completely stupid for once, was due in part to the new design.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@Fuzzy_Logic
Let me be devils advocate. The appeal of GoT is a low fantasy setting with somewhat relatable characters. It has dragons but lacks gandalf tier magic, orcs and other stereotypical features. It also attracts a gigantic audience due to this and its medium. But then the first obstacle to that is Vidya. Introducing Vidya which broadens our competition even more, by the time they reached WHF, i still think they would think "Oh D&D".

All these, IMO, are reasons why AoS would be less effective at pulling from this crowd than WHFB.

hy not? Even if you get 2% of people who watched it that is 2% more people than the competition.

I'm not saying you shouldn't avoid trying to grab people who have casual exposure to fantasy through stuff like GoT or LotR. You just won't grab anyone who has NO exposure whatsoever.

Someone who has never even liked the most casual of fantasy will never, ever spend money on WHFB or AoS.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@haveahappyday
There is no simulationist angle to AoS. It's got 4 pages of rules ffs, it's clearly aimed at providing quick, easy way to play. WFB's biggest failing was that it was essentially a historical game system that they slapped magic and monsters on, and it made for a very slow, very repetitive gameplay of square-pushing. Yes, it's realistic that the big ol' blocks had to wheel and spend half movement just crossing a fence, but it was also slowing movement down to a crawl among other things. The game was very 80's in rules design, and it showed. IT appealed to the grogs, and no one else.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Good things about AoS:
start collecting boxes
very cheap starter sets that escalate
Alarielle's thighs
tit trees
Bad things about AoS:
everything else

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Only thing I like about AoS is the Steampunk Dwarves

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@takes2long
think a hellknight or mini sauron
when describing a big evil viking
What?

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Sharpcharm
There is no simulationist angle to AoS.

But I thought AoS was about making your dudes(!) and having fun with them?

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Spazyfool
how about the magnificently helmeted slayers?

Techpill
Techpill

@GoogleCat
T-THEY GONNA GET RID OF 40K
INSTEAD OF JUST MOVING THE STORY FORWARD A TINY BIT
lel

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Emberfire
it's cartoon bullshit
open any of the setting book and try to read off a name of a faction or place without laughing

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@takes2long
AoS hasn't really been a success. It was stillborn upon release, and then there was a surge of players buying old WHFB models that were on the way to the pyre. Now it's flagging again.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Spazyfool
Their suits are too much as are their jump packs, but they already do have ships, helicopters, and flamethrowers so they less jumped the shark as much as they just crashed into it.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@takes2long
and fall 2016, just after the release of the GHB
Right where WHFB was durring the 8th edition

Methshot
Methshot

@Techpill
Moment it stops selling that's what will happen.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Harmless_Venom
Big evil viking visually and to the ear of others assumes to most people FUS RO DAH vikings from skyrim. The chaos warrior design is more fitting to sauron, just smaller. Demon/hell knight also gives the image if a big spiky armour clad warrior. Which is exactly the image of a chaos warrior.

@TreeEater
wont grab people with NO exposure whatso ever

I will agree to a certain degree. I am trying to put forward the notion that, due to AoS visual design (at a glance) which is fitting to other more popular mediums (LoL) that you have a better chance in the rare case the GoT fan also knows vidya, of getting them in than fantasy due to its art style.

Anyone who dug through fantasy proper knows the setting is filled with love and attention. But by then they are a customer anyway. Ifa the initiation I feel fantasy struggled.

Lack of marketing didnt help but it badly needed a reboot of some form. Maybe not AoS but keeping the OW as is was not only stagnant for the fans but even worse for GW sales figures.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Methshot
Of course but that's my point - Fantasy got nuked because it wasn't selling well, and got replaced by Sigmarines. 40k IS and has been selling well, so all they're gonna do with it is move things forward a bit. No need to nuke it entirely.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@AwesomeTucker
It was top 4 in sales 2016. Lets say that it may have been due to the pyre but do you really think that was the primary reason?

its flagging again

We dont have a gw report to confim that. But, and I only heard this, supposedly before ET WHF was selling less stock than the hobby utilities. I doubt AoS has hit even that of a low assuming you are right.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@Evil_kitten
t.amerifat who like his superhero-like cartoons
AoS was trying to get NEW customers.
So they are trying to catch the WoW audience while most mainstream fantasy today are dark pseudo-medieval settings and aesthetics (Dark Souls, GoT and Witcher).

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@CouchChiller
But, and I only heard this, supposedly before ET WHF was selling less stock than the hobby utilities.
https://icv2.com/articles/games/view/26216/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-lines-spring-2013

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Harmless_Venom
t.amerifat who like his superhero-like cartoons

I am a Euro. I am also basing my discussion on monumental succeses like LoL and, funny you mentioned, Warcraft.

@SomethingNew
That was 2013, riughly just at the ET time. What about before then? As stupid as GW has been, there must have been a financial reason they nuked fantasy and I can only assume $$$.

most settings are dark

I will concede there. You are absolutely right. But keeping the WHF aesthetic makes it harder to compete with them I think. Especially due to the D&D association. Dark Souls I loved because it was gritty low fantasy. WHF is high fantasy.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@w8t4u
But those are the worst.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@StonedTime
So why didn't they fix fantasy instead of pull that dumb shit?

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Raving_Cute
This. They're all the fucking same. Space Marines = Spartans = Samus = Fallout power armor. I

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Skullbone
Eh, beats generic boring medieval soldiers and orcs with muted colors and bad teeth.
this is sarcasm if you couldn't tell

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@Skullbone
Except none of those share the myriad similarities between sigmanrines and spessmarines.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@StrangeWizard

you posted the most generic trash possible

it's been done millions of times in fantasy, at least dudes in power armor is somewhat uncommon

so yes, you have inhuman levels of shit taste

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Fried_Sushi
big guy
in power armor
have guns
are doomguy ripoffs
They seem all too alike.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@MPmaster
at least first person shooter protagonists are uncommon
Are you daft?

TechHater
TechHater

@Methshot
Moment it stops selling GW closes it's doors and cut their losses, if you actually think AOS will keep GW afloat you're more delusional than fantasy fags

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Spamalot
I am also basing my discussion on monumental succeses like LoL
LoL became popular because of gameplay.
That was 2013, riughly just at the ET time.
It was year before ET.
and I can only assume $$$.
And you are right, GW just wanted to attract more younger audience.
But keeping the WHF aesthetic makes it harder to compete with them I think.
GW is too small to compete with any popular video game or tv-show. They are at different categories, but the point was that dark grounded fantasy as sub-genre are popular as fuck right now.
Dark Souls
gritty low fantasy
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@SomethingNew
Did you even think before posting?

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Spamalot
That was 2013, riughly just at the ET time. What about before then? As stupid as GW has been, there must have been a financial reason they nuked fantasy and I can only assume $$$.

It was $$$ (or rather £££), but the sad truth is that is likely had nothing to do with WHFB underperforming, because it wasn't. It has to do with GW as a whole underperforming during this period.

This was when GW's horrendous pricing and increasingly poor models were hemorrhaging them customers. They had to do something, and their retarded CEO of the time decided it had to be something big and flashy, rather than just returning to sane business practices. So Fantasy got the axe, because it would be insane to try something this risky with 40K.

In the end it has done nothing for sales. What has done a lot for sales is Rountree being a fucking BOSS and reintroducing all the good business practices that made GW successful, with a side portion of board games for the booming board game market and models and armies that 40K fanboys have always jerked off to the thought of owning, like Primarchs.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@MPmaster
it's been done millions of times in fantasy
Go on, post all Renaissance soldiers in fantasy.
Meanwhile Sigmarines looks like generic paladins/human elite soldiers in golden/silver armor

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@MPmaster
How can a man have taste this bad?

And still accuse others?

Are you clinically retarded? Honest question.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Fried_Sushi
Spartans
Kidnapped at young age & genetically augmented
Space Marines
Taken at a young age & augmented
Samus
Chozo DNA at young age

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Fried_Sushi
Orly?

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@StrangeWizard
Holy fuck.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@Flameblow
Spartans are basically space marines x doom guy, but that's it.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@MPmaster
What power armour guys in fantasy
You know what let's scrap the fantasy elements and add more sci fi

So you don't like fantasy genre eh? What the fuck are you doing here?

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@BinaryMan
LoL became popular because of gameplay.

Yes but its artstyle what drew people in. Indeed its skins and insane fanservicey designs got them millions.

dark souls
What about it isnt gritty low fantasy?

@StrangeWizard
I have no doubt Rountree is Gw's second coming of Christ and has performed miracles for the company and its PR. I do know AoS had a pitiful performance upon its inception but then why did it see a marked boost in 2016?

Yes you are correct Kirby ran it into the gutter but I assume it wasnt just Kirby who decided to give Fantasy the axe. Beaides the company sinking at the time there had to be something in the figures which made them think it was worth the risk.

askme
askme

@StrangeWizard
I don't get what this is supposed to prove.

Bidwell
Bidwell

Let me show you my problem with AoS.

Fundamentally, I don't really have a problem with the direction or style, but the fundamental lack of quality control for both the art and the writing is what's really killing it.

It doesn't have to be as generic and worthless as it is, but they just don't want to make it better.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@StrangeWizard
Slap a dounle handed rifle on right guy and its Master Chief

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@SomethingNew
Yes but its artstyle what drew people in.
[citation needed]
What about it isnt gritty low fantasy?
game about killing daemons and gods all the time
low fantasy
@SomethingNew
I have no doubt Rountree is Gw's second coming of Christ
Top kek.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@SomethingNew
Beaides the company sinking at the time there had to be something in the figures which made them think it was worth the risk.

You're underestimating the stupidity of GW's board at the time.

There was technically something in the models that made them think this, and it was "they're not 40K." Other than that it was very obviously just an attempt to do something loud and flashy, because the people in charge only understood loud and flashy. To them this was the kind of thing that works, and Fantasy was a better test subject than 40K.

askme
askme

@Bidwell
Can't argue with the maps but I like a lot of the art.

writing

user we are talking Warhammer. Ok 6th edition and before had some wonderfully written pieces. Genuinely good like the merchant getting eaten by the naked ghoul woman in sylvania. Haunting.

But everything after? Was like reading 40k mat ward tier fluff. Especially 7th edition warriors of chaos. Was cringey. ET was like watchjing a goddamn train fall off the rails.

Inmate
Inmate

@BinaryMan
LoL became popular because of gameplay.
And waifus fap bait, never forget the waifus fap bait

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@BunnyJinx
Did you?
Spartans are genetically enhanced super soldiers, Samus is a genetically enhanced super soldier, Sphess Mehrens are genetically enhanced super soldiers, stormcast magically enhanced.
Same shit, different asshole, different coat of paint.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@TurtleCat
Rountree has done wonders for GW. Especially after Kirby.

Dark Souls presentation is pretty low fantasy with fantastical elements.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Bidwell
H-how does one come by that incredible Google map?

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

I'm still waiting for this to come out.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@SniperWish
Rountree has done wonders for GW.
For GW profits, not for quality.
Dark Souls presentation is pretty low fantasy
Where the fuck DS have low fantasy except armor design?

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@Inmate
That was my point when I said artstyle. Hell look at Overwatch which sold mainly on artstyle and character design. Also its porn but gw lacks the fanbase to produce high quality stuff of that.

girlDog
girlDog

@askme
That half Eldar are canon and so is LCB.

likme
likme

@Harmless_Venom
the problem with extreme characterization for a game like warhammer is that it takes away the Your Dudes aspect of the game

hairygrape
hairygrape

@Harmless_Venom
artstyle
Aimed for childrens (aka largest customer base).
Also, he talked about fap-bait, not about artstyle.

Techpill
Techpill

@Fuzzy_Logic
Its architecture, its feel. You fight fantastical elements but without high fantasy padding. Its just big demons and dragons or abominations. Visceral and sharp. Not mad flashy.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@TurtleCat
game about killing daemons and gods all the time
Acknowledging Gwyn as a god
You are a deceived fool and the daemons are little more than beasts born of fire

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Harmless_Venom
It's sad really.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Fuzzy_Logic
For GW profits, not for quality.

Kinda agree with this.

I like Rountree simply because he's steered GW back on course in terms of marketing and sales. He's reintroduced good bargain bundles and the like.

But I'll never buy anything GW makes at the moment because all the models are bad and all the games are bad. GW games are less masochistic with him and the helm but they're still of poor quality.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Fuzzy_Logic
You know guys, WHFB always had different degrees of high & low fantasy depending on faction. Empire is rather low fantasy + some demigryphs & magic. Dwarfs focused way more on technology though they have runes. Otherwise, guys like Daemons are nearly entirely high fantasy.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

Neither Dark Souls nor WHFB are low fantasy.

They are DARK fantasy.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@hairygrape
You need s good artstyle for good fap bait.

Look at Battleborn if you want the opposite example.

@likme
Wasnt WHF built on extreme characterization? Look at Goblins. Sadistic, evil conniving bastards. Yet we got Skaranik the beloved goblin warlord of the eight peaks. Little gets in the way if Your Dudes aspect barring a setting which makes a reality tv show seem like high end literature.

farquit
farquit

@Techpill
Its architecture
Hight fantasy, except probably Temple of Fire and Undead Burg.
its feel.
The game feels like a legend-quest.
but without high fantasy padding.
Such as..?
Its just big demons and dragons or abominations.
Yeah totally low fantasy

Playboyize
Playboyize

@BlogWobbles
I think the Blood Bowl sculpts have been exceptional quality.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Emberfire
I don't know why anyone would like a setting based off of retconning and destroying a previous setting, pissing everyone off, and making a story where the whole motif is "Buzz Lightyear marines fighting against evil edgy chaos but LOL FUCK YOU CHAOS ALWAYS WINS" that features incredibly simple gameplay and a cartoonish art style that both are so far gone from what the previous series was known for.

@Evil_kitten
setting is flat out superior and unique
gothic medieval renaissance world of dark fantasy and humor serving as an homage to tolkien and british punk culture where straggling forces of the virtuous good hold their own against hordes of vicious evil
space world with knight marines where chaos always wins so why even bother just buy our toys

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Firespawn
You are a deceived fool
Should I said "god-like creature"?
born of fire
Yes, very low fantasy.
@Need_TLC
You need s good artstyle for good fap bait.
And cartoonish artstyle aren't necessary for it.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@SniperWish
Yeah. 40k has some naughty bits but if we had the fanbase quantity of OW we would be swimming in dark elf sexiness.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Emberfire
I've liked the setting, the art direction, and the sigmarines, from day 1.... I just can't stand the garbage rules of AoS.
I got a boatload of Sigmarines on the dirt-cheap from ebay when the starter set first came out, but put them on square bases, knowing I would proxy them as something. Currently I use them as warriors of chaos in Warhammer 6th and Basileans in Kings of War

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Burnblaze
british punk culture

British punk culture died in the 90's, man. WHF no longer had a place to go back to.

idontknow
idontknow

@RumChicken
Cartoonish artstyle sells and goes under the radar. Start going realistic and the person may as well look at actual porn. Its a tight problem artistically but there is a reason lol, anime and overwatch have so much popular porn and not being realistic is one of them.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@RumChicken
born of fire & salt
Is it a ham?

Evilember
Evilember

@RumChicken
Should I said "god-like creature"?
Yes please, I will never acknowledge Gwyn as a divinity
Yes, very low fantasy.
I was only arguing about Gwyn I also believe DS is low fantasy

FastChef
FastChef

@Burnblaze
The new fluff doesnt have chaos always wins. The good guys are currently counter attacking. 40k however had chaos fan wank to the point its setting the fanbase in a fiery rage.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@TreeEater
So why didn't they fix fantasy instead of pull that dumb shit?
Did you ever consider that AoS was their idea of fixing it?

askme
askme

@VisualMaster
Why dark elves though?
Why not a reverse trap shadow warrior tsundere?

Methshot
Methshot

@VisualMaster
Its a british company user. they have no idea what sexy is.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Bidwell
That map on the right fairly screams

oh shit I forgot to do the map and it's an hour before deadline

WebTool
WebTool

@Evil_kitten
because the setting is flat out superior and more unique.
Either you're mentally retarded and don't know how to write a good setting at all and are an action-orientated twelve year old, and thus not worth responding to beyond insulting: or a troll. Regardless of the options, you're a waste of space.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Illusionz
I did but then slapped myself.
If someone is sick you don't kill them and hang up their entrails, you take them to a doctor.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@idontknow
Start going realistic and the person may as well look at actual porn.
Say ot to Withcer, it doesn't look like actual porn really harm game success.
Its a tight problem artistically but there is a reason lol, anime and overwatch have so much popular porn and not being realistic is one of them.
So as superhero movies, but does it mean they are really good?
@FastChef
The sigmarines are currently counter attacking.
fix

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@Deadlyinx
They're worse than space marines actually. In the books Stormcast Eternals not only feel fear, but run away and die screaming when broken by Chaos.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@LuckyDusty
More like

Fantasy is sick
but we can rebuild him
make him stronger
faster
better
so get Doctor Frankenstein over here STAT

SniperGod
SniperGod

@Skullbone
genetically engineered bio-soldiers in advanced
ability-enhancing power armor fighting hordes of alien terrors for the human empire
genetically engineered bio-soldiers in advanced ability-enhancing power armor fighting hordes of alien terrors for the human empire
a bounty hunter. are you retarded? samus is not a faction or a race.
genetically engineered bio-soldiers in advanced ability-enhancing power armor fighting hordes of communist terrors for the American empire

Wow, so different.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Evil_kitten
Problem is they made him weaker, slower, and worse.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@takes2long
Spring 17 again shows AoS falling off the top 5
This is an important point. People always say GW was right killing fantasy because it didn't sell enough. But it's not just that, fantasy was selling ok, it was just looking bad in comparison with 40k. AoS was made to force fantasy into selling as much as 40k and it failed. It always sold much much worse and as soon as it got a release hiatus it fell off the top 5. AoS failed, yes it is selling better then fantasy, but it is also requiring a far far greater effort from gw and i doubt the profit they made from it is as much as they expected.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Deadlyinx
Jesus, this is retarded. He states exactly why they're the same - both are former humans tortured by an extensive and painful process that removes their humanity to fight chaos - and then somehow rationalizes 'BUT THEY'RE ACTUALLY TOTALLY DIFFERENT BECAUSE THE STORMCAST ARE MAGIC NOT SCIENCE!'

Awful. Kill me please.

FastChef
FastChef

@cum2soon
Lolno, just AoS suffering from the same problem as WHFB in 8th edition, lack of new content. After first year of AoS GW was forced to start "Year of Space Marines" to fix their profits (and it's worked)

askme
askme

@Methnerd
Don't worry user, the sword of time has pierced your skin already.
Soon it will smite you, like it will smite all of us.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@whereismyname
So what you're saying is that you're a fucking child?

See this is the problem with GW and the modern market now. Our new up and coming generation has been fucking poisoned by cape shit and they can't even keep an attention span to notice something that isn't some childish power fantasy.

Power fantasy as a concept needs to be dragged into a fucking hole and die like the cancer it is. Along with the people who cling to it.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Emberfire
I genuinely and unironically prefer the AOS setting

I genuinely and unironically prefer AOS's models

I genuinely and unironically prefer AOS's tone

The AOS rules are a flaming turd, and the general's handbook may have put out the fire, but it's still shit.

The stormcast, however, make for excellent conversions into better systems.

I don't think I will ever play AoS, but my stormcast-conversions will make a showing in other, better, games all the time.

(These are not MY stormcast conversions, these are obviously from an earlier thread on /tg/)

farquit
farquit

@Methnerd
In all fairness he does actually explain how the tone is fundamentally different. Granted that can be accounted for by noting that the tones of the settings are vastly different, and they are space marines adapted to the new tone, but he did not blame it on just science v magic... that's a bit of a straw man.

5mileys
5mileys

@StonedTime
THEY'RE JUST FUUUUUUUCKIIING SPACE MARINES REEEEEEEE

Techpill
Techpill

@StonedTime
AOS has some great models but you're right about the rules.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@StonedTime
(These are not MY stormcast conversions, these are obviously from an earlier thread on /tg/)
These isn't conversions you idiot.
@farquit
and they are space marines adapted to the new tone,
Where the fuck it's different tone if they use Ultramarines/GreyKnights story again and again

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@StonedTime
Ogre kingdoms?

Soft_member
Soft_member

@RumChicken
Not on our spectrum maybe not. But to others or who are interested in money, they have been a disgustingly succesful franchise.

@SniperWish
you're a fucking child

user if I were a child I would be in a much better place. I fucking wish.

I am just explaining the modern market, or what little I have, in how it functions. I am not saying its good or bad and quite frankly, unless you and I are in position of authorities, we can't really say anything is good or bad as figures are what speaks to the marketplace and those who provide for it. Not rhetoric. Sadly.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@Poker_Star
dread knight
posts Morgoth

I think this user is the generic fucktards he's talking about being incapable of telling settings apart. He's not speaking from experience, he's speaking about himself.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Emberfire
I've said so since day one

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Soft_member
But to others or who are interested in money, they have been a disgustingly succesful franchise.
Yes, they are profitable, yet still doesn't mean it's a good quality.
I am just explaining the modern market,
So what?
I am not saying its good or bad
Except you are doing it, by using it as argument to defend AoS

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@viagrandad
Dread knight is a catch all term for that big armoured spiky guy who you can't see his face. As I said before its easy for you and I to distinguish it but not for someone who has 0 idea who Morgoth or a Chaos Warrior is. Dread knight immediately brings up the image I described above.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Emberburn
except you are doing it
Its good in that it sells. Not good as in "this is high quality expertly crafted with years of love". It IS good in that, its selling (or did sell, we will have to see with GW financial report). On that metric it absolutely is. I am not saying its good or bad in the context of the quality when compared to other more naunced settings.

I explained the market mainly because you said

you're a fucking child

The attention span of the market has become so short that they NEED flash. At least from a commercial stand point. Just because I am explaining it does not mean I like the way the market is.

Soft_member
Soft_member

Stormcasts are literally chaos warriors but for order.

Cant really see what the fuss is all about.
I just wish there was more variety on them, like actually different helm and armours.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@FastChef
That's exactly what i was saying.

idontknow
idontknow

@Harmless_Venom
If I'm playing 8th or 9th age or Kings of war, they're ogre kingdoms. If I'm playing 6th or 7th, because ogre kingdoms suck in those editions, they're minotaurs and dragon ogre support for beasts of chaos.
@GoogleCat
Check the base size and shape buddy.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@farquit
No, I'm constantly told that there's more there; every time I say there's no lore, I'm told to read novels or battletomes.
The problem is that 'novels and battletomes' aren't as accessible as diehard fans think they are, and constantly referring to them in a passive-aggressive manner is a pretty terrible sales technique.
(Though, given that they're used to people not willing to give the setting a chance, who'll just repost the shitty maps from the early releases, I get why they've given up on trying. That doesn't excuse GW not putting in effort, though.)

Lunatick
Lunatick

@idontknow
Check the base size and shape buddy.
It's called rebasing, kid.

girlDog
girlDog

@GoogleCat
Where the fuck it's different tone if they use Ultramarines/GreyKnights story again and again
Do you not understand the difference between plot and tone? 40k is grimderp, depressing, sometimes metal, but mostly hopeless. AoS is children's saturday cartoon he-man hopeful but never ending conflict. Ultramarines and Grey Knights are not a hopeful and bright light standing against the dark to defend the innocent... they're another flavor genocidal fascist ubermench who only get cast as the "good guys" because the rest of the setting is even worse. Ton =/= Plot.

Inmate
Inmate

@Emberfire
Soon

Playboyize
Playboyize

@StonedTime
I genuinely and unironically prefer the AOS setting

Jesus Christ what is wrong with you. AoS doesn't even have a real setting.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@girlDog
40k is grimderp, depressing, sometimes metal, but mostly hopeless.
Except Realm of Ultramar, which was described as paradise.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@idontknow
I'm in the middle of converting a liberator prime into a tyrant myself. It's a gnoblar that found the armor of one that was lost in time and space and then was tortured to death by the green fucker who now uses a system of pulleys and levers to control his battlesuit for lack of a better word.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Soft_member
Incorrect! Stormcasts are Soulgrinders of Order modeled as rivals to chaos warriors.

This is an important distinction as unkillable daemons vs unkillable daemons OF ORDER is literally the most boring narrative in existence. This is coming from a daemons player, daemons vs daemons is super boring fluffwise because the entire conflict is without value.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@TurtleCat
No, the only people who are going to know about the term "dread knight" are those familiar with WOWcraft or D&D style fantasy. The average person ain't going to have a fucking clue what you're talking about. The accurate description is big demon viking in black plate. You need to describe it simply because buzzwords don't work if they're already niche.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@girlDog
Tau are the cut and dry good guys of 40k and people hate them for it.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Methnerd
According to him, Space Marines are indoctrinated before they had a life while Sigmarines had a life before that. To him, the Sigmarines have more emotions & personal connections. He also mention that Space Marines hate Xenos while Sigmarines ally with dragons & lizards.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@Soft_member
Stormcasts are literally chaos warriors but for order.

Well, not really. Stormcast are souls forged into divine warriors after death, Chaos Warriors are humans who have achieved esteem in the eyes of the gods and been given mutations and A++ badass armour. Chaos Warriors do not actually return after death, Stormcast do. Chaos Warriors aren't assembled into not!Chapters, Stormcast are.

Also, Chaos Warriors are incredibly well designed, whereas Stormcast look goofy as fuck.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@New_Cliche
Or as I said in my other post, "Mini Sauron" and LOTR has that much appeal.

big demon viking in black plate

That is just going to confuse someone who has no clue even more! Viking = Skyrim. And outwardly there is nothing viking about a Chaos Warrior. Norse sure, but not the Warriors.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@New_Cliche
Most people I know who hear the words 'dread knight' will assume you're referring to death knights or some knock-off version of them and basically that you don't know what you're talking about.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@JunkTop
This shit again.
Each time you kill a stormcast you literally kill a portion of Sigmar. You are literally killing the God itself.
Also, they get more inhuman each reforging.
I think they are not bad per se, I just hate how they are the new posterchild and the sole focus of Aos narrative.
@Boy_vs_Girl
Of course there are differences, or they would have been terrible.
But the base concept is Sigmar chaos warrior. From the concepot, you then build a more complex narrative.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Playboyize
Sometimes less is more. In a post-comicon-2.0 age where suddenly every writer is obsessed with needless world-building exposition about the most inane of minutia to feed the shared-universe-autists building the universe wikis, a bare-bones skeleton that serves its purpose to justify the existence of cool looking factions and why they might fight, without overstepping its bounds in limiting "your dudes" is genuinely refreshing.

I just wish the rules weren't utter shit, but they are utter shit.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@DeathDog
Each time you kill a stormcast you literally kill a portion of Sigmar. You are literally killing the God itself.
Except only Archaon able to kill them.
Also, they get more inhuman each reforging.
So what?

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Fuzzy_Logic
without overstepping its bounds in limiting "your dudes" is genuinely refreshing.
So you need just empty space.
Also
SCE
cool looking factions

likme
likme

@PackManBrainlure
Yeah, the same way Hitler described his vision of Berlin as a paradise. They are still Nazis, which in any franchise, makes you the bad guy, and only a viable ally when the other bad guys are even worse.
@whereismyname
And I often get mad at Tau-hating 40k fans for not getting the tongue-in-cheek joke-ness of their setting and taking it too seriously.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@likme
Yeah, the same way Hitler described his vision of Berlin as a paradise.
Incorrect.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Stark_Naked
Except only Archaon able to kill them.
No? every time you kill a stormcast, het gets zapped to Sigmar again and he is reforged, aka rebuit and infused with Sigmar's energy again, so basically every time a sc dies Sigmar gets weaker.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@DeathDog
Of course there are differences, or they would have been terrible.

They are terrible.

And they share more in common with Marines than Chaos Warriors.

CWs are mortal fighters who grow more powerful the more godly favour they attain, until they earn that badass and generally somewhat unique armour of theirs.

Stormcast are, like Space Marines, valorous and skilled primitives spirited away from their homes by a celestial power and altered into supersoldiers in bigass standardized armour by a big golden god-emperor. They are then organized into Space Marine chapters in all but name and are referred to as their god-emperor's angels of vengeance. They are fucking Space Marines.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Spamalot
Is space the only thing I need in a setting? No. Is a little breathing room from the world-building-wiki-autists necessary at this point? Hell yeah.

And yeah, the factions are cool-looking. I loved the old world, I still play warhammer, and I hate the crap that AoS tries to pass off as rules, but even I have to admit their new line of models are cool. I'm not going to pay their outrageous prices, except for when I can get ebay bits from a starter box or something, but yeah... cool models and cool factions.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@DeathDog
..they get more inhuman each reforging.
That is literally the fluff for soulgrinders. Every time they die and come back they become less Murderbrand the Decapitator and more 'Generic Soulgrinder.'
Daemons are all fragments of the chaos gods, if you (somehow)annihilate that portion you are killing a portion of the god.

On a more opinionated note: Soul grinders have more interesting fluff than Sigmarines because they're desperately bargaining the possibility of losing their self for the chance to return to the mortal realms earlier than expected.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Fuzzy_Logic
In a post-comicon-2.0 age where suddenly every writer is obsessed with needless world-building

Are you retarded or something? You think worldbuilding is new?

without overstepping its bounds in limiting "your dudes"

It's a good thing basically no setting does this.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@RavySnake
my imperials aren't nazis
Yes they are. The imperium is the Nazi faction. The space marines are their genocidal ubermench. The fact that yours have better PR means nothing.

Inmate
Inmate

@VisualMaster
every time you kill a stormcast,
You just send them to respawn.
so basically every time a sc dies Sigmar gets weaker.
Who cares, he is still BobbyG of the setting.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@haveahappyday
Nobody on this fucking planet is going to confuse Viking with Skyrim you mong. Most people don't even know what Skyrim IS.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Spamalot
The imperium is the Nazi faction
multicultural society since founding
new Imperium is multiracial society

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Inmate
Shut up, slav.

Evilember
Evilember

@Emberfire
Nice astroturfing

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

They are still the same tasteless and uninspired MOBAesque dudes with huge shoulder pauldrons. They living proof that Priestly was right about everyone creative having left GW years ago.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Emberburn
Not an argument

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@MPmaster
Are you retarded or something? You think worldbuilding is new?
Nice strawman. Obviously worldbuilding isn't new: world-bulilding autists have always been a thing, but the past decade or so the world-building-autists, for some reason, have become an important part of the word-of-mouth marketing machine. As a result we've seen an increase in companies focusing on world-building to the exclusion of all else, and letting everything else, quality storytelling, to quality rules, fall to the wayside.

It went from something that the settings of my hobbies did a lot, to something the settings of my hobbies did all the time to the determent of the hobby itself, and it's refreshing to see someone NOT doing that.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@lostmypassword
Most people who may be aware of pop culture will, or at least in the video. If I say viking to someone normal, they will assume the horned helmetted guy with shaggy beard. That image is nothing like on the Chaos Warrior.

If I say viking, pic related is what they imagine. By saying its a viking I am taking away the actual image of a fully plated, spiky, hugely built, horned helmet knight.

Inmate
Inmate

ITT: people who got into Warhammer around 12 years ago at max, not understanding how the WHFB universe started and then judge AoS based on what they are experiencing now and what Carnac and Slavposter shit out.

everyone who says AoS is boring and generic should probably go read their Heroquest Campaign books again.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Boy_vs_Girl
The Axe, shield, furred cape, helmet, tendency to rape and pillage, and general badass imagery are correct.

Saying evil armored vikings or vikings in fullplate is pretty accurate as far as chaos warrior descriptions go.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Inmate
g-g-guys just give it time
AoS is 3 yo already and GW isn't some small indie studio with 1 writter.
They already did what they've plqned with the setting and it's poor WoW/Planescape (5th edition) clone.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

I just want to say as heated as much of this discussion has been, I have enjoyed it. Thank you Veeky Forums. Threads like this are one of the many reasons I still come here to talk about games.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@StrangeWizard
Thematically vikings fits I am just purely going by physical description. If I knew someone say familiar with MtG who has a grounding like this, sure I'd gladly say "Imagine evil full plate armoured vikings".

rape and pillage
I assumed Chaos Warriors were stuck in their armour once they put it on.

Evilember
Evilember

@likme
They are still Nazis
They are Romans in space, who are willing to work with and admire xenos race like Eldar and Tau.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Illusionz
Slavposter please.

It took the WHFRP book to even give a hint of life to the Warhammer setting, before that, aka, 1-2nd edition and Heroquest were literally DnD tier generic shit.

Also: Warriors of chaos didn't get the Viking Aesthetic until they merged most of Chaos Mortals into one group.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@VisualMaster
So you're saying that by the time AoS's setting stops suckling donkey dick the gameplay itself will also stop being utter dogshit?

likme
likme

@Fried_Sushi
Not him but I have always wondered about AoS critics who phrase things like this: Have you actually played the game under the General's Handbook rules of Matched play?

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Fried_Sushi
I'm saying it'll probably take the AoSRPG book to add anything close to Warhammer-tier Backstory.

And I'm going to tell you the truth Slavposter. The Warhammer setting didn't evolve a single inch beyond the WHFRPG book either from 1986.

In fact, with things like Norsca; it actually devolved dramatically.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@likme
It's Slavposter, he hasn't, he just autistically hates on every Veeky Forums game ever.

He does the same in Infinity ( lol all ripped off anime) and Warmahordes.

I think he's just a super retarded X-wing player.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@likme
have you tried the same game but with points splotched in and without the "funny" rules
It was still shit.

@Deadlyinx
if you don't like my game you're the boogieman
I'd tell you to grow up but since you're playing AoS that means you're in the right demographic for their product. Mentally at least.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Crazy_Nice
Has no argument to my statements
Just calls me a Baby.

You argue like a 12 year old Slavposter.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@w8t4u
Statements aren't arguments child.
You know what other setting hasn't advanced in decades? 40k, it only recently started moving forward.
But without blowing up.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Spazyfool
I will never like Age of Sigmar because it was born from the death of Warhammer fantasy.

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying it's fair to not give the new setting a chance, but I know there are a bunch of people who feel the same as I do.

This. There are some aspects of AoS that I think are decent, and certainly some of the models that they're released for the newer factions are pretty cool. But it was created from the death of Warhammer Fantasy, which I liked much more. I've never really given AoS a chance, but because WHFB died to create it I'll always resent it.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@BinaryMan
Know what buddy, When the setting DID advance, in 6th edition, it was such a colossal fuckup it made the setting constantly teeter on the brink of destruction by making Chaos the final say.

Go ahead, tell me how you could advance the Old World without stepping on a single toe.

@Dreamworx
And we have never been happier losing dead weight like you in our community son.

massdebater
massdebater

I think most tabletop wargamers forget that Warhammer Fantasy had at least SOME recognition outside of wargming circles that could still be called "nerds". A lot of those people don't know wtf Age of Sigmar is, and that it "replaced" WHF. And that's not counting people in the general population, so that's a fraction of a fraction who cared in the first place.

WHF could have been killed off and never replaced with anything, and mostly nobody would have given a shit. Maybe one day AoS will be a somebody. Claiming that it's an improvement based on its setting being recognizably unique is beyond deluded.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Emberfire
I think in time, more and more people will come to accept it.
I agree and i did have my point when i thought"well maybe i just overreacted" too, i read the rules and they actually were dogshit.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Dreamworx
Unironically sides with "The Old World" while posting a picture that proves the fandom were the problem 100%.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@Burnblaze
Slavposter stop posting against the OP pretending to be new people.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Evil_kitten
we
implying there is a community

Supergrass
Supergrass

@likme
Not him, but I HAVE played with General's Handbook and Matched Play, and I can confidently say it was like putting a band-aid on cancer. As I've said before, I love the new models, I find the new tone refreshing, and whenever I can find bits online I buy them for conversions, but the rules for AoS are just bad. They're basically 40k rules, but simpler, and while simple isn't necessarily a bad thing, the appeal of WHFB to me was always actual medieval ranked-unit combat, but without the rediculous fiddlyness, countless tables, and rampant imballance of historicals... plus magic, because magic is a fun thing to add to that. Basically it's WH40k 3rd, but with random charge ranges, TLOS instead of B2B, and no force organization chart.

The worst part, despite being AoS hyper simplified, KoW still finishes games faster, so it doesn't even have speed going for it.

Maybe it's not BAD, but there's nothing I can get out of it, as a system, that I can't get better and easier out of a different system

KoW for speed
40k3rd/8th for simplicity
Necromunda/Mordheim for skirmishes
Warmhordes for TCT-Combo-Deck-Like army building game
AoS for.... uh... being able to play at an official GW store without being hassled by the redshirt?
AoS as a system, brings nothing new to the table.
AoS as a setting and model line is refreshingly new and original.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@cum2soon
I assumed Chaos Warriors were stuck in their armour once they put it on.
user this is Fantasy, not 40k.

There is a lot more explicit rape.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@AwesomeTucker
As much as there was a Community in WHFB after Storm of Chaos?

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Methnerd
I didn't actually read the post but I feel entitled to pass judgment upon it
REEEEE and such

ok

iluvmen
iluvmen

@cum2soon
I assumed Chaos Warriors were stuck in their armour once they put it on.

Nah, that's just something the gods do to people on occasion. Norscans on the whole see it as a reward but those it happens to tend to hate it, and are the most dangerous of Chaos Warriors because they desperately want to escape this hellish existence.

Normal Chaos Warriors are just big guys with Chaos-enhanced strength and dwarf-made armour.

idontknow
idontknow

@Emberburn
It's good to see AoS community is free of toxic elements

/sarcasm

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Evil_kitten
Archaon goes into hiding, peace reigns for a thousand years (or as much peace as can be had with roving chaos warriors), the empire and the dwarves have advanced technologically and now Archaon has come back to finish the job.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Raving_Cute
Forgot to take your meds again?

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Snarelure
Doesn't mention Orcs
or Elves
Everything revolves around the Empire and their designated sidekicks.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Emberburn
posting a picture that proves the fandom were the problem 100%.

How so you shillmar faggot?

Booteefool
Booteefool

@TurtleCat
WHFB ran off the fucking cliff after Storm of Chaos and nearing the end of 6th edition.

It's then when the WHFB game became less "A game about fantasy battles" to "I want to be competitive in a fucking model game"

Veeky Forums threads about WHFB were like 99% netlisters

@BinaryMan
Eltharion being a Blind Swordmaster was retconned because the Elf community got butthurt one of their characters went through a story arch. He went back to being the generic griffon lord in 7th.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@StonedTime
You want him to narrate every character too?

MPmaster
MPmaster

@StonedTime
Yeah that's how it goes unless the lens is on the west.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Harmless_Venom
No, I just showed why "Trying to advance" the story fucks over other people.

What happens with the Orcs if the Empire and Dwarves are stronger.

You effectively gut the effectiveness of some armies backstory to fuel others; which became the entire fucking problem with the Old World.

I mean these are the type of morons who think releasing Tilea would have been a good idea.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@likme
Not the same dude, but yeah, some guys convinced me into trying it. It was bad.

At no point did it feel like I was ever making a tactical decision. All my shit was equally effective no matter what it attacked, and there was so much randomness, that I didn't feel like any of my choices made any difference. I played four games, two with a friend's Sigmarines, just to see how they work, one with my old Brets and one with my old Delves, and... I not only felt like I wasn't doing anything different in each game, it also felt like I was never having to really consider any move I made. When I won, I never felt like I had earned it. It felt like the dice had done almost all the work.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Methnerd
Why is it every critic of the game always says stuff that literally never shows up in actual AoS games. And why do they always have "Brets or whatever shit faction they had before"

It's like the 3+ 4+ meme Slavposter spouts, when that was the average rolls you did in WHFB anyway.

it sounds like you didn't play AoS at all bro.

TechHater
TechHater

@Deadlyinx
Bad things ran away and we're insignificant for a thousand years doofus, now they're back in force.
Now is when ruination comes again and evil once more has its day.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Stark_Naked
A lot more explicit rape

I literally don't recall any of that except a tidbit from Archaon's backstory.

@iluvmen
Was the dwarf-made armour bit retconned back to god-given armour? Cause damn I remember the backlash of that fluff and even I hated it and I didn't even collect Chaos.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Soft_member
lol
babyrage

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@TechHater
So you did literally nothing but give Empire and Dwarves a power boost for no reason and the setting is exactly the fucking same.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@ZeroReborn
why did they have their old armies
you can't judge AoS with valid and legal miniatures, you have to buy new ones
You're dumb.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Booteefool
Eltharion being a Blind Swordmaster was retconned because the Elf community got butthurt one of their characters went through a story arch. He went back to being the generic griffon lord in 7th.

This is incorrect though. People liked swordmaster Eltharion. GW just had no idea what to do with him.

They do this all the time when they can't think of a new way to advance the plot or write anything cool or different about a character. It happens constantly in 40K, with characters doing things or dying and then suddenly turning up as though that shit never happened.

massdebater
massdebater

@Harmless_Venom
I'm pointing out that every time someone does try to critique AoS, They sound very much like they didn't bloody play it and then use obscure Armies as an example.

I mean considering AoS is MORE tactical than WHFB, but was less strategic, is the point.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Methnerd
I see. I'll keep that in mind. I plan to go to my local GW to try it out the first time. I've read the rules and they seem ok on paper and I like the simplicity.

However worst case at least I always have Blood Bowl

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Stupidasole
the same
Your lack of imagination is expected, if not dissapointing.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@Emberfire
the problem i have with aos is that its nothing like wfb. aos is fine as a game.

but what i liked about wfb was the "dark" fantasy style. just regular landsknechts fighting monsters in regiments.

i didnt like 8th edition that much though. the game had moved away to much from several largish regiments and an interesting movement phase to a 1 huge unit with a billion monsters instead.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@Spamalot
You really were not around for it were you? The whining was palpable because for some reason Eltharion had an autistic fanbase.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@ZeroReborn
Why is it every critic of the game always says stuff that literally never shows up in actual AoS games.

Why is it that so many people report these problems? Because they exist and pretending they don't just makes you look like a tard.

And why do they always have "Brets or whatever shit faction they had before"

Are you asking why they have the faction they own? Because they own that faction you dumbass. Besides, I tried Stormcast too, and playing them was almost exactly the same as playing my shitty Brets.

It's not my fault the game sucks ass, mate. It's just a shit game. There are more worthwhile endeavors in life than lying and strawmanning on the internet in order to defend it.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@massdebater
more tactical

StonedTime
StonedTime

@ZeroReborn
when that was the average rolls you did in WHFB anyway.
Except in WHFB you've must do a little more than doing these rolls while all miniatures stucking on the middle of table.
Also, you've named at least 2 different anons by one name, eo stop using "le slav boogeyman" and bring some arguments.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Methnerd
Just have the bad guys lose!
Why is your imagination so shit.

Well, here's why. How is that in any way interesting as say, an Orc Player?

Oh you guys are on hold for like a thousand years so the Good guys can catch up because it's THEIR setting afterall.

You sound like an Empire Player.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@StrangeWizard
Was the dwarf-made armour bit retconned back to god-given armour?

Nah, it's still part of the fluff. The lore is just more vague about it, sometimes mentioning chaos dwarves and sometimes mentioning unspecified 'dark foundries' far to the north.

It was never literally handed to them by the gods anyway.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@RavySnake
It's simple, because their "Problems" are just not an issue in AoS and it proves they don't play the game.

See: @StonedTime

Literally no AoS game would ever devolve into "Big fight in the middle of the table"

ever. I mean when the Entire meta in AoS right now is more Shooty and fast armies rather than Hordes and tarpits, I don't even see what the fuck people complain about here.

askme
askme

@StrangeWizard
I literally don't recall any of that

Beastmen bro. Beastmen reproduce through rape.

Fluff on Norsii and Kurgan tends to mention that they take rapeslaves when they raid the coasts.

massdebater
massdebater

@New_Cliche
Which edition rulebook is it mentioned? I got that hardback (8th edition?) rulebook and under the blurb of chaos armour it says its "gifts of the gods" or some other so I assumed it was retconned from the 7th/6th edition one where it first mentioned Chaos Dwarfs.

I always liked to imagine a norse wandered or some other mortal only to be "zapped" with Chaos Armour. Something odd like that.

likme
likme

@BlogWobbles
He doesn't know the difference between Strategy and tactics.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Emberfire
I am a fagget

SniperGod
SniperGod

@askme
Oh right, completely forgot about beastmen. Well sure its implied and heavily suggested but I definitely don't remember the Norse fluff like that, less you are referring Black Library as I've read barely any of them.

Skarsnik is literally one of my all time favourite pieces of literature even among the classics. What a perfect book.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Spamalot
It's simple, because their "Problems" are just not an issue in AoS and it proves they don't play the game.

Well, considering I've played the game, and those problems did appear, I'm going to have to assume that you're a liar, and just more indication that AoS' community is by en large a toxic cesspool I'd rather avoid.

I'm hardly going to believe you over my own experiences, am I?

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Spamalot
"Problems" are just not an issue in AoS
Yeah sure stagnant SaS meta totally doesn't exist.
now is more Shooty
And it's still the same rolls.
fast armies
No such thing.
I don't even see what the fuck people complain about here.
Bad writting, bad artstyle, bad gamedesign and balance.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@likme
tactic
just spam most OP unit and move all your miniatures forward

iluvmen
iluvmen

@SniperWish
AoS' community is by en large a toxic cesspool I'd rather avoid.

Ah here now, don't be like that. Not him but that's pretty harsh.

Inmate
Inmate

@happy_sad
@Emberfire

REMINDER:
Samecast Eternals are the Toyota Carolla of Warhammer.
They are the Vanilla Ice cream of Warhammer.
They are the ryu and ken of Warhammer.
They are the ultramarines of AoS

REMOVE ALL STORMKEKS

If you play cuckcast eternals, you have no taste

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Deadlyinx

do I fit in yet Veeky Forums? YOU LIKE ME RIGHT?? DO I FIT IN!?!??!

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@SniperWish
Well, let's break down your experiences then shall we?

What units did you use? What armies did you play against?

What scenarios were you using? How much terrain did you use? Did you spread the objectives out correctly?

@New_Cliche
Stagnant Stand and Shoot armies
Like 3 armies and their counters and the counter counters.

Still the same rolles
You know it's easier to modify your rolls in AoS than in WHFB right? You roll more averages in WHFB dramatically than in WHFB where it's actually more common to be able to get numbers at the other ends of the spectrum.

No fast armies.
Wood Elves, Sylvaneth, Overlords, Mounted Slaves to Darkness, Flesheaters, Any destruction army

E-everything is bad

Slavposter, All you do, every thread, is prove you never played the game

@iluvmen
I expect as much from Shitposters who never played the game really.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@happy_sad
Yeah, but 8th sucked.
It really, really sucked.

They should have just released shit like Araby and Ind with 9th.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@New_Cliche
You know whats funny? How the Meta in AoS changes so dramatically when every new book is released, not just with the new book being "Broken" either.

They iron out the kinks every time with slow development actually.

Right at the start, Seraphon Saurus were supposed to be the be all and end all of the games meta. Then Sylvaneth made it about Mobility and Archer spam. But Beastclaw can absorb that. The only real problem is the rangespam Stormcast, but the GHB2 is making Hordes Amazing, which can offset that Rangespam dramatically and might even see things like Skaven and Moonclan be top picks.

I mean people forget that IronJawz are a good counter to Rangespam too.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Methnerd
Don't you have a pile of dudes with hammers who all look the same, with similar sounding names that you need to paint all the same color?
Maybe you should do that instead of defending your poor choice in armies.

Nope I don't want skeles
Nope I don't want space dinos
Nope I don't want bird deamons
Nope I don't want villainous moustache twirling ratmen
Nope I don't want fire dwarves or blimp dwarves
I want those TOTALLY UNIQUE (c) TM and AWESOME "guys in power armor that all look the same, use the same weapons, have the same colors, faces, and have heavy plate armored archers"

Illusionz
Illusionz

@SniperGod
The 3rd edition and RPG's is full of mention, especially on slaanesh, of them throwing rape sex parties and that anything that stumbles across them would be better off dead.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@ZeroReborn
and their counters and the counter counters.
Doesn't exist.
You know it's easier to modify your rolls in AoS than in WHFB right?
So what? After reaching your unit fire distance you just rolling dices and nothing more, no tactic (because tactic doesn't exist when you have only 2 types of units, and it's most of AoS lists).
Wood Elves
Shit.
Sylvaneth
SaS
Overlords
Okay, missed them.
Mounted Slaves to Darkness, Flesheaters, Any destruction army
Shit. The most playable Destr army is SaS.
Slavposter, All you do, every thread, is prove you never played the game
Not an argument

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@AwesomeTucker
GHB2 is making Hordes Amazing

Elaborate please. What's the deal here?

w8t4u
w8t4u

@AwesomeTucker
IronJawz are a good counter to Rangespam too.
They aren't, even AoS core rules are SaS-freindly.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Illusionz
3rd edition

Ooooh ok. I only got into this whole gig like 5th edition or so. If even. You know with the old Black Goblin White Dwarf issue. That explains a lot. Also explains why I didn't read in any recent stuff.

Slaanesh rape sex parties

Why am I not surprised?

TreeEater
TreeEater

GW could have prevented all of this had they simply turned Sigmarines into the human factions from WHF reborn.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@SniperGod
Wait, Fallout power soldiers are genetically engineered?
Also, comparing Astartes to Spartans is akin to comparing a cuirassier to a a Spec-Op.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Spazyfool
Slavposter thinks Kunnin' Rukk works against SaS armies.
In 217

Kunnin' Rukk was the counter to Saurus Guard and Beastclaw you mongoloid.

He thinks Sylvaneth can only do Longbow Hunter spam

He thinks Mounted Slaves are shit

@Lord_Tryzalot
Units have a price per base and a Price per Max unit, the Max unit price gives a discount. So say the Goblins have a max unit of 40, you can take the full 40 for a cheaper price.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@ZeroReborn
Two matches were Standoff, two were another scenario, the name of which I don't remember, but it had three objectives along the center and had one of them vanish at the end of the first turn.

The Stormcast were the smallest army I used, as I tried to have as many of the buffer dudes with the glaives and two-handed hammers as possible. Their line infantry doesn't do anything for me so I used their ranged options, the guys with the bows. I had two heroes, both on foot, don't ask me to remember their names. My delves army was pretty standard, one large groups of spearmen, a large group of crossbowmen with war engine support, a bunch of executioners, some dark riders, a sorceress and a lord. My Brets were a cookie cutter list too, since I was testing the system. Longbowmen, longbowmen, knights errant, GRAIL KNIGHTSMOTHERFUCKER.

I know most of this stuff has new names in AoS. Don't ask me to remember any of it aside from 'darkshards', it all sounded retarded.

We used quite a lot of terrain. Skirmish games are best with a fair amount of terrain. Mostly woods and hills, with some rocky outcroppings. No buildings, the other tables were hogging them.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@w8t4u
He doesn't even know why the top SaS armies are currently SaS

Hahaha, you fucking clown Slavposter.

The only good SaS armies right now are Sylvaneth and Stormcast. And that's because they have very strong tools right now. Namely, Kurnoth hunters and those fucking annoying Starhawk fucks.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@PurpleCharger

this is such a dumb post

all this criticism can be levied against 40k and that shit is loved by Veeky Forums

kill yourself for parroting other people's opinions instead of using your brain, though I doubt you have one

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@SniperWish
He thinks Sylvaneth can only do Longbow Hunter spam
It's most effective list.
He thinks Mounted Slaves are shit
Yes they are, no good shooting and magic, Tzeench, Kurnouth Hunters and Raptors will wipe them out of table.

idontknow
idontknow

@SniperWish
Well shite I hope that doesn't bunch on the meta too much. Was trying to get into AoS with the inclination of building an army on a nice small budget.

Methshot
Methshot

@Sir_Gallonhead
Will wipe them out of the table.

Fucking Knights and Chariots getting wiped off the table.

Jesus, it's like saying Ironjawz or Blood Warrior Bloodbound will get wiped off the table.

Just wrong. I mean fuck, Kurnoth hunters are pretty shit bro.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@New_Cliche
Not him but what is SaS and what is its significance?

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Spamalot
Dark Souls I loved because it was gritty low fantasy. WHF is high fantasy.

It's funny because when I first played Dark Souls I was like "hell yeah, it's the Warhammer aesthetic".

"High" or "low" fantasy aren't useful terms, but these properties are exactly the same genre of fantasy that uses a lot of historical references in its costume and set design but at the end of the day has its heros beating on all manner of grotesque gremlins with oversized weaponry.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@New_Cliche
The only good SaS armies right now are Sylvaneth and Stormcast
Yep, so what?
Also, you are missing savage orcs.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@TreeEater
I'm not sure who would have wanted that, except apparently you.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Burnblaze
Stand and Shoot. or Gunline.

The reality is only two armies can do SaS well, and that's a Vanguard Stormcast Army and Sylvaneth.

@SniperWish
Savage Orcs are "Okay" but really, Kunnin' Rukk is a bit of a meme build because Bonezplittaz are not exactly durable like Kurnoths and Stormcast.

The issue is there is no Solid counter to SaS right now besides "Get your shit up the board" which honestly isn't that hard. I mean technically Brayherds could easily stomp SaS armies due to lolnumbers very quickly.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Methshot
Just wrong
Wow, great argumentation.

Inmate
Inmate

@Garbage Can Lid
The issue is there is no Solid counter to SaS
It couldn't exist, because melee doesn't have tactical niche anymore.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@askme
Beastmen bro. Beastmen reproduce through rape.

Is that made explicit? There are female beastmen and you'd assume that's where the bulk of beastbabies come from.

You can certainly infer a lot of rape, because beastmen are mutant humans and a hell of a lot of rape goes on even in wars that only involve one species and they're based on the Broo on top of all that who are very explicitly rapey. But I'd be surprised if modern GW so much as gave it a nod.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@Inmate
Melee attacks by and far do way more damage than Ranged attacks, Even Kunnin' Rukk, Raptors and Kurnoth show that.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@Fried_Sushi
This desu, 8th edition fantasy was bad but they through the setting out with the bathwater

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Firespawn
Yea beastmen are largely ambiguous at "they probobly do it all the time but it's not the only way" but fimir aren't

Fimir are explicitly rape babies only

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@Sharpcharm
Implying user isn't correct
Implying multiculturalism didn't make 40k give us a more interest setting
user are you high?

King_Martha
King_Martha

I quite like AOS schlocky space operay fantasy. Its unique adn fun and completely unashamed of itself. I miss WFB but AOS is a great setting and a great game.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@Evil_kitten
more unique
You can't call a less defined, less fleshed out setting which has only been around for a few years more unique than one that's 30 years old.

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