EDH/Commander General /edhg/

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

"Two Months Later and Still Mad About This Abomination" Edition

Last Thread: /tg/thread/54835874#p54835874

RESOURCES

Full C17 Decklists:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/commander-2017-edition-decklists-2017-08-11

Official Site: Contains deck building rules and the current ban list.
http://www.mtgcommander.net

Deck List Site: You can search for decks that other people have made. Authors often have comments that explain their deck’s strategy and card choices.
http://www.tappedout.net

Another resource for commander discussion; they have an entire forum dedicated to discussing decks. People often make primers, which go into detail about how they built and play their deck.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh

Statistically see what everyone else puts in their commander decks based on what is posted to the the internet.
http://www.edhrec.com/

Find out what lands you can add to your deck, sorted by category, based on a chosen Commander’s color identity.
http://manabasecrafter.com/

/tg/ EDH General Discord
https://discord.gg/UE9Vqzu

CARD SEARCH

Official search site. Current for all sets.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/

Unofficial, but has GOAT search interface.
http://magiccards.info/

Thread Question:
Did C17 make tribal any more viable? If so, what cards fixed it, and if not, what would cards would you have liked to see to pushed more aggressively?

All urls found in this thread:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/commander-2017-edition-decklists-2017-08-11
http://www.mtgcommander.net
http://www.tappedout.net
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh
http://www.edhrec.com/
http://manabasecrafter.com/
https://discord.gg/UE9Vqzu
http://gatherer.wizards.com/
http://magiccards.info/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/marrow-gnawer-and-his-army-of-rats/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-08-17-braids/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/inalla-prototype/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XLgpReEkLc
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/evergreen-eggs-ham-2015-06-08
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/black-revisited-2015-07-27
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/commander-2017-edition-release-notes-2017-08-11
Booteefool
Booteefool

@Gigastrength
Thread Question:
I'm happy about Edgar because I'd been trying to make a tribal vampire deck AND have Sorin, Lord of Innistrad but Vish Kal while good, wasn't really what I was looking for.

5mileys
5mileys

It hink the only one of the new C17 commanders that ouright enabled a tribe is Arahbo, and even that's not really for commander in general. Wizards is way too broad and if Inalla is good I can bet dollars to donuts that she won't be part of an actual wizard tribal deck. Edgar might be okay since making a free body by doing what your deck probably wants to do anyway might be good but it's not as clear to me. The dragon was just fat dragon shit. It'll be a pretty good commander just for the free mox for all dragons but I don't think it's going to make or break anything. Interestingly due ot then ature of eminence he can really be any combination of colors you want since you never have to cast him and probably don't actually want to cast him ever anyway just due to mana.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

3rd for Mairsil is /ourguy/.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Gigastrength
Did C17 make tribal any more viable? If so, what cards fixed it, and if not, what would cards would you have liked to see to pushed more aggressively?

No, because it focused on shit tribes, instead of the strongest tribes. The strongest tribes weren't viable at high competition levels, so making weaker tribes only slightly stronger isn't going to work.

The only exception to this would be the wizard tribe. I haven't examined all the cards, but there may be some that make Azami Wizard combo slightly stronger.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@5mileys
Though, Edgar is unique because he allows you to combine all the main vampire colors for the first time and you get a free little thingy for doing it so I guess in that Edgar also kind of enabled a tribe, at least in a way it was not really a thing before. I desperately wish his tokens had lifelink though.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Booteefool
Lord of Innistrad with Edgar nets you free 2/1, 3/1 if you're lucky, vampires for life

Now this is progress.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@5mileys
Edgar and Inala not being the SOLE reason to run a Tribal deck
Ur-dragon making your shit cheaper and draws you cards and cheats cards out later in the game
The Tribal support is amazing.
Just because Inala is better suited for bullshit combos doesn't mean you can ignore her innate synergy.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@LuckyDusty
Ith was in the cage, not Lim-Dul.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@eGremlin
If you can cast it (whichyou should since Azami actually does plan to cast Azami), Kindred Discovery (?) is probably pretty good in Azami. Making all your wizards draw 2 cards instead of one for 5 seems pretty sweet.

Soft_member
Soft_member

Dragons
No.
Cats
Only Arahbo, Hungry Lynx, and Qasali Slingers. None of the other new cards have synergy or cats matter effects.
Wizards
Beats the shit out of me, but seeing as how most other people say the wizards deck is gimped, probably not.
Vamps
Edgar, Patron of the Vein, and Bloodline Necromancer. It helps them more than cats because Vamps already have a good tribal going for them.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@LuckyDusty
Lim-dûl
Not Barl
Brush up on your fucking lore.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@BunnyJinx
It sure is compared to what I was working with before.

You don't have to use my jank decks.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Gigastrength
Cats are "I'm going to at least kill one person per game" tier after C17 in metas that don't end after 4 turns.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@SomethingNew
fuck

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Raving_Cute
You're never going to cast Ur-Dragon and 5 color dragon tribal was already thing. Ur-Dragon as probably the least impactful of the 4. He may not even be the premier one because of Scion, but getting a free moxen is powerful in its own right. Point is in general it didn't enable a tribal deck that didn't exist before.

Inalla doesn't really make a real wiard tribal deck because so many cards are incidentally wizards and because it's a free ability you get from the command zone, you don't need to build around it.

StonedTime
StonedTime

does rings of brighthearth work with inalla's eminence ability if she's in the command zone? or is that technically a trigger ability?

JunkTop
JunkTop

Repostan from other thread

/tg/thread/54835874#p54840395
Let's hold your hand through this.
Be design
Take half greek myths and make a plane demonstrating shallow understanding of greek mythology
Take other half of greek myths and add legionnaires
Make a plane demonstrating shallow understand of roman mythology
Rake in shekels

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

Who is the best 5-color commander?

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@StonedTime
Does it say "When" or "Whenever" in the ability rules text?

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Booteefool
I was really hoping he made vampire knights for a subtribal theme but I like him too.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@StonedTime
It's a trigger.
@Ignoramus
Tazri, heading Tazri Food Chain. Sliver Overlord otherwise.

5mileys
5mileys

@Ignoramus
who cares

askme
askme

@Ignoramus
Depends on what you want to use it for. As far as just what's good and that's all that matters, Tazri Food Chain is the best followed by Hermit Druid Scion iirc.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Soft_member
Sliver Overlord is not better than Scion Hermit Druid.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@LuckyDusty
5 color dragon tribal
If you ran scion as anything besides commander damage/recursion/combo then you were basically running craw wurm tribal.

you don't need to build around it
What I just said about ignoring it's innate synergy.
We've gotten a lot of options this time around.

Evilember
Evilember

Fixed it.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@Soft_member
@Playboyize
Slivers being good is a meme

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Gigastrength
Did C17 make tribal any more viable? If so, what cards fixed it, and if not, what would cards would you have liked to see to pushed more aggressively?

The general "Pick a tribe" cards like Herald's Horn and Path of Ancestry should help a little with less supported Tribal decks playing consistently, but I would have liked to see a few more artifact or otherwise colorless cars helping with "Tribes Matter" that could go into any deck.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Gigastrength
more viable
Well, yes. They would have to print anti-tribal to make them less viable.

The question is, I don't think any of the printed tribes got viable enough. I feel like the tribal support will just be used in better tribes.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Evilember
No you didn't

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Evilember
God fucking dammit.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Firespawn
resolve Sliver Queen
infinite slivers, gg

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

These are all the new mythic legends. How would you rank them from best to worst? Or favorite to least favorite. Whatever you want.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@PurpleCharger
You already posted this, bring something new.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

Kindred Summons going straight into Horde of Notions.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@JunkTop
You forgot there's another part to that combo and they still don't have haste so it takes a whole turn around the table to swing unless you have a haste engine.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Carnalpleasure
You're still basically running "Craw Wurm tribal" with this, except instead of getting a free entomb for dragons to reanimate them and cheat them out while also getting for a turn anyway, you play your craw wurms cheaper and get a lot of ca in exchange for a much bigger upfront cost.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@PurpleCharger

Ur-Dragon is my favorite because I dig dragons, but I really like Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith because I do bladesmithing as a hobby.

As much as I like Kamigawa, O-Kagachi is kinda a fail, really should have been atleast an 8/8 or something.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Lunatick
Well that was 3 or 4 threads ago and I also forgot to include Ramos in the last pic.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@PurpleCharger
Edgar, Kess, Ramos and Ur-Dragon will be the ones that will be worth a lot once some time had passed.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@CouchChiller
I think Wizards are the most improved by far. Inalla's passive is absurd, the only thing keeping her from being OP is a relatively low number of Wizards being able to synergize with it. The Wizards that can however get so much better. Even cards that are otherwise janky in EDH like Master of Waves become so much better.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@PurpleCharger
+/-2
kess
mairsil
mirri
edgar
nazahn
ramos
arahbo
ur-dragon
inalla
mathas
licia
o-kagachi

this list is very slapped together and filled with bias btw.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@JunkTop

desperately wish his tokens had lifelink

You're just gonna be skullclamping then anyway

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@StonedTime
Activated abilities have : in their text.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@w8t4u
ree entomb
Er, sorry, it's not free. I realized after saying it. I recognize that you still neeed to cast scion and pay 2 to get it. I knew that but i was contrasting it with effects you actually literally get for free so it can be misleading.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@PurpleCharger
People are having fun hating on the cards but I can't bring myself to dislike any of them, even O-kagachi is finally filling a role in spirit tribal that has long been barely filled by having Child of Alara as your commander so you could slow down the game with a recurrable boardwipe.

@Spamalot
You're always running Overlord as your commander because having a tutor as your commander is how you reliable assemble combo pieces.
Once you resolve Queen with Overlord of the field it's gg because you're going to either explode with mana echoes or ashnods and kill everyone with any number of ways that you've included in your deck.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@PurpleCharger
Not arranging them in columns

Okay, Hitler.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@PurpleCharger
I'm weirdly drawn to Edgar.
I usually hate aggressive strategies and heavy tribal strategies, but I dunno. For some reason he seems really fun to play.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Stark_Naked
I know but it would be nice if he actually worked with the lifegain matters vamps. It's not a power level thing. Jut a synergy thing.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@PurpleCharger
Best
Ramos
Kess
Inalla
Mirri
Edgar
Nazahn
Mairsil
Licia
Ur-Dragon
Arahbo
Mathas
O-Kagachi
Worst

Emberfire
Emberfire

@haveahappyday
I feel like "whenever you cast a thing you get a free 1/1" has some johnny ness about it that makes you wonder what you can do with it.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@JunkTop
I was gonna throw in a True Conviction because so many vamps have stuff that triggers when they hit things.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@haveahappyday
@Emberfire
yeah. it's more like a combo enchantment than a tribal lord.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@ZeroReborn
The only catch is you do actually have to play vampires to do it which will probably hurt his potential by a lot.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@haveahappyday
counters and tokens
in a deck with no green
He's really interesting, and providing free chumps, sac fodder all game until you're ready to swing wide or combo is a great incentive to actually run subobtimal vampires over the many certified staples of the format.

It's a push in the right direction.
or maybe it'll end up being completely busted, speaking competitively.
Otherwise the jank is really fucking strong in this set and I love it.

farquit
farquit

@Stark_Naked
but the vampires which are available are diverse and have lots of potential sacrifice synergies and lord abilities amongst them.

if i was gonna use edgar i probably wouldn't plan on ever actually playing him.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Sir_Gallonhead
once you have queen it's gg after you already have these cards on the field

So after you have overlord and queen and a haste enabler and mana echoes/ashnods alter (which the latter isn't an infinite) then everyone better look out lest they be defeated by this Rube Goldberg Machine of a deck.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

How does this look

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/marrow-gnawer-and-his-army-of-rats/

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@PurpleCharger
Will never not be mad about O-Kagachi.

Effortlessly defeated Yosei
Destroyed the Eiganjo Castle protected by the plane's strongest enchantments and soldiers
Strongest spirit in existance until Kyodai and Michiko merge.
Literally destroys an entire army.
6/6

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@SomethingNew
Rube Goldberg Machine
What part of "tutor for a commander" didn't you get. Basal SLIVER is another sac option you can tutor for with your COMMANDER if you don't happen to draw into either one of those.
You don't even need a haste enabler at first because you can destroy every last one of their permanents and then take them down next turn, fuck, you can even MILL them if you want. Like I said you have at least 15 wincons in your Sliver deck.
Slivers might not be tier 1 but if you take them lightly they will take the game.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Ignoramus
I don't see the problem here.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Ignoramus
yeah. huge failure.

they should have made it 3wurbg 9/9.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@farquit
Literally 0 of the eminence commanders are actually worth casting, following the footsteps of Oloro. I mean they're fine but why would you bother wasting the mana? I just think the deck needs a high concentration fo vampires to consistently get and abuse the trigger, but there aren't enough actually good vampires to make him a real deck. This is as opposed to, say, Inalla, who you don't actually need to build around because so many powerful cards incidentally are wizards, and the power of making a temporary copy of any of the good ones is enough to play her as commander.

Making a 1/1 for free off any vampire is ok but not that powerful in and of itself in commander, but making hasty copies of even just dualcasters magus of the wills or snapcasters for 1 is worth it. Thisi s tough line to walk design wise so I'm not all that surprised WOTC wasn't quite able to nail it perfectly, getting that perfect thing where it makes a tribe powerful enough but isn't still powerful when you don't have to play the tribe.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@Ignoramus
Funnily enough, the card actually does most of these things, all but 1 if you want to make fun of Kamigawa's generally low power level.

likme
likme

@Supergrass
Oh never mind it's all but two since I forgot they actually made it nonland permanent, lol

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@RavySnake
Edgar is definitely worth playing and attacking with when you have board presence.
Ur-dragon is worth playing if you can land it on the board and swing with it.
The others are eh when casting.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@DeathDog
Swap the second row with the third row for cats, wizards and dragons to show the most viable subcommander and you're golden.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Supergrass
It trades with Yosei and is no where near the highest p/t spirit.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Ignoramus
They were almost there with the flavor too. It's hard to represent a nearly omnipotent being with numbers. They should have really just gone whole hog with it and made him, like, a 0/1 indestructible.
Then give him haste so he can actually trigger his ability and get revenge consistently, and make his revenge trigger exile a permanent from the hand as well to really sell the feeling of "the living concept of revenge is fucking pissed at you for messing with him".

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Deadlyinx
I corrected myself right after that sentence that they're actually fine for the mana but you don't have to so you generally won't. I actually do think if you really do build a dedicated Vampire tribal deck that that deck actually does plan to cast Edgar though so fair enough.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@ZeroReborn
O-Kagachi not having indestructible is the one flavorful thing they got right about the card.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Emberfire
It just exiles Yosei whcih also prevents his ability and there's more to strength than p/t. He's also not the strongest in that sense either but as I said it was a joke.

Emberburn
Emberburn

My LGS has a playset of Patron Wizard for $30 (they spiked to $20 each), I'm only having second thoughts about it because who the fuck would want to trade 4 of them later on

RavySnake
RavySnake

@eGremlin
The strongest tribes weren't viable at high competition levels
What "strong" tribe isn't? You have Krenko, Ezuri, Merfolk, Gisa/Grimgrin/Scarab God, Karthus.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Nojokur
The oe nflavorful thing they got right
The card is literally defined by the fact that someone crossed you and you punish them for it. It probably wasn't the correct portrayal of that punishment but this is like, factually wrong.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@ZeroReborn

3wurbg
flying, trample, haste

o-kagachi cannot attack a player unless they attacked you or targeted a spell or permanent you control last turn.

11/11

Supergrass
Supergrass

@JunkTop
But didn't MaRo say that Theros was too shallow?

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@StonedTime
That it's not a correct portrayal of the punishment due to being insanely weak for an all-powerful god card means it's not a flavor win.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@LuckyDusty
Thinking about building him, what are some cards I should include?

cum2soon
cum2soon

@BunnyJinx
I genuinely think they could keep it as is and just have it exile all of that player's non land permanents instead of just and the flavor would be fine. And yeah it hsould probably have haste.

Techpill
Techpill

@cum2soon
all of that player's non land permanents
they should have just made it exile a number of permanents equal to the amount of damage that it did to the player

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@PurpleCharger
I love granddaddy markovs art, totally going to buy the playmat.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Evil_kitten
Looter Scooter so you can turn him into a helicopter at will.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@PurpleCharger
The only ones I don't like are Licia, Mathas and O-Kagachi, everything else I can dick around with.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@Gigastrength
Did C17 make tribal any more viable? If so, what cards fixed it, and if not, what would cards would you have liked to see to pushed more aggressively?
no tribal is just a boring and subpr way to play magic

King_Martha
King_Martha

@Ignoramus
@SniperWish
RIP the dream.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Emberburn
It's just alphabetical.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Boy_vs_Girl
No, the thing you like is a subpr way to play magic.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Crazy_Nice
all-powerful god
The Kami war was unnecessarily drawn out, hence O-Kagachi not bring full bear to the table, you'll swoop down, take some shit out and do it again later. You're pissed but you've still got all the time in the world.

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Supergrass
I dunno did he?

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Evil_kitten
Lotus Bloom, Apprentice/Doomed Necromancer, Quicksilver Elemental, Lab Man/Mirror-Mad Phantasm/Demonic Consultation if you're scum like me, Necrotic Ooze, Faithless Looting/Cathartic Reunion/Tormenting Voice/Fact or Fiction/Intuition/Frantic Search/Careful Study/Deep Analysis, Thermopod, Feldon. My secret is Kozilek's Translator.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@Evil_kitten
Morphling, AEtherling, Torchling.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@King_Martha
Someone send this to blogatog so he can take the hint and stop fucking up cards based on renowned characters from lore in supplemental products.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@StrangeWizard
Maro isn't even on the teams for supplemental sets.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Deadlyinx
Stop baiting.

likme
likme

@StrangeWizard
Are you kidding me? I mean the trigger is better but it still only takes one thing, and it's bigger. That's it. Is that really all that matters, that it's bigger?

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@StrangeWizard
Maro hasn't been on any of the Commander teams. It's these twats:
Design
Gavin Verhey (lead)
Ben Hayes
Jules Robins
Mark Gottlieb
Bryan Hawley

Development
Bryan Hawley (lead)
Glenn Jones
Jules Robins
Mark Globus

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Emberburn
tfw ordered one for 6€ on thursday
has not shipped yet

I really hope the seller won't cancel my order, fuck.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Sir_Gallonhead
implying Maro won't defend this card against rampant criticism
implying he isn't the go-to frustration outlet for the average MTG player
implying (((they))) didn't do this on purpose

whereismyname
whereismyname

@likme
The fact it can take immediate revenge is much better, and it not being smaller than several other Kami is a massive flavor improvement.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@eGremlin
Now you're just trying too hard

Soft_member
Soft_member

@likme
That's it. Is that really all that matters, that it's bigger?
Considering that's 95% of the complaints people have about the card, yes that's pretty much all that really matter. I'd take that mockup over the current version 10/10 times.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Boy_vs_Girl
But I can just jam a deck full of cards that share a creature type and feel like I'm good at deck building!

takes2long
takes2long

Tear my deck apart
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-08-17-braids/
Particularly I'm still looking for some better general answers outside of countermagic and creature control, but haven't come up with much.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@eGremlin
implying Maro won't defend this card against rampant criticism

He hasn't really tried to defend Ludevic. His response was basically "We tried to fit a square peg in a round hole and left a lot of people unhappy.", acknowledging that Ludevic had no business being a Partner, since Partners were all low power bottom-up designs.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@Boy_vs_Girl
Not necessarily. That is true for most tribal decks that just focus on buffing and swinging, but there are some more interesting tribes with a broader strategy in play. Goblins, Elves, and Zombies tend to be easy and boring because they just go wide and buff to swing for game.

TechHater
TechHater

@Harmless_Venom
So are you denying implying those things or not?

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@takes2long
My first reaction is "cough up for Jin-Gitaxis so if you draw him you have lots of Braids fodder and your opponents have little Braids fodder"

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Sharpcharm

Maybe it'll ship on monday? Some places aren't really updated with the spikes on old cards. I managed to get a Riptide Laboratory for $7, myself

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Soft_member
I mean its technically a better card, but it certainly flavorfully or even mechanically leaps and bounds better, just kind of a little. Why are people so concerned with the p/t? Many humans are as powerul or more than two grizzly bears.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/inalla-prototype/

Cuts/adds? Manabase is in progress

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@AwesomeTucker
Yeah, he's definitely on my list for future upgrades, but this was one of my first decks coming back to Magic after a few years, so I was trying to keep a semi-restrictive budget. Same with Blightsteel Collossus and a few others I wanted to include

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@PurpleCharger
I hope so, bought it on mcm from a professional seller so probably.

Emberburn
Emberburn

What's some good +1/+1 tech for Licia?

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@SniperGod
acknowledging that Ludevic had no business being a Partner, since Partners were all low power bottom-up designs.
What he said didn't state any of that. In fact, this is what he said:

.>The cards had to be legendary because of the requirement to be commanders, so we had two options: Make up completely new characters or try to see if we could find existing characters that hadn’t yet gotten a card that made some sense with the existing designs.

Previous Commander products told us players really like when we reference existing characters, so we set out to try and match characters to the designed cards. This is tricky as you don’t have the fine control you have with top down designs.

Should we have saved any characters until we could have done them as top down designs? Maybe. There’s a strong case that Ludevic might have been one in that category.

But I imagine a parallel world where we chose to do less existing characters so we could save them for a future top down design, and people are complaining that we didn’t have enough “known” legendary characters.

Designing Magic is hard because so many people want different things and trying to juggle them all so you make as many people as happy as you can is difficult.

I hear that many of you Imagined Ludevic as being a top down design and maybe with 20/20 hindsight, that would have been the correct call, but we didn’t have that hindsight when we’re making things.

Players had said they wanted a Ludevic card and we had an opportunity to make one, and we knew another chance was most likely years away, so we took the opportunity.

So to recap Maro defended the team through these points:
- It had to be bottom up
- You guys said you wanted more lore characters
- We had the chance now to make this character everyone wanted rather than later
- Hindsight is 20/20
- Our job isn't easy

For not defending the card, he's sure through a book of excuses at this reply.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Emberburn
idk, Necropolis Regent?

Inmate
Inmate

@JunkTop
Jesus Christ will you idiots fuck off already

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@Dreamworx
Why are people so concerned with the p/t?

Because p/t scales more "accurately" the higher it gets. And this kami was explicitly stated to be the strongest kami by leaps and bounds. And a 6/6 is incredibly unremarkable for such a hyped up character. And finally flavor matters more for legendaries than the average card.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@ZeroReborn
He's defending the team, but not the card. You can defend your logic while ultimately admitting the outcome was faulty.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Emberburn
BFZ Drana and Cathar's Crusade for a go-wide strategy. Metallic Mimic for the tribal theme.

WebTool
WebTool

@ZeroReborn
if you don't like the cards they print you don't have to buy them

i'm sorry you feel upset but posting about it isn't really going to change anything

TechHater
TechHater

@ZeroReborn
through

I'm an idiot.

FastChef
FastChef

@Garbage Can Lid
If Clever Impersonator is worth adding, definitely include Clone and Stunt Double. Otherwise, you've already all of the specifics I've had in mind.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Gigastrength
I'm going to build him anyways!
Five color Spirit/Arcane!

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@Emberfire
Yeah, I don't know why they put old Drana in instead of new Drana.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@StrangeWizard
Make me proud user.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

why is /edhg/ so full of babies? Are we the worst general on Veeky Forums?

5mileys
5mileys

@LuckyDusty
speaking of lim-dul, can you use his ability when caged? i'm assuming not because it's like a paid trigger thing

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Harmless_Venom
Not when the Modern and Standard generals exist.

iluvmen
iluvmen

@Inmate
I'm sorry that once the logic became irrefutable that your point became indefensible. No reason to be upset though, it happens to the best of us.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Dreamworx
Because in this case p/t is especially important. It's not just a matter of 6/6 being underwhelming for this kind of card, it's because 6/6 is weaker than a decent amount of the Kamigawa spirits, in spite of O-Kagachi being the strongest spirit on the plane (so powerful that when Kamigawa was released they said it couldn't be quantified in creature form, so they made Final Judgment instead).

Evilember
Evilember

@5mileys
Activated abilities have a :. You can regenerate a zombie, but his main ability is triggered and can't be used while caged.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@PurpleCharger
Eminence is such a lame mechanic, not to mention they used it in an incredibly boring way for tribal.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@Ignoramus
Guess they didn't want you to slam her down on t3 with Edgar's tokens while the other decks durdle along.

Aleshae is superior Mardu tokens commander anyway. Got a lot of love for that the last year.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@Snarelure
ultimately admitting the outcome was faulty

He didn't admit that though. He danced around admitting that. In fact, he never came close to saying "We should have done it this way instead."

He said that people will complain regardless and furthermore the feedback must not have been taken to heart but it was repeated in the very next product.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@Carnalpleasure
How powerful you are can be portrayed in more ways than just p/t. For example in that design hed be more powerful because he could just exile any of them.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Harmless_Venom
Have you seen /pfg/?

Booteefool
Booteefool

@eGremlin
the jews are conspiring to make card mechanics not fit flavor

massdebater
massdebater

@5mileys
You certainly CAN regenerate target Zombie, user!

Inmate
Inmate

@FastChef
Stunt Double seems fine, but there's so many slightly better clones than Clone itself in Grixis. Gigantoplasm, Vizier, Evil Twin, Dack's Duplicate. I think the manabase will probably end up being good enough to run any of these guys.

Playboyize
Playboyize

Once I get an assortment of 14 mana rocks, 33 lands, and 6 MLD effects, where do I continue to build boros from here?

Techpill
Techpill

@Emberfire
Also because the guy who is supposed to be destruction incarnate is worse at then some random dragon from Tarkir.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@JunkTop
It's not about a shallow understanding of anything, user. The last time they went deep was Kamigawa and that left the average player scared and confused. Theme park worlds sell because the majority of people only want to get in the shallow end of the pool.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@ZeroReborn
But I imagine a parallel world where we chose to do less existing characters so we could save them for a future top down design, and people are complaining that we didn’t have enough “known” legendary characters.
Based MaRo, telling it like it is. Magic aspies will never be satisfied.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Playboyize
you should think of different deck, this looks old and tired

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Inmate
Ah, I tend to forget about the non-mono blue clones, I'm so used to assuming it's just a blue thing

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Playboyize
Is in your yard on a random wheel the best lighting you can get where you are, user?

Supergrass
Supergrass

@ZeroReborn
He's explaining the logic while admitting it was a mistake. MaRo isn't afraid of saying when and why something fucked up since he got his podcast off the ground and now gets to talk directly. He did an entire 50 minute session about why and how BfZ didn't work well.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Techpill
I remeber when people kept in mind cards =/= lore.
Emrakul dies to 12 squirrels and so on.

Originally the never included the powerful cards since the flavor of the game is "You are a planeswalker summoning dudes to fight for you and casting spells."
It's one of the reasons they never gave Yawgmoth a card, because he's not someone you could've controlled, even as a planeswalker.

King_Martha
King_Martha

@Fuzzy_Logic
It was a joke from a few threads ago. Someone told him wheels were a good idea for Boros decks.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Emberfire
Mimic was a dollar for the longest time
massive buyout right after I give mine to some kids at my LGS and they're now almost $8

I need a gun and an address

iluvmen
iluvmen

@King_Martha
Well in that case, well done.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Playboyize
Throw in some equipment and for a artifact sub theme. Don't forget the Worldslayer.

Methshot
Methshot

@Sir_Gallonhead
Except the cards are ideally meant to reflect lore, whether the lore of the overarching story of a set or the lore of an individual character, and sometimes they do.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@WebTool
Admitting that you can't argue my points makes you look much more mature than a reply like this.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Gigastrength
You're doing this on purpose now.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Fuzzy_Logic
An user said I needed to run as many wheels as possible

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@Supergrass
Its funny, you could tell he was really broken up over BFZ. Zendikar and Innistrad were his babies and he felt he really fucked up his return to Zendikar. I almost feel bad about it. Its gotta feel like total shit when you created this thing everyone loves and you totally mess it up the next chance you get.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@w8t4u
Come to Europe, apparently they just dropped back down to 2,50-3.

Also fuck, I canceled my playset when they were 0,50.

girlDog
girlDog

@Supergrass
while admitting it was a mistake.
See @whereismyname

massdebater
massdebater

@LuckyDusty
@Gigastrength
I'm a different user, just posting the most lore-accurate version.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Sir_Gallonhead
Games tell a story through their mechanics. If you make a card of a creature, it should reflects it's flavor.

Heck, just call the card an avatar or shard of O-Kagachi and it's fine.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Ignoramus
@Supergrass
Though, one thing about that podcast I disliked was this whole overtone of "I fucked it up but there was nothing I could do about it" which is, eh, probably wrong.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@w8t4u
It -should- drop down post rotation because he's only good in Zombies, which leave soon.
The only other purpose he has is cat meme tribal.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@massdebater
Barl was Mairsil's co-conspirator, who helped him create the cage and trap Ith.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Emberfire
You're forgetting that from what we've seen of Ixalan, there's probably gonna be a tribal theme.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@whereismyname
He said that people will complain regardless
I mean, he's not wrong.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Garbage Can Lid
Yes, exactly. Which is why Mairsil is telling Barl to get the cage.

massdebater
massdebater

@Gigastrength
Is that a dude or a chick?

Emberfire
Emberfire

@happy_sad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XLgpReEkLc

Evilember
Evilember

@girlDog
Either you're an idiot who can't understand that his discussion of seeing things in hindsight means they recognize it's not a good card, or you do understand that and are purposefully ignoring it because you want to be mad about something.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@haveahappyday
No but that's side-stepping the argument that he admitted they shouldn't have made the card the way they did. He gave a very, very long excuse-ridden non-answer as to whether Ludevic should or should not have been designed the way he was.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Gigastrength

Thread Question
Not really? But it depends on how you define "Tribal" -- Inalla Wizards is going to work but only because it goes infinite, and really can you call a combo deck where the core pieces are restricted to Wizards "Wizard Tribal"?. The rest are still trying to win through linear combat and that's never going to cut it at any level of competitiveness where "Viable" is actually a question. Edgar Vampires probably comes the closest since he's a decent value engine.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Evilember
I don't have a response so you're an idiot

Well I guess that's the end of that discussion. Sorry you didn't have a quote to back up your argument.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@massdebater
Slightly better image, you can tell he's got some stubble going on. He's also got the ring he put his consciousness in.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@w8t4u
Whoops, for some reason, I was thinking it said "get in the cage".

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@massdebater
Yes.

takes2long
takes2long

@happy_sad
We already know the tribes of Ixalan are dinosaurs, vampires, merfolk, and pirates. Theyre splitting thd colors in a different way this time. UG, WB, UBR, and WRG. Maybe theyll have different tribes in Rivals but thatd make a pretty shit design tbqh to introduce new tribes in the second set who will get less support than the first ones.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@New_Cliche
Should we have saved any characters until we could have done them as top down designs? Maybe. There’s a strong case that Ludevic might have been one in that category.

There's a quote, one of a couple where Maro discusses in that post the idea that in hindsight it was a bad idea to do what they did, which he follows up on with explanation why they felt the need to go through with a bottom-up design.

But just greentext a single word and ignore everything else, it's easier than having to actually argue a stance.

Techpill
Techpill

@takes2long
I think he's saying Metallic Mimic may still find some use post-rotation.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Emberburn
Considering the lifegain theme: Unspeakable symbol.

Some creatures that will help Licia kick more ass:

Abzan falconer
Oona's blackguard
Exava, Rakdos bloodwitch
Mer-Ek nightblade

Nojokur
Nojokur

@RavySnake
I feel when it comes to Ludevic it isn't Maro's real place to give an answer really. The dude didn't work on the product and he isn't going to shit on the team that made the product and say "yeah they fucked up"

He can say why BFZ failed because he worked on that and it was a massive failure but a single card that he didn't have any input on is different. He doesn't really know what the players want because the playerbase is so vast and EDH isn't something he probably thinks about. His entire focus is nearly all about draft.

I dunno, I ain't fucking Maro but from those responses I see a dude just asking "what do you want from me?" because he's at a lost and you can't please everyone.

I'm pretty sure Ludevic was just a concept card and they needed to slap a character on it so they put him on it anyways.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@Techpill
Oh, sorry. Yeah Metallic Mimic is only gonna be better when Ixalan comes out.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@PurpleCharger
U R D R A G O N

Before the card leaked I had an Intet dragon tribal. This set will provided some major changes to my pet deck.

farquit
farquit

@RumChicken
Abzan falconer is the shit. I play it in Karlov.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@Gigastrength
Did C17 make tribal any more viable?
Tribal as a whole got marginally better but the tribes WotC choose were horribly underpowered and still are not very good. Wizards got some decent stuff and is probably the only tribe i would consider "good" out of the four. Viable is based on play group but on average if I were to try and make a strong deck that will dominate the table tribal is not what I would pick, it wouldn't even be my second choice or third.

If so, what cards fixed it, and if not, what would cards would you have liked to see to pushed more aggressively?
Tribal in general is just not very good and the arch type itself is boring as 90% of decks are the same. I believe WotC pushing tribal so hard was a lazy way of selling commander products as the decks basically make themselves and eminence was there to push the decks. If I were to change what happened I would have made a normal commander deck with a tribal SUBtheme instead of full blown tribal.

SniperWish
SniperWish

There's nothing interesting to do with any of the Eminence commanders.

I want to build around Edgar for some fun brews, but I'm starting to think it is impossible. Every deck ends up the same.

FastChef
FastChef

@Poker_Star
But just greentext a single word and ignore everything else
I literally greentexted every paragraph but one of his post. This is ironic, to the point of baiting curiously enough, that you accuse me of doing this yet you ignore the entire context of his post where he throws every excuse he can conjure for the card. He gave a very political-neutral non-answer to make it so both camps of people are happy without actually answering the question, very purposefully so I might add.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

Tell me, is pic related a good deck for a newbie? Yeah, I know that Meren is better but she is hard as fuck to find

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Nojokur
I feel when it comes to Ludevic it isn't Maro's real place to give an answer really.

I don't disagree but then in that instance he probably shouldn't be doing PR for something he feels he shouldn't give an answer for, or at the very least come out and say at the start that he doesn't feel it's his place to give a definitive answer and that he will instead explain the mindset of the team when making the card.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@BunnyJinx
Super easy to play around and you get good value with him. The deck also has some really cute looking cards like New Blood. I say go for it, user. You're gonna be swinging with a swarm of vampires and they only get beefier.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@BunnyJinx
just build krenko for newbies. the deck can be completed for under 50 dollars and is incredibly easy to pilot

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@BunnyJinx
Yeah, I think it's okay.

hairygrape
hairygrape

So, I can pack four of them in my deck?

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@viagrandad
I would have made a normal commander deck with a tribal SUBtheme instead of full blown tribal.
I mean, you know thats what it was right? The decks arent full blown tribal. Only one new commander in each is tribal and the others have their own categories the deck is split between, like all commander decks, just this time all of them had a tribal aspect.

Skullbone
Skullbone

@hairygrape
In EDH? No.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@hairygrape
What in gods name would make you think that

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Gigastrength
The decks arent full blown tribal
but they literally are user, every single card is a member of the tribe of the deck minutes equipment and instants/sources

Playboyize
Playboyize

@BunnyJinx
It won't be the world's worst start.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Spazyfool
Azami is the only creature in the wizards deck other than the commander who cares about wizards being in your deck. You're not technically wrong, but it means they built shitty half-baked tribal decks rather than good ones that had cards that synergizes with a tribal theme.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@viagrandad
What about Cat deck? I want to drag my friend into EDH and have some fun with 1v1 games. I know that C17 decks are not as good as previous ones but I'm playing a lot of Mardu already and the friend finds cat tribal deck ridiculous as fuck. We just want to know if these decks won't be a really bad start - they don't have to be some uber OP decks desu

JunkTop
JunkTop

@FastChef
Thanks for proving the point by completely side-stepping the discussion at hand to greentext and talk about my post rather than Maro's words.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@DeathDog
Yeah, they look fine. You guys go for it and have fun tuning them over time.

girlDog
girlDog

@BunnyJinx
It's the only deck that comes with signets for some stupid reason, so yes.

massdebater
massdebater

@DeathDog
the decks out of the box against each other are perfectly fine. I'd say they are on par with some of the older releases and the only real issue with them is the mana base. Everyone every year says the decks are bad and that the previous ones were better.

Honestly I think these decks are better to pick up for newer players than last years decks.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@Spazyfool
Cats was a cat deck, and an equipment deck. Vampires was vamps and life gain. Wizards is a clone ish tap ish type deck, it shard to pin down deck and a spellslinger deck, plus wizards. He only one thats kind od all ttibal is the dragon one. Im not sure what secondaey theme is going there. Maybe big mana or colors matter? I dont know.

There is a distinction, because a dedicated Arahbo deck and a dedicated Nazahn deck are going to be completely different looking decks. Same with Licia and Edgar. It starts to get kind of fuzzy with wizards. But Ramos and Ur dragon are also different decks

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@TalkBomber

Are you me? Did I post this and forget about it?

RavySnake
RavySnake

@JunkTop
Thanks for proving the point by completely side-stepping the discussion at hand to greentext and talk about my post rather than Maro's words.

I talked about Maro's words in my first reply, you dolt. The amount of times I need to link to my previous posts in this general is astounding @ZeroReborn

Unless there's some other post Maro made about Ludevic where he admits they should have designed the card differently then you don't have a leg to stand on. He intentionally left his opinion about the card itself ambiguous because it was so poorly received. Saying he's defending the card is just factually incorrect. Please be quiet now.

WebTool
WebTool

@DeathDog
Only dragons is gonna scorn you utterly out of the box. 5c is greedy and so where their picks of a million legendaries.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@TreeEater
Dragons is 5C FattyRamp regardless if you care about tribal interactions or not

Nojokur
Nojokur

@Burnblaze
He had a difficult premise to work with in the form of the Eldrazi just being there at the end of OG Zendikar, and had the Origins rotation dropped on his head towards the end. He said that he should've done less mechanics and that BfZ was a good lesson on how to balance mechanics in both limited and constructed play. I'm really happy to see him recently walk back the keyword crap that Development's been pushing.

girlDog
girlDog

@BunnyJinx
It looks like it's gonna be the best out of the box and cheapest to improve.

Techpill
Techpill

What's the dumbest shit I can cram into Mister Jank's Wild Cage?

King_Martha
King_Martha

@Gigastrength
Is it weird that I'm madder about Waisitora?

I mean, yeah, it sucks they went back on their word about not making O-Kagachi a card because they couldn't do him justice, and then didn't even make the slightest effort to do him justice...
But Waisitora's mechanics were already all there laid out for you in the books. She's Green, super fast (Haste, First/Double Strike), and knows healing magic (Regenerates). Instead, we got BR tacked on to her mana cost to, I don't know, enable more shitty tricolor decks? And rather than referencing any of her actual abilities, she makes babies, because she's a girl and that's what girls do lol :^)

Honestly, THIS is the best the New, Progressive Wizards of the Coast can come up with for a dragon queen?

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Burnblaze
Well in the BFZ podcast it seems like he kind of known that the block was going to be a train wreck coming up.

@Techpill
Morphlings
Vehicles because you can
Flicker effects
Phasing
Magnus cards because even when you sac him he'll still get the effects.

@King_Martha
Haste is more red than green and so is double strike

w8t4u
w8t4u

@King_Martha
Regeneration is not something they will ever put on cards again.

Inmate
Inmate

@King_Martha
Instead, we got BR tacked on to her mana cost to, I don't know, enable more shitty tricolor decks?
Red because she's a dragon and black because of her philosophy. She is not green philosophically.

And rather than referencing any of her actual abilities, she makes babies, because she's a girl and that's what girls do lol :^)

From her wiki:
After giving birth to six kittens--of which only five survived--she decided to help Tetsuo once more. The champion later renounced his ties to the empire and sworn an oath of vengeance against the Emperor and his regent. Wasitora took her kittens to Umezawa Manor and defended it against the kentsu, teaching her young how to hunt at the same time.

Maybe it could've tied in the fight mechanic for a little more hunting flavor but her current sac mechanic is more elegant and less wordy.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Techpill
Mercurial Chemister.
@King_Martha
Most people have no idea who Wasitora is. That enables the fuckwit who probably designed the entire dragons deck the night before the deadline to make up whatever the hell he wants for her.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Inmate
Red because she's a dragon
Bullshit, there are many non-red dragons.

and black because of her philosophy. She is not green philosophically
Survival of the fittest is inherently Green. She has no Black traits at all.

From her wiki:
You actually think that because she gave birth this means her mechanics should revolve around giving birth? Why doesn't Pia Nalaar make Baby tokens, then?

but her current sac mechanic is more elegant
There is nothing elegant about this multi-conditional abortion of an ability. Please remove your lips from MaRo's cock.

DeathDog
DeathDog

Marthas or the Queen and what kind of deck do you build with them? pillowfort?

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@w8t4u
That's not true.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/evergreen-eggs-ham-2015-06-08

They use it occasionally. It's not fully retired just they recognize it's not that well-designed of a mechanic. They use it for flavor more often than function.

King_Martha
King_Martha

@VisualMaster
Please remove your lips from MaRo's cock.

Again, MaRo wasn't part of the Commander design team.

farquit
farquit

@DeathDog
I'm going queen politics, and Mathas is the secret general.

Inmate
Inmate

@BinaryMan
That article is outdated From blogatog: "What I mean is we’re going to stop using Regeneration and on new cards where in the past we used Regeneration we’re going to use “indestructible until end of turn”. Regeneration isn’t changing. Old cards with it will keep working as they always have."

Methnerd
Methnerd

@VisualMaster
Survival of the fittest is inherently Green. She has no Black traits at all.

I'm not going to spell out the color philosophies. I invite you to reread what I said and look up the color philosophies. Maro has explained them numerous times so it's easy to find info on them. Just know you're an idiot and I don't waste time arguing with idiots.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Methnerd
I'm not going to spell out the color philosophies.
Of course you won't, you don't know them.

Just know you're an idiot and I don't waste time arguing with idiots.
This explains why you've not done any introspection.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@farquit
Do you play the one that grants life link? It's funny watching Karlov generate his own counters.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@King_Martha
So what you are saying is you wanted a dragon with haste and first strike? That sounds incredibly shitty.

5mileys
5mileys

@DeathDog
Mathas turns spot removal into cantrips and has a ton of potential political inluence. Build Mardu goodstuff/midrange with a heaping helping of kill spells and play the table. Just be careful that your bounties don't incentivize people wrathing at the wrong time.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@Supergrass
I dont. I dont remember what its cmc was, but I play Abzan Falconer because its perfectly on curve as a 3 drop with only 1 white and gives Karlov evasion. I played Oona's Blackguard for a while too but the cmc is weird and my turn 3 really wants to be a three drop, especially a damage doubler. Also Abzan Falconer outlasting and beciming a flying 4 or 5 power dude is kind of a real thing sometimes. I actually do sometimes play Gift of Orzhova though.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@AwesomeTucker
Of course you won't, you don't know them

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/black-revisited-2015-07-27

Wasitora's main motivation was literally feeding itself and tending to it's brood. Congrats on getting another reply out of me. Still know you're an idiot.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@DeathDog
Queen as Commander, Mathas as secondary Commander and additional politics tool.

My headcanon is that he's from her Plane anyway so that adds to it.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@King_Martha
I want more keyword soup commanders

Figuratively kill yourself.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

What are so good dragons for Azorius? UW Taigam looks like it would be interesting, and I want to move away from tribal decks now that four more tribes are slightly more viable.

WebTool
WebTool

@Lunatick
what does secondary commander mean? switch them out between 99 and commander depending the table?

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@kizzmybutt
UW Dragons will be shit and Taigam barely contributes anything meaningful to it. You'd be much better off just playing actual Ojutai as a UW Dragon Tribal commander, and you'd be much, much better off not playing UW Dragon Tribal at all.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Techpill
Future Sight mechanics we only got once are probably the best answer. Pic related, attach Mairsil to a fucking land.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@WebTool
I meant that as in "takes over and gets all the protection I can give if my actual Commander's tax is too high".

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@kizzmybutt
DL Ojutai
Icefall Regent
Keiga
Yosei
Suncorch Regent
Steel Hellkite

Bidwell
Bidwell

@kizzmybutt
Taigam doesn't do enough for dragons, and will honestly probably play better as a spellslinger deck.

Techpill
Techpill

@Inmate
Huh, I stand corrected. Thanks for the info user.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Lunatick
There isn't currently any suggestion there are Vampires on Fiora.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@BinaryMan
@Bidwell
Yes, the idea is to take the best dragons, and make a spellslinger deck with Taigam at the helm. Since Taigam is going to make dragons better anyway, I might as well use the ones that are worth it.

@Nude_Bikergirl
Thank you.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@GoogleCat
Attaching Mairsil to a land doesn't actually do anything though.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Garbage Can Lid
Its not about what you can do. Its the fact that I can attach him to a land that makes me happy.

FastChef
FastChef

@Stupidasole
aah, that sounds nifty. haven't thought of playing like that. thanks user

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

I'm a new players and I'm not sure I understand when a card is "cast" or not
Would the Vampire returned on the battlefield by the effect of Bloodline Necromancer activate Edgar's eminence? What about the vampire tokens created by some of the Sorins?
Would you be able to use Counterspell to stop a card that blinked? What about "Not of This World" that counters an ability, could it stop a blinked Reality Acid?

King_Martha
King_Martha

@BlogWobbles
Which means Mathas is being pretty efficient, right?

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Lunatick
My headcanon is that he's from her Plane anyway so that adds to it.

He's probably from Ixalan, he's got that religious zealot thing going on and we already know they're all batty conquistadors.

askme
askme

@haveahappyday
civilized, 18th-ish century clothing
actual streets and building arcs
Yeah, no, that ain't Ixalan.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@askme
Sure as fuck isn't Fiora either.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@Lord_Tryzalot
Would the Vampire returned on the battlefield by the effect of Bloodline Necromancer activate Edgar's eminence?
No.

What about the vampire tokens created by some of the Sorins?
No.

Would you be able to use Counterspell to stop a card that blinked?
No.

What about "Not of This World" that counters an ability, could it stop a blinked Reality Acid?
No.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@Lord_Tryzalot
It's simple:
did you spend mana to play the card from your hand?
did the card specify an alternate casting cost, which you paid to play it?
did something else, like aetherwork marvel, specifically say you cast the card?
If the answer to all those questions is no, you did not cast it.

Illusionz
Illusionz

Worn Powerstone
When Sol Ring is already in the deck

MPmaster
MPmaster

@SniperGod
Fiora is a city plane similar to Ravnica and has Renaissance aesthetics. Definitely fits the bill a whole lot more than "dinos, pirates, vampires and ancient Inca cities".

viagrandad
viagrandad

@Lord_Tryzalot
A card is cast when you move it from the zone you're casting it from (usually your hand) to the stack, and pay its mana cost. Tokens are not and cannot be cast, nor can lands. Simply moving a card between zones (such as grave to battlefield with Bloodline Necromancer, or blinking something) is not casting it. Reality Acid can be countered by Not Of This World if it was cast, but not if it was blinked.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Harmless_Venom
This doesn't come close to the shitposting in /40kg/

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@MPmaster
0 vampires on the plane
dogmatic religious themed character
on a world where politics is number 1 and religion is never really mentioned outside of the priests who help Brago

You headcanon is shit and makes no sense.

Techpill
Techpill

@Illusionz
It's for the no-fun playgroups that ban Sol Ring from the get-go.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@MPmaster
One has the species, the other has the aesthetic. More importantly, you're both wrong. Of the known planes, he fits most on Dominaria, Ravnica, or Kephalai.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Illusionz
Sol Ring is so absurd that it's still a good card at three times the mana cost.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Gigastrength
But there's no indication that Ixalan vampires can be in red.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Lord_Tryzalot
@viagrandad
Importantly, a blinked Reality Acid doesn't even target. It's put onto the battlefield enchanting a permanent it could legally enchant, bypassing hexproof or even shroud.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@AwesomeTucker
Or black, for that matter.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Ignoramus
One of the leaked cards was a black vampire paladin. They are most likely WB, like a vampire version of Orzhov.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Ignoramus
W/B religious zealots.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@GoogleCat
He can't be attached if he is a creature can he?

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Supergrass
Yep. The Fortification rules explicitly state that they work the same way as Equipment. No island-humping for Mairsil.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@AwesomeTucker
a Fortification that’s also a creature (not a land) can’t fortify a land.
Damn.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Evil_kitten
That's actually not the relevant text there, as Mairsil doesn't become a Fortification. It's right before that, where it directs you to the equipment rules.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Techpill
Myr Propogator and other self-cloning effects. He'll legend rule but you'll get another cage.

Barl's cage for shits and giggles.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@GoogleCat
@Supergrass
@AwesomeTucker
@Evil_kitten
More importantly:
704.5q If a creature is attached to an object or player, it becomes unattached and remains on the battlefield. Similarly, if a permanent that’s neither an Aura, an Equipment, nor a Fortification is attached to an object or player, it becomes unattached and remains on the battlefield.

massdebater
massdebater

@SomethingNew
Why would you exile Mirror Gallery?

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Sharpcharm
It applies to all cards that attach, including Auras.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@massdebater
user . . .

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@SomethingNew
Infinite Mairsils, gotta love it.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@massdebater
*shoots u in ur dumb face*

JunkTop
JunkTop

There are five of us in my playgroup, and only four new decks, so I'm thinking about picking up one of the older decks and playing that instead. What were some of your favorites that have been released in the past? Between us we already own the 2016 set, so that's out.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@SomethingNew
Doesn't that just make Rack Rat? Because packrat reads put a token on the battlefield that's a copy of Pack Rat, not a copy of this card.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Techpill
Well, you have to jump through a lot of hoops. But that's why they added the "activate only once" clause.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@PackManBrainlure
Even if you don't have Mirror Gallery, it lets you Cage any number of cards from your hand by paying 2B each. Just discard what you were going to Cage and have Copy Mairsil eat it from the graveyard.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Illusionz
When a card refers to itself in its own text, it's actually just saying [THIS CARD] as far as the rules are concerned.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Dreamworx
Or, just use Quicksilver Elemental.

Inmate
Inmate

@Snarelure
nice rp

hairygrape
hairygrape

@Illusionz
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/commander-2017-edition-release-notes-2017-08-11

Read up on Mairsil.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Lunatick
That's exactly what I'm thinking.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Evil_kitten
Then you'd only need Gemstone Array and Scepter.

idontknow
idontknow

/tg/thread/54835874#p54840488
I'm all for this.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

Post vamp tech.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

Did I stutter?

Post.
Vamp.
Tech.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Stupidasole
Find.
It
Yourself.

Inmate
Inmate

@Stupidasole
Can't wait more than three minutes.
You didn't stutter, you're just a bitch.

Methshot
Methshot

@Techpill
Put a Rocket Launcher in a cage and gain the janky powers of the Rocket Launcher!

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@happy_sad
@Inmate
No vamp tech in 5 minutes and I permanently abandon this general. Then where will you be?

Clock's ticking.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@AwesomeTucker
Then where will you be?
In a much better place

Spamalot
Spamalot

@AwesomeTucker
Have some tech against Vamps.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

Why the fuck are Eclipse sleeves so hard to find?

Inmate
Inmate

@Stark_Naked
Because the tolarian community college guy said they're the best on the market.
I personally disagree. I hate the shuffle feel and much prefer Dragon Shield Mattes.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@AwesomeTucker
You make it sound like a bad thing

hairygrape
hairygrape

@Stark_Naked
Walmart has them sometimes. Go drop by

Techpill
Techpill

@Techpill
Even if you don't have the Aetherling to stack the abilities, they most likely won't own a Totem with cage counter in exile to trade back.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@Techpill
That's hilarious and slightly mean.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@hairygrape
That's actually the only place I can find them. My baby hands can shuffle and entire EDH sleeved in Eclipse. But I can't really with Dragonshields. I was in the process of buying up a ton of the white sleeves.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@SomethingNew
Doesn't work.

"Put a token onto the battlefield that's a COPY OF PACK RAT.".

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Stark_Naked
Eclipse sleeves are nice and all, i got three sets of them myself, but i've had issues with them lately.
After a while they started getting bent, dented and such. They're full of marks on the edges. Not sure if that should be tournament legal.
If you wanna invest in good sleeves, buy Dragonshield.

idontknow
idontknow

/tg/thread/54845026#p54845026
/tg/thread/54845026#p54845026
/tg/thread/54845026#p54845026

New thread for new conversations.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Crazy_Nice
See
@MPmaster

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Techpill
Quicksilver Elemental, target himself and laugh all the way to the bank.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@ZeroReborn
I don't get how they are so bad at their own goddamn jobs.

Of course people want known legendaries, but people who do like those legendaries wants them to just follow 2 simple rules:
Make them fit their flavor
Don't make them shit

It was better to wait for a better opportunity to print Ludevic, instead of fucking him up and never printing another Ludevic again. I mean, what are the chances of them making another Ludevic.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Nojokur
Commander 2018: Ludevic and O-Kagachi 2: the Revenge of Ludevic and O-Kagachi

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Techpill
Need confirmation for this, you can just keep piling up all the creature and artifact cards, and if he gets bounced or removed, there is no way to remove those caged cards completely, right?

Or is there a way to remove those caged cards?

FastChef
FastChef

@Techpill
That wont work. Exchanges auto-fail if one of the objects leaves before resolution of the exchange.

WebTool
WebTool

@cum2soon
Riftsweep the fuck out of them

5mileys
5mileys

@Stark_Naked
They're not worth it 2bh

FastChef
FastChef

@cum2soon
Riftsweeper, Pull from Eternity, and Processors are the only way to stop it.

farquit
farquit

@AwesomeTucker
I like your post, but you're still a ninny.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@w8t4u
Remember when Phasing went out?

Commander products can do all sorts of weird shit

Disable AdBlock to view this page

Disable AdBlock to view this page