What's Veeky Forums stance on the concept of the Eternal Champion and everything it...

RumChicken
RumChicken

What's Veeky Forums stance on the concept of the Eternal Champion and everything it entails?

All urls found in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGKNaIXtBZQ),
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dF_5PMTods
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pFdkkjGiEs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7krC6SY5b1A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3395sRfD24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO4iKnwA6hw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSKEXD3lTSQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C2K889u_90
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYLdnpwZ4Q0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwjQH5xFBok
whereismyname
whereismyname

@RumChicken
It's fine as long as evil guys also get one. Otherwise it's mary sue bullshit.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@RumChicken
You see him now a veteran of a thousand psychic wars.
He's been living on the edge so long where the winds of limbo roar.

And he's young enough to look at but far too old to see. All the scars on the inside.

I'm not sure that there's anything left of him.

askme
askme

@RumChicken
Eternal Champion
Elaborate

Bidwell
Bidwell

@whereismyname
There is. The Eternal Enemy, the Eternal Companion and the Eternal Consort.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Boy_vs_Girl
God tier taste in music here m8

Snarelure
Snarelure

@askme
Copy pasting from the wiki

The Eternal Champion is a being that exists in different forms throughout the Multiverse. The Champion exists to uphold the Cosmic Balance, and could even be said to be an aspect or reflection of the Balance.

Whenever there is an imbalance of Law or Chaos in the Multiverse, an aspect of the Champion will be born to set the scales right again.

While some incarnations of the Champion fight for Law, and others fight for Chaos, all fight for the Balance, whether they know it or not.

The Eternal Champion always bears an aspect of the Black Sword as his or her weapon, though it may not always manifest as a sword.

Most of the time, the Champion is unaware of his true nature, and lives his life knowing nothing of his destiny until he is swept up in it. The fate of the Champion is a fell doom indeed, for the Champion can never rest, never truly die, and never truly love.

It is possible for multiple aspects of the Champion to exist in the same universe, though it is dangerous and risks damaging the Multiverse. In these cases, the individual Champions can fuse together into one composite being. All aspects of the Champion remember their past (and possibly future) incarnations subconsciously, in dreams and nightmares. Some aspects remember them consciously, which makes them either extremely adept at surviving in the Multiverse, or borderline insane.

The Eternal Champion's tale is almost always a tragic one.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Boy_vs_Girl
Patrician taste, user. I listened to that album constantly in high school. Never understood why they aren't more respected.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Snarelure
Ok thanks

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@Spazyfool
They are. They just made the creative decision to make the music that they wanted to make instead of what was dictated at them by studio heads so normies don't give a shit about em but fuck em. BOC is pure class.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@PackManBrainlure
This
They might not be recognized among musical normies and casuals, but everyone who knows shit about good music knows and respects them.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@whereismyname

For the last fucking time stop using the term mary sue because you all punkass motherfuckers clearly don't know what it means

hairygrape
hairygrape

@happy_sad
uh-huh

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Snarelure
So it's grimdark Link?

hairygrape
hairygrape

@eGremlin
It predates Link and i would not surprised if they took inspiration from it.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@PackManBrainlure
uh, plebian here, wich group is this?

StonedTime
StonedTime

@RumChicken
His ass is bangin'

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@whereismyname
Blue Öyster Cult.

@Boy_vs_Girl
is quoting Veteran of the Psychic Wars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGKNaIXtBZQ), which was co-written by Moorcock himself.

Methshot
Methshot

@whereismyname
Before you can understand the Astronomy needed to divine the wrongness in thee, Joan Crawford, the flaming telepath herself, will arise to let you know that this ain't the summer of love. The Godzilla-sized mistake you just made will only be matched in enormity by the Reaper himself, his black blade come to take me away. Only when the cities are on fire with rock and roll will you truly be a veteran of the psychic wars and know who this is.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

Each of my campaigns has cast the characters as incarnations of the Eternal Champion(s).

Finally wove separate threads together in a 5e game, and the two Moorcock fans in the group lost their shit.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@lostmypassword
thanks glorious Patrician.

iluvmen
iluvmen

@Flameblow
Enjoy good music user
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dF_5PMTods

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Flameblow
No problem. Though I feel obligated to note that the live version of the song is even better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pFdkkjGiEs

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@RumChicken
I have so many questions.

How much control over their own lives does an Eternal Champion have?

Do they actually get to make decisions in their own lives or are they purely being swept along the tide of fate?

If there is control over their own lives, what happens if they make choices where they fail?

How much imbalance must exist in the chaos-order spectrum for a champion to be born?

TreeEater
TreeEater

@TurtleCat
Now I remember them from the Warhammer music threads.
@Methshot
Wow, That's the best way somebody has pawned me, Also thanks for the titles of their songs

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@RumChicken
It comes off as a particularly long-lived and sucessful prophecy. Very handy for the God of Heroes Archetype to use in all its incarnations.

In fact, I now realize the stored belief on it would be such a great amount that it could be used to fashion a hero out of thin air, a very plastic prana-powered tulpa. Hadn't considered my rules regarding prophecy could go so far. Another plot hook for the setting.

Thanks for teaching me about it OP. My GM will also like it.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@lostmypassword
Those are ironically the same questions raised in Stormbringer

5mileys
5mileys

@happy_sad
For the last fucking time
Thank god. We're going to hold you to that.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@whereismyname
the Eternal Champion isn't good or evil. He's the champion of Chaos
Chaos in this case being a fundamental force of the universe of the collected works of Michael Moorcock, not grimderp 40K nonsense.
Some of them, like Jerry Cornelius are kind of unambiguously a good guy.
Others, like say, Elric of Melniboné, are the most villainous of almost any protagonist in fiction.

There are thematic reasons why Chaos might be embodied in a single entity, where order has less in the way of a corresponding hero, but that's deep analysis of aguy who, honestly I haven't read nearly enough of his stuff to comment.

really should read more.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Methnerd
He's the champion of Chaos
uwotm8? Hell, most of the famous incarnations are the ones fighting chaos.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@Bidwell
I thought that the "Eternal Consort" was not in fact the same person, that she was "one form with a multitude of souls" to counterbalance how the Champion was one soul with a multitude of forms. I.E., there's always a woman who LOOKS like Ermizahd, but they're all different people with different personalities.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Stark_Naked
Yeah, a very chaotic thing to do.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Spazyfool
Never understood why they aren't more respected.

I love BOC and can state for a fact that radio is the problem. Classic rock stations are the most predictable standardized shitsack institutions and they're essentially the reason most people only recognize BOC for Don't Fear the Reaper and Burnin' For You. Besides Godzilla, the Buck Dharma songs are the ones which get the overwhelming majority of airplay because they're the hits that people recognize instantly off the bad. Classic rock stations have the most obnoxiously busybody management involved and the jocks that work there are too busy wondering which way to order their The Who and Eric Clapton back-to-back marathon to care about what gets played in between that so it's always going to be the hits, which is bullshit because virtually all the metal songs BOC put out are Eric Bloom songs. You will literally never hear anything off Heaven Forbid on an fm radio station. Actually, you're more likely to hear that one hit on Club Ninja than you are to hear something off Secret Treaties even though Club Ninja was a fucking album full of ass and buttshit and Secret Treaties is the under-the-radar best album. Radioplay doesn't encourage exploration and the jocks that work there don't give enough of a shit about what they do to try playing something that isn't a greatest hits track.

iluvmen
iluvmen

@happy_sad
Secret Treaties is the under-the-radar best album
Holy shit thank you I thought I was the only one. Fire of Unknown origin is a close 2nd though

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@RumChicken
Tom Brady

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@iluvmen
Veeeery close second. I'd say it's the more Veeky Forums album, considering that it's in Heavy Metal

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Methnerd
Hes the agent of Balance you pleb.
Stop thinking in warhammer terms.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@whereismyname
I don't mind the idea of ONE HERO versus ENDLESS EVIL, honestly. It's more cynical than I'd normally go with, but it fits well with most fantasy.

Being selfless and noble is hard, being a shitbag is clearly easy as shown by.....see all those letters at the top? Click on some.

Point is it makes the players feel more important and unique while making Evil seem near endless and omnipresent.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@CouchChiller
Is it also better when ask them why they're weary? Why they can't speak to you?

5mileys
5mileys

@iluvmen
thread about the Eternal Champion
no Black Blade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7krC6SY5b1A
step it up senpai

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@iluvmen
these are the only ones I've listened to so far, but I did do dozens of times and I love them. Which others are worth checking?

farquit
farquit

@5mileys
I have this feeling

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@farquit
My luck is none too good

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

....no mention of Hawkwind? for shame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3395sRfD24

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@Methnerd
He's the champion of balance. Law and Chaos are equally shitty when they win. The Eternal Champion's job is to make sure they don't.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Boy_vs_Girl
i've listened the crap out of it, then i've listened the shit out of the nine hundred covers of it too

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@BlogWobbles

This sword here at my side don't act the way it should.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@BlogWobbles
This sword here at my side don't act the way it should

Emberfire
Emberfire

@PackManBrainlure
Yes. Dragon in the Sword delves into this.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@VisualMaster
@PurpleCharger

It keeps calling me its master!

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Fuzzy_Logic
But I feel like its slave

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Snarelure
tfw had a very similar idea and thought I was a snowflake

Welp, at least I've got some new reading material.

iluvmen
iluvmen

@w8t4u

Hauling me faster and faster to an early, early, grave

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@iluvmen
AND IT HOWLS

SniperGod
SniperGod

@ZeroReborn
IT HOWLS LIKE HELL

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@StrangeWizard
This is an OLD idea man.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@RumChicken
I prefer the Eternal Whore myself.

Every women have a shard of the Eternal Whore inside of them. Some fight against it. Others try to cultivate it to gain eternal power.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@AwesomeTucker
Why did you feel like you had to post this? Did you think it would be funny or are you seriously this autistic?

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Lord_Tryzalot
That's fine, user. You have been enslaved by the Eternal Whore. You call yourself 'SJW', which is only the name the slaves give to themselves, under the oppression of the Eternal Whore. You aren't an Eternal Champion - you are barely an Eternal Slave.

This is fine. One day you will understand your place in the universe. One day, user. You will be able to transcend your enslaved state to actually become something else - something powerful, worthy. Not today, though.

Pray to the Eternal Champion with me. You can do it.

FastChef
FastChef

@lostmypassword
As a brit, I'm more familiar with Hawkwind, who Moorcock also collaberated with.
It used to be that a british band weren't considered "prog rock" until they had done at least one song inspired by his work!

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@SniperGod
BLACK BLADE

Evilember
Evilember

@Methnerd
you're a moron. gaynor the damned is the champion of chaos. fucking read more.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Evilember
FINALLY someone brings it up. Gaynor really is a pitiful being. Him and Klosterheim though i have have to wonder which one is worse.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Nude_Bikergirl
BLACK blade blade blade

WebTool
WebTool

@SniperGod
I'm told it's my duty

FastChef
FastChef

@Boy_vs_Girl
DON'T LET THESE SHAKES GO ON
IT'S TIME WE HAD BREAK FROM IT.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@FastChef
IT'S TIME WE HAD SOME LEAVE
WE'VE BEEN LIVING IN THE FLAMES
WE'VE BEEN EATING UP OUR BRAINS

OH PLEASE DON'T LET THESE SHAKES GO ON

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Illusionz
YOU ASK ME WHY I'M WEARY
WHY I CAN'T SPEAK TO YOU

YOU BLAME ME FOR MY SILENCE
SAY IT'S TIME I CHANGED AND GREW

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Spamalot
BUT THE WAR'S STILL GOING ON DEAR
AND THERE'S NO END THAT I KNOW

AND I CAN'T SAY IF WE'RE EVER

I can't say if we're ever gonna be free

FastChef
FastChef

@WebTool
I can't read frog runes.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@DeathDog
@FastChef
Neither can i. But this is the one time i wish i did.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Crazy_Nice
And that's all we got. And before people wonder why i posted this preview in particular
For the uninitiated
EREKOSE, CORUM AND HAWKMOON.@w8t4u
IT'S GONNA GO FOUR WHO ARE ONE AND I CANNOT WAIT AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@whereismyname
Live a life of misery and ruin
See all you love lost
Know that no matter where you go, no matter what you do, destruction will follow
Knowing it's all down to cosmic bullshit
You are a god among men
A god of death and ill fortune
You are the plaything of forces that make a mockery of all human existence
Eternal Champion
Raging against the dying of the light
Doomed to almost certain failure
Across infinite dimensions
Infinite lifetimes
Forever
...
Some newfag proclaims you "Mary-sue"
The multiverse is cruel

Methshot
Methshot

@Spazyfool
Sepiriz. Who told you the world was just?

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

Was Taarna an eternal champion?

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Ignoramus
White Hair
Wields a special sword
Doom laden destiny
Assigned by fate to go up against a force of ultimate evil

No joke, i genuinely believe it's canon to the Moorcock mythos.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@Boy_vs_Girl
I am the master of the universe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO4iKnwA6hw

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@FastChef
Well, this was beautiful
Hope somebody will post the whole thing when it comes out
God I'm so hyped

Evilember
Evilember

@WebTool
To fight against the law

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Need_TLC
Blue Oyster Cult (self-titled album), Tyranny and Mutation, and Cultosaurus Erectus are other good rock albums. Agents of Fortune is their platinum album and for good reason. I would skip Mirrors and most of Spectres. Club Ninja is where the band is generally considered to have gone to shit. Entirely skippable. Imaginos is a concept album that I don't really care for but it has Sandy Pearlman so if you like that go for it. Heaven Forbid is actually like an attempt at a metal album and is completely different from every other album. Curse of the Hidden Mirror has like one HP Lovecraft song that I liked but otherwise I didn't care for it. Almost all of their live albums are worth listening to because they put new shit in each song.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@Boy_vs_Girl
Moorcock
More cock

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@RavySnake
MORE PENIS

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Deadlyinx
Cool. What other characters fit the bill for Eternal Champion? Drizzt?

Inmate
Inmate

@kizzmybutt
Hey, why you post my waifu.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@whereismyname
What do you think Storrmbringer was, you idiot?

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Deadlyinx
@Ignoramus
She's got the ass of one. Compare to @RumChicken
.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@Need_TLC
Sparhawk from David Edding's Elenium series (also great example of a paladin)

Roland, the gunslinger from The Dark Tower series. (Not the godawful movie). (An amazing example pf a fallen paladin redeeming himself).

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

Bump

DeathDog
DeathDog

@CouchChiller
Seek help from a qualified mental health professional.

Techpill
Techpill

Was... Was Rhaegar an aspect of the Cosmic Champion? White hair, black sword (The Targaryans had two, right? He had a Valerian steel blade?), plagued by dreams and visions and seeks to fulfill an obscure prophesy?

Or maybe it's Dany. She has the White Hair going on, and perhaps her aspect of The Black Sword is her Black Dragon? She is also plagued dreams and visions leading her down a path, and is setting her up for something beyond the Iron Throne, maybe.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@Techpill

And one of Dany. I had a more bait-y picture, but I decided to go with this instead.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@DeathDog
Roland's eternal consort ended up with his eternal companion tho.
I think I'd add Killy from Blame! and Simon from TTGL in there too.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

I like Corum better than Elric. The guy is less of s cunt even though he is autistic.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Need_TLC
I remember someone stating that Hero from TES is eternal champion, although I don't remember reasoning.

takes2long
takes2long

@Raving_Cute
I think it's a reference to players who choose to wield Umbra.

WebTool
WebTool

@takes2long
I think there was some lore reason given as Umbra is only in TES III and IV if I remember correctly.

I'd guess it was related with how mantling worked in TES, meaning that all heroes was the same person in different incarnations. But I don't remember.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Need_TLC
would some of the various fire emblems work, or is this the one trope they've avoided?

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@Need_TLC
There are a large number of Elric knockoffs in Warhammer. In WHFB they at one point insinuated that Sigmar was an Eternal Champion and called his reincarnations the Champion of Light. They also had Tyrion and Teclis which were the Elric twins, and Malus Darkblade as another not-Elric prancing around the planet at the same time. In 40k they have the Eldar Prince Yriel who has a soul sucking spear and has for a long time been a renegade.

Games Workshop is not shy when it comes to knocking off Moorcock.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@CodeBuns
Yeesh that's shameless.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@CodeBuns
@SniperGod
Don't forget how they literally ripped off the symbol of chaos from Moorcock as well.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@StonedTime
Shit yes.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@Raving_Cute

It's how the protagonist is referred to in later games.
Like the imperial agent (II), Nerevarine (III), Champion of Cyrodil (IV) or Viking Dude (V)

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

So it's pretty obvious the targeryans are pretty much a rip off of this guy right? Has Geroge R. R. Tolkien spoken about this?

WebTool
WebTool

@Sharpcharm
forgot pic related.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@ZeroReborn
You'd have to go pretty far to be MORE a cunt than Elric. Like, goddamn dude.

likme
likme

@Spazyfool
I saw them live not too long ago, they still rocked hard.

Methshot
Methshot

no one mentioned castellan crowe

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Sharpcharm
If it happend, it's probably because fucking EVERYBODY rips off Moorcock a bit. The man had some writing flaws, but he would have been a spectacular DM with all the crazy ideas he had.

Eternal Champions. Forces of Law and Chaos fighting through a plurality of universes. Evil Swords that are Best Girl but also going to ruin your life.

He was on point.

askme
askme

@Sharpcharm
@WebTool

To back up what @Snarelure
said, that's WAY less of a ripoff than the hand and eye of Vecna, which is not only ripped off thematically, but mechanically from the hand of Kwll and the eye of Rhynn. Everyone ripped off Moorcock.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Evilember
That wizardry's my trade

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@Sharpcharm
Yes and no. Moorcock has said before that he and Martin are good friends and i suspect the connections are deliberate.

I want you to consider that on the GOT episode that Martin wrote, he added THIS little nugget.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSKEXD3lTSQ

STORMBRINGER
MOTHERFUCKING
STORMBRINGER.

Valyria is Melnibone and every Targaryen is Elric.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@Firespawn
Roland is,very much an eternal champion. At the star of thefirst book he had been traveling for centuries by his own reckoning, and at the ending he was looped back to the start -albeit implied to have made beter choices- because he wasn't ready yet.
He's a ruthless machine of purpose that will repeat the cycle again and again until he's ready to save the tower, whatever that is.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Playboyize
And i was born to wade through gore.
@Snarelure
Evil Swords that are Best Girl but also going to ruin your life.
Damn straight.

Skullbone
Skullbone

@CodeBuns

Valarya was for sure Melnibone and in the Elric stories it is said that the Melniboneans are descended from Dragons, and the Valaryans claim the same thing.

Which makes me wonder if Dany is supposed to be The Eternal Champion in ASOIAF.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Skullbone
Nah, pretty sure that honor is going to Jon Snow. Dany is probably going to end up as a full blown villain and our Yyrkoon.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Crazy_Nice
@Skullbone
Our is Young Griff/notAegon gonna be the Yyrkoon?

Evilember
Evilember

@FastChef
Buster sword stormbringer

Into the trash bin it goes.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Sir_Gallonhead
Elric isn't a cunt. He's not a good person but he tries to be.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@StrangeWizard
There is literally nothing wrong with lifting this idea for a game.

As long as you treat it right, and give due where credit is due, lifting a story archetype is perfectly fine for games.

Methshot
Methshot

@Techpill

Doom laden destiny? Associated with dragons? Special sword? White hair? Heir of a dynasty? Is there even a doubt?

Speaking of which, pick an Eternal Champion. Now drop him in Westeros/the world of ASOIAFA.

Now what happens?

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Harmless_Venom
They also used to have gods of Order as well.

Emberburn
Emberburn

So does anyone else feel like this new Star Wars movie is trying to rip off Moorcock too?

It already has the balance. And the same sword Anakin's blue lightsaber having been passed down to Luke, then inexplicably recovered and repaired for Mary Rey to find.

Then again, Star Wars basically rips off the Wheel of time too, since it keeps repeating the same ages over and over again.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Emberburn
So does anyone else feel like this new Star Wars movie is trying to rip off Moorcock too?
When the first details of ep8 hit, i had the exact same thought.

For fucks sakes Hollywood, why do you keep swiping Moorcock but don't want to use his material?
Can you imagine GOT uber production of Corum or Elric?

5mileys
5mileys

@Snarelure
I was never that into Warhammer fantasy. Did the Gods of Order have the single straight arrow pointing up as their emblem?

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Emberburn
Order and Chaos is not an invention of Moorcock, though. I think it's more likely that Star Wars was just inspired by Asian stuff when doing that. They were already doing samurais in space.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Raving_Cute
I would cream my jeans probably

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Sharpcharm
Order and Chaos is not an invention of Moorcock, though.
No but Moorcock's variation on it is easily identifiable.
Three Hearts didn't approach Order and Chaos the way Moorcock does and Star Wars was inspired by pulp fiction. There's definitely some Moorcock going on.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@5mileys
I don't remember. That was before I got into Warhammer, but they decided later to play that down. They later decided that all gods were just aspects of Chaos.

In Age of Sigmar they do however have an active pantheon of gods fighting Chaos to maintain their rule of their cosmic realm.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Sharpcharm
Yeah, but the whole 'Balance as a separate power' they seem to be teasing in the new trailer is what feels kinda moorcocky to me

Supergrass
Supergrass

@CodeBuns
They later decided that all gods were just aspects of Chaos.
Which is profoundly stupid if you ask me.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Supergrass
Grimdark? Stupid? You don't say!

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Spamalot
I mean even more stupid than what 40k usually offers.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Methshot
It's easy to present it as a soul sucking corp just ripping off a hapless author, but remember that GW used to be a bunch of 70s and 80s british nerds who were mega fanboys of Tolkien and Moorcock. And they've never lied about ripping off Moorcock.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@Emberfire
remember that GW used to be a bunch of 70s and 80s british nerds who were mega fanboys of Tolkien and Moorcock

What happened to those halcyon days, user? Can GW ever be saved and returned to that innocence?

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Emberfire
Assuming it's for similar reasons to 40k (which I'm considerably more familiar with, though hardly a grognard), they do it to exculpate their heroes/anti-heroes. If the universe is irreedemably shit because of supreme entities from beyond time and space that are utterly invincible and inviolate and all victory against them is just buying time against the inevitable, you can simultaneously have a "everything is crap and will always be crap" setting, while keeping noble figures (for a given value of noble) to root for without any sort of moral conflict.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Crazy_Nice

I dunno, man. She's got the White Hair, plagued by dreams and visions, and Drogon could be an aspect of the Black Blade.

Jon though also kind of fits, with the dreams and visions, and he is wielding an actual Black Blade.

Techpill
Techpill

@Stupidasole
Balance is also a very typical Asian thing.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@Lord_Tryzalot
GW fell prey to the same trap most successful nerd hobby companies fall to.

nerds make hobby company
it gets bigger due to success
nerds hire businessmen and lawyers to run the day to day bits of the company so they can keep doing the hobby stuff
these suits only care about money and dont give a shit about the hobbt itself
nerds leave or get pushed put and get replaced by more yes men
conversion is complete and the suits start sucking the fans dry to maximise short term profits to please investors

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Supergrass
It's potentially an interesting idea, but GW never took the idea of Chaos being more than just the big four in any interesting direction.

farquit
farquit

@happy_sad
Jon though also kind of fits, with the dreams and visions, and he is wielding an actual Black Blade.
Let's be honest though, Jon was always the real hero of the story ever since the first book. His parentage would never have been such a important plot point if he wasn't.

idontknow
idontknow

@Techpill
Not really. The Ying Yang stuff teaches equilibrium. What's going on now is that Balance is a force unto itself.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Fuzzy_Logic
. If the universe is irreedemably shit because of supreme entities from beyond time and space that are utterly invincible and inviolate and all victory against them is just buying time against the inevitable, you can simultaneously have a "everything is crap and will always be crap" setting, while keeping noble figures (for a given value of noble) to root for without any sort of moral conflict.
Nah, can't agree with this because Moorcock, the guy GW ripped off, did this better without Chaos wanking.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@farquit

Jon is definitely the most traditional hero in the story. That doesn't make Dany the bad guy though. And despite what the show has done as of last episode ( I was actually kind of pissed about it desu) I still think the story is going to leave Jon being a bastard boy and his mother Ashara Dayne. In fact, I sort of suspect that Lyanna's bed of blood is a misdirect and she had a miscarriage.

Mostly, i base this on the fact that GRRM seems to enjoy subverting fantasy cliches. in fact, it might interesting if Jon comes back as a Fire Wight, but is the real Jon is warged inside of Ghost.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Poker_Star
In fact, I sort of suspect that Lyanna's bed of blood is a misdirect and she had a miscarriage.
That's unless GRRM decides to change the story. I remember an interview where D&D said that they would be allowed to do GoT with Martin's blessing if they could correctly guess who Jon's mother and father were. I think it's pretty much confirmed at this point.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@happy_sad
t. mary sue

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Spazyfool
@BunnyJinx
@CouchChiller
How sad is that. Even the gods of order and chaos are subject to EVEN GREATER forces than themselves.

Men struggle and credit the gods with knowing why they struggle...But do the gods know?

But this fucking line.
Meaning, Elric? Do not seek that, for madness lies in such a course.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@CouchChiller
But Moorcock did not do that. It WAS possible to win against the divinities/fate, and that's ultimately the conclusion of the Count Brass trilogy. Secondly, you certainly have a lot of evil and darkness in the human mind even before the extra-human gets into it. If anything, you get the notion that the Gods are reflections of men, not the other way around, and they're flawed because the people who dream them up are also flawed. You do not have Shining Perfect People whose hopes, dreams, and aspirations are fucked over by malevolant deities. You have pretty messed up people trying to stumbling through, while deities are also trying to stumble through and occasionally trample on them.

Lastly, except for the Champion himself, you do not have a notion that shit is the natural state of reality and can never be improved. Usually the places that the Eternal Champion goes through do in fact get better, and stay better for a long, long time.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Emberfire
It WAS possible to win against the divinities/fate, and that's ultimately the conclusion of the Count Brass trilogy
He thinks that was the real end.
Boy do you need to pick up the Moonbeam Roads and the Second Ether trilogy. Shit gets even crazier

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

Personally, I'd like to see a campaign where the Eternal Champion is the players' arch-nemesis. Imagine existing in a universe of waxing law, where all the world's conflicts are finally resolving... and then this asshole starts bringing forth chaos.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@ZeroReborn
I think you want Gaynor the Damned.
EC's job is to unknowingly make sure both Law and Chaos don't fuck up reality.
Gaynor is a Champion who fell to Chaos and was punished with eternal life and made into a living suit of armor.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Raving_Cute

I hate that. And I hate that they made him a legitimate heir on top of it.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Garbage Can Lid
Honestly I'm half surprised they didn't make Tyrion a secret Targ while they were at it.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Need_TLC

They didn't set up the rape in the show for that to work.

King_Martha
King_Martha

@Evil_kitten
Gaynor the Damned
Gaynor

Ugh... for all that I love, LOVE, Moorcock's work I just can't get past that name. Always stood out as the one turd among all the cool names he invented.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@King_Martha
You'd think Moorcock would be a little more sensitive than the average person about that kind of things.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@BinaryMan
Bitching about HP Lovecraft doesn't necessarily make you sensitive.

iluvmen
iluvmen

Elric is the insufferable honkey.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@iluvmen
Elric is a good person raised and lived in shitty circumstances.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Lord_Tryzalot
Elric is the Cold Steel the Hedgehog of Sword and Sorcery.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Lord_Tryzalot
Elric is a whiny manchild who refuses to take responsibility for his actions. To be fair, he's running around with a sword he can't completely control, but he fucking embraces the life of a soldier of fortune which forces him to use the damn thing over and over again.

He's not actively malevolent, but he's definitely responsible for a lot of bad shit in the sense of easily foreseeable consequences to his actions that he refuses to give a shit about.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@VisualMaster
So he's a murderhobo?

viagrandad
viagrandad

@VisualMaster
Elric is a whiny manchild who refuses to take responsibility for his actions.
That's the funny bit. He DOES take responsibility for his actions but he KEEPS
ON
MAKING
BAD
CHOICES
he fucking embraces the life of a soldier of fortune which forces him to use the damn thing over and over again.
Actually that was the case because he just didn't have another real option to him at that point.
He destroyed his own empire, was hunted down by the remnants of said empire and was known and reviled by everyone in the Young Kingdoms. It was only after he met Zarozinia he gave up that life because she offered him love, peace and respite. He started taking drugs again just to be sure he never had to use Stormbringer again and because he honestly loved her and didn't want to hurt her.

takes2long
takes2long

@Garbage Can Lid
That was very forced.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@viagrandad
That doesn't make him any less of a cunt.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@viagrandad
He DOES take responsibility for his actions but he KEEPS
Since when?

Actually that was the case because he just didn't have another real option to him at that point.
He has plenty of options. The guy throws away gems on tavern rooms; I don't care how sheltered he is, he could have bothered to learn the rudiments of a value system, or just listened to Moonglum once in a while, and retired on the proceeds of one or two successful scores. He could easily stay as the Queen of Jharkor's (blanking on her name) boy toy. He could just stay in Tanelorn.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@New_Cliche
The guy throws away gems on tavern rooms;
He never cared about lodgings and was never a mercenaey. He only got involved in scehemes when he was forced to.

or just listened to Moonglum once in a while, and retired on the proceeds of one or two successful scores.
Yep but he just didn't want to retire. He had no reason to before he met Zarozinia.

He could easily stay as the Queen of Jharkor's (blanking on her name) boy toy
Yishana. He did'n';t want what she offered. He didn't love her. She was vain and petty and only wanted Elric for his allure.

He could just stay in Tanelorn.
Remember why he left. Myshella died in his arms during the siege. He was already restless and left to find his own place in the world which he did find in the arms of his wife. And then Pan Tang and Darnizhaan stirred shit up.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Fried_Sushi

He never cared about lodgings and was never a mercenaey. He only got involved in scehemes when he was forced to.
So, in other words, an entitled manchild, whom if he bothered to spend a tiny bit of effort learning something that wasn't fun, could have gotten out of it.

Yep but he just didn't want to retire.
My point exactly. Hence, you can't claim he's being forced into a lifestyle that virtually requires him to kill innocent people. And that is definitely not taking responsibility, and it's definitely not the way a good person acts.

He had no reason to before he met Zarozinia.
Well, you know, other than not being joined to Stormbringer.

Yishana. He did'n';t want what she offered.
Thx for the name. And it's still an option he has and decides that bieng a soldier of fortune is more fun.

Remember why he left. Myshella died in his arms during the siege. He was already restless and left to find his own place in the world which he did find in the arms of his wife. And then Pan Tang and Darnizhaan stirred shit up.
And again, those are OPTIONS. He chose to fight and slaughter with Stormbringer, and if a few of his friends get damned for eternity by their association with him, well, that's just the cost of business, right?

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Soft_member
I think you're under the idea that he was a sword for hire which he never was. There are plenty of instances which he LAYS DYING in an alleyway when he runs out his drugs he used to survive. Stormbringer gives off a natural revitalising effect but only little when it's not feeding on souls. He almost dies in Fortress because of this issue
And it's still an option he has and decides that bieng a soldier of fortune is more fun.
As i said, he never was. He was just a drifter.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@eGremlin
I almost always use the Eternal Champion as to help people understand Link's reincarnation cycle. So yes, like Link.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@Need_TLC
Link from the Legend of Zelda is Eternal Champion-lite.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@takes2long

Especially the way they delivered it. I don't hate Gilly, but I am super not invested in Sam and Gilly's relationship and whenever she's around the scene is always like half about that relationship. At least Jamie and Cersei can make it not about their incestual relations and talk about other shit without it being also about that. Their relationship is also more interesting though with how weirder and more dangerous it's becoming. It doesn't surprise me Cersei is a dangerslut though. She's been fucking moonboy for all we know.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Spamalot
I think it's a joke that with a name like "More-cock" you'd give more thought to names that are likely to make a middle schooler giggle.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@lostmypassword
@Harmless_Venom

I always loved that about Zelda. It had a nice Eternal Champion/Princess/Nemesis thing going on. Kinda hate Hyrule now worships in a monotheistic religion now though of the most generic fucking Goddess ever. I loved me some Triple Goddess action, and it throws off that nice 3x3x3 Action it had with Link/Gannon/Zelda, The Triforce, and the Gods.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@Methnerd
You mean Hylia? I don't think they've done away with Din, Nayru, and Farore. But I remember a few instances of the games saying that those three goddesses don't have much of an active hand in the world. After all, the three goddesses created the triforce, then just LEFT it there for ANYONE to find, no matter if it fucked the world up or not. I remember in one game it mentions after creating the world and life, the goddesses returned to where they came from.
The goddesses are like the Old Gods, and Hylia is the specific deity that watches over Hyrule, not nearly as powerful as the 3 Golden Goddesses. The 3 Golden Goddesses are too powerful to care about struggles between good and evil, or between mortals and demons.
There's a place in the pantheon for Hylia as well as Din, Nayru, and Farore.

Methshot
Methshot

@Harmless_Venom
I thought, in a sense, whosoever has a piece of the Triforce and is bound to it is essentially the champion for that Goddess. Zelda for Nayru, Link for Farore, and Ganondorf for Din?

Also, are the dragons supposed to be representatives for the three Goddesses in BotW?

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@Methshot
No, that's not really how it works. The Goddesses have never been stated to be working against each other, they are always mentioned as a unified force. Zelda and Link typically work together, as well. Ganon was never given his piece of the triforce, either. He stole it. I don't really think Din is on his side. Like I said, they don't seem to intervene often. But when they do, they favor the mortals typically. Not always though, considering they DID flood Hyrule.

I see the dragons as emissaries, if that's what you mean by representatives, sure. But the BOTW Dragons aren't really touched on much lore-wise, they're really just a means to get rare materials to upgrade things with. Wish there was more of a story there to them.

viagrandad
viagrandad

Bump

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@MPmaster
I just wanna be a lover

Techpill
Techpill

@Boy_vs_Girl

I kind of figured since Din was all about power, she might not care that he stole it, just that he was strong enough/powerful enough to. 'Cause, you know, Gods.

There's a lot of random Zelda lore I wish they would expand upon.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Deadlyinx

Not a red-eyed screaming ghoul.

Also: I know Marvel's Conan had a crossover with Elric, but are there any pulp stories of the two meeting? Or Meeting Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser? I know a lot of the authors would use elements from each other in their stories, but I think having a Swords and Sorcery crossover would be fun. I know Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser once clashed with Wonder Woman. Which is almost as weird as Punisher/Archie.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Flameblow
There is a crossover with someone else.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@CodeBuns
@Skullbone

mind fucking blown.gif

Inmate
Inmate

@lostmypassword
They have full controll over themselfs. Take Corum for an example, the fucker tried to kill himself so many times, never has he sucseeded. Thing is when you realise you will never die and watch everything you ever loved turn to dust you relise your only way of life is to fulfill your destiny.

WebTool
WebTool

All of you are little babies, check this. Play it on reapeat, pick up Symbarum and murder hobos, give them moorcock to read and play the best campaign of your fucking lives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C2K889u_90

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Techpill
@SniperGod
Martin ripped off Valerians from Moorcocks nomad elfs. The Dragons too, only Moorcock Dragons are a lazy bunch that sleeps the entire day.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@lostmypassword
They're more inteligent though

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@MPmaster
Yes, the ones in The Dreaming City got dull for using drugs on a daily basis. You have rare cases like Erlic and his rival cousin (I only know the translated name, sorry). That are still super smart, well maybe because they are potent Sorcerers.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@Techpill
Considering the Great Fairy of Power gives you a spell channeling Din's energy called Din's Fire to help you fight Ganondorf, it seems to suggest Din is not on Ganon's side.
But like I said, the Goddesses don't care too terribly much what happens to the Triforce. They left a wish-granting artifact lying around and don't care who gets it. Ganondorf gets his hands on it, and (in one timeline) kills both Link and Zelda to get the other pieces, and it then perverts the Sacred Realm into the Dark World from A Link to the Past. And the Goddesses don't do anything, besides sending the Hero to set things right. But it's debatable whether or not they were behind that even.
Hylia is more invested in what happens to mortals than the three Goddesses are, and that's probably why Hylia is more revered and worshiped.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@CodeBuns
Was talking about the dragons.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Sharpcharm
The Phoorn

Methshot
Methshot

Was looking at different editions of Count Brass on Amazon and found this amazing review.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Methshot
What a cunt.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@haveahappyday
I like that he was too lazy to look into what he was buying and then called the author too lazy.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@lostmypassword
@CodeBuns

We talked about how Valaryans and Melniboneans are basically the same thing. Also how Moorcock and Martin are friends and this sort of thing could have been intentional.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Lord_Tryzalot

The Goddesses sound like The Old Ones. Inscrutable and mysterious, doing things, occasionally, that fuck things up for mortals.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@CodeBuns
Let's be real here, it was.
Martin isn't as original as people think he is and that's okay. By all accounts, he did this with consent.

Also, you want more proof Moorcock is more deeply involved with GoT?

Azor Ahai is the Eternal Champion with another alias of ELDRICK SHADOWCHASER and HYYRKOON

Also, Jon Snow in the show now being known as the WHITE WOLF.

Come on, how obvious can it be at this point?

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Sharpcharm
Applies to both really.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@RumChicken
Yeah. Melnibone was in power the same amount of time it took for the entirety of the history of the world of ASOIAF to pass.
It ain't the Bright Empire for nothing.

5mileys
5mileys

Is Geralt of Rivia an eternal champion or would it be Ciri?

takes2long
takes2long

@Burnblaze

I'm not arguing that he doesn't reference Moorcock's works. I've accepted that. To be fair, he isn't a fantasy author for the most part, he's a sci-fi author. The truth is is that no one who's into ASOIAF is into it for completely original fantasy, those are just elements in the story, it's how he uses these symbols and the way his characters interact with the world, each other, and the subversion of expectations that make it so popular.

I guess it makes sense that his world feels so fleshed out though, since he cribbed a lot of different elements to serve as the base of it.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@5mileys
It's a fact that Sapkowski denies any inspiration from Elric. It's also a fact that Moorcock, being based, has called that a damn lie.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@5mileys
Sapkowski will always be the Eternal Plagiarist.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Methnerd
The only Champion that's an agent of Chaos that comes to mind is Jerry Cornelius.

King_Martha
King_Martha

@Fuzzy_Logic
Wasn't Elric fighting against Law in those Dreamthief's daughter line of books?

w8t4u
w8t4u

@King_Martha
In the first book. Miggea.
Law is more antagonistic in the second ether series.

askme
askme

Why doesn't Hawkmoin get the same love as the other three?

TreeEater
TreeEater

@Methshot
I want to hit that man in the face with the entire oeuvre of Moorcock.

Playboyize
Playboyize

He needs to get some Moorcock.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@TreeEater
The best part is that if he had picked another Moorcock book he could have gotten exactly what he wanted.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Methshot
The joke here being that Hawkmoon's Europa is more original than most invented worlds I can think of.

Evilember
Evilember

@Need_TLC
As someone who is a Moorcock novice, the premise of Hawkmoon sounds fantastic. I will be getting the books later this year. I just wish that the Gollancz's book covers was not the most boring thing ever.

I do recent modern book covers in general. It's like they are ashamed of their content or something.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Evilember
The old Orion book covers are jawdropping. Some of them use the Japanese cover art by Yoshitaka Amano and it's gorgeous.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Stupidasole
@Evilember
Aparrently Moorcock signed a bad deal with them and that's why they stopped. The guys he's with now did him good and published his semi autobiography

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Stupidasole
Rather, it wasn't Orion but Millenium. Always get the names mixed up. Orion is Gollancz.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Evilember
Not the guy you're responding to, but while the premise is really neat, the execution I found a bit dull. It's more of the traditional swords and sorcery and plot railroading, and it didn't hae the emotional darkness of Elric, the wide ranging drama of Erekose, or the myhtological reference and general cleverness of Corum. While I very much liked the second series, the Count Brass one, the original tetrology was one of Moorcock's weakest, at least in my opinion.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Evilember
As someone who is a Moorcock novice, the premise of Hawkmoon sounds fantastic. I will be getting the books later this year.

Always nice to meet a fellow traveller. The Hawkmoon books are my favorite Moorcock books, even more so than the Elric Saga. There's an imagination and wildness to Hawkmoon that grabs me and won't let go. Be warned, they definitely are a little rough around the edges and not as polished as the Elric books.

I just wish that the Gollancz's book covers was not the most boring thing ever.

Funny, I really like the simplicity of the Gollancz covers. To each his own.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Stupidasole
That is insanely good.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Illusionz
Also hardcover which makes my dick fully erect.
Amano did a shit ton of Moorcock stuff.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Stupidasole
I was always more of a fan of Robert Gould.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

If someone ever has the balls to do the Moorcock/Eternal Champion universe justice, they need to have Veteran of the Psychic Wars as the opening.

You just got to do this

girlDog
girlDog

@Raving_Cute
The protagonist of the first game is literally called the "Eternal Champion."

Supergrass
Supergrass

@Gigastrength
@BinaryMan
Can't say that I enjoyed the Elric stories that I read. I just found Elric to be an unlikable character. I was about to write Moorcock off until I read a few of his other stories and then I was hooked.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Supergrass
Can't say that I enjoyed the Elric stories that I read. I just found Elric to be an unlikable character
Might i ask which ones you read? Stormbringer is best saved for last so i hope it wasn't that.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Crazy_Nice
I read them in publishing order and topped it off with Stormbringer. I found it to be mostly disappointing.

Now I'm reading Corum and I'm enjoying it much more than Elric.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Flameblow
That is, I read up until Stormbringer, so mostly just the first few books.

takes2long
takes2long

@Flameblow
I read them in publishing order
Sweet crap, no. You go chronological on this, not published. Moorcock didn't get it right entirely with the first few stories.
Look, read Elric of Melnibone if you haven't then go with Sailor if you want more EC acid dropping weirdness alongside Sleeping Sorceress/ Vanishing Tower.
Or skip Sailor and read Fortress of the Pearl. In fact do that. Give it another chance.
Stormbringer is unique in that even though it was one of the first stories written, once you get all the newer ones out of your way, it hits so much harder.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Flameblow
@takes2long
Now I'm reading Corum and I'm enjoying it much more than Elric.
I think Corum is a more concrete work than the patchwork that Elric is overall but it's more bog standard(first trilogy that is) and i like the dark nature of Elric a bit more.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@takes2long
I'll get to that After Hawkmoon.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@Burnblaze
Go ahead. While you're at it, read Erekose and Von Bek. You'll love em. Guaranteed.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@CodeBuns
@Burnblaze
It's latter Moorcock so his prose is greatly improved from the days of Hawkmoon and Corum.
City in the Autumn Stars especially.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Need_TLC
The Doctor. And this is actually canon.

idontknow
idontknow

@CodeBuns
I loved the Eternal Champion story. And I remembered liking a story of a questing knight exploring the Chaos borderlands and finding his way into a tower with a horny chick.

@Lunatick
That's good to know.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@idontknow
And I remembered liking a story of a questing knight exploring the Chaos borderlands and finding his way into a tower with a horny chick.
Earl Motherfucking Aubec. Oh what could have been,
What COULD
HAVE
BEEN
THIS IS WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN

EARL AUBEC OF MALADOR

Outline for a series
of four fantasy novels

(1966)

EARL AUBEC, CHAMPION of Lormyr, Earl of Malador, first appeared in the [attached] story “Master of Chaos” (originally called “Earl Aubec and the Golem”) in Fantastic, May 1964.
“Master of Chaos” will not be incorporated into the novels, but is [enclosed] to give some idea of the character and background etc., of the projected series.

Background

The world of Earl Aubec is The Age of the Bright Empire—the same as the world of Elric, only set some time earlier than the Elric stories. The Bright Empire is flourishing. It is the most powerful on Earth and the influence of the Dragon Princes of Imrryr is felt everywhere (though whenever possible they disdain contact with the race of true human beings of the Young Kingdoms). Elric’s ancestor, Gadric the Eleventh, moody son of Terhali, the Green Empress, sits on the Dragon Throne, close consort, it is rumoured, of the Dukes of Hell, particularly Arioch.
The Lords of Chaos, in fact, still have the greater part of the power over Earth. At the edges of the world, Chaos Unbound still exists (in “Master of Chaos,” Earl Aubec’s task was to make a little of that Chaosmatter stable).
The cosmology, therefore, is the same as the cosmology of the Elric stories, as is the basic geography [see attached map], but the Young Kingdoms have not yet risen to power and the Dreaming City of Imrryr dominates the world by virtue of her sorcery, her Dragon Masters, her golden battle-barges and her pact with Chaos.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@AwesomeTucker

Central Character

Earl Aubec of Malador is a big, powerful warrior in middle years, his sole companion his cat, who travels everywhere with him and has a great sense for danger when it threatens.
Aubec’s patron gods are the Lords of Law, and he has something of an ally in the sorceress Micella of Kaneloon whom he loves secretly and hopelessly, hardly daring to admit it to himself, for his loyalty, according to tradition, must be to the dead Queen Eloarde of Lormyr. (These characters also originally appear in “Master of Chaos.”)

Events

Earl Aubec, deprived of his lands by the machinations of Queen Eloarde’s half-brother Aradard, is an exile, roaming the world, sought by Aradard’s assassins (only Aubec witnessed the murder of Eloarde by her half-brother’s men), selling his sword, ready for a chance to win the fortune that will enable him to finance an army that he can lead back to Lormyr. His one abiding hope is that he will be able to wreak vengeance on Aradard, restore the throne to Eloarde’s young son Prince Haminak (who is, in fact, Aubec’s son, too) whom Aubec believes is still alive, having smuggled him from the palace himself before Aradard’s men found the boy.
All Aubec’s motivations, therefore, involve his need to raise an army to attack Aradard, his willingness to rob, murder or in other ways destroy or discomfort Aradard’s men, his wish to find his lost son Haminak.
But Micella has other motivations. She knows that Aubec has a particular quality of character which makes him an able champion against the Lords of Chaos and their efforts to retain control of the Earth as their domain. While she can never convince Aubec of the fact that he is a somewhat extraordinary kind of man, she can sometimes help him in his ambitions concerning Aradard and Haminak and therefore where her interests and his self-interest combine, she can sway him to work on behalf of her masters, the Lords of Law.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@whereismyname

The first book, therefore, deals with these main events and concerns.
Aubec arrives in Tanelorn (also described in an earlier story about Rackhir the Red Archer, “To Rescue Tanelorn…” in Science Fantasy No. 56) which is a city on the edge of the Sighing Desert. Tanelorn shelters many outcasts and has a peculiar nature, in that neither the forces of Law nor Chaos have any influence over the inhabitants. Here Aubec learns from a man who has come to recruit mercenaries that an army is being raised in Hikach, capital city of Argimiliar (a near neighbour of Lormyr), with a view to attacking Kachor, chief port of Lormyr. Aubec himself, as a much respected tactician and leader of warriors, is offered a fifth share of all loot if he will come in with the Argimilites.
Aubec has no love for the folk of Argimiliar, for they are the Lormyrians’ traditional foes, but the prospect of striking a blow at Aradard and raising money for his own army convinces him that he will throw in with the Argimilites.
In two weeks a boat will be leaving the port of Shad in Ilmiora. All the warriors must arrive by that time. The boat will take them to Hikach.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Lunatick

Several days later, as he readies himself for the journey, Aubec is approached by Micella the sorceress of Kaneloon. She tells him that the Melnibonéans, under the direction of the Lords of Chaos, are fomenting civil war amongst the Young Kingdoms. The raid on Kachor will spark this off and soon all the Young Kingdoms will be at war, threatening the development of the power of true human beings and enabling the Lords of Chaos to increase their power. Aubec must not help the Argimilites. He must, instead, try to stop the raid.
Aubec will have none of this. He is wary of the sorceress, knowing that her professed motives and her actual motives are not always the same. He sets off for Shad, arrives and boards the ship.
Their voyage takes them across the Dragon Sea, close to the Isle of the Dragon, Melniboné.
A storm—evidently of supernatural origin—blows up. The ship is wrecked on the dreadful coast of the Dragon Isle where no true human being would willingly set foot. Aubec and a small party of warriors survive. Everyone, including Aubec, is extremely fearful. Aubec sets them to building a raft, hoping that he will be able to get off the Dragon Isle before the inhuman Melnibonéans discover the intruders.
But it is too late. Dragon riders appear in the sky. Some of the warriors run and are destroyed by the flaming venom. Aubec stands his ground. The dragons land. Dyvim Kang, Dragon Prince, dismounts and haughtily approaches the little band, questioning them.
“Likely meat to feed our lord Arioch,” smiles one of the inhumanly handsome Melnibonéans. “Or perhaps they will furnish some more elaborate form of entertainment to lighten King Gadric’s gloom.”

viagrandad
viagrandad

@MPmaster

Dyvim Kang silences the man. He is interested in Aubec. Perhaps he recognizes in Aubec that peculiar quality of character already noted by Micella. “Are you a sorcerer?” he asks. “You have not the sorcerer’s manner?”
“I disdain sorcery,” answers Aubec, “just as I disdain all that Melniboné stands for. But my quarrel is not with the Bright Empire. Let me go on about my own business and you concern yourselves with yours. A small skiff’s all I need to get me to Hikach.”
“We are not in the habit of dispensing gifts to human folk,” Dyvim Kang says. “Why do you journey to Hikach?”
Aubec briefly tells him of the projected raid. Dyvim Kang nods. He already appears to know something of the Argimilites’ plans. He seems half-prepared to let Aubec have his skiff, but then thinks better of it and orders that the few remaining warriors be used for sport and Aubec be brought before the Dragon Throne.
There follows Aubec’s first confrontation with King Gadric the Eleventh, whose deep green pupilless eyes are a reminder that his mother was the near-immortal Terhali, the Green Empress. Gadric, too, is impressed with Aubec and summons a “friend.” The friend ap-pears—actually Lord Balan of Chaos—a youth of frightening beauty. Balan knows of Aubec, knows that the earl serves Donblas of Law (though Aubec is not aware of this). They ascertain that Aubec really is bent on aiding the Argimilites and this amuses them greatly. It dawns on Aubec that Micella was right—this raid is the creation of Melniboné and her gods. But Aubec, always obstinate, refuses to consider the implications. He will continue with his original plans.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@viagrandad

Aubec, by sorcerous means that he finds distasteful, is transported to Hikach. Here he prepares to sail against Kachor. The fleet sets sail. Micella appears with evidence that his son is held by King Ronon of Argimiliar—to ensure Aubec’s good faith should he change his mind en route.
Aubec is in a quandary. He doesn’t know whether to trust Micella’s word or not, whether to continue with the raid or rescue his son.
“Even if I did turn back now,” he tells Micella, “Ronon would have word of my coming and Haminak would be put to the sword—”
“—or worse,” agrees Micella. But she then tells him that he has an ally in a “certain person possessed of considerable power.”
“Why should this person aid me?”
“Because you aid him,” she replies.
Aubec is more than ordinarily suspicious as she hands him a bracelet of oddly glowing metal and tells him to wear it. Instead he casually places it as a collar around the neck of his cat. “Whose bracelet is this?” he asks. “Yours?”
“No.” She smiles mysteriously. “Where would you wish to be now?”
“Naturally, I would wish to be in Hikach, madam!” he replies pettishly.
The ship fades. He is in the streets of Hikach, his cat looking as startled as he feels. He is furious, convinced he has been duped by Micella. The cat runs off in fright. Aubec decides to investigate Ronon’s castle and manages to sneak in. Searching the castle at night he can find no trace of his son and is doubly convinced of Micella’s treachery.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@w8t4u

Seized suddenly by Ronon’s guards, Aubec fights his way free. But then he is trapped by Ronan’s tame Pan Tang sorcerer. Ronon is furious. Aubec’s son is not in the castle—the sorcerer has seen to that. He is in the city of Nieva, in the Argimilian hinterland, bound by spells. Now the boy will perish!
Ronon has Aubec chained in his armour over a slow fire. “We are going to cook you in your own shell.”
The sorcerer leaves for Nieva to deal with the boy.
Ronon glowers. Aubec’s turncoat trick might well have lost him the spoils of Kachor.
Aubec roasts. He is half-dead when his cat arrives, somewhat sheepishly, having found his master at last. Aubec decides to try out the bracelet and orders himself free. The chains drop off him. He uses the brazier as a weapon to fight Ronon’s guards, gets his own great sword back, mounts a horse, the cat clinging to his shoulder, and rides for Nieva.
But in Nieva the sorcerer has gone, taking Aubec’s son with him, for the sorcerer has plans to use the boy for his own purposes, as a pawn in a plot to rob Ronon of the Treasure of the Pikaraydians, which Ronon himself stole from his neighbouring monarch in the last great border battle on the banks of the River Jepchak. By holding the Pikaraydian Treasure (which has a mystical significance as well as a material value) Ronon ensures that he keeps Pikarayd in thrall. The sorcerer knows that with the Treasure he will have power over both Ronon and Pikarayd. But he needs Aubec’s help in his scheme and has thus kidnapped the boy with a view to ensuring that Aubec will work for him (he has heard that Aubec was on his way).
Aubec meets the sorcerer and reluctantly agrees to aid him.
The Pikarayd Treasure lies in Ronon’s secret vaults hidden in the caverns of the Shivering Cliffs that flank the River Marr far to the south of Nieva.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@TreeEater

Aubec and his cat set off for the Shivering Cliffs, Aubec unreasonably blaming his present plight on Micella, for he suspects her hand in the plot since Kaneloon is not far from the Shivering Cliffs.
He reaches the Shivering Cliffs and enters battle with the various sorcerous and semi-sorcerous guardians (the Pan Tang sorcerer has given him a couple of protective runes), eventually reaching the Treasure. Lashing the treasure chests to the backs of the strange half-human creatures he has released at the same time, Aubec begins the slow journey back to Nieva. Soon he will be reunited with his son. He is also considering a scheme whereby, once he has his son, he can turn the tables on the sorcerer and get the Treasure for himself, thus enabling him to raise an army against Aradard.
On the second night of his journey back, he stops at the walled town of Oonak-Rass.
Unbeknownst to Aubec, Count Palag Fhak and his men have been trailing him. Palag Fhak is the cleverest and most courageous of Aradard’s assassins. He had heard that Aubec was in the Southlands and has at last tracked him down.
In a tavern Aubec’s cat warns him of the danger. Aubec is set upon by Palag Fhak’s men. There is a brutal fight. Wounded, Aubec manages to escape from Oonak-Rass with the best part of the treasure train, running into the night.
Count Palag Fhak pursues him, but he manages to keep ahead of the assassins, eventually getting back to the tower where he has agreed to meet the sorcerer.
To ensure that the sorcerer keeps his part of the bargain, Aubec has left his treasure train hidden in a forest. He will tell the sorcerer where the Treasure is when he sees his son free. The sorcerer is disconcerted. Palag Fhak’s men attack the tower.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Emberfire

There is a big battle, involving the assassins in fighting the sorcerer and the minions he summons from the nether regions. Aubec uses the confusion to get to the room where his son is kept.
He embraces the boy and then lets out a shout of horror.
The sorcerer has duped him. The boy is nothing more than a changeling—a creature created by sorcery—a simulacrum of the actual child. Aubec weeps and returns to have his vengeance on the sorcerer, who tells him that there was no real child. Ronon had him create the mindless and soulless changeling. Aubec destroys the sorcerer and leaves Palag Fhak to be devoured by the last and mightiest of the sorcerer’s creatures. Aubec wants only vengeance on Ronon now, for the terrible trick played on him.

He returns to Hikach just as the defeated fleet is docking. Ronon is furious. Aubec is again captured on the quayside but notes that there are several Pikaraydian ships there, full of evil-tempered Pikaraydian sailors who have joined the venture only because Ronon has forced them to. Aubec tells them that the Treasure of Pikarayd is no longer in Ronon’s keeping. If they aid him, he will tell them where it is.
A battle begins, with most of the mercenaries siding with Aubec and the Pikaraydians against Ronon.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@TurtleCat

Ronon is slain and his city is sacked.
Micella appears, telling Aubec that Ronon was the chief threat to the uneasy stability of the Southern Young Kingdoms. Now Ronon is dead, the main threat is over. But the Lords of Chaos are still scheming to create more trouble.
Aubec is sour. He has been cheated of a reconciliation with his son. He has lost the Treasure of Pikarayd. He has been duped and used as a pawn by half a score of different interests. All he has is his cat and the ridiculous bracelet, which he mistrusts.
Micella begs him to join forces with her, telling Aubec that it is in his own interest. But Aubec will have none of her.
Completely unimpressed that he has been the means of stopping a destructive war, Aubec rides off with his cat on his shoulder, still bent on finding his lost son and the means of having his vengeance on his old enemy Aradard.
As he goes, Micella smiles to herself as she sees the sun glint on the collar that the cat still wears.

Rest of the Series

Through three further books—The Chronicle of Earl Aubec—we will trace Aubec’s adventures, his quest for his son and his attempts to avenge Eloarde. Gradually the issues will build until the final book where he is responsible for exiling the Lords of Chaos from Earth and sowing the seeds that will eventually lead to the decline of Melnibonéan power: The formation of the Lormyrian Confederacy which throws off the shackles of the Bright Empire.
This will also leave room for further tales concerning The Age of the Bright Empire, gradually, perhaps, leading up to The Age of the Young Kingdoms and the earlier adventures of Elric of Melniboné.

@idontknow
There ya go. Use this stuff as part of your next campaign if ya want.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@AwesomeTucker
Yup, that's the one.

@AwesomeTucker
I probably will never get around to playing another campaign any time soon, but thanks anyway, user.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Flameblow
I wished it picked another

farquit
farquit

@Need_TLC
To be its killing tool

w8t4u
w8t4u

@farquit
Black

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@w8t4u
BLADE

JunkTop
JunkTop

@LuckyDusty
Black

whereismyname
whereismyname

@JunkTop
BLADE

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@whereismyname
Forged a billion years ago (black)

idontknow
idontknow

@Crazy_Nice
BLADE

Playboyize
Playboyize

@idontknow
Killing so its power can grow

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Playboyize
Grow

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Nude_Bikergirl
THE WINDS OF TIME ARE FLOWING THROUGH ME.

I'm so glad to finally find another Hawkwind fan.

Also, The Doctor of Doctor Who is officially part of the mythos, Moorplots having written a Doctor Who novel, I forget which, but it had a Mister Cornelius show up.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Stupidasole
There's death from the beginning

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@New_Cliche
To the end of time

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@King_Martha
I mean, as the Champion he will fight against both sides, but each Champion has a destiny to fulfill. Elric's was to destroy Chaos so that the forces of Law got a chance in his world, Cornelius' is to be a force of Chaos in a world that is threatened to be overrun by order.

FastChef
FastChef

@Poker_Star

I'm the Cosmic Champion

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@FastChef
And I hold the mystic sign

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Fuzzy_Logic

And the whole world's dying

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@5mileys
Ciri. She literally travels through times and planes to stab shit.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Need_TLC
Final Fantasy sort of does the same thing with the warrior of light.

Guess their success isn't guaranteed though. There's that one warrior of light from the first(?) universe who did his job so well that they world was flooded by light and destroyed.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Gigastrength
Underrated post.

massdebater
massdebater

@Emberburn
I sense the salt flows string in this one.....

Supergrass
Supergrass

@RumChicken
He's saved the world more times than he can count, now he just wants it to end.

Too many lives lived, too many faces with forgotten names.

Maybe this time I'll finally join them.

I'm sorry.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@Supergrass
My energy is spent at last and armor is destroyed.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@PackManBrainlure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYLdnpwZ4Q0

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@PackManBrainlure
I have used up all my weapons

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@kizzmybutt
And the burden's mine!

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Need_TLC
white hair
Check
Special sword
Check

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

Is HE the eternal champion?

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@LuckyDusty
The bandana around his head is actually a special optic fabric that gives him flawless vision. So it's basically a magical eye.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@ZeroReborn
Elric's destiny was to make sure neither Law or Chaos got complete dominance over the world and he succeeded. Both the forces of Law and Chaos were banished. The Balance was summoned and the scales were set.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@PackManBrainlure
And the black sword keeps on killing

girlDog
girlDog

@whereismyname
'Til the end of time!

hairygrape
hairygrape

@BinaryMan
Funny, I really like the simplicity of the Gollancz covers. To each his own.

I can't stand minimalistic book covers, especially when I know that they have access to the art assets that they use as to the icons.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@girlDog
BLACK BLADE

WebTool
WebTool

@Supergrass
BLACK

idontknow
idontknow

@Boy_vs_Girl
Does anyone happen to know any other tracks with such mentally vivid lyrics? I just knocked out like three sessions worth of content based on the lyrics of that track.
Something with that psychedelic fantasy vibe, with nice poetic flowery language.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@WebTool
BLADE

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Crazy_Nice
published his semi autobiography
This is not a point in their favor. It's SO bad.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@PackManBrainlure

BRINGING CHAOS TO THE WORLD WE KNOW!

Supergrass
Supergrass

@cum2soon
(black blade)
And it's using me to kill my friends!

Techpill
Techpill

@Sir_Gallonhead
It's a mess but hey, if they did him a better deal with publishing his old material then who are we to complain?

Centipede Press is doing something soon which i'm looking forward to.

TechHater
TechHater

@Burnblaze
Balance was, in fact, not achieved. The only thing Elric achieved was clean the slate to prevent Chaos from winning completely in that world, and it's heavily implied that he in the process created our world, or a world very similar to it.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@TechHater
So does that mean Corum>Elric? After all, Xiombarg's 5 planes/worlds and Mabelode's ones were even more completely controlled by Chaos than Elric's one world was, and Corum breaks all of their grips without dying in the process.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@TechHater
Balance was, in fact, not achieved.
Well it was. The entity that is Stormbringer has an agenda of its own separate from the rest of Chaos.
@Raving_Cute
Corum has a better arsenal in the first trilogy. The Hand and Eye are exceptionally powerful but Stormbringer is the mother of all bullshit OP swords.
Urlik >All of them if you're going by strength. He gets to wield one of the most powerful versions of the sword.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@Raving_Cute
After all, Xiombarg's 5 planes/worlds and Mabelode's ones were even more completely controlled by Chaos than Elric's one world was,
Not really the case, not if you're going by what goes on in Stormbringer where the Apocalypse goes down.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Soft_member
What does Stormbringer's agenda have to do with anything? Balance isn't restored by Elric, he only creates the conditions for a new world where the forces of Law has a better chance.

The Balance is in fact never restored. It's ultimate destiny being to be destroyed by John Daker to stop the Game of Time completely.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@kizzmybutt
? Balance isn't restored by Elric, he only creates the conditions for a new world where the forces of Law has a better chance.
Dude. I got the book right in front of me.

He took the horn and put it to his lips. He blew the blast to herald in the night of the new earth. The night that would precede the new dawn. And though the horn's note was triumphant, Elric was not. He stood full of infinite loneliness and infinite sorrow, his head tilted back as the sound rang on. And, when the note faded from triumph to a dying echo that expressed something of Elric's misery, a huge outline began to form in the sky above the earth, as if summoned by the horn.

It was the outline of a gigantic hand holding a balance and, as he watched, the balance began to right itself until each side was true.

And somehow this relieved Elric's sorrow as he released his grip on the Horn of Fate.

Text itself states that the scales are set right and Balance reigns.
. It's ultimate destiny being to be destroyed by John Daker to stop the Game of Time completely.
That's only with the Quest for Tanelorn material. By Son of the Wolf, the Balance is revealed to be both meaningless and at the same time, all important.
Oh, and John Daker IS the Son of the Wolf.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Sharpcharm
And i'm helpless and bereaved,

Wound are all i'm made of.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@PackManBrainlure
Viking dude is refereed to as The Last Dragonborn.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@GoogleCat
war flamingo

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Illusionz
Video game called Joust. Look it up.

Emberburn
Emberburn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwjQH5xFBok

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Emberburn
Patrician at work

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Illusionz
There is a scene in Hawkmoon where knights on Hudge Flamingos fight Thopters, it is pretty epic.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@LuckyDusty
Why not? The Apocalypse WENT down, and the Lords of Law were banished, and Chaos ruled supreme. In that plane that Corum visits, Xiombarg had so thoroughly ruled it that it had become a sterile plane, Chaos having "exhausted its creativity".

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

If Law wins it creates a desert, place of perfect law where everything is still. If chaos wins it creates a pridemorial soup where nothing ever has a solid shape and everything is forever moving. Basiclly you are fucked eather way. I feel that like a vibe in his "Fantasy" novels, whatever you do you are fucked. Regardless of the hero we are talking about, every choice they make makes them fucked in one way or another.

TechHater
TechHater

@PurpleCharger
That's the point. Only in conflict is there satisfaction of purpose. That's the EC is always fighting and never at rest.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@PurpleCharger
I like to think of it as that things are always at the risk of going to shit and it's the eternal effort that prevents that from happening.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

Guys, anyone has that Corum comic?

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Harmless_Venom
Nah.

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