Paizo Games General /pgg/ (also /pfg/)

>friend wants to DM PF
>decide on an alchemist because why not
>have friend make my character sheet
>emails me the character and tells me I need to buy a mule or something to carry all my stuff since I am near max carry load
>look up all my individual gear and weigh it myself and it puts me in barely medium load
>confront friend about this oversight
>tells me that in PF things weigh much less than he thinks it should so he altered the weight to his liking

Well that's one game I'm not playing but seriously is PF designed specifically for sadist/masochist?

Does anybody even have that? I haven't heard anything to indicate it's up yet.

I wanna play a Drow idol!

Some DM's are retards. Shit happens.

Most of the measurements for things in PF are based off of real world measurements, at least when it comes to things like weight. What, did he think that 3 lbs was too light for a sword?

>an alchemist sheet
>that's at medium load

What, did the hoe give you a pussy bomber instead of a stronk Vivesectionist? Also that gm sounds like a faggot, and his chargen proficiency must be garbage.

Most weapons in PF actually weigh MUCH more than their real life counterparts.

So how will you deal with the fact that only reasonable way to play Starfinder is the adventure path?

It's for a few different kinds of people. First and foremost, it's for people who started playing 3.5 and never wanted to stop. These people don't see the complexity in Pathfinder's rules because they've become second nature through 15+ years of practice. This means that they need some kind of complexity they CAN sense to stimulate their minds and their need for strategic choices they haven't already "solved." As a result, Pathfinder has built up even more cruft and splat material than 3.5 ever had, and only new players can even notice.

To make matters worse, Paizo originally had a more-is-more philosophy when rebalancing 3.5 into Pathfinder in the first place. Fighters are weaker than wizards? No problem, we'll just add more features to fighters. Oh, and we'll also add more features to wizards because it seems unfair if they don't get something, too.

Basically certain items like armor, sling, and bullets were 2 to 2.5 times their weight. Also made it that as a dwarf you still suffered reduced movement speed because otherwise the dwarf is a packmule that is too OP

>What, did the hoe give you a pussy bomber instead of a stronk Vivesectionist?
I went grenadier I don't like being a minmaxing tryhard as having flaws is fun

Your GM is retarded but you honestly don't sound much better.

Yeah you're right I'll play games better than 3.51

>I went grenadier I don't like being a minmaxing tryhard as having flaws is fun
>he says as a grenadier, the most basic bitch minmaxy archetype for bombers
>also implying that vivesectionists don't have glaring flaws
Well if that wasn't the most faggot bullshit I ever saw. If you didn't want to be a gamebreaker on damage just pick up a real weapon instead of going natural attacks you pussy.

And you sound like cancer. You can feel free to fuck off whenever.

>why play a shitty fighter when you can play a shitty rogue
And people actually enjoy this

Okay.

Except both archetypes are incredibly good fighter and rogue replacements. Shit the alchemist class in general is pretty well designed.

Why isn't there more mundane items for Starfinder than just two pages?

Because it is core rulebook and it cannot spare many pages for minor things

>a shitty Rogue
>when the alchemist is superior to rogue in every way, even when unchained
>implying even post AAT/AWT fighter is safe from being a dumpster fire of a class

I don't have a smug enough anime girl or a good enough bait fish for the sheer volume of idiocy I'm witnessing.

>instead of going full rogue and getting all the benefits I will take this archetype to get 1 rogue feature

Its shit you mong.

Fish people? Yes. Giant? Not really.

Also here's the information on BIG STUPID JELLYFISH.

Same reason we didn't get to see a lot of mundane items in the Pathfinder CRB, because that stuff's going to get trickling in over the next year.

>are based off of real world measurements
A fucking katana weights 6 lb, 6 motherfuckig lbs, you know how much weights a katana in real life? less than 2lb. Weights from PF come from 3.5, and weights in 3.5 are shit and usually double of what it's irl

Ok No, you don't get trapfinding, whatever will you do without such a valuable class feature worth so much more than your self-buffing and enormous array of other abilities?
Just be a Slayer if all you want is SA Anand trapfinding, fag

Rogue doesn't have any benefits you fucking retard.

Being an alchemist nets you
>Mutagens(free self buff, AC boost, stat boost)
>natural attacks which synergize with your sneak attack much more than weapon attacks because you aren't wasting feats on the shitty TWF tree
>Extracts(6th level spell casting essentially which includes stuff like invisibility, which means more sneak attacks)
>Discoveries which are functionally rogue talents except many of them are actually useful
>being intelligence based means you'll have slightness skill points than a fucking rogue(1 to 2 points difference with a +3 int modifer)

Compared to rogue which gets you.
>trapfinding(near worhless bonus to perception)
>evasion(something that can be acquired
or fucking BUILT as a magic item)
>uncanny dodge

>Grenadier
>not minmaxing tryhard
Does not compute
Do you mean you didn't want to think? that you want to go autowin mode and massbutton with no thought process behind? in that case, yes, you didn't "minmax" you went autowin mode, congrats

>Rogue+++++ with spells that puts him in Tier2-3
>Shitty
What the actual fuck? Vivisectionist is like billion times better than rogue, and fighter, together. Arguably better than barb too.

Different user here, What's so great about grenadier. I played one and it was honestly really underwhelming.

Just pick the trait that gives you trapfinding (and magic traps) bro, that, you killed the rogue completely.

So is it this easy to bait in 3.finders or did I just get lucky?

>I was just pretending to be retarded!

what is YOUR reason for not listening to post-kepler astrojazz over regressive skumpa-beats?

>Just pick the trait that gives you trapfinding (and magic traps) bro,
That's a campaign trait no sane GM will let you have outside of the AP it's featured in.

That's like saying just take "Finding your kin bro!"

>whats so great
You don't even roll to hit (well, you do, but is touch AC), you create areas of fuck you both with damage, impairing effects, etc while ignoring your friendos.

Grenadier is one of the best CC classes around. I had one with the ability of pop two bombs per turn, while also flying over them, good lord

Guess I'm going to assume its just that easy then.

>He doesn't listen to Vercite ether-ballads or Aballonian Euphonics

What are you, an Akitonian?

When there's no mechanics discussion for dozens of threads, just circlejerks about waifus, biting hard on the bait ends up really attractive for non-lewdfags as a way to cope with the crushing despair of their situation.

Taking the bait is more engaging than the average thread topic, because then you get to go back and break things down.

>tfw I have Trap Finder and I'm not playing that campaign
Jealous, bro?

>only 17 layers of sound
get out of my face man

OH BABY

>Pathfinder has built up even more cruft and splat material than 3.5 ever had
In some places, yes, but I don't think that's the case for the most part -- unless we're counting all the softcover setting and player companion pieces.

3.5 had an absolutely gigantic library, even without counting the Eberron and Forgotten Realms stuff. 3.5 had slightly more classes than Pathfinder does, even if we exclude stuff that only appeared in the Miniatures Handbook (the healer and marshal) and include Pathfinder's variant classes (ninja, samurai, and antipaladin). There might be more archetypes in Pathfinder than there were prestige classes in 3.5, but I sure as fuck don't want to count either of them.

The worst of Pathfinder's bloat, at least compared with 3.5, is limited to three areas: bestiaries, published adventures, and setting material. There are so many redundant monsters, and I'd hate to imagine how many marathon game sessions it would take to play through all of the adventure paths.

Now, it's worth noting, Pathfinder's publication life has already been longer than 3.5's. Wizards of the Coast launched 3.5 in 2003 and stopped producing new content for it with the launch of 4th Edition in 2008 (and had no real content for 3.5 for several months before that). Paizo launched Pathfinder in 2009.

>, but is touch AC
This isn't really a big plus. People really underestimate how high this shit climbs for a 3/4ths bab class that an't augment their attacks with magic items.
>ou both with damage, impairing effects
Bomb damage isn't spectacular unless you blow it all in two encounters.

Effects are fair, but why not be any other caster?

>touch AC
>Climbs
average touch AC of a CR 1 monster is 12
average touch AC of a CR 20 monster is 12

Early level touch AC is annoying to deal with. After level about 5th, bad players/GMs will have an aneurysm over mystic fucking bolts because a guy using rapid shot + TWF landed all his iteratives at 9th level, despite doing fuckall damage.

That's more because of the handful of monsters with touch AC's in the double digits dragging the average down. Maybe my DM just fucking inflates touch AC or uses monster that have high touch.

As a magus with accurate strike, I tell you you're full of shit, spending 2 arcane points to target touch AC is the best thing ever

*single digits
Obviously, sorry.

While I don't have a whole lot of experience leafing through APs, as far as I can tell touch AC typically lags super far behind, and AP-tier encounters are far more likely to be the norm for games. That (and PFS) is where Paizo comes at balance from, hence why Gunslinger OF ALL FUCKING CLASSES kept getting nerfed.

As I see it, the main issue with monster skill math in Starfinder lies in two points:

Across the skill chapter, various DCs have a base DC equal to 15 + 1.5 times the target's CR. This includes the base for Acrobatics DCs, Bluff DCs to feint, Diplomacy DCs, and Intimidate DCs. These are just the *base* DCs, and they can already be daunting.

As per page 326 of the core rulebook, a monster's "good skill" modifiers equal 4 + 1.5 times the monster's CR, and their "master skill" modifiers are equal to 9 + 1.5 times the monster's CR.
• The CR 20 space goblin monark in the core rulebook lines up with this. It has three good skills at +34 and a master skill at +39.
• Most monsters in First Contact with a CR of 1 or above line up with this. CR 1 space pirate crew members have good skills at +6 and master skills at +11. CR 2 contemplatives have good at +7 and master at +12. CR 3 haan have good at +8 and master at +13. CR 4 ksariks and security robots have good skills at +10 and master skills at +15. CR 6 orocorans have good at +13 and master at +18. CR 7 bloodbrothers have good at +14. CR 9 ellicoths have good at +17 and master at +22. CR 13 necrovites have good at +23 and master at +28. The two exceptions are the CR 4 space pirate captain and the CR 5 sarcesian, which have good and master modifiers 1 higher than they should have.
• As we can see from the space goblin monark and the First Contact monsters, Perception is almost always a good or master skill.

PCs start off on good footing against monsters, but the scaling of 1.5 times CR will rapidly screw over PCs. Monster skill modifiers and DCs are daunting by 8th level, and even an operative will have difficulty keeping up past that point. Let us have a look at what PCs have to deal with at CR 8 and above:

• CR 8: Base Acrobatics DC 27, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 27 (31 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +16, master skill +21

• CR 9: Base Acrobatics DC 28, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 28 (22 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +17, master skill +22

• CR 10: Base Acrobatics DC 30, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 30 (34 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +19, master skill +24

• CR 11: Base Acrobatics DC 31, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 31 (35 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +20, master skill +25

• CR 12: Base Acrobatics DC 33, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 33 (37 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +22, master skill +27

• CR 13: Base Acrobatics DC 34, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 34 (38 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +23, master skill +28

• CR 14: Base Acrobatics DC 36, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 36 (40 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +25, master skill +30

• CR 15: Base Acrobatics DC 37, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 37 (41 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +26, master skill +31

• CR 16: Base Acrobatics DC 39, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 39 (43 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +28, master skill +33

• CR 17: Base Acrobatics DC 40, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 40 (44 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +29, master skill +34

• CR 18: Base Acrobatics DC 42, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 42 (46 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +31, master skill +36

• CR 19: Base Acrobatics DC 43, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 43 (47 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +32, master skill +37

• CR 20: Base Acrobatics DC 45, base Diplomacy/Intimidate DC 45 (49 if Diplomacy/Intimidate is a master skill), good skill +34, master skill +39

How are these numbers supposed to be reasonable considering the lack of easy skill bonuses in Starfinder?

Highest touch AC in the game is 41 and a CR 28 monster has it. Highest touch AC at CR 1 is 18, and increases (curiously) 1 point at each CR, the lowest is not very low. Yet the average is 12. What does this tell us? that there're more monsters with low touch AC than monsters with high AC, so targeting touch AC will be easier on average.

Each Pathfinder character has way more moving parts when you take into account traits, variant classes, and class-specific modular bits. Each class is usually designed to have at least one kind of special modular bit, sometimes two, and that's not even counting spells.

Giantlayer campaign when?

I'd argue Pathfinder has less bullshit, but that's more because the bullshit seems to be the biggest thing people remember from 3.5e. There was just SO MUCH abusable stuff (old polymorphs, innumerable PrCs) mixed in with the cool shit (Int based monks, warlocks, changelings, rangers not being boring shit).

There's going to be facestealers in among the stars, mark my words.

Not him, but 3.5 also had traits (different name, don't remember it), variant classes, etc.

"Going to," user?

Macrophage plz run a Macross canpaign

Oh, shit, I forgot about these guys. They're better at infiltrating than I thought.

>How are these numbers supposed to be reasonable considering the lack of easy skill bonuses in Starfinder?

Seems pretty reasonable.
Lvl 20 Envoy:
20 Ranks, +4 for 18 Cha, +2d8+4 expertise (+13avg), do class skills still give a +3 bonus like Pathfinder? if so add that in.

+37-40 without any helpful magic/tech items, skill focus feats, spells, or aid another bonuses.

And anyone not a skill monkey can go fuck themselves?

>I'd hate to imagine how many marathon game sessions it would take to play through all of the adventure paths.
Isn't "too much available content to play" the best possible problem to have? None of the APs are bad.

Envoy is worse at being a skill monkey than half the other classes.

Envoy memeing is reaching new heights it seems

Not really, in a limited selection of skills, envoy is better.

LIMITED selection.

>none of the APs are bad
I'm sorry, what? Did people like Council of Thieves?

But... Grenadier is barely bomb-focused. Really the only bomb ability it gets is Directed Blast, and Staggering Blast requires you to crit with a 20/x2 weapon (which STILL allows for a fort save). It's better for melee combat if anything.

The thing is you trade useless shit for a discovery you want anyway (precise bombs) on top of a bunch of bonus shit like a potential backup weapon (usually longbow). It's a straight upgrade for bombers.

Hylax, Iomedae, Sarenrae, Yaraesa, Desna, Pharasma, Triune, Besmara, Lao Shu Po, Urgathoa are female goddesses.

Weydan, Abadar, Eloritu, Oras, Damaritosh, Zon-Kuthon, The Devourer and Nyarlathotep are male gods.

Ibra and arguably Nyaralothep are gender neutral.

>5/6 of the GOOD deities are female, with the sole exception being Weydan, a deity noted for being genderfluid.
>4/8 of the NEUTRAL deities are female, 3/8 of them are male, and Ibra is gender neutral.
>2/6 of the EVIL deities are female, being Lao Shu Po and Urgathoa. 4/6 (or 3/6, depending on your perception of Nyaralothep) are male

As for L/N/C?
>Both LG deities are female, LN is divided 50/50, and both LE are male
>Both NG deities are female, N is 2 female, 1 neutral and 1 male, and both NE are female
>CG is divided 50/50, CN is divided 50/50, and CE is either male or 50 male/50 neutral

Name one AP that isn't absolute shit at least in some parts.

Sounds about right. Women are just cuter than men.

The second module is excellent and the rest is mediocre at worst.

Wrath of the Righteous

Not nearly as many. And most 3.5 classes didn't have that style of class where every other level you choose a modular ability off of a list specially made for that class, in the vein of magus arcana or alchemist discoveries. 3.5 rogues only had tricks at high levels, and some later 3,5 classes like the warlock experimented with that model, but in Pathfinder it's the rule. Class X gives you a new X Doodle every even-numbered level, and every single book printed after class X comes out has a dozen new X Doodles in it, so when it's time to pick an X Doodle you have to sort through a pile of books and figure out where the doodles are in each one.

>depending on your perception of Nyaralothep
Can confirm, I'm fairly sure both Nyarlathotep and Shub'Niggurath are female

I guess? I always just preferred taking Mindchemist and getting that sweet double Int to damage from Targeted Bomb Admixture. Even better if the DM allows Kirin Strike to stack with it.

It is not that bad
It has nice comfy feel to it

Real talk...

Would your character let their daughter leave the house dressed like that?

Absolutely not, just because my wife dresses like a whore does not mean my daughter will.

Only if she could pull it off. If she hasn't the figure for such things, it can't be helped.

Besides Mythic being Mythic, Iomedae being an absolute cunt for literally no reason, and token trans NPCs being shit, there are other issues.

No. Weather and illness are a serious concern, and she would surely come down with something with little to no covering. That's also not appropriate dress according to most societies in which she would settle, so dressing like that wouldn't be acceptable.

>And anyone not a skill monkey can go fuck themselves?

Well, yes? It's a skill monkey for a reason, you know. Envoy is the Investigator/Bard of Starfinder, why are you surprised that it does really well at Face Skills? Touhou user was literally posting and moaning about Diplomacy and Intimidate, the Envoy's forte. Yeah, I expect the Envoy to handle that sort of thing, not the Soldier who dumped Charisma.

Maybe, just MAYBE Starfinder won't be a One-Class-Trumps-All situation, and a party of different classes will have to work together to cover their individual weaknesses.

NOT SO FAST! This information is incomplete! The CRB also notes the existence of other gods besides those ones! You forgot

>Angarado, LG male
>Arshea, NG genderfluid
>Black Butterfly, CG female
>Eldest, N varies
>Calistria, CN female
>Groetus, CN Male
>Asmodeus, LE male
>Lissala, LE female
>Lamashtu, CE female

This adds NINE more deities, including 3 more males and 4 more females and 2 more "other."

>token trans NPCs being shit
As far as I'm aware there's only one and she stops being relevant in any real capacity past the first goddamn book.

>deity noted for being genderfluid
so when will people get butthurt over this

I'm pretty butthurt over this.

Aren't a lot of gods known for appearing to mortals in a variety of shapes and forms?