Thread question: how successful is winning by scenario in your local group?
Wyatt Cooper
Scenario? It just get in the way of assassination.
Jackson Martin
remove ghost shot. LOS and positioning are the fucking foundations of mini wargaming, and unconditionally ignoring them both is cancer.
Mason Gomez
... Why did I bother making this dust collector so cool?
Landon Campbell
>how successful is winning by scenario in your local group? Pretty much all of our games are decided by assassination or a failed attempt thereof, BECAUSE of scenario pressure. Which means to imply that actually everyone is building with scenario in mind in my meta.
I retroactively kind of enjoy how attrition and scenario became the same playstyle in 2017, because that's kind of how it should be.
Yes, you can still to play lists that hardlock your opponent for a turn while your rake points or lists that just shit the board full with stuff your opponent will never remove before their army dies away.
But generally, going for scenario with list that has lasting power is right approach.
As a side note, I actually think the best win-condition in the game at the moment, is the clock. Always keep your clock in mind, should you be using one.
I don't think Ghost Shot is an issue as an overall rule. Nobody ever complains about Eiryss1's Phantom Bolt.
But put it on multiple dudes, which can abuse a synergy to make them game changing on their own? If anything is a problem, this is.
Chase Adams
Probably had something to do with the entire second half of 2016, where it was arguably the best model in the game.
Logan Green
No, that was the Mad Dog. The Berserker was crap since it's conception.
Landon Diaz
>The Berserker was crap since it's conception. What about that one time when Vlad snuck through the woods with ALL of the berserkers into llael so that he could vipe and vash the vindows?
Xavier Sullivan
That didn't go very well, because the MAT 5 warjacks who aren't allowed to boost couldn't hit any of the windows.
Vlad could've done it solo, but he unfortunately got stuck in the entrance door.
Josiah Kelly
so I'm trying to get the Prime Conflux to work, since I hate myself, and it got me thinking: when measuring LOS, do you measure volume or bases? Because its gun makes it seem like volume, since it mentions intersecting model bases taking damage, but normally bases either aren't intersecting very much or they're actually touching. In which case them being the same size means you can't really do much of anything.
PP specifies that for terrain you measure volume, but they don't really say what you measure when you're targetting from a Huge-based model to a smaller-based model.
Ayden Sanders
There are no special rules for huge based models when targeting others, normal LOS applies. The inverse is where things change, as you can basically always draw LOS to a huge based model, even through clouds and forests.
Parker Baker
that's.... pretty fucking stupid, actually. if your models have volume values assigned to them for measurement purposes, wouldn't it make more sense to ALWAYS use those values? Why does one value work in one situation, but not in another?
Noah Diaz
Honestly? It would break the game. It would become way too easy for bigger models to shoot support solos and warnouns in the back lines.
"Then why didn't they balance the game so that bigger models could see over smaller ones?"
Who knows. It would definitely have been a different game. Maybe PP tried it with regular LoS and didn't like it.
David Ward
Actually that's the point. The same rules applied to everything generally.
Nathan Stewart
Skorne - Imperial Warhost
For every 30 points of warbeasts and battle engines in this army, you can add one Agonizer or Basilisk Krea warbeasts to the army free of cost. Free warbeasts do not count toward the total point value of warbeasts in the army when calculating this bonus.
Matthew Allen
>plastic Scattergunners are a different size than the metal UA >the metal dudes look terribly out of proportion with the new dudes YAMERO
Angel Bailey
bampin
Isaiah Ramirez
Is that the new berserker chassis kit with the three options? If so how does the model compare to the old metal ones, been thinking of picking up three if there alright.
Ryder Gonzalez
If you play Warmachine with plastic models, you're doing it wrong.
Jack Gray
Is there any restriction on units and solos? Because if not then it really does lend credence to the salty Skorne players who think they've been playing at a points disadvantage all this time.
Michael Anderson
Fuck off, metal is a god damn terrible hobby material to work with
Free Agonizer or Krea every 30 pts of warbeasts/battle engines Paingiver Beast Handlers gain Reposition 3" Deployment +2"
Gabriel Thompson
Just like Skorne's community.
Daniel Rivera
so heavy metal but for red guys instead of blue guys. okay cool.
Mason Hill
Aye, it is.
I only had one metal berserker in my hand once, but I really like this plastic kit. It's also bigger and looks hulkier than a metal berserker (the metal berserker, similar to the old metal Juggernaut chassis, looks like it's crouchin inwards, making itself look smaller).
The material itself isn't bent all over the place, because it's the new good plastic. You get all the parts you need and they even give you 4 surplus Spikes, because they are easy to lose. I really like that all the parts in the frames are liked together by numbers in the frame, to tell you what goes where and that the Mad Dog, Rager and Berserker arms and head have are in different frames, so there's no way to accidentally use the wrong head.
Assembling that thing doesn't take long and the only negatives I have, are the big gaplines. Because for some reason, everything is split horizontally across the model, meaning there will be a long line right in the middle of the head, right in the middle of the body, arms, legs and so on. Use green stuff or live with that.
The thing is poseable, but the default stance is right leg lifted slightly backwards to run and the arms aren't straight. If you want a straight slashing arm or a standing lower body, you have to do work. I personally think the running default pose works well when it stands next to the stiff Juggernaut Chassis.
Overall, it's a great plastic kit and I have in fact bought two, one for a Rager and one for a Berserker. The only real problem it has are the rules for the model inside it. No matter how nice a model is, if it sucks on the table, nobody should buy it.
Jack Wilson
Pretty much.
Joseph Wright
I'm just getting into the game and I'm planning on getting another caster soon and I'm looking at Mortenebra2. What are some good things that work with her?
Robert Martin
Nothing cause she's shit. You might want to look at another caster.
On a serious note, she's a rough one. She'll want arc node/s for Curse of Shadows. Don't bank on her feat, its trash. Failsafe will be case once, and just upkept. Locomotion will be situational. Spellpiercer and Curse of Shadows will basically be what you use the most. Which tends you towards guns arguably. She can be run in both Ghost Fleet or Infernal Machines, but she won't be the best option in either. She also likes the inflictor to keep her safe.
Isaiah Butler
So no Willbreakers? What the heck?
Luis Cooper
>Haha dude you spent hundreds on models that aren't as good as everyone else's and we aren't going to do anything about it It's not really being toxic if there's a legitimate grievance.
Adam Morris
In all fairness you get 19+ free points off this.
Ryder King
Holy fuck you finally got enough posts for a new general. Congrats guys.
Luis Harris
I was in the Guildball thread myself ;^)
Brayden Jackson
the what?
Elijah Hernandez
Morty2 is tricky because of how hard her feat actually is to use. The other response is probably good advice as far as what spells you'll be using even if it is wrapped up in bitchiness.
Parker Clark
Might as well get used to it. Everything is out of scale to everything in trolls.
Kayden Price
Morty2 is fine, not great. There's always a place for a spellpiercer caster. I've had a couple games with her, running variations of 2-3 slayers + other jackspam + support. It doesn't look like a lot on paper but it gets the job done. I'd recommend at least 4 lights and 4 heavies with her, since all her jack abilities are multiplicative in effect. You can do arcnodes, although she tends to play fairly far forward so it may not be strictly necessary.
The salvage thing actually is actually pretty decent - as with Morty1, you can assume your opponent will shoot down half your jacks on the way in, but salvage means the rest are likely arriving in mint condition. They can mitigate it with focus fire, but that can create some activation order issues for the other guy. Her spell list is flexible, but mostly she's just fueling her jacks and maneuvering into position for a good feat turn. She's got some plausible assassination vectors too, especially with the lights.
Adrian Gonzalez
>Morty2 is tricky because of how hard her feat actually is to use. That's definitely part of it. She reminds me a lot of playing certain hordes casters like Madrak and Grissel. She doesn't want to be right on the front line, but just behind it supporting. Keep in mind she herself is included in the feat, and she's got 2x Mat 6 P+S 14's. She can tear down a heavy herself on feat turn. She won't survive a countercharge from a heavy, or a dedicated assassin, but with a little camp she's durable enough to hang close to the action.
Charles Flores
I hope that she and some of the other Command Book casters that aren't quite where they need to be like Ghyrrshyld get a run at CID at some point. They're both really close to good.
Colton Sanchez
THE SKORNE BOOK HAS TWO THEME LISTS IN IT
ONE OF THEM IS WINDS OF DEATH HOLY SHIT YOU CAN'T WRITE THIS KIND OF SHIT
Yeah, I guess we'll see. She feels like she's probably just missing the jackspam theme list she wants to make it work - basically a cryx version of Heavy Metal (a few other casters are in the same boat). Infernal Machines is ok for now, since hyper-aggressive plays into what she wants to do anyway, but she's unlikely to get a lot of free points in it since she doesn't want to splurge on thrall units.
Zachary Sullivan
What did you expect? The other one is already in CID. 3 total lists, 2 in the book, 1 in CID, 1 is Winds, do the math.
Liam Wilson
>What did you expect? Well after a fucking year of waiting I expected not to be told that we're getting a theme list we already had.
Either way it still leaves no theme for Cataphracts or Praetorians. They can't seriously be expecting to roll them both into one theme, right?
Asher Thomas
You realized they already announced that they're dumping the rest of the planned themes next month so that every model has a theme it fits in, right? You're literally getting outraged over a physical book that is the last of it's kind not having a thing they're giving us for free the same month the book actually releases.
Nicholas Ramirez
Well yeah, they told us that at the very beginning when they gave everyone a theme. Everyone's book came with the one that was handed out early and a new one.
Wyatt Perez
Thanks guys, will take into account. She sounds challenging and is more jack focused which is something I wanna get into to have variation.
Dylan Wood
>Either way it still leaves no theme for Cataphracts or Praetorians. They can't seriously be expecting to roll them both into one theme, right? I 100% expect that they will be in the same theme, and I see no problem with that. All they have to do is make the "1 free per 20" rule based off "units", and you're good to go. And then you're free to do all cataphracts, all praetorians, or a mix.
There are already a bunch of flex theme forces in that mold in other factions, in addition to the super-narrow and super-thematic ones. Infernal Machines, Defenders of Ios, Kingmakers, Devourers Host, and Band of Heroes are all relatively flexible in how you build them.
David Morris
This. I personally expect my dear Assault Kommandos to get shafted by mashing them into the Man-O-War theme, but I would be okay with that.
I just want to play my terrible models without being punished in lost points.
Parker Mitchell
Any tips for Kryssa lists in a journeyman?
Will probably be switching to Thagrosh in week 3.
So week 1 is
Kryssa -Shredder -Shredder -Neraph -Bolt Thrower
Week 2 I was gonna add Nyss swordsmen then week 3 drop them to a min unit (rules allow this) to fit in Azrael. Got no fury management then though.
Tips appreciated!
Brayden Hill
Yeah, I guess they're going to have to. Seems odd, I'm surprised they didn't jam them into Jaws Of The Wolf with all the other khador misfits.
Adrian Phillips
All of this is fine, you just need to get gud.
t. Kaelyssa
Josiah Campbell
>how successful is winning by scenario in your local group?
Most games are dominated by scenario play in our meta, whether or not that's the actual win condition. We see a lot of assassinations forced by scenario conditions.
Justin King
Dunno about the group as a whole but it's certainly the most common way I lose.
Julian Perry
They also said they were going to delay the book 4 months so they could update it.
One thinks a third theme(we know exists) could have been put in there.
Liam Nguyen
Anyone got Morghoul3's fluff page?
Juan Watson
>how successful is winning by scenario in your local group? I'd say a little more than a quarter of all games are won by scenario. The other 75% are seriously influenced by scenarios.
Charles Perez
Question about Arcana that came up and we weren't sure about so maybe one of you knows. Sorscha1 using Wind Walk to advance into my Labyrinth range. Could that trigger the -2 SPD or does it have to be the actual advance of the model that triggers it?
Aaron Wilson
All it requires is for the model to advance and end movement in control.
Wind Walk is an advance, and if they end in your control, that can trigger Labyrinth.
Leo Rivera
making a tanith list for my first foray into circle and i'm wondering if it's better to go wild hunt and suffer through the significantly worse selection for 8-12 points of free UAs, or go no theme and use gobber bellows to keep tanith safe, chef + mannikins for fury management and bodies and even throw in a wrong-eye for a self-contained beast and starcrossed.
Logan Price
It's not a legitimate grievance, it's chewing rancid cud- the user doing it probably wouldn't know what to do with free points other than get them boxed.
Battlegroup hyper-agressive- now that's interesting. It's tricky not outrunning Krea or Agonizer bubbles while using itthough.
Parker Morgan
The theme would be interesting if it wasn't a brick up theme in a situation where being able to spread out(and being able to bring infantry) are vital to the game.
The only casters that are really interested in this theme are Naaresh(Who likes DoA way, way more), Zaadesh, and X2 for drake spam.
Everyone else gives up way too much.
Andrew Rogers
Eh, not necessarily. A lot of casters used to enjoy running variations on the titan herd, and the IH theme gives you a way to do that in Mk3. There's some interesting interactions... really anybody who might have considered spamming beasts before now has an excuse.
Mak1's shield guard combines really nicely with HE for instance, giving you not just speed but also control - which might also make it worth considering with cyclops spam now. Mak3 and Morg1 were already battlegroup focused anyway. X and Fatty can still do the titan herd thing. Naaresh and Zaadesh you mentioned, Xekaar probably falls under that umbrella too.
Testing required, obviously, but I don't think we should write it off too quickly.
Zachary Brown
I've built Hexy2 lists that could fit into this with only Marketh being left outside (used double max beast handlers with blackspot as infantry).
Kevin Robinson
Daily reminder that everyone thought Ghost Fleet would be shit too.
Eli Foster
Ded thread Post Thyron lists
Eli Powell
The worst caster in ret, why?
Angel Gomez
How can I if the thread is dead?
Jason Gonzalez
More like no one expected people to go out and buy 3 boxes of revenants.
Jaxson Gonzalez
>The worst caster in ret, why? WAS the worst caster in Ret. Argument to be made that recent releases turn that on its head. With a FKG next to him and a Lys floating 5" behind, it's finally starting to look like he can actually bully the table like the Elf Butcher he always wanted to be.
Of course, argument can be made that Vyros1 does the same thing better, with more of a slant toward jacks. Thyron's definitely worth a fresh look, though.
Honestly, worst caster will probably always be The Most Interesting Elf In The Caen. Ironically, no matter how hard they try, they can never quite seem to make him interesting. You'd think designing ElfCaine would be easy, but no.
Brandon Martinez
Garryth does more unique than Ravyn.
Bentley Butler
I got a tournament question:
What's Cygnar's usual drop into CoC, considering two list pairs?
Bentley Baker
Storm Division. Heavy metal is bad times.
Ryan Allen
I'm with , Garryth can at least draw a charge line to a potential victim through a crowd and has some neat support spells on the side. He just has issues saving focus to get to combat, not doing as much to support as other casters if he doesn't go on the offensive, and avoiding getting splattered if he fails to assassinate. Ravyn doesn't actually know what the fuck she wants to do.
Robert Evans
post conversions
Xavier Davis
Dank memes/10 Nice shading btw
Bentley Smith
This. I also love how wonderfully Thyron works with his Swordsmen fellows; Cleave and Sidestep are beautiful together.
They obviously still struggle with ARM, but I wouldn't want to face 24 dudes that are hard to shoot, can't be charged for a turn and cleave through my infantry (with parry!), should I play heavy on infantry.
Brody Butler
Worth noting that taking the Artificer isn't necessarily a bad idea with him. He doesn't inherently need the +2 Def vs. ranged, however the immunity to blast conferred benefits the Lys healer he's taking along.
Christian Nguyen
Thyron also works great with House Shyeel Battle mages. Side step plus Beat back is a sweet repositioning combo.
Ryder Rodriguez
I agree with Vyros being a more survivable Thyron and more friendly with Jacks. Thyron's toolbox is build more for infantry than jacks. Which in itself isn't a big problem because Ret has great infantry. The Issue is with heavy spam armor skew and Gunlines popular in the meta, he doesn't offer his troops any answers for those problems. Honestly wait till the Vyre Lights come out, especially the Harpy, if it has a one inch reach on that claw and keeps flight, it will be an interesting offensive vector for Thyron especially feat turn.
Robert Moore
Vyros1 is a bit more survivable thanks to base size but does have more trouble ending the game on his own. Flank is great until all your jacks are dead.
Vyros2 is probably less survivable just because of base size but he also needs his battlegroup to finish things out against similarly-tough casters.
Both certainly do more for their army than Thyron. I think he might have a place though with Swordsmen out and infantry coming back. Plus Spellpiercer can be huge in some matchups.