Pathfinder General /pfg/

massdebater
massdebater

Pathfinder General /pfg/

What is your favourite type of minion and why is it golems?

/pfg/ Link Repository: https://pastebin.com/fr9piFCi
Current Playtests: https://pastebin.com/vK9njh31

Old Thread: /tg/thread/55804302#p55804302

All urls found in this thread:
https://pastebin.com/fr9piFCi
https://pastebin.com/vK9njh31
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/exploration-movement/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qp1t?How-do-you-calculate-DPR
haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Is Spheres of Might any good for out-of-combat stuff, or are we just retreading PoW where everybody goes gaga over it and then realizes later that it has a bunch of gaps?

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@haveahappyday
The latter, as always.
Let's be real, nobody is going to want to build for anything but to "win."

I've seen it a million times before--players who aren't smug normies around to go "lel I'm such a nerd" will inevitably just want to trivialize encounters, and then complain about how they're bored.

askme
askme

@BinaryMan
I think it's bad game design in general to make roleplay or non-combat options for a character compete with combat. It's a lot easier to estimate the usefulness of a combat option because damage is a metric, but roleplay or non-combat is a lot harder to judge. Also, if two options are similar in all categories except one metric like damage, it's not really a "choice" when there are strictly superior options.

I hope that SoM realized this and accounted for it.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@BinaryMan
The worst part is when the excuses they make.
I'm not really that optimized, if anything I'm taking the underpowered options
Well, the game is just broken so I'm clearly not the one at fault
What am I supposed to do, take the trap options?
But my character would take this option over the others
We should just play Legends of the Wulin/5e/GURPS

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@haveahappyday
I haven't seen the full release, but I remember Athletics have a good amount of Utility

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Poker_Star
We should just play Legends of the Wulin
But you should. 5e and GURPS are trash though.

likme
likme

What is it you guys actually want out of 3pp martials? Every time I hear about some new thing, it's always riddled with complaints.

Oh it does more damage than X 1pp class
Oh it has more utility than X 1pp class
Oh it has more staying power than X class

I thought 1pp classes were broken and terrible, so why are you so insistent on comparing them to 3pp? Is /pfg/ secretly all GitP posters?

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@likme
Personally most everything I'd want out of a 1pp martial, save maybe having a few bonus feats, can be done by an Occultist. Hell, everything I want out of classes in general, besides "is an arcane spellcaster" is done by Occultist.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@likme
All martial classes should be designed like the Vigilante

takes2long
takes2long

@Illusionz
@Fuzzy_Logic
So why aren't you sated yet? The thing you want already exists. Why even encourage these 3pp devs to make things you don't even want?

likme
likme

@likme
What is it you guys actually want out of 3pp martials?
For me I want a martial class that isnt trivialized by just playing a wizard. I really love playing wizards. They are by far my favorite class to play. But sometimes I want to play a rogue or a meat shield.

Methshot
Methshot

@Illusionz
Highly versatile talent trees with both in and out of combat, but horrible chained down on what kind of a campaign is being ran?

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@likme
a martial class that isnt trivialized by just playing a wizard
Can it be done? How would you do it?

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Sharpcharm
Not by buffing the martial to the level of a wizard, but buffing the martial and nerfing wizard until they finally meet somewhere middle. That or just give everything 35 spell resistance at later levels.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@VisualMaster
nerfing wizard
you basically have to kill the vancian spell list for that though. And sure SoP does that, but you nogs complain that it's too strong at low levels. You're never happy, are you?

farquit
farquit

@VisualMaster
but buffing the martial and nerfing wizard until they finally meet somewhere middle.
So basically by replacing Vancian with SoP and giving/replacing Martials with SoM?

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Nude_Bikergirl
Nah, you could just strip most of the wizard spells and make them school-specialization exclusives with a few remaining available for all to choose.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@Methnerd
strip most of the wizard spells and make them school-specialization exclusives
So basically what Spheres does, where you're almost required to specialize in either 1-2 different themes, and the actual powerful stuff is locked behind DM Permission

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@takes2long
Because it can still only do it a certain way, and there should be more than one way to skin an orc

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Sharpcharm
I honestly dont know how it can be accomplished. Nerfing a wizard is almost always out of the question just because all it has is 9th level casting. It has no chassis to build off of. You would have to buff it first then nerf it, which idk.

As for martials, while I like the vigilante, the better archetypes for it are just give it spell progression. I almost feel like there needs to be a kind of heroic progression for martials. Not PoW, but more like talents that scale into late game. Versatile but relevant at different stages of the game.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@whereismyname
DMs always just blanket ban advanced talents at chargen, and then forget about them later. I would love to have specific bonus abilities gained from specific quests, and not just "oh sure this is allowed when you level up". Give me gameplay motivations to roleplay.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@cum2soon
Nerfing a wizard is almost always out of the question just because all it has is 9th level casting.

That's why you remove the wizard completely and replace it with the magician bard.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@cum2soon
Are you telling me that feats and abilities should... What's the word... Scale? We can't have that, imagine if something like Power Attack scaled!

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@massdebater
Golems are pretty shitty, all you need is Create Pit and it might as well not even be there.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

So, Everyone's talking about SoM, but what about the Vivomancer's HAndbook. I know it was released recently, but is it any good?

@TalkBomber
Bard
Not Occultist
ishggydggy

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Ignoramus
Occultist works too. Magician Bard just comes to mind because Perform (oratory) means you can have magic powered by ominous chanting.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@TurtleCat
Its not combat though, they do plenty of damage in most instances and there are lots of 3pp that buff damage. Its the other stuff that needs love.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@RavySnake
So why not just some sort of talent thing that doesn't actually cost anything to use, and is proportional to BAB or something, with a caveat for rogue being counted as full.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Dreamworx
Because in most instances, just playing a wizard is easier and a lot of the time more efficient. If the wizard can do it, the fighter, rogue, ranger, monk and paladin should be able to as well, even if it is just within their own niche.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@BlogWobbles
That's why I said doesn't cost anything to use, meaning no feats to get it, or playing specific classes. Just a universal subsystem that's added on.

hairygrape
hairygrape

Re-request from last thread, does anyone have any advice on building an Oozemaster-type character with Spheres? I've been considering Thaumaturge and going switch hitter with Slime Transformation and acid blasts

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@New_Cliche
Oh I see what you mean. Yes, just a secondary system that overlays on top of the lower tier classes. Even if it is a specific one or one that is key'd to certain ability scores.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@hairygrape
Either Creation or Nature Sphere to create and shape copious amounts of inanimate slime

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

I'm looking to get started in pf, and I was looking for advice. I'm 100% familiar with 5e, and have heard the two systems are fairly similar. Should I just go through and read every last thing in the pastebin, or is there a better starting point for me? There's a convention coming up where I live that will be offering next to no 5e but a shitton of pf, so I figure now is as good a time as any to learn.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@hairygrape
Creation Sphere handbook has a talent for creating oozes.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@massdebater
Golems are pretty sweet, though I am hype for when Spheres of Might gets added to the wiki so I can have a golem spheres companion that I can ride as it runs along walls and shield blocks for me.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Virgin wizard vs Chad Occultist

Someone make that meme, I wanna see it for shits n giggles

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Nude_Bikergirl
The pastebin is full of stuff you won't really be using if you're just getting started. Look at the trove (hive<DOT>am/PFTrove) and grab the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook (in the Core Rules folder). That can give you a good grasp of the rules, but it's a heck of a long read. Going through the Beginner Box will be much quicker, but will give you an abridged survey of all the rules in the game.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@massdebater
golems
I would if they were not cost prohibitive. I would love nothing more than to open a factory and start cranking my mechanical army out.

So I settle for more readily available materials.

StonedTime
StonedTime

Is there ever a reason to grab any other rank of monstrous physique than the first one so you can gargoyle it up? The rest of them have either such limited choices or poor choices that they don't seem to be worth the slot.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@massdebater
P O P P E T S
O
P
P
E
T
S

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Spazyfool
virgin wizard
has to choose between a dinky arcane bond or some yappy animal
wears goofy robes, can't wear armor because it messes up his yoga moves for spellcasting
has no class features apart from bonus feats and spellcasting
falls over when someone looks in their direction menacingly
needs to use mind control and enchantments in order to get qt elves to even consider him
no physical stats
yells shit at enemies to cast spells
relies on no-save spells and abilities
unoriginal

chad Occultist
gets the option to use whatever the fuck he wants for his implements: can swing dildo and use a pillow as weapon and shield
outfights a Barbarian
kicks the Medium in the shins, steals his qt spirits
twice as many skills as the Wizard, far more knowledgeable
superior physical form, cited as a paragon of masculinity
has no issues wearing armor, relishes in it, can wear breastplate
swings around martial weapons
refuses to even consider speaking or doing chuuni weeaboo hand gesture shit: points implement and thinks the enemy dead
enemies want to touch his implements
women fawning over his superior BaB and larger hitdice
has no use for some class features
literal harry dresden

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

I had to postpone my Constantinople game since the LGS is having an event, and I've been too busy at work to do stuff with the game and at home.

At least I can use the next two weeks to make it a grand adventure fighting Grenadier Sahuagin in the Galata district.

I still need a final encounter. I'll probably go with a Cleric of Sekolah and a bunch of generic Sahuagin. If it looks like the battle is going against the PCs, their allies at the Cult of Velsharoon can help them out by placing Sahuagin skeletons under their command.

@massdebater
Sorry, but I have to go with Skeletons. They're cheaper, and feel like they have more personality.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Need_TLC
Wonder how'd this look the other way around

Virgin occultist
Indecisive so has to have a thousand options open or be triggered
Not even a real caster, relies on physical bulk instead of superior intellect
Bullies weaker classes like medium to feel important
Has to wear armor like a weak coward
Can't cast spells if mildly anxious
Needs weapons to feel masculine
Creepily stares at enemies to cast spells
Has useless class features

Chad wizard
Gracefully weaves the fabric of the universe with word and movement alike
Needs no armor like a man and is a /fa/bulous dresses
Uses all class features perfectly and needs no excess
A true classis
Needs only the power of his mind to dominate the battlefield
Chicks dig the familiar
Refuses to play by the rules by making his own
Most talked class in the game

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

My current campaign setting has Spheres and some Strange Magic as the main kind of magic, but I'm not sure about Alchemy or Occultists. Alchemy is one of the only times Vancian magic makes any sense, and I don't even know where to begin converting Occultist to Spheres, so I'm considering leaving them as-is. Would it seem too out of place to have a handful of Vancian casters in a mostly Spheres world?

MPmaster
MPmaster

@massdebater
Golems are really, really shitty and cost inefficient unfortunately.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Raving_Cute
You can do spheres alchemy by just saying Alchemists are mixing shit on the spot. Maybe make some kind of custom alchemist chemical mixing glove and make it a focus casting requirement.

As for Occultist. That's going to be more in depth since the Occultist's basic class design makes assumptions about the setting that Spheres for the most part tries to avoid.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Raving_Cute
Not really. Alchemy and psychic casting are completely different from arcane and divine and occultists and alchemists are probably the most minor offenders as far as vancian casting goes (due to limited spell levels, spell lists and generally not being entirely reliant on pure casting).

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

How would you even go about making a class that's reliant on Casting/Manifesting but only gets up to like 6th level Spells/Powers?

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Raving_Cute
Having those two as Vancian is fine. Just think of the Occultist as more of a Spell-Slinger, and the Implements he uses as Guns. Each gun has a particular caliber of ammunition its suited for, and its own strengths and weaknesses, however you can still load it with special custom rounds that you need.

Plus it makes sense for the Occultist. Occultists don't cast or create magic themselves, they invoke it from the magic and emotional imprint latent within thier implements. You're essentially cheating your way into magic by letting some artifact do the heavy lifting, yet its ultimately limited in what it can do since only specific forms of magic can be held in the implement.

Think of it like science class. While the other kids are trying to memorize equations and concepts to answer questions, you're the lazy bastard who relies almost solely on flashcards, writing on your hand, and a few mnemonics.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Raving_Cute
Like a Bard or Cryptic?

DeathDog
DeathDog

@Emberfire
Last I checked bards where buff despensers/gishes and Cryptics were also gishes that just relied on conductive shot guns.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

Are electrum pieces a thing?

whereismyname
whereismyname

@Raving_Cute
Make it like an Occultist. Your class abilities give you come options and thematic choices based on your choice of specialization in magic. Take your theme as the magic man, and play with it some.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@DeathDog
still no initiating cryptic that's compatible with the akashic one

sadness

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@DeathDog
All 6th level casters are gishes, since they get the average hit dice and BAB.

Do you want a Wizard that has no other class features, and can only get up to 6th level spells?

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

How would you guys differentiate a mob of goblins and a mob of orcs? I mean not their asthetics or how they look, but in terms of their role in your campaign.

Oh, no 'noble' Warcraft Orcs kind of shit.

massdebater
massdebater

@Harmless_Venom
goblins
hungry fuckers
orcs
angry fuckers

iluvmen
iluvmen

@ZeroReborn
Mob of goblins goes around on a whim or being pushed around by something smarter than them while orcs would probably be riled up by one of their own and leave a lot fewer corpses with bite marks.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@ZeroReborn
Goblins are just swarms of disorganized rabbles, either doing their own thing on the edges of society or being forced to do things at the behest of someone bigger.

Orcs are more tribal and organized, hit and run raids, banditry, working together under someone stronger or more magically inclined.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

I hear talks about a "Legendary Kineticist" class and I can't find it. I downloaded the Legendary Kineticist pdf and it wasn't in there. Am I being retarded?

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@hairygrape
On a semi-related note, did anybody notice that coreids from Bloodforge: Infusions can be easily refluffed as psionic slimefolk? Just say that they have a crystalline core that creates protective mucus shaped into humanoid form.

farquit
farquit

Finally grab SoM
Check the progression rules
4th casters still only get Proicient, while the 6th caster scum get Adept
REEEEEEEEEEEEE!
The other way around would make more sense! A Paladin should have more martial skill than a fucking bard!

cum2soon
cum2soon

@CouchChiller
It's in the Spheres of Power wiki

JunkTop
JunkTop

@New_Cliche
I never noticed that, thanks for pointing it out. In my WIP campaign setting there's an island of slimefolk that I was intending to make Squoles, but Coreids would fit much better.

@cum2soon
Thanks friend, I never noticed it there. Where does it originate from if not Legendary Kineticists?

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@DeathDog
@Harmless_Venom
What the fuck does gish mean?

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@JunkTop
Legendary Kineticists 2

@PurpleCharger
A dude that fights and does magic fuckery too

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@PurpleCharger
It means "person who is good at both magic and combat". ie your typical spellblades and such.

The phrase originated as a name for a special type of Githyanki soldier that was a master at both swordplay and spell-play, and was eventually adapted into common ttrpg nomenclature

eGremlin
eGremlin

@massdebater
hungry fuckers

You're behind the times.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

What is Pathfinder's best gish?

girlDog
girlDog

@JunkTop
I never noticed that
I did recently when looking over Con races that would fit a kineticist (gambler). I really like the idea of psionic slimegirls who are in fact just crystals making puppet-bodies to protect themselves and interact with the world. It would be great if DSP made an ART to enable that option without refluffing.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@eGremlin
Wow, such edge.
It's like if Virt were still alive and with us today.

massdebater
massdebater

@BinaryMan
Occultist

Playboyize
Playboyize

@eGremlin
That shit is not good.
That shit was never good.
It wasn't even shocking.
It would've been better as a fucking comedy.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@BinaryMan
Bladebound Spiritualist. All the benefits of magus, plus more and a far better spell list. They lose out on minimal utility because they're spontaneous casters, but if you chose a race that gets +1 spell per level as the favored class bonus, it doesn't impact much.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@BinaryMan
Define "best". Do you mean higest damage? Most versatile kit? Good at blending magic and combat in an interesting way?

Nearly all the Gishes are good at something. Plus, even some fullcasters can count as Gishes, such at the Cleric, Druid, Oracle, and Shaman.

There are also some builds that can countas gishes, such asthe infamous Oradin Build

FastChef
FastChef

@eGremlin

And how do you think that fatass got that big? He ate a bunch of the other goblins.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@whereismyname
Yeah, that's what I had envisioned. My only concern was save DC's, but that's less of an issue because the class is Psionic.
I still have no fucking clue what abilities to give to Clarasentience and Psychoportation specced characers

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@SomethingNew
it's been two years

girlDog
girlDog

@girlDog
I'd like something like that as well. In the mean time I intend to make them humanoids with the aberrant and slimeblood subtypes.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@likme
I want to actually be reasonably good at combat without being pigeonholed into doing the same cheese-tactics over and over.

I want to actually be reasonably good out of combat and have power to have an effect on the story in ways that aren't just killing things.

I want to have variety in the above, so that things don't simply become boring.

So far, the only thing I've actually seen accomplish this is Warder when you purposely try to not go insane, and the weird ass combination of Rogue stuff from like forty different sources that I've cobbled together.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@Snarelure
What are some examples of good out of combat abilities that aren't just "more skills" or magic?

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Ignoramus
I have two vigilante social talents that I feel describe this perfectly.
Mockingbird (Ex): The vigilante can mimic almost any sort of voice, or even animal calls and sound effects, and he can throw his voice at a distance. This functions similarly to a combination of the ghost sound, ventriloquism, and vocal alteration spells. A vigilante must be at least 5th level to choose this talent.
And from Legendary Vigilante's.
Keep ‘em Talking (Ex) The vigilante knows how to engage a
foe with their words alone, making an opposed diplomacy
check against a foe. If successful, the foe becomes fascinated
for 1 minute, conversing with the vigilante. If the vigilante’s
diplomacy check is greater than their foe’s by 10 or more,
the foe reveals an incriminating fact about themselves or
an associate of themselves. A vigilante can use this ability
at will, but they can only use it against a specific creature
once per day. They can spend a standard action to further
fascinate the foe for another minute, each time granting
that creature a +5 cumulative bonus to their Diplomacy
check to realize what the vigilante is doing. Once a foe
defeats the vigilante in this opposed diplomacy

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@New_Cliche
@JunkTop
@girlDog
@girlDog
Hell, just keep them aberrations, give them the slimeblood subtype, and make their regeneration work in water instead of random stuff and you're good to go.

Stealing all of this by the way.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@cum2soon
good out of combat is just Ex spells
There's no hope

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Ignoramus
More skills, where skills are actually assumed to be useful for things that aren't explicitly written in the book. If a skill reasonably applies to a thing, then let it do the thing.

Crafting mundane items that are able to help the party in useful ways, and having things that keep them scaling into the later game properly.

@AwesomeTucker
Flavorful utility is bad if it uses the biggest example of utility as a baseline!

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Gigastrength
Athletics, scout, and scoundrel all have nice utility, especially if legendaries are allowed.

Skullbone
Skullbone

@AwesomeTucker
It's an EX version of several spells at once.

And yes, it is. It's not a spell, it's just easier to describe it using a spells terminology. It's the same way chameleons are considered to be constantly under an EX effect of spider climb.

farquit
farquit

Need some advice. I’m currently playing a human Kensei magus and about to reach 3rd but I don’t know what feat to take. I’ve got dodge and combat casting.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Do you need to use different hands for your somatic component and focus or material component?

hairygrape
hairygrape

@farquit
kensai magus
dodge instead of finesse

shit nigga what are you doing

JunkTop
JunkTop

@hairygrape
Rolled stats str and dex ended up the same. Went with katana for the higher damage

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@JunkTop
rolled stats

run, run far away

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@JunkTop
rolled stats

Well, guess I can't really fault you there even if it's not my jam. Hope your Int is good too. Have you tried looking at any of the guides yet?

farquit
farquit

@Sir_Gallonhead
If he's already at level 3 I'm pretty sure he's way past that point bruh.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@JunkTop
Rolled stats
Get out of there.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Evil_kitten
Yeah, new gm, old one did point build. And most guides are for dex base Kensei

Bidwell
Bidwell

@JunkTop
str and dex ended up the same.
Shame you aren't a Fighter or Vigilante, you could've gotten some good support for that.

Anyway, Since you probably have the Str for it, go ahead and take Power Attack if you want. Or maybe Combat Expertise instead since its going to be a prereq for a bunch of other feats,

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@VisualMaster
One thing you should know: the Dodge feat is actually a trap.

a) +1 AC is really easy to get from other sources
b) at high level AC doesn't really matter much (compare to having spells like Mirror Image active all the time)
c) having feats like Power Attack and Furious Focus is way better than having Dodge and Mobility

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@lostmypassword
If he's at level 3 it's fine for now, he can retrain it later.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@lostmypassword
@VisualMaster
One other thing you should know: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining/

By taking 5 days and spending (50 × your level) gp with a qualified trainer, you can replace a feat you know with any other feat you qualify for.

I would recommend using this to replace Dodge with Power Attack, then after that take Furious Focus ASAP. This will give you tons more damage in combat.

Alternately, if you really want to focus on defenses, instead replace Dodge with one of the save-boosting feats like Lightning Reflexes. Getting a bonus to saves is much harder than getting a bonus to AC, and saves are much more important at high level.

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Bidwell
I wasn’t aware of retraining feats. Could retrain for power attack. Then Look at getting a wand of shield or mage armour

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Skullbone
A wand of mage armor will be more useful, since it'll last for 1 hour per use, compared to 1 minute per use for shield.

Spamalot
Spamalot

I want to play a catfolk Fractured Mind/Exciter Spiritualist that does some natural attack shenanigans. What ARTs represent a mountain lion/cougar better than the default racial ones? How do I optimize the claw attacks I get? Any help, /pfg/?

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Spamalot
How do I optimize the claw attacks I get?

Claw Blades and TWF

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@lostmypassword
But how am I supposed to go Crane Style.

SniperWish
SniperWish

So there's a lot of Occultist talk and I'm interested in making one for my next campaign in a week but...

wtf do Occultists like, actually do role wise? I can't make heads or tails out of it enough to make one seem good. But I found the Panopoly Savant interesting as heck (pardon the language) and want to try it.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Dreamworx
Did you not hear the news?

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@TurtleCat
No. I still need that +6 dodge though, even if it's costing 5 feats...

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Sir_Gallonhead
5 feats for only 6 AC
Jesus you're bad.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

If you're in Difficult Terrain, but adjacent to an area of normal terrain, you cannot 5ft out of the Difficult Terrain, correct?

Soft_member
Soft_member

@BlogWobbles
Correct, sometimes

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/exploration-movement/
Tactical Movement

Tactical movement is used for combat. Characters generally don’t walk during combat, for obvious reasons—they hustle or run instead. A character who moves his speed and takes some action is hustling for about half the round and doing something else the other half.

Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table: Hampered Movement for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.

If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling.

In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can’t take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Soft_member
No, user.

This is very simple.

I am in a square of Difficult Terrain.

There is an adjacent square of non-Difficult Terrain.

I have my normal 30ft of movement available. Difficult Terrain takes 2x to move through.

Can I take a 5ft step, SPECIFICALLY A 5ft step NOT a Move Action, to 5ft step into the normal terrain?

SniperGod
SniperGod

@TurtleCat
Yeah, I'm stuck with 1pp and combat only, so sucks.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@SniperWish
Occultist roles
Depends on what you want the class to do, though I really hope you like Elves and Half-Elves (or have a lenient GM) because that FCB is pretty integral to making some things "work". There are archetypes and panoplies to be a great caster, though I haven't looked into that kind of playstyle AT ALL. Then there's the ever-present Trappings of the Warrior to let you be "The Best Full BAB Class in the Game" and, while not really outright replacing a "real martial" since you'll be a tad more fragile, you still have way more utility to go with being very competitive at beating the shit out of things.

TL;DR For a Trappings of the Warrior Occultist, pump Str and think about it like an Inquisitor or Alchemist. You're probably not best suited to be the primary frontliner, but you can still wade in and maul the fuck out of things very easily.

But I found the Panopoly Savant interesting as heck (pardon the language) and want to try it.
Don't forget to look at the Haunt Occultist if you're thinking of going full smash, as getting the Champion spirit from Medium is stupid fucking good when it can replace the turboshitty resonant power of Conjuration. The +2 weapon damage at all times is a drop in the bucket, but the potential for MANY uses of a scaling swift action +attack/damage power can be worth losing out on Panoply Savant's bonus focus.

girlDog
girlDog

@SniperGod
Consider suicide. And then play GURPS.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Flameblow
When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.

Emphasis on into. So if you're moving out of it, then it should be just fine.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@girlDog
considering suicide
I already do my man, but there's some people that need to die before I can off myself.

But if you have any better suggestions I'm open to listening.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

If my character is tied up with ropes, do the ropes count as an attended object? They shouldn't, right? I'm trying to destroy them and it's easier to destroy unattended objects.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@SniperGod
Forget about AC, focus on effects like Mirror Image instead.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Spazyfool
How are you trying to break them? If you're trying to just muscle through stuff like that has a break DC which is Str-based.

iluvmen
iluvmen

@Garbage Can Lid
A Shatter spell, unattended objects get no save against it.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@SniperGod
See @Supergrass
Just cast blur or mirror image if you're worried about getting hit. Put all those feats into damage things like power attack, furious focus, and intensify spell. Then put the money you're saving from not having armor into pearls of power and a wand of mage armor.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@iluvmen
I think the main issue you'll run into is that Shatter requires both verbal and somatic components, and if your hands are literally tied up by ropes I'm not sure you're going to be able to do the hand signs and arm waving necessary to even cast the spell.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@New_Cliche
I'm a spontaneous caster with Still Spell, so that should take care of it unless I'm gagged too.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

Heavens Oracle
Wears a Breastplate as armor
Uses the Coat of Many Stars
Would my Oracle have to remove his Breastplate to instead put on the Coat of Many Stars as armor? Or is it literally just a +4 to AC that can go on top of regular armor?

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Stupidasole
You wouldn't need to take off your breastplate to activate it, to my knowledge, but they wouldn't stack. You'd just use the higher of the two armor bonuses.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Stupidasole
It doesn't stack. Coat of many stars is literally just Mage Armor: The Revelation

Techpill
Techpill

@Firespawn
kys broodie

TechHater
TechHater

@Flameblow
@Supergrass
Autism Fighter though. Yes I do hate myself.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@TechHater
Autism fighter stacks up on every defensive option so that he's unkillable. He wins because he has the time.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Techpill
I refuse

girlDog
girlDog

@Raving_Cute
Nah we determined two ways of killing autism fight

One is a wizard-sniper kill team with enervates because even he can't survive 20 negative levels

the other is hundreds of magic missiles.

idontknow
idontknow

@girlDog
doesn't he have a constant shield effect and immunity to negative levels or some shit

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@idontknow
not sure about the shield effect, but the immunity was to the effects of a negative level, not to death caused by having negative levels equal to character levels.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@idontknow
the shield may have been added after i pointed out the missile kill possibility, but enervate snipers are still a real death chance.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@Deadlyinx
You're only making this worse, fag.

Evilember
Evilember

@lostmypassword
@Boy_vs_Girl
Oh, is there a more up to date build? All I can find is the pastebin.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@massdebater
No Blood of the Coven yet.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

Is a Tieflings -2 to charisma better roleplayed as autism, prejudice, or an evil aura?

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@LuckyDusty
Whatever you want. I like to think of it as partly some physical quirk that just makes them seem "wrong", like as simple as a strange way of walking or moving that seems off.

But having their outlook and expectations of others tainted by prejudice and mistrust also helps.

Lunatick
Lunatick

I want to make a goblin alchemist based on bombs. What general feats and discoveries would I most likely want to look at for this? Besides general ranged combat feats that is.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@VisualMaster
strange way of walking or moving that seems off

Speak and gesture like Christopher Walken when he's on Saturday Night Live.

Make, your own punctuation.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@whereismyname
How tho

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Lunatick
Skill Focus(Reading Comprehension) and go get the books from your local wizard.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Spazyfool
From what I can tell you effectively don't need to roll anything.
Looks like you technically have to make a will save, but you can chose to fail it and the rope breaks.
Will save for this is werid though. Makes more sense to be a reflex save or fort save

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Flameblow
Yeah, movement is expended based on the space you're moving INTO, not out of. There's no issue moving out of difficult terrain, only into.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

The single greatest issue I have with the final release of Spheres of Might is the implementation of martial traditions and "sacrifice your feat progression for combat talents."

These are blatant power creep for no good reason. Any weapon-using character who can take them *should* take them. Optimal usage of these options does not even give characters more interesting playstyles. It simply reproduces the same old playstyles, only with boosted numbers and inflated action economies.

If your class at 1st level has proficiency with all martial weapons or at least one exotic weapon, you can trade in all of your proficiencies for a martial tradition. These grant you four combat talents, which can grant you even *better* proficiencies and confer a bevy of benefits on top. Yes, this improves martial classes! However, it also improves bards, hunters, inquisitors, investigators, maguses, mesmerists, occultists, skalds, vigilantes, and warpriests (warpriests gain the least from this though), who gain fabulous prizes for free.

Similarly, you can trade in some of your feats for a combat progression. The best of these trades is the adept progression deal. From levels 1 to 12, you trade in your feats at levels 1, 5, and 9. In exchange, you gain combat talents at levels 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, and 12. That means you lose *three* feats but gain *nine* combat talents. That is a very strong deal that hypercharges any weapon-user, up to and including clerics and druids. Even more absurdly, animal companions can opt for this!

How is this not flagrant power creep?

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

Where's the download for Spheres of Might?

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@haveahappyday
what else is new, every system does this to encourage use of the systems, consider what you get out of martial training in PoW, even those garbage feats are generally worth it.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Case Study #1:

Consider the following. You are making a 4th-level dual talent human occultist aiming for the Trappings of the Warrior. Your feat selection is as follows:
• 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Butchering Axe)
• 3: Power Attack

Your armor is a chain shirt or a breastplate, which makes you somewhat squishy for a frontliner. You have a +1 butchering axe, a Belt of Giant Strength +2, and Strength 20. You take a -2 attack penalty and deal 3d6+14 damage. That is the best you can do.

Alternatively, you could pick up Spheres of Might and push your 4th-level occultist into overdrive by opting for a martial tradition and adept progression.

Feats:
• 3: Extra Combat Talent

Martial Tradition: Heavy Armsman
• Berserker: Unbattered drawback, Savage
• Equipment: Armor Training, Custom Training (including butchering axe), Dwarven Heritage

Adept Progression:
2: Beastmastery: Ride package, Offensive Rider drawback, Animal Companion, remember that animal companions can take combat spheres except Beastmastery
3: Beastmastery: Pet (+4 initiative familiar, Alertness)
3: Extra Combat Talent: Beastmastery: Focusing Connection, touching through a familiar satchel's air hole
4: Beastmastery: Animal Companion, full level

Your armor is full plate this time around. You have a +1 butchering axe, a Belt of Giant Strength +2, and Strength 20. You expend martial focus and take no attack penalty to deal 3d6+16 damage. You gain regain your martial focus as an immediate action by taking out an enemy, or by spending a move action.

Your familiar grants you +4 initiative and Alertness. You have a full-scaling animal companion by your side, who has also traded in some of their feats for an adept progression, with the one restriction that they cannot take Beastmastery.

You have become near-objectively and overwhelmingly superior simply for having used Spheres of Might. Worst of all, your playstyle has not changed much. You go up to foes and hit them really hard, just like before.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Spazyfool
Touhou, please. People have tried to talk to you numerous times. We just want you to stop, man. Please. It just starts the shitposting and ruins the threads, and then it ruins the sales for the company because the shitposting spills over other places.

You are directly screwing over people. You are taking FOOD out of their children's mouths.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Spazyfool
wouldn't the bonuses from this start to fall off once iterative attacks kick in.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@MPmaster
I appreciate these posts.
It's useful information to know.

TechHater
TechHater

@Spazyfool
trash martials get to be not trash
this is somehow bad
Level 4 is a bad comparison point anyways, level 6 is when you start to actually feel different from a regular martial, because they now have to do full-attacks, while with SoM you can still move, do an attack action, and actually contribute meaningfully with it.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Spazyfool

Correction: I suppose the occultist above does not actually need the belt due to the physical enhancement resonant power.

@MPmaster

Products should not be immune to criticism.

@cum2soon

Between Vital Strike, Furious Focus, and Berserker, the singular attacks are quite competitive, particularly when they do not require a full-round action. I will calculate this in a moment.

Never mind that the Spheres of Might occultist boasts a full-scaling animal companion with its own adept progression.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@TechHater
occultist Trappings of the Warrior
trash martial

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Emberfire
Then that's great for you, but every time Touhou touches something, it goes to hell. Whether it's their autism ruining it, the shitposting that surrounds them, or their brigade of ERP-friends, it goes to shit.

@AwesomeTucker
I'm not saying they aren't immune to criticism, I'm saying that you and your style of posting is not the correct medium for that criticism to be given in a way that will foster any improvement for anyone involved.

I am saying that you, personally, are the issue here. Criticism is fine, but let others take care of it. Whenever you speak, it never goes anywhere good, and it ends up making the situation worse.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@AwesomeTucker
Products should not be immune to criticism.
Yeah, except even after all these years you're still a giant faggot.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@Spazyfool
Then that's great for you, but every time Touhou touches something, it goes to hell. Whether it's their autism ruining it, the shitposting that surrounds them, or their brigade of ERP-friends, it goes to shit.

I don't remember that happening with either PoW, Avowed, or SoP.
Touhou's look at the Avowed did prompt a lot of hard changes but on the whole I think it's in a better state for it.
Touhou commented a lot on problems with PoW and SoP and they're still very popular systems in this community, people are just more aware of their flaws.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

So the other day someone asked how to make a jojo character using a stand and someone else replied with a Avante Garde something or other, I forget what it was. The other class being the Roil Dancer Kinetcist, and I'm looking over the latter and there is alot of shit going on with class, would you just refluff the abilities as being your punch ghost?

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Gigastrength
No it was the avant guard kineticist, not the roil dancer. The other suggestion was spiritualist

Is that a fucking Jojo reference

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Raving_Cute
Touhou was directly responsible for the start of animeposting, kitsuneposting, the blinkling drama, the start of the Cabal(Via Ceri and the other namefags), was what broke Gareth, fucked over DSP's other system, has forced his autism into PoW to kill good parts of it, bitched out on doing his work for SoP(But he'll still shitpost about it), and he's a large part of what contributed to Forrest leaving.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Dreamworx
Lmao dude you're retarded

massdebater
massdebater

Case Study #2:

Let us take the above two occultists again, but say they are built with the mid-levels in mind instead, at 8th level. Both of them have Strength 26 with physical enhancement and Large size, a +1 butchering axe that becomes +3 with legacy weapon, a Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, and Lead Blades up. They both have an attack bonus of +19 = 8 base attack bonus + 8 Strength modifier + 1 competence + 3 enhancement - 1 size.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation

The AC of a CR 8 monster is supposed to be 21 on average. We will use the DPR formula here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qp1t?How-do-you-calculate-DPR

The Paizo-only occultist is still a dual talent human. These are their feats:
• 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Butchering Axe)
• 3: Power Attack
• 5: Furious Focus
• 7: Improved Initiative

The Paizo-only occultist has had to shell out cash for mithral full plate with Comfort and a Steelbone Frame, which is pricy.

Damage with Furious Focus: 6d6+24 = 6d6 Large Lead Blades butchering axe + 12 Strength modifier multiplied + 3 enhancement + 9 Power Attack
Full attack: +19/+11, 6d6+24 damage (average 45)
DPR against AC 21: 74.25 = (0.95 * 45) + (0.05 * 2 * 0.95 * 45) + (0.55 * 45) + (0.05 * 2 * 0.55 * 45)

hairygrape
hairygrape

@massdebater

The Spheres of Might occultist has a disadvantage out of the metaphorical gate by being a regular human as opposed to a dual talent human. Still, they can make do.

Feats:
• Human: Something retrained to Power Attack at 2nd level
• 3: Furious Focus
• 7: Vital Strike

Martial Tradition: Heavy Armsman
• Berserker: Unbattered drawback, Savage
• Equipment: Armor Training, Custom Training (including butchering axe), Dwarven Heritage

Adept Progression:
2: Beastmastery: Ride package, Offensive Rider drawback, Animal Companion, remember that animal companions can take combat spheres except Beastmastery
3: Beastmastery: Pet (+4 initiative familiar, Alertness)
4: Beastmastery: Animal Companion, full level
6: Beastmastery: Focusing Connection, touching through a familiar satchel's air hole
7: Athletics: Fly package, full ranks in Fly plus other benefits
8: Athletics: Skillful Charge

The Spheres of Might occultist need not bother with mithral full plate or a Steelbone Frame. The Fly package helps offset the armor check penalty of regular full plate.

Damage with Furious Focus, Vital Strike, and Brutal Strike: 12d6+40 = 6d6 Large Lead Blades butchering axe + 6d6 Vital Strike + 12 Strength modifier multiplied + 3 enhancement + 9 Power Attack + 16 Brutal Strike
Attack action: +19, 12d6+40 damage (average 82)
DPR against AC 21: 85.69 = (0.95 * 82) + (0.05 * 2 * 0.95 * 82)

It seems that the Spheres of Might occultist actually has a higher DPR. They do not have to stand around and full attack, and indeed, they can actually charge and end with a Brutal Strike. On top of that, they have a full-scaling animal companion, which has similarly traded in feats for an adept progression.

The Spheres of Might occultist has sacrificed merely +2 Intelligence from being a regular human rather than a dual talent human.

WebTool
WebTool

@hairygrape
I honestly don't understand what your problem is, Touhou.

Why do you do this?

You say you hate the system, yet you do this to yourself, and you subject others to it.

Why?

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@WebTool
What about autism do you not get

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@New_Cliche
Have you seen their post history? This is beyond autism. If I was a religious person, I'd surely assume this to be punishment for some innate sin of man.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@Illusionz
Was it? Cause I can't seem to find Avant Guard anywhere and google isn't doing me a whole lot of good at the moment

idontknow
idontknow

@Boy_vs_Girl
It's in Psionics augmented: kineticists

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Boy_vs_Girl
Try typing in avant guard kineticist

SniperGod
SniperGod

@idontknow
The cover art
Jesus fuck it's just straight jojo's lol

StonedTime
StonedTime

@SniperGod
Yup

Nojokur
Nojokur

@Harmless_Venom
No you don't understand were talking like actual autism not just normal 4chinz autism

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Nojokur
I'm aware of what normal autism is, user.

Touhou pushes beyond that.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@hairygrape

I would like to reiterate that the Spheres of Might occultist's playstyle has not actually changed. They still do the same thing: run up to people and bash them hard to kill them with raw damage. Their numbers have been inflated, and their action economy has been improved (with a spheremighting animal friend too, which does not even need Handle Animal checks to command), but it all feeds back into doing nothing in combat but killing people with pure damage.

This is power creep, plain and simple.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@haveahappyday
If your class at 1st level has proficiency with all martial weapons or at least one exotic weapon, you can trade in all of your proficiencies for a martial tradition.
You mean like Proficiency Groups from 3.5 UA? Because those were a great

Similarly, you can trade in some of your feats for a combat progression.
You mean like you could already do with the feat that gives you Talents, just like in SoP?

Also, if you actually knew how to read correctly, you'd know that Clerics and Druids can't exchange spells for talents, since they aren't 4th or 6th level casters

Todd, your a retard and your autism is out of control. Please stop your raging hateboner from clouding your judgement. We know you have a vendetta against SoM, you aren't doing yourself any favors

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

A funny thing about the expert/adept/proficient progression trades with feats: they render the warrior of blind faith archetype for the paladin and the antipaladin completely and utterly superfluous, unless it is also taken in conjunction with the paladin's dirt spattered angel or the antipaladin's blood-soaked demon.

Compare:
Classes whose maximum spell level would be 4 (or Low Casters if using Spheres of Power) may exchange their spellcasting for the Proficient combat training progression, and classes whose maximum spell level would be 6 (or Mid-Casters if using Spheres of Power) may exchange their spellcasting for the Adept combat training progression.

vs.

Delayed Combat Training (Ex): At 4th level and every two levels afterwards, a warrior of blind faith gains a combat talent of their choice. Warriors of blind faith use Charisma as their practitioner modifier.
This class feature replaces the antipaladin/paladin’s spells class feature. A warrior of blind faith does not gain any spells or spellcasting abilities, does not have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger or spell completion magic items.

Now, why would you take the latter over the former, when the former's trade nets you two extra talents over the latter?

On that topic, a paladin (dirt spattered angel, warrior of blind faith) or an antipaladin (blood-soaked demon, warrior of blind faith) makes for a great 2-level dip for Charisma-based combatants. You miss out on smite evil, but you do earn two combat talents.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Stark_Naked
but it all feeds back into doing nothing in combat but killing people with pure damage.
That's not power-creep. That's losing out on versitility and Tier prominence. If anything, trading your Occultist shit for Combat Talents makes them an overall less competent class

WebTool
WebTool

@Soft_member

You mean like Proficiency Groups from 3.5 UA? Because those were a great
Martial traditions give you proficiencies above and beyond your base class *on top* of extra benefits from the other talents it grants you.

You mean like you could already do with the feat that gives you Talents, just like in SoP?
Spheres of Might is actually *different* in this regard, because the tradeoff is slanted in favor of combat talents. Consider the adept progression tradeoff from levels 1 to 12: you trade in your feats at levels 1, 5, and 9. In exchange, you gain combat talents at levels 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, and 12. That means you lose *three* feats but gain *nine* combat talents.

Also, if you actually knew how to read correctly, you'd know that Clerics and Druids can't exchange spells for talents, since they aren't 4th or 6th level casters
That is not what I am referring to at all. I am referring to the fact that clerics and druids can cash in a portion of their feat progression in exchange for a greater amount of combat talents, which is a very good deal.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Poker_Star
Now, why would you take the latter over the former
Because the former is a generalist rule-guide meant for future-proofing the product for classes that aren't yet considered, while the latter is a specific case with a specific effect for a single class that happens to correlate with the example.

It should be fairly obvious for anyone who doesn't have a stick up thier own ass and can actually understand context

DeathDog
DeathDog

@Methnerd

I am afraid you are mistaken. The Spheres of Might occultist in the examples above has traded in none of their spellcasting progression or implement progression at all.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@BlogWobbles

The warrior of blind faith is also a *terrible* implementation for a specific class, seeing how it is objectively inferior to cashing in a paladin's spellcasting for proficient progression.

The warrior of blind faith's only mechanical vindication comes from how it can combine with the dirt spattered angel and the blood-soaked demon.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@WebTool
which is a very good deal
And makes them lose out of thier crafting/metamagic/caster-feat progression, which is even more powerful and impressive in the long run in terms of maintaining versatility and Tier 1 status. If they trade most of their feats for Combat Training, they end up dropping from a Tier 1 to instead around a Tier 2, especially since they're still screwed mostly by Action Economy in regards to using either a spell or magic

TreeEater
TreeEater

@Illusionz

And makes them lose out of thier crafting/metamagic/caster-feat progression

Take a 12th-level cleric or druid. Cash in 1st-, 5th-, and 9th-level feats for adept progression. They now have access to nine combat talents.

They still have their 3rd- (good for Craft Wondrous Item), 7th-, and 11th-level feats to spare, with possibly one more as a human.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Illusionz
tier 1 goes to tier 2 because you have less feats
????????

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

party hasn't had a dungeon in a while
throw them in one with people they want to kill and loot they want to steal
first room is a puzzle made to deplete some resources
puzzle was supposed to be designed to split them up
party wants to butterball it
ptsd math flashbacks as soon as I say it uses linear algebra
whole session goes to shit
wake up next morning and realize I forgot why the puzzle works and could have avoided that whole problem
Someone just fucking end me

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@Poker_Star

The proficient progression trade also obsoletes the ranger (nature's blade) archetype:

Combat Training (Ex): A nature’s blade is considered an Adept practitioner, gaining spheres and talents as appropriate. Nature’s blades use Wisdom as their practitioner modifier.
This ability replaces the ranger’s spells class feature and the favored enemy class feature gained at 1st level. Rangers with this ability instead gain their first instance of favored enemy at 5th level.

Nature’s Allies: At 4th level, the nature’s blade can choose to not gain a hunter’s bond, but may instead expand their combat training by gaining either the Beastmaster or Warleader sphere and one additional talent from the corresponding sphere as bonus talents. If the nature’s blade already has one of these spheres, he may instead choose any talent from that sphere for which he qualifies.
This modifies hunter’s bond.

I do not see the point in sacrificing a ranger's first favored enemy when they could cash in their 4th-level spell progression for proficient progression instead.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Evil_kitten
make puzzle
don't keep a full paper of notes and explanations on how and why it works
you are own fault

King_Martha
King_Martha

@Evil_kitten
This is why I stopped using puzzles.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@King_Martha
To be fair to myself I was doing it correctly regardless of if I realized I was doing so

cum2soon
cum2soon

There is, in fact, a Darkness-themed archetype for the sentinel in Spheres of Might. Its actual name is the "darkness defender," although it notes that some call them "combat masochists" instead.

Alas, it is a terribly written archetype that looks like it was written by someone too intoxicated on the fumes of referencing their favorite anime series to realize how nonfunctional it is.

This is what a regular sentinel receives:
Wise Reflexes (Ex): A sentinel can use her Wisdom modifier in place of her Dexterity when determining her initiative and Reflex save bonus, although this bonus cannot exceed her class level.
In an ordained-defender-like manner, a sentinel has remarkable initiative and Reflex.

This is what a darkness defender gets:
Reckless Stance (Ex): At 1st level, a darkness defender can choose to take a -2 penalty to her armor class and Reflex saving throws until the beginning of her next round. If she does, she gains a +2 circumstance bonus to her CMD. At 5th level and every 4 levels afterwards, the penalty to her armor class and Reflex saves increases by -1 and the bonus to her CMD increases by +1. If the darkness defender uses the dedication ability from the Berserker sphere, these penalties stack.
This ability replaces wise reflexes.

This is completely dysfunctional. "The beginning of her next round" is nonsense, and there is no "dedication ability from the Berserker sphere." More importantly, as per the core rulebook, penalties to AC also apply to CMD, so the bonus to CMD is cancelled out by the penalty to AC. This means that the darkness defender has debuffed themselves for absolutely no reason! Even if the bonus to CMD *did* override the penalty to AC, why would you ever prioritize CMD over AC like that, and in exchange for Wisdom for initiative and Reflex?

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@cum2soon

This is what a regular sentinel receives:

Armored Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a sentinel can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with incredible resiliency, using a wall of steel to avoid the brunt of damage. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage.

Armored Stalwart (Ex): At 9th level, a sentinel can use solid steel along with mental and physical resiliency to avoid certain attacks. If she makes a Fortitude or Will saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, she instead avoids the effect entirely.

Armored Aegis (Ex): At 16th level, even when a sentinel fails a saving throw, if that save would have a reduced effect on a successful save (including half damage on a successful Reflex save), she suffers the reduced effect rather than the normal effect for failing that saving throw.

Evasion, stalwart, and improved evasion plus improved stalwart. Not bad.

These three "can only be used if the sentinel is wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying a heavy shield or tower shield," and they do not work if the sentinel is helpless, but such limitations are irrelevant in most battles.

This is what a darkness defender has:
Energizing Pain (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever a darkness defender empties her damage pool from the Guardian ability, if the amount of damage she takes from using that ability exceeds two times her character level + her Constitution modifier, she gains a +1 morale bonus to Fortitude and Will saves for 1 round. At 9th level and again at 16th level, this bonus increases by +1.
This ability replaces armored evasion, armored stalwart, and armored aegis.
Bonuses to Fortitude and Will are nice... but are they really worth trading in evasion, stalwart, and improved evasion plus improved stalwart?

Why was this archetype ever written?

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

want to run a /pfg/ game
no actual GM experience
haven't even played in over a year
no experience using Roll20
literally autistic

It was a nice thought at least

Soft_member
Soft_member

I want master Rappan Athuk, give me some advices pls

Snarelure
Snarelure

pdf download link when?

Firespawn
Firespawn

@Soft_member
Is it a campaign? Where can i find it?

StonedTime
StonedTime

@hairygrape

Concession: The Paizo occcultist indeed fares much better with Haste.

Counterpoint: The occultist still gains plenty for opting from a martial tradition, and if they do wish to make the most out of Haste (for all the standing still it requires), they can trade in a much smaller portion of their feats for a proficient progression.

I will see what can be done to showcase an 8th-level, spheremighting occultist who avails of full attacking with Haste.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

What's the best way to decide your character's personality? What is it that makes a character's personality compelling?

Bidwell
Bidwell

@AwesomeTucker
What makes a character compelling is it's flaws. You don't want to hear about personalityless murderhobo number 6967352748, you want to hear about a person who overcomes their flaws to become something truly amazing.

King_Martha
King_Martha

@StrangeWizard
want to run a /pfg/ game

Believe me, you don't.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@StonedTime

Case Study #3: Now with more Hasted full attacking.

This 8th-level dual talent human occultist wishes to make Hasted full attacks, but also seeks to avail of spheremighting power creep. They will trade in their 1st- and 5th-level feats for an adept progression, then take a martial tradition.

Feats:
• 3: Power Attack
• 7: Furious Focus

Martial Tradition: Heavy Armsman
• Berserker: Unbattered drawback, Savage
• Equipment: Armor Training, Custom Training (including butchering axe), Dwarven Heritage

Adept Progression:
• 2: Beastmastery: Ride package, Offensive Rider drawback, Animal Companion, remember that animal companions can take combat spheres except Beastmastery
• 3: Beastmastery: Pet (+4 initiative familiar, Alertness)
• 4: Beastmastery: Animal Companion, full level
• 6: Gladiator: Alternate Boast drawback, Bloodthirst
• 7: Gladiator: Derision
• 8: Gladiator: Fan Favorite

This occultist can do everything that the Paizo-only occultist in @massdebater
can do, except that they also have heavy armor proficiency, a backup option for standard action attacks (Brutal Strike), Alertness, a full-scaling animal companion that has traded in feats for spheremighting progression, and the ability to ping enemies with free attacks from various triggers (defeating enemies, enemies missing the occultist, succeeding on saving throws).

Once again, the occultist is almost strictly superior, and for very little opportunity cost.

iluvmen
iluvmen

desu what baffles me most is that the self proclaimed turbo optimizer didn't make the obvious half-elf choice for an optimal Occultist, since of having more focus to spend can make or break a lot. What, are you assuming every table just let's you ignore FCB race requirements/take the adopted feat from Avowed 2? Because fuck, that would be kinda nice.

likme
likme

What's a ley line?

hairygrape
hairygrape

@SomethingNew
So when are you gonna post the PDF so I can...fact check this. Yeah. I want to fact check and corroborate this.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@iluvmen
Elves suck.
@likme
Pesudo Science/Mysticism involving geographic patterns that channel magic.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@iluvmen
Or archetypes, actually. Seriously step it up.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@TalkBomber
Too bad they're the only ones with the +1/2 Mental Focus FCB, motherfucker.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@StrangeWizard
Coreids do as well

Flameblow
Flameblow

@AwesomeTucker
@Bidwell

Note that it is important to differentiate a character's flaw from a character's handicap. A handicap is something the character has to live with it and may or not overcoming it but it is not the actual core of the "story". A flaw is the character's fault, and he must work on it and learn from it or will cause serious trouble or even destroy him.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@lostmypassword
Third party being open means anyone gets it with a trait.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

PoW question: Can I swap a stance instead of a maneuver at even levels after 4th?

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Deadlyinx
Yes. Stances are maneuvers.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@ZeroReborn
Unlike with maneuvers, a rubato cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one he already knows.
Wrong.

iluvmen
iluvmen

@PurpleCharger
Does the trove even update anymore?

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@likme
Imagine the planet as a living thing, and magic is the planet's analogue for blood.

Ley Lines are veins and arteries.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Spamalot
rubato
wtf is a rubato? Also maneuvers have always been the umbrella to stances, counters, boosts and strikes. Just because a rubato doesnt let you, doesnt mean it isnt one
inb4 a long ass post crying about how it be like it do

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Spamalot
You can't trade in for higher level stances, nothing says you can't trade for a different stance of equal or lower level

@ZeroReborn
Every class has wording like that

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@ZeroReborn
wtf is a rubato?
The initiating archetype for Bard
Bruh, do you even know how to PoW?

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Deadlyinx
No. From the Stances Known section:
Unlike with maneuvers, the warder cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one she already knows.

Inmate
Inmate

@ZeroReborn
Stances are explicitly separate from maneuvers. Counters, boosts and strikes are all maneuvers, but stances aren't.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@Stark_Naked
You can't trade in for higher level stances, nothing says you can't trade for a different stance of equal or lower level
That's not what it says, though. It says you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels. That means if you learn a stance at 1st level you can't trade it out for a new one at 4th level.

TechHater
TechHater

@TreeEater
Well then I just read it wrong and have been too lazy to think it through, my bad.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@TechHater
Admitting he was mistaken instead of doubling down and arguing for dozens of posts
user, you are the hero we need, but not the hero we deserve. Thank you.

farquit
farquit

@idontknow
Boo, third party.

I was hoping to Stand without going outside

Methnerd
Methnerd

@farquit
Psychic, Medium, Spiritualist, Kineticist, Shaman, and Summoner still exist in 1pp, user.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@MPmaster
It's kind of depressing that something so basic is praiseworthy. I also have only ever gotten to use PoW for one game, and built maybe two characters to playable within its rules, and stopped tinkering with it because "discipline errata soon, fellow stalker!" was uttered at me. There wait is killing my enthusiasm.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@iluvmen
I'd just buy the fucking pdf if I didn't have to wait another week

happy_sad
happy_sad

@iluvmen
The trove is updated as materials are released, but mageguru waits until the street date to post cleaned PDFs so that QA can do its thing.

iluvmen
iluvmen

Is it just me, or can a fighter (coiled blade) not actually gain tension at class levels 3rd and 4th?

Offensive Pressure: Whenever the coiled blade successfully damages a creature with a weapon from one of his weapon training groups, he gains 1 tension.

A fighter has no weapon training groups until 5th level.

At the very least, they were kind enough to make the fighter (coiled blade) compatible with Path of War: Expanded's fighter (myrmidon). That should be a truly cancerous means of marrying the two subsystems, particularly when mixing Path of War martial traditions with Spheres of Might martial traditions. Of course, an even more abominable union would be a full initiator with both types of martial traditions and feats cashed in for an adept spheremighting progression.

Speaking of fighters, the one-level dipping potential in Spheres of Might is outrageous.

• A blacksmith 1 gains two combat talents and sharpen weapons, to grant themselves and their party a +2 bonus to manufactured weapon damage rolls.

• A conscript 1 is eligible for three combat talents with a sphere specialization, all good saving throws with indomitable will, and resolve.

• A cavalier (blooded knight) 1 gains three combat talents, a mount, and a cavalier order.

• A fighter (coiled blade) 1 gains a combat talent and a bonus martial tradition.

What were they thinking? This is the incanter all over again, albeit to a slightly lesser degree.

whereismyname
whereismyname

Anyone taken a look at SoM/SoP gestalt yet?

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@whereismyname
No, because Gestalt is cancer, and should be reserved for games where no one cares much about challenge or seriousness, so generally the types of games where you would have it, you generally won't care about optimizing since you'll already be pretty insane

That being said, Striker/Elementalist seems like an easy choice for it, if only to make a specific fighting game character

iluvmen
iluvmen

@BunnyJinx
This was never not about shenanigans. Thanks for the pointer, though!

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@BunnyJinx
should be reserved for games where no one cares much about challenge or seriousness

Or, y'know, games with too-small parties tackling challenges and games meant for full-sized groups. Something which I one day hope to see it actually used for god damn.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

Anyone want to make a PoW/SoM mix game?

WebTool
WebTool

@LuckyDusty
but how ridiculous would it get? well, for one, it would allow something like a Zealot to get a mount with almost no multiclassing. how is this Relevant? Zealots are TERRIFYING When mounted, because it means they can now actually move.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@farquit
boo third party
Fuck off and play 5e, you mogrel.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@BlogWobbles
My group does this. We have two players and one GM.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

Why playing a hero is so hard? and by hard I mean why playing a hero means you're going to die in the 1st or 2nd encounter after starting the game?

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@TalkBomber
I am incredibly jealous. My GM wanted to run a 2-PC game once and wouldn't look at it, then was confused when we lacked solutions to a ton of things and barely scraped by in most every encounter before getting swiftly obliterated by action economy and bad rolls.

King_Martha
King_Martha

Spheres Question.

I'm looking into homebrewing an archetype. How broken would an archetype that changes the Conjuration Sphere companion from being an extra planar creature to a magical beast?

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@King_Martha
Given you can do that with a Boon and make it a permanent, undispellable creature, it depends on how the rest of the thing functions

hairygrape
hairygrape

@BunnyJinx
it doesn't though

eGremlin
eGremlin

@BunnyJinx
Being a hero doesn't mean being the first to rush in like a stupid person. That's being an idiot.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@eGremlin
You can't die by rushing in like an idiot if you play a paladin because they're fucking immortal

Spamalot
Spamalot

@SomethingNew

• 6: Gladiator: Alternate Boast drawback, Bloodthirst
• 7: Gladiator: Derision
• 8: Gladiator: Fan Favorite

Addendum: It would probably be a good idea to take the Braggart drawback for this occultist build as well, thereby freeing up a talent slot.

StonedTime
StonedTime

Quick question
The Silksworn archetype for the occultist is good or it's better to go straight occultist?

Illusionz
Illusionz

@kizzmybutt
I was thinking the same way with it being "permanent" but you don't recover any spell points used in it's "summoning" until it dies or is reabsorbed and waiting 8 hours.

WebTool
WebTool

It is certainly effective to take a half-caster like a bard, a hunter, an inquisitor, an investigator, a magus, a mesmerist, an occultist, a skald, a vigilante, or a warpriest, then bolt onto them a Spheres of Might martial tradition and an adept progression simply by trading in a few feats.

Obviously, this produces very strong results. The end result is a half-caster with spheremighting combat talents and a fully-scaling spheremighting animal companion.

Let us try it again, this time, with an 8th-level human archer inquisitor using a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone for a +1 Seeking hornbow.

The Paizo-only inquisitor has the following feat progression:
• Human: Noble Scion (Narikopolus)
• 1: Point-Blank Shot
• 3: Precise Shot
• 5: Rapid Shot
• 7: Something retrained into Manyshot

This is completely typical for an archer inquisitor.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@WebTool

Let us kick it up a metaphorical notch with Spheres of Might. The inquisitor will trade in their 1st- and 5th-level feats for an adept progression, then take a martial tradition.

Feats:
• Human: Noble Scion (Narikopolus)
• 3: Rapid Shot
• 7: Something retrained into Manyshot

Martial Tradition: Animal Trainer
• Beastmastery: Ride package, Offensive Rider drawback, Pet (+4 initiative familiar, Alertness), Animal Companion, remember that animal companions can take combat spheres except Beastmastery
• Equipment: Bounty Hunter's Tools, Unarmored Training

Adept Progression:
• 2: Sniper
• 3: Barrage
• 4: Beastmastery: Animal Companion, full level
• 6: Barrage: Close Combat Specialist
• 7: Gladiator: Alternate Boast drawback, Braggart drawback, Bloodthirst, Fan Favorite
• 8: Gladiator: Theatrical Boast

The Spheres of Might inquisitor is objectively and utterly superior to the Paizo-only inquisitor. The spheremighter inquisitor has the effects of Point-Blank Shot from Barrage and Precise Shot from Sniper. Those two spheres give the inquisitor backup standard action attack options in case a full attack is not viable for whatever reason.

As usual, this spheremighter has a familiar for +4 initiative and Alertness, and a fully-scaling animal companion that can sacrifice some of its feats for an adept progression. Unarmored Training confers a +6 armor bonus to AC while unarmored that also applies against touch attacks, Close Combat Specialist means attacking with ranged weapons without provoking attacks of opportunity, and the Gladiator investment confers counterattacks with a bow on a regular basis.

The inquisitor's playstyle has not changed at all: stand still and shoot people while buffed.

Truly, martial traditions and cashing in feats for adept progression are pure power creep that do not meaningfully change playstyles away from "kill people with pure damage."

Emberburn
Emberburn

@StonedTime
Better caster, worse hitter.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Emberburn
It's worth it? I was thinking focusing on casting and skills mostly.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@StonedTime
Yes if that's what you want. Vanilla occultist could make himself a decent pure caster, but Silksworn's just better for that.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@eGremlin
Yeah, better wait till the enemy kills those innocents and is tired enough to be an easy encounter

Nojokur
Nojokur

@BunnyJinx
Because PF is a gamist game, not a narrativist, your character means shit and the only thing that matters are your rolls. Do you think Frodo would have survived in PF? nope, he would have died even before reaching Tom Bombadil's forest.

If you aren't a t1 caster, to be able to survive you have to be a coward.

iluvmen
iluvmen

@Booteefool
And what about the other innocents the enemy kills after it's killed you instead of you studying and beating the monster at an advantageous position?

FastChef
FastChef

@iluvmen
So you're a coward, got it.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@iluvmen
No Retreat, No Surrender

King_Martha
King_Martha

At least PoW didn't make you broken af with a single goddamn level :^)

Methshot
Methshot

@King_Martha
[Citation needed]

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@FastChef
@Booteefool
Niggers, let me tells you a lil'advise:
A cowardly nigglett runs away from a mean honky
A stupid nigger fights that honky gorilla like the nigger thinks he some kinda Mike Tyson
A smart negro picks his fights better and fights with his brains and not with some ghetto ass street fighting style.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@SomethingNew
I bet your mum told you "he will never be anything in life, meanwhile you'll study hard and get an awesome job, a gf, a family, etc" when you where bullied when little, so, how things turned out, nigger?

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Methnerd
browses /pfg/
Thinks he's a chad

I've never seen a more disiliusioned nigger ever, baka famalama

5mileys
5mileys

@Deadlyinx
I'm not a chad, but I never ran from a fight.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@whereismyname
Are the blue boxes supposed to represent where you can be hit, while red represents where you're hitting?

Methnerd
Methnerd

@5mileys
well, it's not hard to never run from a fight when you've never gotten into a fight to begin with.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@King_Martha
wrong tho

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@BlogWobbles
That's hardly the golems fault. The whole line of pit spells are basically save or lose for anything that can't fly or walk on walls.
BTW, I fucking love pit spells.

JunkTop
JunkTop

There is no spell where I can pay money to transform armor or a weapon from one material to another, is there? Like, masterwork transformation, except turning steel into mithral or adamant armor.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@5mileys
If you'd ever been to a real fight you'd be more keen to avoid those.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@hairygrape
disadvantage out of the metaphorical gate by being a regular human as opposed to a dual talent human.
Since when is shitty dual talent better than the extra goddamn feat?

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@CouchChiller
Dual talent is great for occultists.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Spazyfool
Tap the brakes there, big shoots.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Crazy_Nice
You know what's better? Having an extra feat with which to take Extra Mental Focus.

WebTool
WebTool

@cum2soon
@Ignoramus
why was this archetype ever written?
Dunno, ask Jolly. That shit wasn't in the playtest doc, and it has clearly suffered for it. Honestly I think SoM screwed the pooch by having so much hidden from the public eye.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@WebTool
Honestly I think SoM screwed the pooch by having so much hidden from the public eye.
And so much had to be hidden from the public eye because Ssalarn was such a fragile little flower that criticisms of his work really hurt his feelings.

askme
askme

@iluvmen
At the very least, they were kind enough to make the fighter (coiled blade) compatible with Path of War: Expanded's fighter (myrmidon).
What the fuck, they changed it from 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level feats to I assume 4/8/12/16/20 feats? Goddamnit Ssalarn you fucking idiot, you were given a very good reason for the 2/6/10/14/18 progression, and the moment someone asks on GitP why you go "I dunno" even though there's a fucking record on the playtest doc why.

takes2long
takes2long

People bitch about MArtials in based PF being shit
PoW is released
People bitch about PoW being overPoWered and 2hu spergs the fuck out
People bitch about casters being too versatile
SoP is released
2hu spergs the fuck out with minmaxed builds
People still bitching about maritals, and some say PoW is too overtuned/castery
SoM is released, which has classes that are almost all utility
2hu still spergs the fuck out
What the fuck? Can nothing please you motherfuckers? Also, what the fuck does 2hu even enjoy about this game if everything just makes him sperg uncontrollably? Is he secretly a Paizo shill or something?

So aside from 2hu's autism, what are other thoughts on SoM? Becuase after a brief look at it myself, I'd say that I actually enjoy quite a few classes and archetypes, and think most of it looks pretty cool. Though admittedly I haven't looked much into the Spheres themselves. Plus, you get archetypes that let you play as a Bloodborne Hunter or a Combat Chef, which is radical!

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@takes2long
Also, what the fuck does 2hu even enjoy about this game if everything just makes him sperg uncontrollably?

2hu has outright stated they hate basically every game and only play pathfinder to "make it less bad" or something along those lines.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@TalkBomber
I get the feeling that 2hu would criticize real life combat for not being "optimized" enough.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@haveahappyday
extra Int
extra spells
extra Int skill bonuses
+1 mental focus anyway
I'll take the Int.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@BunnyJinx
oO no you have 2 less Int on a race that gets +1 skill points per level anyway, and on a class that is starved for feats. How will you cope.

massdebater
massdebater

@BunnyJinx
Why the fuck aren't you taking the +2 that base human gives you to Int?

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@BunnyJinx
D&D was never meant to be heroic as a rule.

TechHater
TechHater

@takes2long

In the same way that Path of War: Expanded goes out of line by supercharging classes like the alchemist, the aegis, the inquisitor, the investigator, and the warpriest when those classes *did not need the help at all*, Spheres of Might pushes into overdrive nearly all of the half-caster classes due to the way martial traditions and feats-for-adept-progression work.

Upgrading martials is nice, but I do not see why all of those half-casters should be able to avail of such flagrant power creep as well, unless the point is to push everyone towards the territory of full spellcasters, which is a foolish and pointless goal.

Did all of those inquisitors (monster tactician) really need the privilege of martial traditions and adept progression?

@happy_sad
@massdebater

I personally prefer dual talent on a melee occultist for +2 Strength and +2 Intelligence, although I will freely concede that a regular human with Extra Mental Focus has its merits as well.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

>>55851745
So what you're saying is, had SoM just been a system unto itself, and not touch the casters in anyway, it would've been good?

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@TechHater
If you think that trading spells for martial talents makes those classes better you're more of an idiot than I thought. Literally all it does is open up more options for martial character concepts.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@TechHater
That's more of Monster Tactician's problem though, since that's a retarded archetype that should've never existed due to how Summons work in PF, and its kinda hard for options to take into account every single option that's ever been made or will be made by Paizo

Inmate
Inmate

@TechHater
Broken archetype gets stronger, not the archetype's fault though

Playboyize
Playboyize

@TechHater
Lose out on your spell versatility
in exchange for being more easily able to kill an enemy which you could already mostly 1shot with your Bane and Judgement
Its overPoWered memes all over again!

Evilember
Evilember

@CodeBuns

I think that aiming for the overall power/flexibility of Paizo's half-casters is generally a good idea. Somewhere around the archetypeless inquisitor is a good "sweet spot" for overall power level, options, and noncombat utility.

@Garbage Can Lid

Once again, we are not trading in any half-caster's spells. We are taking a half-caster, availing of a free martial tradition, and cashing in feats for an adept progression.

From levels 1 to 12, you trade in your feats at levels 1, 5, and 9. In exchange, you gain combat talents at levels 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, and 12. That means you lose *three* feats but gain *nine* combat talents.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@Playboyize

Yet again, we are *not* trading out spells. We are trading in a small amount of feats for a much greater amount of talents.

Path of War: Expanded's polymath and warpath follower are what sacrifice some amount of spells, but the sacrifice is small compared to the raw initiation power of those two archetypes.

If you really, really wanted to mix the two products, you could be an inquisitor (warpath follower) with both a Path of War martial tradition and a Spheres of Might martial tradition. Then you could cash in some of your feats for an adept progression and wield both initiating and passive spheremight talents.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Evilember
You're an idiot if you think "you can't trade in feats if you're a caster" is remotely elegant design or if it's worth denying the option to non-martial characters. Not to mention that in most cases you're probably better off just using those feats to improve your casting if you're actually a caster and not just a martial with some spells slapped on.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Stark_Naked
non-caster characters*

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Evilember
We actually did have an error there, the 'feats for spheres' chart was off in the final copy, that's going to be errata'd for the final copy. We do still have a thread on the DDS forums if there's things you'd like to discuss there.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@Stark_Naked
you're probably better off just using those feats to improve your casting if you're actually a caster and not just a martial with some spells slapped on.
This is what the half-casters usually are...

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

So is a Crossblooded Sage/Nanite Android Sorcerer a good build for an Iron Gods game?

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Methnerd
What the fuck happened to that Darkness archetype? Who got drunk and blew it?

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

tfw you'll never be an Iron Chef Blacksmith
tfw you will never guide your party to victory through proper nutrition and 3 square meals a day
ffw you will never announce to your party that you've come up with a new recipeh

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@BlogWobbles
You can't crossblood wild blood.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Methnerd
Why is junko such a good slut

idontknow
idontknow

@VisualMaster
That was me, and yeah, that's going to be getting errata'd too. It was one that wasn't updated to some of the new design notes, and thus ended up falling flat. It's going to be getting a redesign because of that. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@cum2soon
@Ignoramus
@idontknow
You had one job Jolly.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@idontknow
Jolly do you like blonde haired sluts y/n

happy_sad
happy_sad

@TurtleCat
I had literally dozens of jobs! Some on different books at the time!

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Soft_member
He doesn't like Megumin.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Methnerd
@idontknow
I-Is Spheres of Might gonna be one of those day 1 patch games?

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Poker_Star
cancer.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Stark_Naked

Not to mention that in most cases you're probably better off just using those feats to improve your casting if you're actually a caster and not just a martial with some spells slapped on.

And what exactly do you think, say, inquisitors, investigators, and hunters are, to name a few of the half-casters?

TechHater
TechHater

@Dreamworx
and he's a large part of what contributed to Forrest leaving.
Okay, so you're wrong as well as retarded. Forrest stepped away due to COLLEGE. You know, that thing that eats hours and hours of time, especially if you're going for a scientific field, and thus slows down or stops your posting? Forrest hasn't been communicating through any method or medium to anyone, not even other devs, and not even for her own Patreon, because life has gotten in the way. You're foolish to think that one person could actually cause all of this, unless you're truly and utterly idiotic.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@TechHater
Forrest left well before college started for her.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@ZeroReborn
If you play them as martials, they're improved. If you play them as casters, they're not. Idiot.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Poker_Star
Having objectively wrong opinions isn't a good sign. Makes it hard to have faith in him.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Methnerd
Occultists still get implements and a massive amount of spells. More importantly, a physical occultist was ALREADY going to be spending his feats on combat options (with one or two of them being spent to get extra Mental Focus, maybe Ability Focus if he really wanted one of his debuffs to stick). Trappings Of The Warrior builds are inherently less flexible than non-panoply Occultists, but they're also Full-BAB and have Martial Flexibility.

idontknow
idontknow

@Lord_Tryzalot
playing inquisitor/investigator/hunter as a pure caster
You literally can't. Idiot.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@happy_sad
Extra Mental Focus isn't THAT important if you're doing Trappings of the Warrior. I'd take like Improved Init over it.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

New thread

/tg/thread/55852337#p55852337
/tg/thread/55852337#p55852337
/tg/thread/55852337#p55852337
/tg/thread/55852337#p55852337

askme
askme

@takes2long
I've been running SoM and it's been going great. Playing a Commander now, and they add to fights in ways you wouldn't expect. Really happy with that choice.

Sage, which hasn't been released yet, comes with some really fun magic monk concepts. You can even play a tiny character and have a great chance of succeeding at some combat maneuvers against foes much larger than you.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@Crazy_Nice
Fuck you, we're on page 4.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Bidwell
We've been doing threads on page 2 and 3 recently.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Bidwell
Considering that he always makes it his players' fault for not taking the most optimal decisions? Yes, yes he would.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@TurtleCat
That doesn't mean we should continue the trend fucktard.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

New thread

/tg/thread/55852455#p55852455
/tg/thread/55852455#p55852455
/tg/thread/55852455#p55852455

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