Pathfinder General /pfg/

Pathfinder General /pfg/

What is your favourite type of minion and why is it golems?

/pfg/ Link Repository: pastebin.com/fr9piFCi
Current Playtests: pastebin.com/vK9njh31

Old Thread:

Is Spheres of Might any good for out-of-combat stuff, or are we just retreading PoW where everybody goes gaga over it and then realizes later that it has a bunch of gaps?

The latter, as always.
Let's be real, nobody is going to want to build for anything but to "win."

I've seen it a million times before--players who aren't smug normies around to go "lel I'm such a nerd" will inevitably just want to trivialize encounters, and then complain about how they're bored.

I think it's bad game design in general to make roleplay or non-combat options for a character compete with combat. It's a lot easier to estimate the usefulness of a combat option because damage is a metric, but roleplay or non-combat is a lot harder to judge. Also, if two options are similar in all categories except one metric like damage, it's not really a "choice" when there are strictly superior options.

I hope that SoM realized this and accounted for it.

The worst part is when the excuses they make.
>I'm not really that optimized, if anything I'm taking the underpowered options
>Well, the game is just broken so I'm clearly not the one at fault
>What am I supposed to do, take the trap options?
>But my character would take this option over the others
>We should just play Legends of the Wulin/5e/GURPS

I haven't seen the full release, but I remember Athletics have a good amount of Utility

>We should just play Legends of the Wulin
But you should. 5e and GURPS are trash though.

What is it you guys actually want out of 3pp martials? Every time I hear about some new thing, it's always riddled with complaints.

>Oh it does more damage than X 1pp class
>Oh it has more utility than X 1pp class
>Oh it has more staying power than X class

I thought 1pp classes were broken and terrible, so why are you so insistent on comparing them to 3pp? Is /pfg/ secretly all GitP posters?

Personally most everything I'd want out of a 1pp martial, save maybe having a few bonus feats, can be done by an Occultist. Hell, everything I want out of classes in general, besides "is an arcane spellcaster" is done by Occultist.

All martial classes should be designed like the Vigilante

So why aren't you sated yet? The thing you want already exists. Why even encourage these 3pp devs to make things you don't even want?

>What is it you guys actually want out of 3pp martials?
For me I want a martial class that isnt trivialized by just playing a wizard. I really love playing wizards. They are by far my favorite class to play. But sometimes I want to play a rogue or a meat shield.

Highly versatile talent trees with both in and out of combat, but horrible chained down on what kind of a campaign is being ran?

>a martial class that isnt trivialized by just playing a wizard
Can it be done? How would you do it?

Not by buffing the martial to the level of a wizard, but buffing the martial and nerfing wizard until they finally meet somewhere middle. That or just give everything 35 spell resistance at later levels.

>nerfing wizard
you basically have to kill the vancian spell list for that though. And sure SoP does that, but you nogs complain that it's too strong at low levels. You're never happy, are you?

>but buffing the martial and nerfing wizard until they finally meet somewhere middle.
So basically by replacing Vancian with SoP and giving/replacing Martials with SoM?

Nah, you could just strip most of the wizard spells and make them school-specialization exclusives with a few remaining available for all to choose.

>strip most of the wizard spells and make them school-specialization exclusives
So basically what Spheres does, where you're almost required to specialize in either 1-2 different themes, and the actual powerful stuff is locked behind DM Permission

Because it can still only do it a certain way, and there should be more than one way to skin an orc

I honestly dont know how it can be accomplished. Nerfing a wizard is almost always out of the question just because all it has is 9th level casting. It has no chassis to build off of. You would have to buff it first then nerf it, which idk.

As for martials, while I like the vigilante, the better archetypes for it are just give it spell progression. I almost feel like there needs to be a kind of heroic progression for martials. Not PoW, but more like talents that scale into late game. Versatile but relevant at different stages of the game.

DMs always just blanket ban advanced talents at chargen, and then forget about them later. I would love to have specific bonus abilities gained from specific quests, and not just "oh sure this is allowed when you level up". Give me gameplay motivations to roleplay.

>Nerfing a wizard is almost always out of the question just because all it has is 9th level casting.

That's why you remove the wizard completely and replace it with the magician bard.

Are you telling me that feats and abilities should... What's the word... Scale? We can't have that, imagine if something like Power Attack scaled!

Golems are pretty shitty, all you need is Create Pit and it might as well not even be there.

So, Everyone's talking about SoM, but what about the Vivomancer's HAndbook. I know it was released recently, but is it any good?

>Bard
>Not Occultist
ishggydggy

Occultist works too. Magician Bard just comes to mind because Perform (oratory) means you can have magic powered by ominous chanting.

Its not combat though, they do plenty of damage in most instances and there are lots of 3pp that buff damage. Its the other stuff that needs love.

So why not just some sort of talent thing that doesn't actually cost anything to use, and is proportional to BAB or something, with a caveat for rogue being counted as full.

Because in most instances, just playing a wizard is easier and a lot of the time more efficient. If the wizard can do it, the fighter, rogue, ranger, monk and paladin should be able to as well, even if it is just within their own niche.

That's why I said doesn't cost anything to use, meaning no feats to get it, or playing specific classes. Just a universal subsystem that's added on.

Re-request from last thread, does anyone have any advice on building an Oozemaster-type character with Spheres? I've been considering Thaumaturge and going switch hitter with Slime Transformation and acid blasts

Oh I see what you mean. Yes, just a secondary system that overlays on top of the lower tier classes. Even if it is a specific one or one that is key'd to certain ability scores.

Either Creation or Nature Sphere to create and shape copious amounts of inanimate slime

I'm looking to get started in pf, and I was looking for advice. I'm 100% familiar with 5e, and have heard the two systems are fairly similar. Should I just go through and read every last thing in the pastebin, or is there a better starting point for me? There's a convention coming up where I live that will be offering next to no 5e but a shitton of pf, so I figure now is as good a time as any to learn.

Creation Sphere handbook has a talent for creating oozes.

Golems are pretty sweet, though I am hype for when Spheres of Might gets added to the wiki so I can have a golem spheres companion that I can ride as it runs along walls and shield blocks for me.

>Virgin wizard vs Chad Occultist

Someone make that meme, I wanna see it for shits n giggles

The pastebin is full of stuff you won't really be using if you're just getting started. Look at the trove (hiveam/PFTrove) and grab the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook (in the Core Rules folder). That can give you a good grasp of the rules, but it's a heck of a long read. Going through the Beginner Box will be much quicker, but will give you an abridged survey of all the rules in the game.

>golems
I would if they were not cost prohibitive. I would love nothing more than to open a factory and start cranking my mechanical army out.

So I settle for more readily available materials.

Is there ever a reason to grab any other rank of monstrous physique than the first one so you can gargoyle it up? The rest of them have either such limited choices or poor choices that they don't seem to be worth the slot.

P O P P E T S
O
P
P
E
T
S

>virgin wizard
>has to choose between a dinky arcane bond or some yappy animal
>wears goofy robes, can't wear armor because it messes up his yoga moves for spellcasting
>has no class features apart from bonus feats and spellcasting
>falls over when someone looks in their direction menacingly
>needs to use mind control and enchantments in order to get qt elves to even consider him
>no physical stats
>yells shit at enemies to cast spells
>relies on no-save spells and abilities
>unoriginal

>chad Occultist
>gets the option to use whatever the fuck he wants for his implements: can swing dildo and use a pillow as weapon and shield
>outfights a Barbarian
>kicks the Medium in the shins, steals his qt spirits
>twice as many skills as the Wizard, far more knowledgeable
>superior physical form, cited as a paragon of masculinity
>has no issues wearing armor, relishes in it, can wear breastplate
>swings around martial weapons
>refuses to even consider speaking or doing chuuni weeaboo hand gesture shit: points implement and thinks the enemy dead
>enemies want to touch his implements
>women fawning over his superior BaB and larger hitdice
>has no use for some class features
>literal harry dresden

I had to postpone my Constantinople game since the LGS is having an event, and I've been too busy at work to do stuff with the game and at home.

At least I can use the next two weeks to make it a grand adventure fighting Grenadier Sahuagin in the Galata district.

I still need a final encounter. I'll probably go with a Cleric of Sekolah and a bunch of generic Sahuagin. If it looks like the battle is going against the PCs, their allies at the Cult of Velsharoon can help them out by placing Sahuagin skeletons under their command.

Sorry, but I have to go with Skeletons. They're cheaper, and feel like they have more personality.

Wonder how'd this look the other way around

>Virgin occultist
>Indecisive so has to have a thousand options open or be triggered
>Not even a real caster, relies on physical bulk instead of superior intellect
>Bullies weaker classes like medium to feel important
>Has to wear armor like a weak coward
>Can't cast spells if mildly anxious
>Needs weapons to feel masculine
>Creepily stares at enemies to cast spells
>Has useless class features

>Chad wizard
>Gracefully weaves the fabric of the universe with word and movement alike
>Needs no armor like a man and is a Veeky Forumsbulous dresses
>Uses all class features perfectly and needs no excess
>A true classis
>Needs only the power of his mind to dominate the battlefield
>Chicks dig the familiar
>Refuses to play by the rules by making his own
>Most talked class in the game

My current campaign setting has Spheres and some Strange Magic as the main kind of magic, but I'm not sure about Alchemy or Occultists. Alchemy is one of the only times Vancian magic makes any sense, and I don't even know where to begin converting Occultist to Spheres, so I'm considering leaving them as-is. Would it seem too out of place to have a handful of Vancian casters in a mostly Spheres world?

Golems are really, really shitty and cost inefficient unfortunately.

You can do spheres alchemy by just saying Alchemists are mixing shit on the spot. Maybe make some kind of custom alchemist chemical mixing glove and make it a focus casting requirement.

As for Occultist. That's going to be more in depth since the Occultist's basic class design makes assumptions about the setting that Spheres for the most part tries to avoid.

Not really. Alchemy and psychic casting are completely different from arcane and divine and occultists and alchemists are probably the most minor offenders as far as vancian casting goes (due to limited spell levels, spell lists and generally not being entirely reliant on pure casting).

How would you even go about making a class that's reliant on Casting/Manifesting but only gets up to like 6th level Spells/Powers?

Having those two as Vancian is fine. Just think of the Occultist as more of a Spell-Slinger, and the Implements he uses as Guns. Each gun has a particular caliber of ammunition its suited for, and its own strengths and weaknesses, however you can still load it with special custom rounds that you need.

Plus it makes sense for the Occultist. Occultists don't cast or create magic themselves, they invoke it from the magic and emotional imprint latent within thier implements. You're essentially cheating your way into magic by letting some artifact do the heavy lifting, yet its ultimately limited in what it can do since only specific forms of magic can be held in the implement.

Think of it like science class. While the other kids are trying to memorize equations and concepts to answer questions, you're the lazy bastard who relies almost solely on flashcards, writing on your hand, and a few mnemonics.

Like a Bard or Cryptic?

Last I checked bards where buff despensers/gishes and Cryptics were also gishes that just relied on conductive shot guns.

Are electrum pieces a thing?

Make it like an Occultist. Your class abilities give you come options and thematic choices based on your choice of specialization in magic. Take your theme as the magic man, and play with it some.

>still no initiating cryptic that's compatible with the akashic one

sadness

All 6th level casters are gishes, since they get the average hit dice and BAB.

Do you want a Wizard that has no other class features, and can only get up to 6th level spells?

How would you guys differentiate a mob of goblins and a mob of orcs? I mean not their asthetics or how they look, but in terms of their role in your campaign.

Oh, no 'noble' Warcraft Orcs kind of shit.

>goblins
hungry fuckers
>orcs
angry fuckers

Mob of goblins goes around on a whim or being pushed around by something smarter than them while orcs would probably be riled up by one of their own and leave a lot fewer corpses with bite marks.

Goblins are just swarms of disorganized rabbles, either doing their own thing on the edges of society or being forced to do things at the behest of someone bigger.

Orcs are more tribal and organized, hit and run raids, banditry, working together under someone stronger or more magically inclined.

I hear talks about a "Legendary Kineticist" class and I can't find it. I downloaded the Legendary Kineticist pdf and it wasn't in there. Am I being retarded?

On a semi-related note, did anybody notice that coreids from Bloodforge: Infusions can be easily refluffed as psionic slimefolk? Just say that they have a crystalline core that creates protective mucus shaped into humanoid form.

>Finally grab SoM
>Check the progression rules
>4th casters still only get Proicient, while the 6th caster scum get Adept
REEEEEEEEEEEEE!
The other way around would make more sense! A Paladin should have more martial skill than a fucking bard!

It's in the Spheres of Power wiki

I never noticed that, thanks for pointing it out. In my WIP campaign setting there's an island of slimefolk that I was intending to make Squoles, but Coreids would fit much better.

Thanks friend, I never noticed it there. Where does it originate from if not Legendary Kineticists?

What the fuck does gish mean?

Legendary Kineticists 2

A dude that fights and does magic fuckery too

It means "person who is good at both magic and combat". ie your typical spellblades and such.

The phrase originated as a name for a special type of Githyanki soldier that was a master at both swordplay and spell-play, and was eventually adapted into common ttrpg nomenclature

>hungry fuckers

You're behind the times.

What is Pathfinder's best gish?

>I never noticed that
I did recently when looking over Con races that would fit a kineticist (gambler). I really like the idea of psionic slimegirls who are in fact just crystals making puppet-bodies to protect themselves and interact with the world. It would be great if DSP made an ART to enable that option without refluffing.

Wow, such edge.
It's like if Virt were still alive and with us today.

Occultist

That shit is not good.
That shit was never good.
It wasn't even shocking.
It would've been better as a fucking comedy.

Bladebound Spiritualist. All the benefits of magus, plus more and a far better spell list. They lose out on minimal utility because they're spontaneous casters, but if you chose a race that gets +1 spell per level as the favored class bonus, it doesn't impact much.

Define "best". Do you mean higest damage? Most versatile kit? Good at blending magic and combat in an interesting way?

Nearly all the Gishes are good at something. Plus, even some fullcasters can count as Gishes, such at the Cleric, Druid, Oracle, and Shaman.

There are also some builds that can countas gishes, such asthe infamous Oradin Build

And how do you think that fatass got that big? He ate a bunch of the other goblins.

Yeah, that's what I had envisioned. My only concern was save DC's, but that's less of an issue because the class is Psionic.
I still have no fucking clue what abilities to give to Clarasentience and Psychoportation specced characers

>it's been two years

I'd like something like that as well. In the mean time I intend to make them humanoids with the aberrant and slimeblood subtypes.

I want to actually be reasonably good at combat without being pigeonholed into doing the same cheese-tactics over and over.

I want to actually be reasonably good out of combat and have power to have an effect on the story in ways that aren't just killing things.

I want to have variety in the above, so that things don't simply become boring.

So far, the only thing I've actually seen accomplish this is Warder when you purposely try to not go insane, and the weird ass combination of Rogue stuff from like forty different sources that I've cobbled together.

What are some examples of good out of combat abilities that aren't just "more skills" or magic?

I have two vigilante social talents that I feel describe this perfectly.
>Mockingbird (Ex): The vigilante can mimic almost any sort of voice, or even animal calls and sound effects, and he can throw his voice at a distance. This functions similarly to a combination of the ghost sound, ventriloquism, and vocal alteration spells. A vigilante must be at least 5th level to choose this talent.
And from Legendary Vigilante's.
>Keep ‘em Talking (Ex) The vigilante knows how to engage a
foe with their words alone, making an opposed diplomacy
check against a foe. If successful, the foe becomes fascinated
for 1 minute, conversing with the vigilante. If the vigilante’s
diplomacy check is greater than their foe’s by 10 or more,
the foe reveals an incriminating fact about themselves or
an associate of themselves. A vigilante can use this ability
at will, but they can only use it against a specific creature
once per day. They can spend a standard action to further
fascinate the foe for another minute, each time granting
that creature a +5 cumulative bonus to their Diplomacy
check to realize what the vigilante is doing. Once a foe
defeats the vigilante in this opposed diplomacy

Hell, just keep them aberrations, give them the slimeblood subtype, and make their regeneration work in water instead of random stuff and you're good to go.

Stealing all of this by the way.

>good out of combat is just Ex spells
There's no hope

More skills, where skills are actually assumed to be useful for things that aren't explicitly written in the book. If a skill reasonably applies to a thing, then let it do the thing.

Crafting mundane items that are able to help the party in useful ways, and having things that keep them scaling into the later game properly.

>Flavorful utility is bad if it uses the biggest example of utility as a baseline!

Athletics, scout, and scoundrel all have nice utility, especially if legendaries are allowed.

It's an EX version of several spells at once.

And yes, it is. It's not a spell, it's just easier to describe it using a spells terminology. It's the same way chameleons are considered to be constantly under an EX effect of spider climb.

Need some advice. I’m currently playing a human Kensei magus and about to reach 3rd but I don’t know what feat to take. I’ve got dodge and combat casting.

Do you need to use different hands for your somatic component and focus or material component?

>kensai magus
>dodge instead of finesse

shit nigga what are you doing

Rolled stats str and dex ended up the same. Went with katana for the higher damage

>rolled stats

run, run far away

>rolled stats

Well, guess I can't really fault you there even if it's not my jam. Hope your Int is good too. Have you tried looking at any of the guides yet?

If he's already at level 3 I'm pretty sure he's way past that point bruh.

>Rolled stats
Get out of there.

Yeah, new gm, old one did point build. And most guides are for dex base Kensei

>str and dex ended up the same.
Shame you aren't a Fighter or Vigilante, you could've gotten some good support for that.

Anyway, Since you probably have the Str for it, go ahead and take Power Attack if you want. Or maybe Combat Expertise instead since its going to be a prereq for a bunch of other feats,

One thing you should know: the Dodge feat is actually a trap.

a) +1 AC is really easy to get from other sources
b) at high level AC doesn't really matter much (compare to having spells like Mirror Image active all the time)
c) having feats like Power Attack and Furious Focus is way better than having Dodge and Mobility