/STG/ - Star Trek General

hairygrape
hairygrape

Disregard the Prime Directive, Fuck Ba'ku Bitches Edition

Previous Thread: /tg/thread/55792718#p55792718

A thread for discussing the Star Trek franchise and its various tabletop iterations.

Possible topics include Star Trek Adventures - the new rpg being produced by Modiphius - and WizKids’ Star Trek: Attack Wing miniatures game, as well as the previous rpgs produced by FASA, Last Unicorn Games and Decipher, the Starfleet Battles Universe, and Star Trek in general.

Game Resources

Star Trek Adventures, Modiphius’ 2d20 RPG
-Official Modiphius Page/Living Campaign rescources
http://www.modiphius.com/star-trek.html
Playtest Materials (via Biff Tannen)
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/36m6c22co6y5m/Modiphius%20Star%20Trek%20Adventures
Reverse Engineered Character Creation.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2ofDX0-7tgHojjk7sKcp7uVFSK3M52eVP45gKNJhgY/edit?usp=sharing

Older Licensed RPGs (FASA, Last Unicorn Games and Decipher)
http://pastebin.com/ndCz650p

Other (Unlicensed) RPGS (Far Trek + Lasers and Feelings)
http://pastebin.com/uzW5tPwS

WizKids’ Star Trek: Attack Wing Miniatures Game
-Official WizKids Page (Rules and Player Resources)
http://wizkids.com/attackwing/star-trek-attack-wing/

GF9games Star Trek: Ascendancy Board Game
-Official Page
http://startrek.gf9games.com/

Lore Resources

Memory Alpha - Canon wiki
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:Main

Memory Beta - Noncanon wiki for licensed Star Trek works
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Fan Sites - Analysis of episodes, information on ships, technobabble and more
http://pastebin.com/mxLWAPXF

Star Trek Maps - Based on the Star Trek Star Charts, updated and corrected
http://www.startrekmap.com/index.html

/stg/ Homebrew Content
http://pastebin.com/H1FL1UyP

All urls found in this thread:
http://www.modiphius.com/star-trek.html
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/36m6c22co6y5m/Modiphius%20Star%20Trek%20Adventures
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2ofDX0-7tgHojjk7sKcp7uVFSK3M52eVP45gKNJhgY/edit?usp=sharing
http://pastebin.com/ndCz650p
http://pastebin.com/uzW5tPwS
http://wizkids.com/attackwing/star-trek-attack-wing/
http://startrek.gf9games.com/
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:Main
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://pastebin.com/mxLWAPXF
http://www.startrekmap.com/index.html
http://pastebin.com/H1FL1UyP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPcVf-qQzxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_c1Odol9xw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP1VoH_0l-E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yujyd22CGM8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0cFLb-JmaQ
http://www.modiphius.com/star-trek.html
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/0w33ywljd1pdt/Star_Trek_Adventures
http://pastebin.com/ndCz650p
http://pastebin.com/uzW5tPwS
http://wizkids.com/attackwing/star-trek-attack-wing/
http://startrek.gf9games.com/
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:Main
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://pastebin.com/mxLWAPXF
http://www.startrekmap.com/index.html
http://pastebin.com/H1FL1UyP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULeDlxa3gyc
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Crossfield_class
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/The_Wounded_Sky
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Akorem_Laan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOWpgx1WZYA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaX3U1w2Kjg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwhAq3F8NCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2ftCitvyQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w34fSnJNP-4
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/bb8ef1ef-6463-4404-a7cc-5045418bb997/Ambassador-class-Starship-hybrid-WIP
Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@hairygrape
Baku planet is the same planet that the Augments from Enterprise were going to settle
The Baku are actually human augments that are really good at hiding

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Lord_Tryzalot
Okay, mild confused query; what's the difference between whatever Julian Bashir is and an Augment?

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Skullbone
Technicalities of the way they were altered, basically. Bashir is basically an Augment who didn't have the ambition or drive to be evil.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Skullbone
Essentially nothing. The Augments were merely overly ambitious to the point of being tyrannical.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Skullbone
Bashir was modified in the 24th century while the 'Augments' were created in the 20th century.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Skullbone
Bashir is impressive, but he's still totally within human limits. He's an excellent athlete, and he's clearly very intelligent, but he was basically just bumped up from "below average mentally deficient person" to "highly intelligent guy with excellent physical gifts".
Augments conversely are WAY outside the human norms of biological limitations; Khan was significantly stronger then even a Vulcan or Klingon was, in addition to healing far more efficiently and being ridiculously intelligent, so much so that he's able to relatively intuitively put together how to efficiently and dangerously use advanced technonology with very little construction, and that's even if you AREN'T considering the Cumberbatch version of Khan.

It's not really much of an exaggeration to say that Augments performed in average so outside human physical limitations that they could be considered a completely separate species to regular humans. You could even hypothesize that they couldn't interbreed with regular humans due to how much bullshit was added into them as "genetic baseline".

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Sharpcharm
Bashir is impressive, but he's still totally within human limits.
This is in fact completely false, Bashir was shown displaying feats of dexterity and intelligence beyond any natural human capability.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@eGremlin
In all fairness, Bashir got a leg up compared to regular folks but he wasn't a superhuman genetically engineered purely for war.
Somebody who was built and born from the ground up to kill and conquer might have a hard time thinking along peaceful lines; it'd be like trying to teach a gun to paint.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@Sharpcharm
@BinaryMan
Right, but Bashir didn't seem any more capable than your average Vulcan. Augments were on a whole other level.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@BinaryMan
Which ones?
The most we get of his physical capability is that he can keep up with Vulcans while playing space racketball, and he actually still says that he lost to them.

King_Martha
King_Martha

@Lord_Tryzalot

As much I'd like this to be true, this would have been something they detected when they scanned the Baku and Son'a the first time.

@Skullbone

Well, Julian was "upgraded" at age seven. Khan and the others were upgraded as embryos. The major thing is that although Julian is superior to a human being, he wasn't made using the same process that made Khan, so he lacks the outrageous ambition that the true Augments have. But Bashir is also a fluke - he didn't end up extremely messed up due to the illegal and very experimental nature of genetic augmentation.

takes2long
takes2long

Keeping in mind what full blown augments were capable of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPcVf-qQzxM

SniperWish
SniperWish

@takes2long
See; that's what I mean.
Bashir was extremely gifted, but Augments are so completely beyond what normal humans are physically capable of that no human could ever physically match one.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@SniperWish
Except Kirk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_c1Odol9xw

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Nojokur
Lets be honest, no one can prepare or defend themselves from Kirk's crazy brand of circus wrestling

Firespawn
Firespawn

@Nojokur
Or Riker, what with him manhandling that Klingon during that episode where he takes over the Klingon ship.
With Kirk though I'm not even sure it was decided that Klingons were any stronger then anybody else yet.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Nojokur
@lostmypassword

That and Khan is so up his own ass about his own superiority that he doesn't just stun Kirk after taking the phaser, just ruins it with a show of force.

@Firespawn

Klingon strength is something you just have to take with a grain of salt. They tend to get their asses kicked even by regular folks, and poor Worf is a magnet for every tough guy looking for something to prove.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Nojokur
No one was Kirk's match in hand-to-hand combat, though. That's not a fair comparison, since nothing is a fair comparison to Kirk's two-fisted flailing.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Lord_Tryzalot
I thought his loss to them came from before he was outed, as part of a deception to make himself look highly athletic but still within natural human capability.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Firespawn
Or Riker, what with him manhandling that Klingon during that episode where he takes over the Klingon ship.
He was using ju-jitsu, strength doesn't matter quite as much.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Snarelure
And we have no direct evidence of him being superior physically to Vulcans after that deception is dropped. Hell, he plays baseball against them and gets *completely smoked*. He isn't physically superior to Vulcans.

cum2soon
cum2soon

Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Delivery. Its continuing mission: to explore strange new foods, to seek out new toppings and new recipies, to boldly go where no one has gone before.

massdebater
massdebater

@AwesomeTucker
Hell, he plays baseball against them and gets *completely smoked*.
Overall I agree with you, but Bashir's mental capabilities are demonstrated as being super-human on numerous occasions, and he has a similar amount of natural dexterity.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Soft_member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP1VoH_0l-E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yujyd22CGM8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@cum2soon

to boldy deliver in 30 minutes or less where no one has delivered before

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@massdebater
The argument was that he was physically the superior to a Vulcan. I showed he isn't. Mentioning his mental abilities is irrelevant to that argument.

Also, while his mind is clearly super-human, it probably isn't any sharper than what we've seen Vulcans do. Likely, he's closer to Vulcan than human mentally, which seems fair.

@Emberfire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE [Embed]
Ok, that is actually completely fantastic. Well played, sir.

@cum2soon
What's the Delivery's prime directive?

MPmaster
MPmaster

@ZeroReborn
That is totally not how jiujutsu even works and I have a belt to prove it.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@haveahappyday
What's the Delivery's prime directive?
The Delivery has a strict policy of non-intervention when it comes to other civilizations menu choices.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@MPmaster
But user, spacejutsu can involve anything. How dare you claim you know better than Will Riker, who manages to defeat Klingons twice his size and defeated the Borg!

King_Martha
King_Martha

Not gonna lie, I snickered sincerely at the bridge crew all just goofing off in the mess getting Bortus to eat a cactus. Feels like completely believable bullshit that Starfleet crews would do in their spare time.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Skullbone
They never really specify the exact definition of the word. It might refer specifically to the sub-species of human created by late 20th century genetic egineering. In which case Bashir isn't one because he doesn't that those particular genetic modifications. Or it might be a general term for anyone who's genetically enhanced. Which would mean Bashir is an augment. In either case the term seems to have fallen out of use after the 22nd century.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@King_Martha
NEW SHIP ALERT!

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@King_Martha
a captain actually expressing concern and fear before going on an away mission in enemy territory
Thank you, Orville. Even when you pull the same shit of sending the Captain and an officer away alone on an away mission, you manage to make it actually make sense and also feel more human.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Crazy_Nice
Thank you, Orville.
Hearing this a lot. Glad to know there's at least one decent Star Trek show on TV these days.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Poker_Star
I don't know how much of it is legitimately good, and how much is just being better than literally any official Trek for over 15 years, if not longer.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@VisualMaster
It being better than STD and ENT is probably helping it a great deal, yeah. Shame that the two most recent Trek series have both been so mediocre to bad.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

So how much physical augmentation does a normal human have access to in DS9/VOY era? Like on a scale of 1 (Nothing) to 10 (Adeptus Mechanicus Magos), how impressive could someone get by adding on or replacing limbs/organs/etc?

MPmaster
MPmaster

@TurtleCat
Pretty godlike.

Imagine Khan. Now give him telekinesis, telepathy and longevity.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@TurtleCat
Generally speaking, unless it is medically required, the Federation seems to completely disregard augmentation tech. So, probably, very little, maybe a 2 (since stuff like the VISOR and Picard's replacement heart exist).

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@TurtleCat
@viagrandad
There's a difference between what's allowed and what's possible. What's allowed are corrections for defects or injuries which we understand to be generally designed to replace missing functionality rather than enhance it. As to what's possible, well, we get glimpses of all kinds of things, but since they're unsanctioned we can't really say what the state of the art is.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@AwesomeTucker
Oh, if we're talking about what is *possible*, then the sky's the fucking limit, literally, since you'll have to do it all in space probably. Replicator and holodeck technology combined can probably produce just about any upgrade to the human form anyone ever wanted and given that the Federation is a heavily scientific place, the knowledge to attach said upgrade to the body certainly exists somewhere, probably for the asking. All it would take to be some kind of cybernetic god is access to the right tools and some dedication.

For fuck's sake, the most complex artificial lifeform in the Federation, Data/Lore, were made by a lone dude in his fucking garage. If he can make insanely complex *life* in his free time, I bet someone else could become a cybernetic god to make JC Denton jealous.

askme
askme

@TurtleCat
I wasn't even thinking in terms of cybernetics, just on genetics alone there are extreme possibilities.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@askme
Dude asked about physical augmentation, which is why I went there. If you want genetics, we have evidence that they can do some fairly good things, but not insanely complex stuff like new limbs or body functions or anything, just enhancements. Still, possibilities are there and I trust that if the Federation cared to do the research, they could probably do some insane things. The will just isn't there though, so practically speaking, there is little access or possibility for that kind of genetic enhancement.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Emberfire
Follow-up question: At what point do you think Starfleet would turn away an augmented individual? I know they're super against people like Bashir because of Khan, but would that same fear extend to a dude (or chick) with Doc Oc arms (for example)?

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@BinaryMan
If they were a Federation citizen before getting their augmentations, then Starfleet would turn them away and probably arrest them for their trouble.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@BinaryMan
Starfleet and other Federation agencies (but not all, it's not like they're forever jobless) turn away anyone who has even the slightest bit of augmentation, on the grounds that it would encourage parents to augment their kids so they can get the prestigious jobs.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@BinaryMan
Absolutely it would. Starfleet does not engage in these kinds of experimentation because of the potential for abuse that has been shown on occasions in their history. I imagine other member races of Starfleet have had this issue as well, which reinforces their fears.

Look, I like experimentation and alteration of the human form too, but Star Trek is not the place for this. They have the tech but are fundamentally opposed to the practice on a deep and base level. I recommend you find a second sci-fi universe to satisfy this impulse as, while you *can* force Trek to do it, everything in the setting doesn't want you to.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@lostmypassword
Nah I just find it funny that Soong-type androids are fine, but for some reason if you start with something living and augment until they're similar it's forbidden. I didn't have any plans to actually indulge that impulse, as you say.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@TurtleCat
Sorry, most people who ask about this generally insist in crowbaring it into the setting, despite it being so grossly opposed to the setting's fundamentals.

I do wonder if there's some room to work with the idea of someone being body-dead but with a living mind and copying the mind into a device. I don't know that we've *really* explored this aspect of Federation ethics. Does the benefit of saving their consciousness (and so a form of life) outweigh the issues of creating a cybernetic entity that may set a bad precedent? I feel like there is room there for a really good Trek episode with a strong exploration of morality, especially if there's a downside to be found somewhere.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

The Maquis on the other hand seems a lot more egalitarian, if only out of practicality. If you live on a planet outside the Federation's protection, you're also out from under its laws and being able to replicate this scene against the spoonheads is definitely a worthwhile talent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0cFLb-JmaQ

Firespawn
Firespawn

@Soft_member
Wasn't that the plot to the TNG episode with Data's "mother?" You know, Juliana Tainer? Granted, that episode was more about "Do you tell a machine they're a machine" than "do we save a dying mind by creating a cybernetic copy?"

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@TurtleCat
Artificial life is different from an in-universe standpoint because the Federation at tht time is only on the precipice of regularly creating artificial life, to the extent where they seem unconvinced that any mortal could create a sufficiently intelligent program until proven wrong. Data and Lore (and later B4) were oddities that nobody else could replicate, the EMH wasn't designed to be independently intelligent until circumstances forced Voyager's to be, same with the exocomps gaining sentience. The Federation has a blind spot where they assume that new life will be naturally occurring, primarily organic, and that machines are just machines and not intelligent beings.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Firespawn
Yeah, but that distinction changed the entire tenor of the episode. I am more interested in the act of creation and what that means for Federation theories and morals than what we do with one once we have it. The act of creation seems to be where the Federation's issues lie, not with what they do with the things once they exist.

@kizzmybutt
While an interesting point, that video doesn't really support your point, being from Into Darkness and having nothing to do with the Maquis. Did you miscopy your link?

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@PurpleCharger
The Federation has a blind spot where they assume that new life will be naturally occurring, primarily organic, and that machines are just machines and not intelligent beings.
I think it is more that the Federation doesn't seem to want to have the discussion about the ethics and responsibilities of creating life from nothingness. They were happy to have the occasional surprise but if people are gonna go around doing this on the regular, it will open up some areas of discussion that need to be had about the morals of said behavior and what rights said life forms have and all that jazz and frankly, this is a tough discussion to have in a small group, much less a Federation composed of possibly quadrillions of life forms. I kinda understand their concerns, it's a very human thing to try and kick the can down the road until you can't anymore, which is what they're doing. It's a reminder that the Feddies are still quite fallible which is refreshing to see.

TreeEater
TreeEater

Fantasy Trek guy from the last thread here, done up a quick list of rough equivalents for converting the trek species into a fantasy planet-base setting.

Alpharia

United Federation of Cities
Humans - Humans
Vulcans - Elves with little Maenad
Tellarties - Dwarves
Andorians - Frosty High Elves/Eldarin
-Aenar - Dromites
Betazoids/Deltans - Xeph
Benzites - Undine/Merfolk
Bolians - Tall blue gnomes.
Caitians - Catfolk
Saurians - Lizardfolk
Trill - Noral joined with Erliss

Bajorans - Halflings

Ferengi - Kobolds / WoW Goblins

Tzenkethi Coalition - D&D Troglodytes

Breen - Masked Gnolls

Cardassian Union - Lizardmen/Hobgoblins

Na'kuhl - Hobgoblins/Goblins

Betarix

The Romulan State Empire
Romulans - Dark Elves / Drow
Remans - Duergar

Klingon Empire
Klingons - Vikings / WoW Orcs
Gorn - Dragonborn
Nausicaans - Ogres/Trolls
Letheans - Ophiduan
Orions - Nymphs

Tholians - Shardmind

Kinshaya - Kenku/Griffins

Gammanon

The Dominion
Changelings - Changelings with a bit of Illithid
Jem'Hadar - Tiefling/Dragonborn with a bit of Githyanki
Vorta - Deva/Aasamir/ with a bit of Githzerai

Deltarus

Borg - Undead Horde ruled by a Lich Queen
8472- Extra planar entities
Kazon - Goblins
Talaxians - Ratfolk
Ocampa - Some Fae race?
Hirogen - Bugbears
Vidiians - Lepers
Voth - Lizardmen(Warhammer)

happy_sad
happy_sad

I've updated the OP in order to include the released material for STA and tweak some things to satisfy my own autism. Make sure to make use of it next time around.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

A thread for discussing the 'Star Trek' franchise and its various tabletop adaptations.

Possible topics include Modiphius' new rpg 'Star Trek Adventures', WizKids’ miniatures game 'Star Trek: Attack Wing', and Gale Force Nine's board game 'Star Trek: Ascendancy', as well as the previous rpgs produced by FASA, Last Unicorn Games and Decipher, the Starfleet Battles Universe, and the Star Trek universe in general.

Game Resources

Star Trek Adventures
-Official Modiphius Page (Rules, FAQ and Player Resources)
http://www.modiphius.com/star-trek.html
-PDF Collection
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/0w33ywljd1pdt/Star_Trek_Adventures

Older Licensed RPGs (FASA, Last Unicorn Games and Decipher)
http://pastebin.com/ndCz650p

Other (Unlicensed) RPGS (Far Trek + Lasers and Feelings)
http://pastebin.com/uzW5tPwS

Star Trek: Attack Wing
-Official WizKids Page (Rules, FAQ and Player Resources)
http://wizkids.com/attackwing/star-trek-attack-wing/

Star Trek: Ascendancy (Rules and Player Resources)
-Official Gale Force Nine Page
http://startrek.gf9games.com/

Lore Resources

Memory Alpha - Canon wiki
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:Main

Memory Beta - Noncanon wiki for licensed Star Trek works
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Fan Sites - Analysis of episodes, information on ships, technobabble and more
http://pastebin.com/mxLWAPXF

Star Trek Maps - Based on the Star Trek Star Charts, updated and corrected
http://www.startrekmap.com/index.html

/stg/ Homebrew Content
http://pastebin.com/H1FL1UyP

Emberfire
Emberfire

Anyone else have a favorite minor alien species that was never named?
Pic related.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@Emberfire
Honestly, not really. If they didn't get a name, I generally didn't notice them enough to give a shit about them. Maybe I'm just lame like that though.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Firespawn
There was also when Dr. Ira Graves transferred his mind into Data. In that case it was wrong because of the theft of Data's body/life. So again they didn't really address the morality of mind uploading in general.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@happy_sad
The rulebook is already gone. Nice try, user.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Lunatick
Dunno, I just really dig their species look, uniforms and their ship was neat too.
(Even though it was a modified version of an earlier).

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Evil_kitten
Also, the members of the race we saw were all space miners, with their faces looking somewhat rock-like, it's a neat correlation.

likme
likme

@TreeEater
Why change them into standard fantasy races? Why not just have the Star Trek races in a fantasy world?

Playboyize
Playboyize

Fennim's species looks pretty neat too.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Playboyize
happy arbor day

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@likme
Not changing them into fantasy races, list is more for the aesthetic / cultural analogies of what each race's fantasy-era thematic vibe I'd aim towards.
Andorians donning the same civilization aesthetic and armor style as arrogant high elves albeit a little more frosty themed for example.

Probably the only real replacement would be the Borg into undead.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Emberfire
Anyone else have a favorite minor alien species that was never named?
I liked the guys from Voyager who were constantly checking with "the hierarchy" before deciding anything. Apparently the script referred to them as "Overlookers", but they were never named on screen.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@Illusionz
I do like the overlookers, they remind me a lot of Sontarons.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Illusionz
You can make them in STO. I have one in the KDF

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Gigastrength
Maybe I'll have a try at making Nocona's race in STO later.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Booteefool
At the end of the episode they kept his mind in the computers memory banks. And as you said uploading your mind into digital form wasn't the issue there , it was how he did it. The whole episode would have been solved if Graves had just asked the crew to help him with the mind transfer bit.

It seems there is shaky line what you can do. Upload your memory to computer system or robot you build just for that pursose, seems to be grudginly accepted. Augmenting allready excisting physical body there we hit a line which seems to hang on the setience and self-awereness of the person or thing you are messing with.

takes2long
takes2long

@Illusionz
I nearly couldn't watch that EMH daydreaming episode, it's literally my worst nightmare.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@PurpleCharger
Which, when you think about it, makes sense if you take into account the Federation's view of the Borg as horrific. Still, what with STD's multiple augmented characters (from the very little I've seen/gathered) we may very well see such drama unfold.

Oh wait, that would mean STD would have to follow canon and actually be a decent Star Trek show.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@happy_sad
Is it a bad sign that I see and hear Chang's torpedo buzzing up into her saucer when I look at this image?

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Burnblaze
That's about the only time we see a classic Excelsior in action though.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Evil_kitten
We do see them in action again in DS9, in the Emissary, an Excelsior is one of the ships that the Borg are allready attacking when Saratoga is making it's attack. And then they are used Maqui hunting and finally we see Excelsiors being part of the fleets in Dominion War.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@AwesomeTucker
I was assuming they'd all be of the refit variety, looks like I was wrong. I never noticed the Excelsiors doing much in the war shots, but those sequences have so much going on I'm not surprised I missed them. That said, I can't find an episode where they're being used to hunt Marquis, though I certainly could have missed it.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Sharpcharm
The USS Malinche was an Excelscior class, sent to assist the Defiant in capturing Micheal Eddington (For the Uniform).
The Maquis lured the Malinche into a trap using the distress call from a Cardassian freighter.

RavySnake
RavySnake

DS9, The Visitor

Fuck, wasn't expecting to get hit this hard.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@RavySnake
Would you believe it got snubbed for a Hugo.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@Garbage Can Lid
Babylon 5 got it instead, which was very well deserved.

eGremlin
eGremlin

If a Starfleet captain breaks the prime directive by giving primitive aliens a cure for their equivalent of the black plague, does the Federation have to undo the "damage" of this crime by killing the same number of people as the plague would've killed? That is the only effective deterrent, since there are people who would gladly face any punishment if it meant saving millions of lives.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Stark_Naked
Sitting around being disabled isn't exactly what I had in mind when I said 'in action'....

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@eGremlin
I don't think there's any clearly established deterrent, beyond punishing the captain/crew responsible.
And I suspect that the idea exists that more interference is not the solution. The damage is already done and any attempt to fix it by meddling more is only likely to make things worse.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@eGremlin
Or, you know, you could relieve them of command and then they won't be doing that again. Because, you know, you removed their ability to do so. Becoming a captain is hard work and you risk losing the ability to save lives many times over just to do so in this one instance. Also, I'd like to think that Starfleet is effective at preventing people who are going to go around breaking the prime directive from becoming captains in the first place.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@eGremlin
Starfleet is stupid, not maniacly evil.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@eGremlin

In the 2290s they set codified a new punishment.
Captains get dishonourably discharged and put in a penal colony.
Crew gets reassigned onto a Crossfield class without chance for promotion or reassignment.

There were no problems for over 70 years.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

btw, dilithium weekend is around.
Thought id come around to let you guys know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULeDlxa3gyc

whereismyname
whereismyname

@AwesomeTucker
Crossfield class

Not heard of this one, isn't it usually an Oberth for that kind of thing?

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@whereismyname
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Crossfield_class

You get reassigned to work with Captain Warcrime.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@whereismyname
@VisualMaster

Also, you're quarters are in the spinning part of the saucer.
The spinning never stops.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@eGremlin
Going by the precedent of "Homeward", probably not. While Nikolai Rozhenko was chewed out by Picard for saving the Boraalans, no one ever raised, let alone seriously considered, the possibility of just dumping the surviving Boraalans into space or beaming them back to their now-uninhabitable world or something.

In your particular case, certainly something that Starfleet would do is try and remove any traces that the captain had been involved. Like, if he just dispersed the cure into the atmosphere with no one on the planet the wiser, then Starfleet would appreciate that.

If he showed up and presented himself as The Great Healer, well, that would have to be dealt with somehow.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@eGremlin
Don't be stupid. The Federation isn't some kind of True Neutral "everything must be balanced" robot, moron. They would not condone murdering people because they saved some other ones. That you even asked this shows how little you understand the Federation or its principles.

Fuck you, your bait got me, I'm angry that you are so stupid. Argh.

Bidwell
Bidwell

@cum2soon
74992
PIZZA in phone-keypad

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Spamalot
The USS Hood is an Excelsior Class keeping up with the Defiant and kicking serious ass in the Battle of Chin'toka.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@VisualMaster
Wait, discovery is set in 2256? I thought all the promotional material said 20 years before Kirk? Shouldnt it be 2246?

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@PackManBrainlure
Nope, 10 years.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

So what do you think is Discovery has in store for captain Lucius Malfoy ?

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@ZeroReborn
Hopefully death and replacement with a real captain.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@ZeroReborn
@Need_TLC
Burnham is going to rat him out to Starfleet Command for using the torture drive. Salu / "muh ganglia" becomes Captain and Burnham goes back to being XO.

takes2long
takes2long

@ZeroReborn
Revealed as head of Section 31, then faking his death.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@takes2long
It turns out that him faking his death was in fact faked as well and he is actually dead.

But he was an Augment all along and he was merely pretending to be faking the fake death and he is actually alive and plotting his revenge.

Burnham never finds out about any of this and, in an unrelated incident, mutinies again in order to shoot Lorca's supposed killers. She gets away with this one too, because reasons.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@ZeroReborn
He'll order the ship to make a sporp jump too close to a blackhole, inadvertently sending the ship 600 years forward in time, where they're captured by the uber-tardigrades. The show ends with Mr. Bitchy Engineer being plugged into a warp drive to see how he likes it while everybody else is sent back to their time.
Lorca reveals he's a Section 31 spook and convinces Burnham and Tilly to join him, so long as they get to keep Saru as a housepet.
The Discovery itself is destroyed by Starfleet and everyone collectively agrees to never mention the time that they helped create a BDSM-drive.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@ZeroReborn
He introduces the Temporal Cold War to the series and doesn't ever fucking stop talking about it.

Evilember
Evilember

@Illusionz
You beast.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@VisualMaster
sporp jump
DON'T GIVE THEM IDEAS

Skullbone
Skullbone

@VisualMaster
sporp jump
The term is "trip" not "jump". We're dealing with the shroom drive after all.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Skullbone
Is the activation at least heralded by setting the ship's speakers to blast Magic Carpet Ride?

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Fried_Sushi
Why not call it Transhroom warp?

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@RavySnake
Meanwhile, the Klingons were making more angry noises

5mileys
5mileys

Does anyone have any clear shots of the STD klingon ships? Not just the big one.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

So, if you wanted to set a trek game within it's own little bubble away from the galaxy at large... how long would an expedition take to reach for example. The large metallic cloud, a dwarf galaxy orbiting the milky way.

Lets say they have the option of using a slipstream drive to get there.

Other ideas involve the Federation's first attempt at creating a dyson sphere/swarm around an insignificant dwarf star. Though the power output alone could change the balance of the quadrant as it might allow the Federation to replicate whole ships, or maybe even, delithium crystals (hypothesising that they are impossible/hard to replicate due to the energy requirements of creating them)

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@eGremlin

Starfleet captains have the authority to break the Prime Directive if they feel they can justify it. That said, I'd say this example is probably not a good one since it doesn't give us enough information.

But to answer the question, no, Starfleet and the Federation would not kill anyone. Depending on how the violation occurred, there would be as little as a note in the captain's record to being removed from command and possibly railroaded out of the service.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@Spazyfool
how long would an expedition take to reach for example. The large metallic cloud
That's 157,000 lightyears away. More than twice the distance Voyager had to cross.

Lets say they have the option of using a slipstream drive to get there.
I think that would be a good idea.

Voyager's early quantum slipstream drive copied off the Dauntless was giving them 1 hour = 300 lightyears. So 21 days if they didn't stop.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@eGremlin
@Need_TLC
I feel like it's similar to how grounding a vessel is seen in modern navies - even if it wasn't you directly (or even if you can't be pinned to it all), it's pretty much the end of your command barring exceptional circumstances. Usually not a career-ender, if it was relatively minor, but certainly enough to keep you off the bridge of a vessel for the remainder of your time in Starfleet.

Inmate
Inmate

@TurtleCat

I don't think it's ever been shown to work that way. Kirk violated it all the time, and Picard had it on record that he'd violated it nine times in by mid-TNG. Violating the PD is within the accepted power of the captain's chair, but there has to be some justification when it happens.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Spazyfool
Quantum slipstream took Voyager nearly 10,000 light-years (assuming 1,000 ly per year) in under a minute. The LMC is ~163k ly from the Milky Way, so if you go by the speeds shown in Timeless then you're looking at maybe 10 minutes tops.

Now what you could do is say that Starfleet was never able to stabilize the slipstream, but they were able to determine that a ship could stay in for a 15 second burst safely, with 20 seconds being doable in an emergency. So instead of doing one single uninterrupted run to the LMC, the ship (or ships) do a series of 15 second bursts, with the drive needing to recharge for 4-6 hours before being able to try again. So the trip takes a few weeks to a month by jumping every 4-6 hours.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@happy_sad
Was there actually a given travel time in that one? All I've ever seen for concrete information was the 300ly in 1 hour.

takes2long
takes2long

@happy_sad
@Carnalpleasure
Perhaps we can have a modified "safer" but slower version of the slipstream drive that takes about 10 years to get to the LMC?
Which would mean it's a significant undertaking to get there, but within the context of the universe, not dramatically taking it outside the timeline.

I kind of feel help being a few hours away would diminish the undertaking of such a massive mission, would be kind of cool if they stuck a warp/slipstream drive on a whole starbase to be the hub of the mission.

Unfortunately its starting to sound like ME:A, but i'm sure we can put together a better game than Bioware Montreal.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Orville really is a little ship.
Also I noticed that different ships have a different TLA, the Orville being an ECV, the Olympia being an LCV. Which is neat.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Lord_Tryzalot
So if we assume that the Olympia is a standard Admiral's vessel, like an Excelsior, what would the Orville be the equivalent of? An Intrepid?

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Gigastrength
Constellation.

For something more matching of the Excelsior in age.

massdebater
massdebater

Sisko > Kirk = Picard > Archer > shit > Janeway
My justification for Sisko is that he was a shit officer given a shit command, but the command became the most important in the quadrant and he rose to the occasion.

massdebater
massdebater

@takes2long
would be kind of cool if they stuck a warp/slipstream drive on a whole starbase to be the hub of the mission.
That's literally what the Galaxy class was designed to do. Stick a QSD on there for travel to the Cloud and stick some Delta Flyer runabouts in the main shuttlebay so the PCs can do away missions in one.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@happy_sad
This is pretty much the premise of a TOS book I read once.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/The_Wounded_Sky

@Gigastrength
@Methnerd

I'd stick to Orville as Intrepid but consider the big ship to be a Galaxy. Of course, we don't really know what the big ship is. Is it one of the famed heavy cruisers that was mentioned? And what do ECV and LCV stand for? (Surely these ships are not carriers.....)

DeathDog
DeathDog

@DeathDog
LCV = Large Comfy Vehicle
ECV = Extremely Crappy Vehicle

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@DeathDog
Could stand for a specific class/production period. Something similar to the NX and NV designations of pre-Fed Starfleet.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Nojokur
There's no way in hell it's 300 ly over 1 hour because a) the flight itself only lasts a few seconds, b) at the end of the episode it's said they cut down the travel time by almost 10 years. At the beginning of the series it's said to be 75 years for a 70,000 ly journey that required them to curve around the galactic core, so I'm spitballing 10,000 ly for 10 years in a straight line.

I have no idea what soft canon says, but if it's 300ly/hr then they're straight-up wrong.

farquit
farquit

@Need_TLC
The 300ly per hour is the given speed in the one where they discovered the quantum slipstream drive rather than the yet another time travel episode that retcons itself one. Because that's how far they travel in 1 hour using it.

@DeathDog
I'm guessing Exploratory Cruiser Vessel for Orville. I have no idea if that's the unknown but mentioned heavy cruiser it's with or something bigger. I'm sure there'll be clarification at some point though, this show has a clearly large amount of world building put into it that's already shining through.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@Nojokur
As mentioned, the slipstream experiment cut down 10 years from their journey. 10k ly is an acceptable approximate, although it was likely shorter than that. Let's assume it's ten years going by the same 70k ly/75 yr estimate; that would be 9.3k ly over 10 years. Since Janeway said "almost", I'm gonna round down to 9k.

In the episode, Kim says that the variances start at about 17 seconds of using slipstream. In the rip of the episode I have, this starts at timestamp 32:08. That scene lasts until 33:31, so a minute and 23 seconds for a total of a minute and 40 seconds from start of slipstream. The first attempt to send the fix via Seven fails. The second attempt starts at 40:19 with Voyager falling out of slipstream at 40:49, so an extra 30 seconds. That's 2 minutes 10 seconds spent at slipstream.

The LMC is approximately 163k ly away, so that would be a total travel time of 39 minutes at 15 seconds if they were able to stabilize it for a continuous journey. If they were to do the 15 second jump idea, 15 seconds would take them 157 jumps to cover the distance. Give them 4 jumps per day and they're there in around 40 days.

@farquit
While true, that was the slipstream designed by the alien race placed on an alien ship that was disguised as a Starfleet ship. When they got the drive working on Voyager, it was considerably faster.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@Need_TLC
300 light years in an hour is from the episode 'Hope and Fear'.

@Carnalpleasure
When they got the drive working on Voyager
I wouldn't exactly say they got it 'working'..... In fact, the idea that they could get it working is part of the problem with doing more post-Nemesis stories.

@farquit
I hope the Orville lasts long enough for us to see that world in its entirety.

massdebater
massdebater

@Gigastrength
Nova class with better accommodations and rec facilities.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@massdebater
So an Intrepid

Methshot
Methshot

@Burnblaze
In fact, the idea that they could get it working is part of the problem with doing more post-Nemesis stories.

Yeah that's a big one. When everything in the galaxy takes less time to get to than it takes me to walk to the local corner shop, that's really gonna fuck everything dramatic about having to go and be places. Unless suddenly everyone is hopping between galaxies because that's the only way to space things out a bit. But that doesn't really add anything and takes away a lot from the established setting. Kinda like the Borg's transwarp conduit hub and all the bullshit that implied. But worse. Way worse. Because some idiots on a middling stranded starship with basically no support managed to make it go Futurama-speeds for a bit.

Voyager really did a lot to fuck the setting for anyone trying to use it in the future didn't it. sure, Star Trek has always weird exceptions for stuff like speed (TOS doing crap all the time with it but that at least had the excuse of being before shit was nailed down) but TNG and DS9 managed to at least try and keep things vaguely consistent. And then came Voyager with it's plentiful piles of time bullshit, hologram everything bullshit and speed bullshit all thrown in.

takes2long
takes2long

@Methshot
They get out somewhere and lose their QSD because plot? It's like that scene in a time to stand.

"The core matrix is fried. We don't have warp drive."
"Forgive my ignorance, but if we don't have warp drive, how long is it going to take us to reach the closest Federation starbase?"
"A long time, Mr. Garak."
"How long?"
"Seventeen years, two months and three days, give or take an hour."

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Soft_member
For what purpose

Emberburn
Emberburn

@w8t4u
They had to do something dumb and autistic to offset the warhammer 40k grimdark retardation of torturing a gigantic sentient space tardigrade to act as an Astropath and make their mushroom jump drive work. I REALLY WISH I WAS MAKING THIS UP.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Emberburn
Everything I've heard about STD makes it sound like a bad mashup of 40K and late-stage Mass Effect.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@Emberburn
I REALLY WISH I WAS MAKING THIS UP.

Trust me, user, we all wish you were making it up too.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@PurpleCharger
...That's actually a fairly apt description.

Skullbone
Skullbone

A thought just occurred to me:

Since Sisko was pretty much preordained to become the Emissary, did the Prophets/Wormhole Aliens have a part in the Battle of Wolf 359?

Presumably, Sisko would not have been assigned to DS9 if Jennifer had lived. And perhaps more relevant, there was a good chance of Sisko dying during the battle itself. So I wondered if the Prophets potentially had a hand in the events there?

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Skullbone
Yes and no. See, the Prophets seem to behave linearly despite not understanding it. So until Sisko met the Wormhole Aliens and they started poking around his recent past (and later on, his birth), Sisko survived by random chance. Once they got involved, he always may have survived due to their intervention. This is all headcanon, but it fits with the way they act.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@Illusionz
That would be awesome irony if the Prophets were actually responsible for Jennifer's death. Sisko spent all his time blaming Picard, but if it was really the Prophets, that would be some mindfuck twist there.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Skullbone
@Illusionz
The prophets work in mysterious ways. Violating temporal laws whenever its convenient.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Akorem_Laan

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Illusionz
The Prophets understand linear time, they pretended not to because the explanation of linear time was necessary for Sisko to overcome his grief.

The Prophets' existence as non-linear entities means they don't actually change the timeline as what we would understand it like in Past Tense or Endgame. Everything is a stable loop.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Gigastrength
The Intrepid was originally designed as a heavy cruiser. Tactical capability took priority over scientific capability. It's only because Voyager was in the ass end of the galaxy that they added on better scientific facilities.

The Orville is more like a frigate, geared towards science, which I think is more in line with the Nova.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@cum2soon
That depends on whether you accept the Millennium Trilogy as being at all relevant (which no one does for the most part, but I love the Red Prophet empowered Weyoun and totally Pah-Wraith infected Gul Dukat). If so, the Prophets directly fucked with the timeline to save the universe.

Can I get a Koss Amojan?

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Burnblaze
novels
Who seriously gives a fuck, they're as valid as FF.net shit.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

krill have better makeup and costume design than STD klingons

Illusionz
Illusionz

@BunnyJinx
If the Intrepid is a heavy cruiser, then what the fuck is the Akira? Excelsior? Sovereign? Galaxy?

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@PackManBrainlure
Some of this shit is pure genius and I love the contrast with Spock's sedate, no-nonsense nerve pinch.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Garbage Can Lid
This episode was nominated for an Emmy Award for Outstanding Makeup for a Series. The award was won by VOY: "Threshold".

THRESHOLD

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Illusionz
@BunnyJinx

Intrepid is definitely not a heavy cruiser, it's a light cruiser and if you want to throw on some additional definitions; New (it's a radical change over older light cruisers in the style of the Galaxy's wide oval saucer, fat nacelles and so on), Fast (huge speed increase over older models), and probably Survey could be thrown in too. In terms of armament it's not really got that much, just a fairly normal complement of phaser strips and torpedo tubes that don't even pump out half as much as a Galaxy can for a full spread. But in role, it's mission initially was explicitly light cruiser duties; going into the badlands (needing manoeuvrability not found in heavier cruisers) to chase down a raider that's a destroyer equivalent.

It being tough and fighty is just Federation tech being stupidly good rather than explicit design choices. When the feds make a fighty cruiser, then it comes out like the Excelsior (definitely a battlecruiser in its heyday with something like twice the armament of the Constitution refit) or the Akira.

@Booteefool
The makeup was pretty good in that one with Paris going all weird and lumpy/flaky, with a lot of sequential changes. Can't fault them for that.

takes2long
takes2long

@Illusionz
Light Curiser then
Akira - Heavy Cruiser
Excelsior/Soverign - battleship
Galaxy - I want to say battleship but it certainly wasn't designed for patrol duties in mind. Its more like they took a cargo vessel, refurbished it for expedition and then wacked some TOW missiles and .50cal guns on the side.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@RumChicken
I don't think you're being completely fair with your tactical assessment of the Intepid. Voyager had to be pretty conservative with it's armament, especially with it's torpedoes as they didn't have fabrication facilities for them. At some point they added these facilities but I don't recall them mentioning it on the show. I do remember them mentioning the total torpedo count for the first few seasons however.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@RumChicken
Yeah, the Intrepid being so good in the Delta Quadrant is more a function of the technological backwardness of most of the species there than anything special to do with the ship itself. If it were in the Dominion war I doubt it would have been any more successful than any other Starfleet design.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

Is anyone else finding the moral judgement of the crew of the Orville incredibly questionable?

In episode 3 the entire crew of the ship unanimously agreed that aliens should have to make medical decisions for their children according to human biological norms and now in episode 6 there isn't even a discussion about the morality of horribly murdering the entire crew of a battlecruiser, it's just a given that it's totally okay to do that, but while committing mass murder it's super important not to kill the tiny quantity of children on board as if that somehow makes it better?

I keep getting the impression that either these characters are kind of mentally retarded.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Deadlyinx
You're right. They should have contacted the colony and told them to be ready to surrender the moment the Krill showed up.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@Deadlyinx
Episode 3 seemed to be a discussion rather than anything. They may have come down on one side a bit more than the other because Fox is a conservative network.

In episode 6... The Krill they killed were about to commit what we would consider a war crime, killing 100K civilians with a radiation bomb. They were also combatants. The delineation the crew of the Orville make is the difference between Combatant and Civilian.

... are you sure it's not you that has a questionable moral code?

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Stark_Naked
Also better motivation, nuance, depth, ability to emote, and better actors.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

@takes2long
The Excelsior is certainly not a battleship. It was designed in a time period when the Federation was not primarily military-minded. It's a ship capable of battle, nothing more.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@Carnalpleasure
Well then it's a cargo ship with the interior gutted for expedition labs with some TOW missiles and .50cals slapped on the side.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Stark_Naked
Fair enough. Just remember: Starfleet fulfills a military role when necessary, but it is not military.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Booteefool
Wasn't there also that whole episode of DS9 where Bareil got parts of his grey matter replaced with machine? Or am I misremembering that? I just recall Bashir saying something along the lines of "at some point, Bareil wouldn't be himself anymore if he kept getting things replaced."

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Spamalot
They were trying to save his life, and he died at the end of the episode.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@MPmaster
I know, but post Roddenberry they have been getting more and more militerised.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Skullbone
Right, that's why I brought it up. It's another instance of when we got to see the Federation have to deal with questionable augmentation. Though I don't think anyone on DS9 was ever really against anything Bashir did to try and save the Vedek's life.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Crazy_Nice
I think the distinction has always been if they're trying to save someones life vs providing augmentation. They weren't trying to take a healthy person and make him better, they were trying to save his life, and when it comes to saving someones life we see few, if any, restrictions so long as it doesn't involve harming another person. When Neelix died in Voyager they let Seven put Borg nanites into him to revive him. But if they had proposed to do so for any other reason it would not have flown at all.

That said, the Binars kind of break the rule in a way. I mean, yeah, they're dependent on their planetary computer to survive now, but there really wasn't any moralizing about what they'd done to themselves to get to that point.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Crazy_Nice
The Federations policy on augmentation is sketchy. There only seems to be an issue with antenatal genetic modification and excessive prenatal genetic modification. Which is weird.

Khan and the ubermensch seemed to be prenatal augments and the result of eugenics. I can see why that's completely banned, but the procedure Bashir went under is theoretically available to everyone and has excellent outcomes when done correctly.

Cybernetic augmentation is never really covered, aside from the possibility that maybe its just crap (Alas, poor captain Pike) and biological regeneration had better outcomes for the Federation. I suppose the Borg do kind of cover it, but no where is it said cybernetics themselves are illegal.

I think the issue is the writers didn't have a clear understanding of genetic modification and the different types that would be theoretically available. I mean, Bashir's antenatal genetic modification is practically impossible anyway.

likme
likme

@BunnyJinx
The Intrepid was originally designed as a heavy cruiser. Tactical capability took priority over scientific capability. It's only because Voyager was in the ass end of the galaxy that they added on better scientific facilities.
Where do you get that from? Memory Alpha says Intrepids were designed for long-term exploration missions.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@Soft_member
DS9 had cybernetic dataports in a couple episodes. Odo explicitly says that they aren't illegal, but that he thinks they should be. Not because he has a fundamental objection to cybernetic enhancement. It's just that they tend to be used for hacking.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@likme
I don't care what Memory Alpha says in its summary rundown, much of its scientific facilities were expanded after it was transported to the DQ. Hydroponics was a Nelix/Crazy Cat lady initiative, Astrometrics was 7 of 9's pet project.

In the first draft script of VOY: "Caretaker" (dated 8 June 1994), the Intrepid-class was referred to as "a sleek bullet of a ship, built for action, capable of holding a crew compliment of one hundred and twenty-five."

I take from this that tactical role in the fleet was the first priority in it's design.

And sure, they had some basic labs, but I'd conjecture that those would have been a congressional thing. Starfleet wants a quick ship with a bit of dakka for interdiction, but they couldn't get approval with out tacking on some basic science facilities, at least pre-Dominion.

massdebater
massdebater

@AwesomeTucker
It further goes to show how alienated Rick Berman era Star Trek was from the reality of technology.

I've seen enough Defcon talks to know you can't stop Hackerman from busting your shit up if he really wants too.

In the grim dark of the 24th century everything has networked computer integration and Hackerman is god.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Spazyfool
It would have been nice to see voyager change as the series progressed. Turning from a sleek bullet fresh faced ship on it's maiden voyage to a grizzled veteran, hard and scarred.

Evilember
Evilember

@Playboyize
I know, they kinda squandered that.

We kinda saw it in Battle Star Galactica though, but I think it kinda crawled up its own ass a bit.

But something like 50% what year of hell was over the course of the series would have been rad.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Spazyfool
Memory Alpha takes its info from what's actually said in the show. Specifically this quote:

Voyager's an Intrepid class starship with a crew of one hundred and forty six, designed for long-term exploration.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@massdebater
t. cylons

takes2long
takes2long

@eGremlin

The Prime Directive was Rodenberry's ignorant expression of cultural relativism. Cultural Relativism argues women should be oppressed or gays thrown off rooftops because you can't judge another culture. like Bill Maher says, its complete bullshit
but i'm sure some nerd will try and argue otherwise

RavySnake
RavySnake

@takes2long
I'll be that nerd

In it being an allegory for US foreign policy, yeah, you're not wrong. But there are some instances where its reasonable within the axioms of the show.

Even if they had a moral code that would satisfy you, if you introduce replicators you devastate their agriculture industry. You probably would also make them dependent on you for power generation as I think replicators require the same amount of power than a coal or nuclear power plant produces at peak.

Then there is a selfish angle. I don't want SJWs to enforce their "morality" on to me, so in order to reduce my hypocrisy I can't exactly advocate playing nanny to a quarter of the galaxy unless it involves ethnic or political cleansing or they position themselves as existential adversaries to my continued existance.

FastChef
FastChef

The main problem with Star Trek Discovery is that it's too tightly focused on one character and one story. With other Star Treks, like TNG, if you didn't like a character or a particular story, you still knew the next episode or next next episode would be something different and maybe something you'd enjoy. If you tuned in and it was a holodeck episode and you didn't like holodeck episodes (most people didn't), it sucked, but the next episode probably wasn't going to be a holodeck episode. If it was a Wesley episode and you and you didn't like Wesley (again, most people didn't), again, too bad, but next time was going to be someone else. With Discovery, if you don't like Michael as a character and this Klingon storyline, you're shit out of luck.

That said, I like Discovery.

massdebater
massdebater

@PurpleCharger
and late-stage Mass Effect
I like this implied parallel between ME and cancer.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@Booteefool
VOY did deserve an Emmy for makeup for Threshold to be perfectly honest. SFX-wise it was an amazing episode.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@LuckyDusty
Post-Roddenberry has been demilitarizing them, in TOS Starfleet was a straight-up space navy.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Soft_member
I mean, Bashir's antenatal genetic modification is practically impossible anyway.
A designer virus, biochemical therapy, and extensive microsurgery could probably result in a Bashir.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@takes2long
It seems more to me like idiotic Vulcan-influenced cultural relativism combined with humans being deeply antipathetic to anything resembling the colonialism which fucked the hell outta Earth countries.
but roads and hospitals
Western colonialism introduced the means for previously impossible levels of war and despotism without the cultural advancements necessary to cause the natives to refrain from this when left alone. We should have been in those for far longer or not at all.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Fried_Sushi
*in those countries

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@RavySnake
@Fried_Sushi

Moral relativism.

hairygrape
hairygrape

@Sir_Gallonhead
Not wanting to be the universe's nanny combined with a moral philosophy which inequates a refusal to interfere with evil as a perpetration of said evil (they wouldn't pull the trolley lever).

SniperGod
SniperGod

@Sir_Gallonhead
Moral realism isn't necessary for a non-interference policy to make sense. You can believe another culture's practices are wrong and still recognize that attempting to force them to change is likely to just make things worst.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@SniperGod
You mean moral relativism. Moral realism requires you interfere unless the real morals you believe in tell you not to.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

@SniperGod
*relativism

Isn't it lovely when autocorrect reverses the meaning of what you were trying to say?

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Evilember
It wouldn't even need to be "damage porn" either. Just some indication that things are progressing. Perhaps some episode after the only 36(?) torpedoes left line is uttered they could say something on the lines of "well, that was the last of them" or something similar.

Or at the end of the "get the cheese to sickbay" episode and they realize that the bio-neural gel packs are going to run out long before they get back home for replacements they could have a discussion about it that lasts for more than a few lines. They then have to dumb down the computer to run on simpler shit that they can replicate replacement parts for with the gel-packs being reserved for running the EMH. The Doctor having is then noted to have an estimated lifespan of ~60 years. They mention that he's still going to die before they get home and then remark that they will have to deal with that problem when they have to deal with it. Then they send the brightest of the redshirts to be his student because on doctor with a shelf life shorter than the mission is not ideal.

But then again they were meant to be conserving resources for the long voyage home. And each crewman has living quarters the size of a large apartment. If ~1/2 of the crew was killed upon arrival they would have ~60 crew. That's half the rooms empty right there. Partition the obscenely large quarters and you got the crew quarters down to 1/4 the original size. several decks can now be abandoned from common usage and refer to them as the Grey Decks. Switch off life support and use them to store tinned food and spare parts and anything else that doesn't need to breathe.

In a similar manner to the gel-packs the replicators are not 1 per room due to the parts being too complex to replicate. They are needed to make medical supplies and engine parts. The only food replicator left is in the mess hall but it's been dumbed down to make bland food cubes because it puts less strain on it, giving Neelix a reason to be ships cook

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Firespawn
It seemed more Space air-force.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@Skullbone
Roddenberry was ex-Air Force, so it checks out.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@w8t4u
I'd definitely watch that.

@FastChef
The main problem with Star Trek Discovery is that it's too tightly focused on one character and one story.
I'd argue that the main problem with Star Trek Discovery is that it isn't Star Trek, but Fringe in Space. And I'm tired of many elements of that. Also, I signed up for Star Trek.

STD isn't terrible so far, but neither is it terrific, and it's not the *kind* of thing I was hoping it would be.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@w8t4u
I allways assumed that what is said in the first episodes was the worst case scenario of the situation they got themselves into, because they have no knowledge of their surrounding space, outside what Neelix knows about it.

Also I assume that in their travel they actually meet friendly alien races that they trade with, probably raw materials or special equipment and tadaa they can restock their torpedoes again, it's not shows onscreen because that would make really boring episode. It's just that the writers forgot how autistically nitpickky some of their viewers are, these are the people that think that anything not shown onscreen doesn't happen and not realising that anything show of the screen are the cool parts of the Voyagers journey.

Thats why you still have those videos counting every god damn torpedo launched in VOY

SniperGod
SniperGod

@happy_sad
STD isn't terrible so far
Every living character being unsympathetic is an enormous problem.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Playboyize
Thats why you still have those videos counting every god damn torpedo launched in VOY
This one is kinda justified, they don't have the capability to manufacture their own torps and other races being able to manufacture Fed tech would be a huge deal.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@happy_sad
I'd argue that the main problem with Star Trek Discovery is that it isn't Star Trek
I think stuff like DS9 shows that Star Trek doesn't always have to be Star Trek in order to be Star Trek. Yes, I remember people endlessly saying DS9 wasn't Star Trek, that it was a Babylon 5 rip-off, and I see them trying to pull the same thing with Discovery and I just shrug because, at the end of the day, DS9 was great and Discovery is shaping up to be that way, too.

Firespawn
Firespawn

@FastChef
One of the big reasons Star Trek was episodic was because of how the episodes were played out of order. Even the original airing of episodes would sometimes be out of order. However, the way people view shows has changed. Nowadays, binge viewing is a big thing. When people watch all the episodes in a row at their leisure, it makes less sense to do the episodic structure. The show is also playing on CBS All Access / Netflix (outside the US), where again, episodes being aired out of order isn't an issue.

That's not to say that they shouldn't have gone with the episodic storytelling, and I feel like you've made a good case for why they should have. I'm just saying that, without it being a necessity, it does make sense that they'd try something new and different this time around. People watch these shows like they're one big movie, so it makes sense to do a single storyline following one character.

TechHater
TechHater

@Sir_Gallonhead
Discovery is shaping up to be that way, too.
Maybe. They have to thread some needles very delicately to do so. And DS9 had the advantage of having several seasons to develop before things got dark. I can't say I know anything about how the show was received as I was too young and our household didn't get internet until Voyager's last season.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Sir_Gallonhead
Babylon 5
Babylon 5 is more Star Trek than Discovery is.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@BlogWobbles
I did mention raw materials and specialised equipment. And meeting space faring races that can build the equipment really wasn't big issue in Voyager, we only saw the ones that where downright hostile or douchy some other way.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@Playboyize
it's not shows onscreen because that would make really boring episode

Yes because an entertaining episode about the shenanigans of barter and trade is impossible. Except it totally is possible.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Treachery,_Faith_and_the_Great_River_(episode)

Lunatick
Lunatick

@TechHater
The problem with DS9 was that it was allways playing the second fiddle when it came to Star Trek, the first 3 seasons it was overshadowed by TNG and last three it was Voyager being THE Star Trek series, which incidently was what gave DS9 the freedom to become what it became as the executives where busy with Voyager so the meddling stayed rather lowkey and seemed to be mostly about appearence of the female crew and their bustsizes.

What separates STD from DS9 is that the writers of DS9 where really big Star Trek fanboys that grew up watching TOS and worked on TNG so they would have good inclination what makes the show truly Star Trek. STD writers I don't get the same fibe as a fans of series, they are just writing a scifi series for CBS that happens to have Star Trek in it's name, hence the much darker themes and basically everybody seems to be a huge douchebags with no morality attached to them.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@TalkBomber
It's also Deep Space 9 episodes B-plot and to be honest the writing team Deep Space 9 was in different level than Voaygers one ever was. You can only look at their takes on the celebrating the 30th anniversary of TOS to see how much better the DS9 crew in general was compared to the Voyager one.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@Lunatick
Also doesn't help with the way that STD writers are treating the fans with the criticism.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Sir_Gallonhead
I remember people endlessly saying DS9 wasn't Star Trek, that it was a Babylon 5 rip-off

I remember that all too well. It's crazy though because whilst it's practically true (DS9 devs at their launch party apparently called up and thanked JMS for making DS9 possible), as @happy_sad
implied, B5 can be very Star Trek at times, carrying on a lot of the core themes in its own way, and not just that it's a space sci-fi series of the same era.

@Lunatick
A lot of DS9's thing comes down to Ira Steven Behr going full mother-bear rage mode at Rick Berman so they could get their way and try things. And even then, that wasn't fully enough. The amount of continuous story arc stuff in DS9 compared to just maintaining a continuity of events is pretty minimal. Like Odo remaining solid for less than half a season. The half dozen episode arc of the loss to the retaking of DS9 was a huge battle to get made in the first place and so on. Voyager didn't have that because Brannon Braga isn't the kind of person capable of going full sustained rage mode to defend his story-baby in the same way, yet he did pitch a lot of ideas that would have made Voyager more like the series we wanted it to be (he's still a shitty writer without a suitable partner) like Year of Hell actually being a whole year.

When it comes to STD though I'll put my thoughts on it in the form of a leading question:
If it didn't have Star Trek branded on it, would we still be discussing it here?
B5 comes up every now and again because it makes an interesting comparison/contrast. Orville comes up because it's Star Trek by another name. Stargate doesn't. Battlestar Galactica doesn't. Other fairly suitable candidates like Andromeda and SeaQuest: DSV (There's some surprising friendly crossover stuff with that and TNG back in the day, sneaky references and the like on screens and such) don't come up but a lot of that is due to being kinda forgettable outside of interesting their production fuckery.

massdebater
massdebater

@SniperGod
The Alien XO is kinda cool
Daphne Punk needs to make a comeback though

WebTool
WebTool

@massdebater
I wondered why I have not yet seen a suitable .gif of said character in PARTY HARD mode, lots of flashing lights and shit accompanying that stupid red alert sign.
Then I remembered it's 2017 not 2007.
Still disappointed though.

WebTool
WebTool

@SomethingNew
Orville really only comes up because people have jumped onto liking it as a way of hating on Discovery.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@WebTool
Because they totally couldn't be liking it because it's good amirite? It must totally because they hate STD.

In other news the new Ghost Busters is only criticized by sexists.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@Fried_Sushi
The Prime Directive also probably takes direct influence from Japan. In 1841 Japan was a feudalistic monarchy that was technologically backwards compared to most of the world and was mostly concerned with internal matters.

By 1941, it was a major world power that was conquering islands across the Pacific and land across Asia - and kind of being horrible dicks about it even by colonialist standards, because their society had not kept pace with their technological advancement. Japan committed a lot of atrocities and war-crimes from 1932-1945, but they were all of them just industrialized versions of the sort of thing that a Medieval army on the march would have gotten up to.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@Sir_Gallonhead
DS9 succeeded at introducing a darker element to the show precisely BECAUSE it was unique to that series. It made DS9 stand out and helped it find its own niche among the other Treks.

And even then I'd argue that it didn't succeed because Babylon 5 was better than Deep Space 9, regardless of whether or not the latter ripped off the former

@Lunatick
What separates STD from DS9 is that the writers of DS9 where really big Star Trek fanboys that grew up watching TOS and worked on TNG so they would have good inclination what makes the show truly Star Trek.

Agreed. As dark as Deep Space 9 got, there was never really a moment when I was watching it where I went "this doesn't feel like Trek anymore". I'd argue that the darkest moment in Star Trek is "In the Pale Moonlight", since the entire POINT of the episode is an utter betrayal of Star Trek's ideals...

...but the episode and its betrayal came after several seasons of buildup and development, and we got to watch the characters desperately struggle to not compromise who they were and what they served, but it wasn't WORKING, so Sisko was forced to do things a different way. But notably after that, the war DOES turn around, things DO gradually get better, and DS9 never really approached that level of darkness again, and indeed if I recall correctly the next few episodes were relatively "light" and gave us a breather.

STD doesn't have that. We leaped immediately into war crimes in the very pilot, and have just continued down from there.

Additionally, DS9 remembered a key point:

STAR TREK IS FUNNY

Hence we got the Ferengi episodes throughout its run; and of course, "Trials and Tribble-ations" being one of the best Star Trek episodes ever aired.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

@SomethingNew
B5 can be very Star Trek at times

Hell, just compare how the Shadow War was resolved vs. how the Dominion War was resolved.

Dominion War
Superior firepower, resources, and tactical ability. The Changeling bitch was about to bomb Cardassia back to its stone age, but that was a "fuck you", the war was over by that point and the question was just how much the Dominion were going to lose by.

Babylon 5
Talking and negotiation with the Vorlons and the Shadows, making them realize how pointless and self-defeating their argument had become and that the younger races no longer needed them.

Sherridan in the Battle of Corianna 6 even highlights that, militarily, the Alliance doesn't stand a chance against both the Vorlons AND the Shadows. The whole thing was just to get them talking to one another.

That's Star Trek right there.

@WebTool
I haven't seen any of Discovery yet, so I can assure you that that Orville stands on its own merits. Particularly after episode 3, I knew that I was watching Star Trek, just with a different coat of paint.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@New_Cliche
Never called anyone sexist, not sure what that shit is about. What I do know is that people saying "Orville is the new Star Trek" and bringing it up in Star Trek threads only do so to shit on Discovery.

5mileys
5mileys

@GoogleCat
Fuck off

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Burnblaze
You're really underselling everything that happened outside of the final military battle, not just in terms of building up to it, but in creating an actual peace that will hopefully last instead of just a cease-fire until the main Dominion forces start fucking everything up a century later. Militarily the Federation doesn't stand a chance against the Dominion either, the only reason they win was by bringing allies back in to the fold (including the Cardassians), verbally bitch-slapping the Prophets, and through Bashir and O'Brien finding the cure to the virus.

TreeEater
TreeEater

@5mileys
No.

askme
askme

@viagrandad
STAR TREK IS FUNNY

This seems to have slipped past alot of newer science fiction writers in general, almost all the new Scifi TV-series are dark and serious as fuck telling dark and serious stories that don't really have any levity at all. Hell even the lighting in most series is going with this theme, with everything kept as dark as possible.

Just compare that to Farscape, Stargate and the Star Trek, sure they did do dark and serious stories but at the end they where positive series and that the characters where decent people. And had lighting that actually conveyed that.

Personally I blame Battlestar Galactica from starting this trend with the new Scifi series. One of the reasons why I stopped watching it after season and half, because everything in it was so fucking serious all the time.

Spamalot
Spamalot

@askme
Thanks for reminding me of some of the best episodes of SG1.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Sisko is a war criminal, and if the ds9 writers had any balls, they would have had him tried by a neutral civilian court.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Spazyfool
Look ma, I posted it again.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Spamalot
The Orville's humour reminds me a lot of Stargate at times. It's mostly the banter.

Methnerd
Methnerd

You know, I didn't like the TOS Uniforms from the movies when I was younger.

I called them the Murderous Maroons.

But you know what? I think they've grown on me.

Soft_member
Soft_member

@Methnerd
Sounds like a fungal infection.
You should apply lotion for that.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Harmless_Venom
I liked ENT.

I think it got a lot of shit, but it wasn't too bad.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Fuzzy_Logic
wasn't too bad

Is pretty much the definition of mediocre.
Enterprise has some good points but unfortunately due to its short series length it never really managed to stop being more than 50% bad by weight. With some incredibly low points to unbalance it further.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Fuzzy_Logic
I'd rather watch Enterprise than Voyager any day of the week.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@BunnyJinx
I would prefer Voyager personally. They're both the definition of mediocrity in shows, but I actually like a few of Voy's characters unlike Ent.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Raving_Cute
I'll take Bakula over Mulgrew any day of the week.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@Gigastrength
And I'll take Tuvok and the EMH over the entire cast of Enterprise any day of the week. It's a personal taste thing, man.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Raving_Cute
Since we are talking about ENT characters.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@TalkBomber
For me, nobody on Enterprise was as annoying as Neelix, or Kes, or Belanna, or Tom Paris, or Harry Kim, or Chakotay. Also, I really hated the Delta Quadrant setting and was glad to be at home again. But it's like you said, personal taste.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@SomethingNew
I felt the same about literally the entire Enterprise main cast. Only character I actually liked was Shran and he didn't show up enough for my liking. I would *totally* watch Star Trek: Shran's Space Adventures though.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@TalkBomber
Do you think the new Federation would have made him a captain like they did with Idris Elba?

Would be nice to see a bunch of Andorians trying to learn the Prime Directive.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@whereismyname
I like to imagine that there was a brief intermediary period between UFP becoming a thing and the red tape getting slapped on.

In that time the others can see what the Vulcans are going to impose on them and start getting as much shit done as possible. Shran, for example, gets hold of their Enterprise reports and high warps it to the planet Flox decided to let die for no reason because fuck you that's why.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

@RavySnake
I hate that we were supposed to side with Phlox in that matter.

Honestly, I think in the end, Archer's speech would have been better if he said he understood why Phlox felt the way he felt, and that maybe, a directive will exist for Star Fleet not to interfere with planets.

"But it doesn't yet. Give them the damn medicine."

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@SomethingNew
Voyager had the best premise of any trek since the original series, and that absolutely relies on the strangeness of the Delta quadrant.

hairygrape
hairygrape

@Spazyfool
The idea behind the setting may be great, but the execution was often not very good.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@hairygrape
Describes post-TNG Berman Trek in a nutshell.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@Spazyfool
I actually agree on that, and that's one of the most frustrating things about the show.
It's an immediately gripping idea, a way to reclaim that beyond-the-frontier feel of TOS that TNG lost by pootling around and manage to inflict a lot of interesting problems that maybe their increasingly better tech couldn't deal with.

And it was spaffed up the wall like so much wasted jizz.

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Fuzzy_Logic
NuBSG was also pretty frustrating, but for different reasons. It captured the feelings that voyager should have captured with a similar premise, but then started fantasizing about robotJesus instead of lost in space problems, which made me go flaccid.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@CodeBuns
Fuck You Rick Berman

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Snarelure
That's what comes of pretending to have a plan but not in fact, having a plan. Babylon 5 had a plan. It had to break and change that plan repeatedly, though some of that was through built-in get-out conditions for if actors suddenly became unavailable like they often do. But because it had a plan with specific beats to hit and a defined end in sight, it managed to tell a coherent story (even with the sudden mess of season 5)

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@WebTool

It comes up because they're directly comparable (one is aping Trek's style from the last 20 years, and the other is the official Trek show of the present). I haven't watched anything beyond the first two STD episodes, and didn't even want to watch those. It was bad. Bad enough that I don't want to watch it until it's completely over and available on some other streaming service.

Contrast this with The Orville: it's fun and understands Star Trek, and I'm able to ignore most of McFarlane's lame jokes. Additionally, you can watch it from Fox's website. The episodes have been very much like watching a Trek episode, but with a slightly less competent crew. So far, it's been better than VOY and better than ENT (though that isn't surprising).

@TalkBomber

This is because Shran is played by Jeffrey Combs, and Combs is fantastic at everything he does. Personal tastes? ENT>VOY. I find VOY boring outside of the EMH and Tuvok.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@hairygrape

What about Star Trek 5 Year Mission strats? What's the ideal crew complement for 4 person game?

Is TNG easier than TOS?

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@askme
and that the characters where decent people.

I'm...not sure I'd go quite that far with FarScape. But they weren't...typically...assholes. All the time.

@Methnerd
What, the Wrath of Khan era uniforms? Love 'em. I think all that was needed was to give them proper Trek-style division colors rather than having them all be red; but then again I think they were all red to symbolize the fact that in Wrath of Khan, someone was going to die. The idea of "redshirts" was already well-established by then.

@Fuzzy_Logic
Enterprise is, unironically, my favorite Trek series, with TOS as a close second, TNG and (let's be honest with ourselves here) ORV in the middle, VOY and DS9 duking it out for penultimate, and STD in dead last.

The main failing of DS9 isn't that it's by any means a bad show - it's just that I watched Babylon 5 before I ever sat down to watch DS9, and I can't help but compare the two shows, and DS9 comes out wanting every time in the comparison.

The main failing of VOY is that it's a bad show...but then it'll whip out "Year of Hell" or "Scorpion" or "Blink of an Eye". The best of VOY was fucking amazing...it's just that it had so much shit.

@Snarelure
It's also fucking dark as hell in tone, right to the end credits of the final episode.

Would it REALLY have been that much to ask for the end of nuBSG be the Fleet reaching Earth at long last, Galactica's "back" is broken so she'll never jump again, they're stuck wherever they've ended up...and then close on a zooming-in shot of the night side of Earth, brilliantly lit up with the cities across our homeworld's surface, and the final thing we see is a couple of astronauts looking out at the Fleet from the International Space Station in amazement and anticipation at the Fleet?

Was an unambiguously GOOD END really that much to ask for?

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Sir_Gallonhead

See, the red jackets were part of officer uniforms.

And it was your epaulet that showed what division you were in.

The enlisted jumpsuits weren't too bad, either. And they had the division color in there somewhere.

idontknow
idontknow

@BunnyJinx
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Starfleet_uniform_(late_2270s-2350s)

Here... once you read this, they'll be your favorite uniform too.

Also, why is the Enterprise-C the absolute sexiest of the lot? That Ambassador chassis, unf!

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Stark_Naked
The issue is that Phlox was still have refused; the man stood by his principles, alien and inhuman though they were in that case. That's the problem when you have only one actual medical officer on-board.

Personally if we're going with the idea that evolution has a goal (which, while nonsense in real life, is at least consistent with how Trek has treated it), I would have had Phlox NOT find a cure BUT find out that the Menks are evolving and the Valakians are dying due to evolution, and so instead the argument centers on whether the Enterprise should stop looking and leave, or else stay and continue to try and help. Also I would have changed the nature of the "disease" the Valakians had to simply declining birth rates - no Valakian is actually suffering or dying, they're just not having as many kids as they used to, and less and less each year, due to the genetic defect.

Alternatively, I wouldn't have written the damn episode at all.

Alternatively, I would have kept the episode exactly the same, but instead of ending credits we'd instead see Picard and the crew of the Enterprise-D in "Homeward" watching as Boraal dies and not lifting a finger to save any Boraalans, just to remind people that whatever you try and accuse Phlox and Archer of, Picard was worse.

But mostly I wouldn't have written that episode and instead tried to come up with some other pseudo-Prime Directive episode.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@idontknow
The Ambassador is my favorite Federation vessel...though it is not my favorite Star Trek vessel overall.

"We are back."

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Gigastrength
Blame Worf's brother for waiting until the very last minute to send out a distress call and then coming up with retarded plans, which prevented any hope of saving enough Boraalans. Congrats, all you've done is rescue a few dozen people, meaning the entire race will die off in a hundred or so years before they even discover agriculture. Dipshit.

Techpill
Techpill

@eGremlin
No, Picard makes it very clear that the Federation's official policy in this case is to do nothing and let the Boraalans die, barring any ability to fix the atmosphere, which they didn't have. Nikolai Rozhenko is a damn hero for saving who he could.

Likewise, it's made clear in the episode that the atmospheric changes occurred very recently and suddenly - Nikolai sent out a distress call as soon as he realized what was happening.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

@Techpill
Nikolai is a hero for prolonging their suffering
No

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Dreamworx
Any life is better than no life.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@PurpleCharger
I think with a 4 person game you're gonna have to make use of the secondary character thing. In short; the game realises that not everyone on the crew is always appropriate for the situation so rather than try and make everyone hyper-skilled so they can be (aka the Tom Paris is now good at X approach), a limited amount of people can create and utilise extra characters. Which some might not ever realise is a thing if they didn't point it out given the norm is to run only one character at a time.

@idontknow
I'm fairly certain that the Enterprise C is mathematically perfect. Or near enough. Almost everything is the right size and the right positions.

Inmate
Inmate

@Evil_kitten
It's still no life, the only thing you've done is change when.

King_Martha
King_Martha

@Inmate
You're also casually forgetting that the Enterprise-D could have carried thousands of Boraalans, particularly if they were kept sedated for the whole trip and so didn't take up much space, and that's without taking into account the questionably-safe possibilities like storing their patterns in transporter buffers.

There were numerous options available to Picard. He didn't take them because of muh playing God.

I'll say it again: Rozhenko was a damn hero for trying. It's always better to be asked "why didn't you stay out of it?" than "where were you when you were needed?"

viagrandad
viagrandad

@happy_sad
Fuck off, Fringe was a lot more enjoyable. STD is bearable at best, a lot more memey and a lot less plausible, both in terms of characters and science.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@Inmate
That is all life.

@Techpill
Some user last time this subject was raised did maths involving observed transporter cycle time and the number of transporters.

The conclusion was they would have filled Enterprise to maximum designed capacity in under an hour.

Also that they can synthesize complex chemicals using the replicator so it should be easy enough to abandon areas of the ship, fill it with sleeping gas and beam them into it. One moment on dying world, next in the land of dreams.

Once you have scooped up as many as possible out of immediate danger you can start looking for longer term solutions and you will have time to do so.

But then the PD is an absolute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOWpgx1WZYA

Oh look at that. Fucking around with a pre-warp society and making exceptions to the PD.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@viagrandad
I think that Anon's point was that STD is trying to be Fringe in Space, and that's why it's failing: it's not what any of us are here for, and the more it tries to be Fringe the more it highlights that it's not Star Trek...in which case, why is it even called Star Trek?

TechHater
TechHater

Im bringing some music to this thread to cheer us up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaX3U1w2Kjg

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@askme
In fairness, Galactica could get away with the grimdark because of what it was, and because we were kind of *lacking* in continuously serious dramatic scifi at the time and because it went hand-in-hand with the "military is always right, submit to authority for your own good, democracy is slow and untidy" narrative that went on for the first half of it even though that didn't make it any less enjoyable.

The problem is that all the new ones started trying to mash together BSG and Firefly - a band of renegades fighting the system, but DARK and EDGY. Combine that with the meteoric rise of "teens with attitude save the world" YA fiction, and you've got your perfect storm for a million identical sci-fi shows like Dark Matter, Killjoys, and even Trek: Renegades.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@TechHater
I can dig it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwhAq3F8NCE

Emberburn
Emberburn

@Nude_Bikergirl
So basically Sci-Fi on TV today has entered the same Dark Age that plagued superhero comics in the 90s.

FastChef
FastChef

@Gigastrength
Homeward

Ohboyherewegoagain.jpg and fuckmeforevenrespondingyeahIknowbutitbugsme.

Archer was worse because it was explicit that they could have helped. And if Phlox refused, well that'd bring up something interesting to go over whilst he's relieved of duty and probably sent to the brig for refusing a direct order.

This was not so in Homeward. Yes, it was played badly and written without sufficient clarity as to remove ambiguity, but it was still reasonably implied that there was not sufficient time or capability to preserve the Boraalans in any meaningful way that would not bring yet more harm to them or harm to whatever world they're placed upon, given there was no plan in place. It's a no-win situation. If they had proper time and warning then I would not be surprised at all if they would have violated the prime directive in order to preserve them in some actual reasonably planned out manner, because we've seen the compassionate response win out over the rules repeatedly, when it will (probably) work.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@SomethingNew
Also I love this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2ftCitvyQ

Spamalot
Spamalot

@FastChef
but it was still reasonably implied that there was not sufficient time or capability to preserve the Boraalans

Other than using the technology that they had on the ship and we had already seen them use.

that would not bring yet more harm to them

More harm than trying to chew hard vacuum?

Methshot
Methshot

@Emberburn
Yep. And STD's either fallen straight into the hole, or ran into it gleefully because it sells.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@FastChef
The difference between the Boraalans and the Valakians is that the Boraalans were dying RIGHT NOW, as a species, whereas by Phlox's own estimation (and the Valakians' own, IIRC), they had about 150 years of life left to their species. The Valakian species was not in an immediate danger, the Boraalans were.

It's the difference between a fire safety inspector who notices deficiencies and doesn't report them despite the risk; and a man who walks by a burning building while thinking "oh, that's sad" even as he hears people screaming inside and he is wearing flame-proof clothing.

The Valakians still had a chance to save themselves, or find another species who would elect to save them. Archer didn't help, but the Valakians are not worse off than they were before they contacted Enterprise and their situation is no different than if they hadn't.

The Boraalans are dead.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@TechHater
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w34fSnJNP-4

iluvmen
iluvmen

@SniperGod
The Boraalans would be dead even if they did intervene. It's just some of them would die somewhere else. Possibly irreparably damaging another planet's ecosystem in the process.

One lot were caught in a situation where fuck all could be done beyond the pretty impractical idea of trying to grab and jam cargobays full of hundreds or thousands of people without time to prepare and then go dump them on some unsuspecting planet or try and deal with the prospect of trying to uplift them without them simply imploding as a culture. The other was suffering a crisis over time, deliberately went out and sought help, and were denied it for no good reason.

The Valakians had a chance, and help was given. Up until the point Phlox had some fucking weird idea and figured he should let them die. Both are shite. But the we-must-do-something approach has a solid chance of causing harm to wherever the Booralans would have been relocated to. The Booralans problem was a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation where no matter what, the Booralans are dead. The Valakians problem was the insane choice of a single doctor who simply decided to just not help after already discovering the fix.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Nojokur
When someone does something they're not supposed to that works during a sparring match we call it "Kirking."

Also I fucking love that there's obviously a stuntman throwing the punches in this clip.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Emberburn
You can't fix stupid and CBS will fail before it ceases to be stupid.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@CouchChiller
Pretty sure that stuntman was often bridge-crew, like image related here in Sulu's seat.

I think that's him anyway.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@StonedTime
That picture. With the Starfleet insignia belt buckle for Kirk.

Amazing.

WebTool
WebTool

@iluvmen
It's just some of them would die somewhere else.

This excuse fundamentally does not work, unless you're arguing against helping anyone who is ever in distress.

"Captain, we're getting a hail from a ship in distress - "
"If we save them now they're just going to go so some Federation outpost and breathe valuable air and eat valuable food and probably expect medical attention or some shit."
"Captain, they're dying - "
"LET them die."

I mean, Jesus, man. That's cold.

Possibly irreparably damaging another planet's ecosystem in the process.

A few thousand bronze age people cannot irreparably damage a planet's ecosystem.

full of hundreds or thousands

From TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise", we know that the Enterprise can carry 6,000 troops above and beyond her normal crew, assuming that the Galaxy's specifications is not incredibly different between timelines. Even assuming a large difference in internal configuration, it seems reasonable to assume that the D could have carried, say, 1,000 Boraalans, which seems well within the limits of the D based on the ship as we've seen her.

The minimum viable population of humans is about 160 people, or 80 if you're good at social engineering.

or try and deal with the prospect of trying to uplift them without them simply imploding as a culture

Or just do what Rozhenko did writ large. Bring in xenosociologists and xenoanthropologists to figure out how to solve this mess. Becuase it IS a mess, but at least it's a mess that involves actually trying to save people.

Your entire argument boils down to

A thing is hard
It might not even be possible
So let's not try it.

farquit
farquit

@Raving_Cute
Could probably even get away with that (as in not immediately look like a huge nerd) as a belt buckle in real life because it's oriented differently from the instantly recognisable arrowhead.

That pic reminds me that the TOS bridge nearly always looked busy in a way most later things didn't. Always jamming in some extras to fill in a few of the consoles. Though I guess it helped that the design meant there was always gonna be people in shot, unlike the big plain side walls of the D's bridge.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Sharpcharm
To be fair, creative and maths-intensive solutions seem not to be encouraged in Starfleet.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

Threadly reminder that technical manuals are not considered canonical material and therefore cannot be used to deduce what any ship is or is not capable of within the confines of a canonical television episode or movie.

StonedTime
StonedTime

@farquit
This is actually a thing in both DS9 and TNG as well, the trick is just that those bridges were *bigger* than in TOS and the cinematography is tighter so you didn't notice as much. If you really pay attention though, you can see extras in the back of the TNG bridge pretty constantly and in DS9, they're all over the place, just always background.

TechHater
TechHater

@farquit
Wasn't just the bridge, even random hallway shots were usually packed with people coming and going.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@TechHater
Yeah, did anyone ever explain why that was the case? In-universe, I know it's because the Constitution-class has ~430 crew members and was a tiny ass ship but why was this the case out of universe? Did the showrunners ever explain why there were so many people on-screen?

Lunatick
Lunatick

@StonedTime
Which DS9 bridge? The Defiant or DS9's Command Centre?

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Lunatick
Ops. The Defiant has almost no extras, except in a few battle sequences when you can see an extra or two by the back console. Ops though is usually well populated.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@WebTool
Lets be clear about this:
My problem with the whole thing is that it's not the worst thing to be unable to help and do nothing. It's worse to be knowingly able to help and to not. Both are shit situations.

Homeward fucked up conveying that because it wanted to wax on about the prime directive. It implied through events and actions that they didn't have time to beam aboard tons of people. They'd have had to come in prepared to scoop up, knock-out, store and maintain people, and since they just turned up and grabbed the science team, it's implied they were not in a state where they could do something. The story fucked up by making the prime directive the sole stated excuse when the situation implied (but not explicitly stated) that it wasn't. The story fucked up so much in so many places that it's just a really shit episode overall.

But the prime directive is supposedly partly there to help protect against snap judgements like grabbing a random block of people from a planet with no further idea than putting them in storage until they can be put elsewhere, (which was the situation presented), because the consequences of all that could very easily be harmful. Introducing an alien life form into a new environment has been repeatedly shown to be a destructive thing, and that's just on Earth. When it's people, it's even worse than dumping rats off somewhere that can't deal with them because people adapt and attack anything they might consider a threat to their existence. Small populations of people without modern technology have still been able to pretty much destroy entire species through hunting or altering their environment. It would have made for a much better story if they had turned up prepared to save people, and spent the episode working out how. But they didn't. They chose to use a prime directive excuse.

Dear Doctor doesn't even have a prime directive or incapability to help excuse. Just one asshole Doctor and an idiot captain. That's worse.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@TurtleCat
@TechHater

Yeah, did anyone ever explain why that was the case? In-universe, I know it's because the Constitution-class has ~430 crew members and was a tiny ass ship but why was this the case out of universe? Did the showrunners ever explain why there were so many people on-screen?

It's more expensive to hire more people, so I suspect it's just because that was their vision for space travel in a military vessel.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@SniperGod
mweeeeeh drive's too complicated nyeeeeeh I didnt sign up for this
gurrrrrr we warship now burrrr blood on your hands hurrrrr get back to work
DEEP INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS

@massdebater
Alien XO is pretty much the only thing I like so far.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@BinaryMan
Why do I like Romulans so much?

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Playboyize
You like smug douchebag antagonistic elves.

Soft_member
Soft_member

mustered the will to watch ep 4 of discovery
it's found new ways to disappoint me

How is this possible? Even the worst episodes of TNG weren't this bad.

girlDog
girlDog

@Soft_member
How is this possible?
Never underestimate the stupidity of network executives.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@AwesomeTucker
Cheeky bugger

whereismyname
whereismyname

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the most average character and 10 being Mary Sue squared, how bad would an android character be for an STA game set around 2379? Would they have to be an undiscovered Soong-type or could some other scientist have achieved a breakthrough?

Methnerd
Methnerd

@whereismyname
Considering Data has been shown to be capable of taking over the Enterprise and flying her anywhere he wants by himself, you'd have to make him extremely autistic to compensate. That's what TNG did. Data even laugh in the face of security attempting to stop him. Puny humans are nothing but insects to him. All of a sudden he "wants to be human" and "laughs inappropriately", then it's all good

Emberburn
Emberburn

@idontknow
@cum2soon
The Ambassador is *almost* perfect, and the refit makes her even closer to it: nacelles need to be entirely below the saucer in frontal profile, and the neck needs to terminate at the saucer rim.
Personally, I also like the upside-down Excelsior shuttlebay that the refit has under the fantail, and I like the original Probert design's canted nacelle pylons: I made a 3D model some time ago in sketchup (don't knock it, it's great for building 3D dungeon maps!)
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/bb8ef1ef-6463-4404-a7cc-5045418bb997/Ambassador-class-Starship-hybrid-WIP

Evilember
Evilember

@Playboyize
Because they have cool spaceships and a lot of potential (almost always squandered).

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@ZeroReborn
I'm honestly predicting that he'll end up being Burnham's final boss for season 1, the water bear drive ends up taking them to Qo'nos (or some equally vulnerable target) and Mike'll have to come to grips with her guilt enough to realize this guy deserves to be mutinied, rallies the crew, and star fleet pulls Its head from its gaping pre-TOS asshole and realizes that entrusting complete faith and power in one commanding officer is a really bad idea.

tl;dr Burnham's gonna mutiny again to complete her character evolution

FastChef
FastChef

@whereismyname

3-4ish. There was a bunch of androids discovered during TOS. The character could be one of those, or something more alien created by some species that was less humanoid. Data is not at all unique in Trek, aside from his appearance/backstory.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@BinaryMan
I feel like the D'deridex is visually unbalanced: ditching the lower half of the "shell" and making the "head" half as tall while bulking up the neck does wonders (hence my valdore/mogai fetish), although that strays too far into Klingon territory...
Perhaps the upswept wings like pic related (V30-class/Vas'deletham/Winged Defender-class) are the core Romulan aesthetic? The very first Romulan ship we see (TOS warbird) has them...

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@FastChef
But weren't all of those more or less broken by simple logic traps and/or unexpected behavior? I'd hate for the helm officer to keel-over mid duty shift because someone said "This statement is false."

iluvmen
iluvmen

@whereismyname
20 if Soong-type, 5+ if not. The way everyone treats Data, it's clear that androids in general are unheard of as crew, especially Starfleet crew, even if there are a bunch out there generally.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Spazyfool
I think he can live with it.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@GoogleCat
The Double D is beautiful, what you posted is ugly.

DeathDog
DeathDog

@TalkBomber
I would actually like that. It's stupid how that guy even has crew to begin with. He treats everyone like shit on his boots for no reason, coerces scientists and prisoners and "assets" to do his bidding, sends his security bitch after them to get in the way of their work, uses the bitch's death to somehow guilt trip them into continuing to work for his stupid ass as if it was their fault, tortures aliens despite having aliens on his vessel, claps sarcastically when his science vessel crew do poorly in battle simulations whose entire purpose is to allow failure without consequences. Even his 1st officer doesn't seem to like him. And that's just episode 4... You wanna mutiny against this guy? Entire fucking ship's probably behind you.

Real captains like Picard respect and defend their crew. In one episode some red shirt was accused of being a romulan spy and saboteur because he had romulan lineage or something. Picard put his ass on the line to defend his crewmate besides probably not even knowing him. Lesser men would've just let it happen

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@Booteefool
But the prime directive is supposedly partly there to help protect against snap judgements like grabbing a random block of people from a planet with no further idea than putting them in storage until they can be put elsewhere

No, it simply covers that scenario. The intent of the Prime Directive is to prevent an Imperial Japan scenario like I outlined above, where a culture or species gets a hold of a technology that they are not advanced enough to understand the full consequences of its use.

When it's people, it's even worse

Even the Federation does not value non-sapient life over sapient life, as evidenced by the fact that they HAVE done evacuations of populations from extant settled worlds to new worlds, as well as having ongoing colonization efforts.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Crazy_Nice

Yes, but that doesn't mean a player character android has to be one of the models from TOS. I was using them to illustrate that Data is not the first or only android Trek has ever seen. A player probably shouldn't be allowed to play a Soon type android.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

@DeathDog
Yeah. This is going to have to be done delicately and I don't trust them to get it right. Also, it would have been better off being the plot arc for season 2 or something. I think season 1 of shenanigans on the Shinzhou to establish some of these characters before the Klingon incident would have been better for the show in general. We could have seen what Michael is like in normal circumstances, learned more about Saru, seen Captain Notsobad in action for more than 2 episodes. But what do I know?

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Emberfire
I was planning on it being a supporting character anyways, though I completely agree with you and other posts that being a Soong Type is going too far. The idea I'm tossing around is an android that's basically like the Doctor on VOY. I.e. since it's been left on for awhile it's developed a personality and what not past its original programming.

WebTool
WebTool

@kizzmybutt

Sounds fine to me.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

New Thread
/tg/thread/55877312#p55877312
/tg/thread/55877312#p55877312
/tg/thread/55877312#p55877312
/tg/thread/55877312#p55877312

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

tng s5e1
data's 1st command
singlehandedly solves the "detect cloaked romulan ships" problem
earned the respect as captain of even his detractors

So why isn't this guy supreme commander of starfleet yet? He's the best officer in their ranks

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