Continuing from the previous thread on the subject:
A conceptual reconstruction of the WFB setting alongside a shifted axis: the Empire is based on the Ottoman, rather than Holy Roman (or at least a highly idealized, anachronistic, fantasy theme park version that's borderline pagan and deals with the occasional chaos invasion).
The sacred weapon is a bow. Not-Sigmar was still an ancient barbarian king, but of the steppe riding kind. Wolves are still worshiped, but falcons are also super important.
Chaos comes from the South, not the North, in the form of elephant riding not-Carthaginians-as-depicted-by-Romans.
Persia is Bretonnia. They use elephants for good and something something winged demigod warriors.
not-Europe receives about as much attention as Araby does in WFB: it's mostly a place you trade with and the lore mentions you might've invaded at one point.
Elves might be genies, the High/Dark/Wood distinction replaced with Marid/Ifrit/Djinn elemental distinction. Others call for them to be replaced with Norse mythology inspired giants, to keep them as a foreign cultural element.
Dwarfs still need equivalence, unless the elves become genies, in which they can be easily turned into the giants. Probably not-so-good-suggestion: dwarfs are even more literally Jewish than before and are depicted as some kind of exiled race of scholar-merchant gnomes who give the king loans until he decides it's easier to call a pogrom than to pay them back.
Beastmen are based on African folklore. Lots of evil hyena witches, and hippopotami are the devil, sometimes literally.
Lizardman now live in the jungles of not-India. Rather than lizards, they're monkeys, based on Vanara legend. Various types of monkeys perform various social functions. Debate is still on on the Slaan equivalents.
Skaven possibly turned into shapeshifting snake people.
Orcs and goblins pending a comically violent yet ultimately rather affectionate stereotype, American Deep South is a good candidate but hard to place in a setting inspired mostly by the Mediterranean and West Asia. Hungarians? It'd explain why they keep fighting with the not-Turkish over a shitty mountain pass.
Undead would probably lean more towards Tomb Kings than Vampire Counts. Sylvania equivalent pending placement.
James Adams
Also nice miniatures. Jezzails for all.
Noah Wilson
...
Jason Martinez
Le bump for interest.
Hudson Johnson
You could just name change everything about WHFB Empire to Chinese equivalents and have it be completely reasonable and without actually changing any story elements.
Northern chaos invasions, civil wars and unruly neighbors included
Eli Thomas
>monkey Slaan equivalent Easy, a big fat Orangutan. Or maybe several big fat Orangutans!
Lincoln Ross
>not-Carthaginians-as-depicted-by-Romans
Could you be more specific with that?
Noah Ward
It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Aside from having been gone for a millennium and a half when the Ottoman dynasty was established, they were a civilized state based on trade.
Bentley Hill
Kislev = Arabia or Egypt? I'm not too well versed in the region.
Jordan Hernandez
Kislev = Kislev.
Slavs were a major foe for the Ottomans. Egypt was part of the Ottoman Empire since the early 1500s, which is to say, the entirety of its greatness.
Austin Cooper
If anything, Chaos should be based off the Turco-Mongol Timurids. The Timurid invasion of the Ottoman Empire nearly ended the Ottomans, until Timur died and his coalition fell apart.
Chaos recruits from the tatar-like nomads that inhabit the wastelands east of the the Empire. A rider that has earned the favor of the Chaos gods is rewarded with a devil-horse, which is far larger, faster, and more durable than normal horses (counts as monstrous cavalry). Over time, the horse and rider becomes symbiotic with each other. Think "It that rides as one", but not quite to that degree.
The man on top of the horse also grows in size, and shoots arrows the size of javelins from bows that mortal races can't draw.
Easton Watson
I actually suggest using african folklore for dwarfs:
>the local smith guards his metalworking techniques as secrets which may give him a mystical status, like a mage and his apprentice. One of these secrets is using mud from termite hives to build his furnace. Instead of ordinary metalurgy and mages, one can consider magic users are artificers. sacred-texts.com/etc/mhs/mhs10.htm Note: this isn't really exclusive to african folklore, but the african continent has more beliefs about the special/mythical/magical status of smiths than elsewhere.
>Mmoatia are "dwarves " or "fairies". All over west africa we have these cognate hairy dwarves. They like caves and mountains in Mali, but in Ghana they love forests. The black dwarves are cool and might kidnap you to teach you magic sometimes.
>Red dwarves and white dwarves are sociopathic little fuckers who love stealing and tormenting people. Their master is the evil forest god Sasanbosam. As far as I know, they're like a mix of dwarves and elves/fairies. >Follow very specific rules, and you can get great magic/power out of them. >Fuck up the specific rules about how to deal with them, and you're fucked. Except instead of "OOOH YOU BROKE ELF LAWS NOW YOU'RE STUCK IN ELFLAND FOREVER!" they just eat you.
Carter Harris
Further south, you have the jungle from which beastmen may come. Here is some african monster lore for beastmen:
>Be afraid of the hippo. It fucks up crocs and lions, runs faster than you, is very territorial and agressive. It kills more people each year than crocs, lions, elephants etc. youtube.com/watch?v=1gdTOHWYVLM This should be the minotaur equivalent.
>african witches warosu.org/tg/thread/30685000 >I actually forgot that one. I've read accounts of african witches creating a wide variety of zombies and other monsters as minions. There's also stories where killing a witch just creates a powerful evil spirit. I read a Hausa legend about how witches have small mouths of razor sharp teeth all over their backs. They can cause blight, storms, and plagues. And almost all of them shapeshift into creatures of the night or ride on them. The reference I've got here shows them with talking owls, baboons, and hyenas to deliver messages. And just about all of them are cannibals. There's an account of witches using nightmare demons to kill their enemies in their sleep through sheer terror.
TOTEMISM >Most African clans at some point thought their ancestor was some sort of animal, or was saved by an animal, or their ancestor saved the animal. This created an affinity with the creature. >The Bush soul is usually a bigger, stronger, and more powerful version of the real thing with sometimes a noticeable peculiarly like albinism. Most typically have wild animals for bush souls, bust women often have domestic animals for bush souls. >People have the ability to project their "bush soul" into the totem of their clan. >Killing a bush soul will kill the person attached to it, but killing a person's body while they're projecting their bush soul causes the bush spirit to run wild and even become a malevolent spirit. >Sorcerers can capture other people's bush souls and use them to do their bidding, or sell them.
Basically, chaos witches made monsters out of people's bush souls.
This could help:
>For many centuries a leopard cult has existed in West Africa, particularly in Nigeria and Sierra Leone, wherein its members kill as does the leopard, by slashing, gashing, and mauling their human prey with steel claws and knives. Later, during gory ceremonies, they drink the blood and eat the flesh of human victims. unexplainedstuff.com/Secret-Societies/The-Leopard-Men.html
Jordan Murphy
Bretonnians become a Samurai charicature? The three types of Elf somehow feel off, though.
Jace Phillips
This, Organutangs. Kislev can still be slavs/russia yeah The Roman depiction of Carthaginians was as savages who were too cowardly to fight for themselves and sacrificed children to their gods. This depiciton became so prevalent we actually have no idea what Carthaginian religion was actually like.
Ian Brown
The elves would be... hmm, what predates the Ottomans?
Shit like the Akkadians (with Gilgamesh and Enkidu Aenarion and Caledor), the Dark Elves could be the Assyrians, and Nomadic wood elves
Kayden Wilson
Elves are embodied spirit soldiers. Ulthuan is heaven, Naggaroth is the underworld, and Athel Loren is a mystical mountain country, or even just the material world in general.
Ayden Robinson
Immediately, the Eastern Roman Empire. They say themselves more of successors to the Abbasid Caliphate though. Especially after they usurped the office.
Xavier Gutierrez
>It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Neither does Chaos or much of Warhammer as is
I do like the idea of the invaders coming from the South, but the problem is that the "African barbarian" stereotype doesn't really include leaving Africa much
James Lopez
no matter what you do with Africa it becomes a stereotype, it may be best to remove it from the world entirely. Make them the Sea Peoples from antiquity, have them come from the Mediterranean somewhere?
Daniel Long
We need Africa for the badass bush beastmen tho
Charles Butler
>Debate is still on on the Slaan equivalents.
The one good thing about that movie.
Ian Hill
>The Roman depiction of Carthaginians was as savages who were too cowardly to fight for themselves and sacrificed children to their gods
To be fair, archaeological digs have actually found disturbingly large numbers of child bones in and around religious structures of Carthage. The Romans absolutely exaggerated the shit out of /something/, that's their whole schtick, but there's an element of truth in there somewhere.
Robert Walker
you and a bunch of others have already suggested orangutans and I want you to know you're correct and also handsome
Bentley Torres
There's also the fact that pretty much every single culture that kept records and has encountered the Carthaginians mentioned the child sacrifice thing. It's more or less certain.
The Romans however greatly exaggerated both this and all of their other supposedly "evil" traits. They painted them as being like something between the chaos dwarfs and skaven, whereas the real picture was probably just of a highly successful city of maritime merchants.
Aaron Moore
I thought that the elves=giants thing was set in stone? Or was that only when you were discussing a 40K equivalent? Because I do dig the "high elves/eldar are frost giants, dark elves/eldar are fire giants" thing.
Austin Gomez
>Orcs and goblins pending a comically violent yet ultimately rather affectionate stereotype, American Deep South is a good candidate but hard to place in a setting inspired mostly by the Mediterranean and West Asia. Hungarians? It'd explain why they keep fighting with the not-Turkish over a shitty mountain pass.
You would be extremely hard pressed to find a suitable racial stereotype, especially here. The greenskin depiction is actually (surprising, I know) a very nuanced combination of stereotypically "good" and "bad" traits, placed under the lens of dark comedy. It takes both a lot of balls and a lot of subtlety not just to be able to pick the group you want to turn into orcs, but to do this without going into the extremes of either making them irredeemably sucky (like what happened when someone suggested basing them on "gangsta culture", as people couldn't detach themselves enough from their opinions on black people to make it actually funny) or full on admirable noble savages (which I promise you is what would happen if you let Veeky Forums try and turn them into Southern stereotypes, as most of Veeky Forums loves the South and wouldn't be able to depict it in a less than favorable light)
Elijah Hughes
>as most of Veeky Forums loves the South and wouldn't be able to depict it in a less than favorable light
what
Blake Flores
>Probably not-so-good-suggestion: dwarfs are even more literally Jewish than before and are depicted as some kind of exiled race of scholar-merchant gnomes who give the king loans until he decides it's easier to call a pogrom than to pay them back.
Jewish and Arabian folklore are surprisingly light on the "little people" myths that have been popular basically everywhere else. So if you want that, yeah, you literally got to go with no shit Jewgnomes.
Parker Hall
I love the look on his face
Colton Gomez
Does that mean Cathay would finally get represented?
Brody Torres
No. Never Ever. Get out weeb
Chase Reyes
Is it weeb when they want to see China?
Asher Martinez
more like weib amirite
Elijah Martinez
Yes
Logan Wright
You know, the closest thing Turkey had to Sylvania would be... Transylvania, which they invaded more than once.
Although if you want to retain Sylvania's relation to the Empire (as a sort of dark mirror of the same culture), you're going to have a bit of a harder time. Turkey per se doesn't have any myths we'd identify as proper "vampires". Greece does, but contrary to popular belief they're not the same culture.
Charles Mitchell
So why not make the Vampires greeks?
And instead of blood they destroy your economy
Nathan Williams
Vampires come just to settle their debt with Turks, user. Blood debt
Christopher Hughes
Like I said, not the same culture. Part of Sylvania's shtick is that they're like the Empire, but ruled by vampires. If we really make this setting a "mirror universe" where the relations between things are equal, that means the vampire nation needs to be part of the Empire equivalent, which is Turkish.
Speaking of which, I don't know about making a bow their sacred weapon. Part of the deal means this should also be the basis of a far-future equivalent game, no? And while you could justify warhammers being used in a dark future alongside firearms as the melee option, justifying a bow would be a lot harder (if you already have firearms, a bow is just redundant)
Jackson Cox
Scimitar then?
Also, would the dark mirror of the Ottomon Empire be uhh.. the ERE?
Easton Hernandez
Bows were the most important weapons to the Turkish steppe peoples, the most mystical and holy, and considered the most heroic. There's really no way around it. Better just find some shitty excuse ("Warp") for bow wielding space marines.
Jason King
this is fantasy anyway who gives a shit about the 40k version?
Landon Hill
I was just following the logic of making things as close equivalents as possible. Almost everything in fantasy has a 40K mirror, especially the thing the gameline is named after.
Logan Harris
40k came later, let some other nerd worry about it!
Levi Gomez
The name doesn't have to refer to a literal weapon. You call the fantasy game "Bow of the Prophet", or something kitschy like that, then you make "Bow of the Prophet 40K" but this time the eponymous bow refers to what the space marines are called (individuals are "arrows"), or they have bow shaped starships or whatever.
Jaxon Bailey
40k doesn't even have the titular "warhammer". There ARE Thunderhammers, but they aren't THE Hammer. There's no "Warhammer" In 40k, 40k is just Warhammer in the year 40k.
Meanwhile, there is a Warhammer in Warhammer - the Warhammer Ghal Maraz
Joshua Watson
Bow shaped starships is pretty badass.
Dominic Wood
Isn't that the Necrons' thing?
Noah Sullivan
no Necron ships are Croissant shaped
Lucas Powell
>Space Marines are the "arrows" of the Padishah-Emperor, raining from above to strike at the enemies of mankind
Brayden Williams
>Padishah-Emperor Yeah, thanks for reminding me we went full circle with references here.
Levi Nguyen
>mfw it just now clicked for me Padishah Emperor was a historical title >mfw Sardukaar were Jannisaries >mfw Paul was Muhammad >MFW absolutely none of this actually occurred to me until this moment and I read Dune when I was a teenager aaaaa AAAAAAA
Wouldn't something like a "Prophet-King" be more fitting with the theme of (presumably) turning the Imperium into a space caliphate instead of space Vatican?
Also, I know you're going to call this bait (it's not), but what about making the space marines/space mujahedin explosive? Part of the fun GW had was taking stereotypes back in the 80's that nowadays would seem outrageously offensive and implementing them in such a way that it was clear they legitimately thought some of them were cool. So, holy shaheed suicide bombers -> space mujahedin have an implant that goes off like a nuke when they need it to. Imagine what a spectacular ending that could be to all those heroic last stands. The space mujaheddin get swarmed by not-tyranids... then bam, the cleansing flame of the Prophet-King takes them all.
Jack Moore
>mfw Sardukaar were Jannisaries >mfw Paul was Muhammad Well it just clicked for me now too
Austin Lewis
>have an implant that goes off like a nuke when they need it to
WRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Julian Sanchez
>Wouldn't something like a "Prophet-King" be more fitting with the theme of (presumably) turning the Imperium into a space caliphate instead of space Vatican? If we're talking historically, there really isn't an equivalent to the Vatican for the Middle East. The ruler and "head of the religion" were pretty synonymous, with his piety backed up by supportive religious authorities. Though I could be talking out of my ass because I only have a surface level knowledge
Ayden Jackson
True, didn't think about it. I guess it's better for lone operatives than people who might be fighting in battalions.
Brayden Johnson
That's what I meant. The Emperor would be more of a Muhammad like figure than a Jesus. Horus would be his son, leading a schism based on some kind of internal religious disagreement.
James Long
this is somewhat accurate because 1. Islam has never been very unified, sectarian split began almost as soon as Muhammad was dead - over who his successor was, in fact, and 2. Until recently, it was tradition that the Clergy would not take part in civic government as it was felt it would pollute/corrupt the spiritual realm with worldly concerns. Imams were meant to be spiritual and moral advisors who offered guidance to rulers, but the actual high ranking church people would not be synonymous with the state. It was one of those unwritten sort of rules.
Obviously, it got broken eventually *coughIrancough*
Jaxon Foster
[surprised shrieking]
Brayden Ortiz
I-I mean I KNEW Paul's religion was always a metaphor for Islam it was kind of hard to miss with the whole JIHAD and the desert dwelling fanatics but holy shit I never got that the Landsraad and the Padishah Emperor were Turkey/The Byzantine Empire and Paul was the rise of Islam
Carter Bell
Wasn't it all practically spelled out in the books? Is that really that much of a revelation?
Austin Martin
I didn't know jack shit about Muhammadans when I read it Still don't but I didn't then either.
Cooper Bailey
>the Landsraad and the Padishah Emperor were Turkey/The Byzantine Empire You mean Persia/Byzantine Empire because title of Padishah Emperor combines both of their rulers at the same time
Tyler Collins
Like I said, I got the Jihad part but I legit thought Padishah emperor was a made up title
Nolan Perry
>but the actual high ranking church people would not be synonymous with the state Late era Ottoman Empire also had to outright depower the ulama politically, socially and institutionally to even attempt to get modernization going. For 40k, they'd probably be the stand-in for the Ecclesiarchy.
I knew Paul was meant to be a Muhammed-esque figure, but all these historical references (Janissaries, Byzantines) just never occurred to me,
Jonathan Stewart
So... in Muslimhammer 40K, would the Mechanicus be Jewish dhimmis? The mistrusted, secretive not-quite-foreigners-but-not-quite-part-of-society religious group that creates all the technological advancements people begrudgingly use?
Joseph Sanders
Mamluks. They're perfect for vampires too - their ruling class are apex warriors that actively recruit.
Logan Smith
>would the Mechanicus be Jewish dhimmis Mechanicus would be scholars collecting and preserving pieces of not!Persian and not!Greek scientific knowledge of ancient times
Connor Sanchez
Weren't those Jewish dhimmis (except in astronomy and medicine, which they were all over for some reason)?
John Morgan
>Weren't those Jewish dhimmis Were they?
Jack Miller
I was gonna suggest the Sassanids, but, Mamluks... some sort of, former slave caste that sought ascendancy via vampirism to seize control?
Their Vlad figure is an ancient right hand man of some ancient Emperor who feels the Empire is his right because he was there man, he knew the Emperor, they fought in 'nam together?
Aiden Peterson
>Their Vlad figure Why do you look for Vlad somewhere else when you can just use Transylvania for Sylvania?
Hudson Carter
>Mamluks
There's your Blood Dragon equivilants
Ryan Hill
I'm not sure I understand the question.
Brayden Russell
Like we said, it's more geographically accurate but it doesn't follow the setting rule of leaving the relations between factions intact. Transylvania isn't a historical part of Turkey (no matter how much the Turks would've liked that)
Carson Gray
>In the Middle Ages, the Mamlukes took up the practice of furusiyya "chivalry", although Mamluk knights were slaves until their service ended. The Arabic term for a knight was fāris (plural fursān), The faris and the notion of furusiyya originated in pre-Muslim Persian brotherhoods. Within the Muslim world, the fursān became prized as ideal warriors.
>The fursān – whether free like Usama ibn Munqidh or enslaved professional warriors such as the ghilman and mamluks – were trained in the use of various weapons such as the sword, spear, lance, javelin, mace, bow and arrow, and tabarzin or "saddle ax". (The Mamluk bodyguards known as the tabardariyyah.) They were also trained in wrestling, and their martial skills were honed first on foot as piéton and then perfected when as mounted warriors.[15] They were popularly used as heavy knightly cavalry by a number of different Islamic kingdoms and empires, including the Ayyubid dynasty and the Ottoman Empire.
>pre muslim Persia >Persia
THE PERSIANS ARE VAMPIRES
Alexander Perez
I'm not sure either if it was Jewish dhimmis. Got it?
Jack Fisher
They're already Bretonnians. So this is more Mousillon than Sylvania.
Adrian Sullivan
It seems like a fair bet, the Jews had a tendency to do that wherever they went. They have a lot of flaws but they did manage to maintain near universal literacy throughout their entire history, unlike almost any other culture. It's a lot of help when it comes to preserving knowledge.
Brayden Nelson
>Brettonia >Persia Why not the Egyptians?
Jeremiah Hernandez
Wew friend. I'm a muslim but I don't want to ruin a good thread. Please forgive me if I incite a shit storm.
In Islam, there is no separation between state and religion. Muhammad was at various points, a goat herder, trader, insurgent leader, city leader, general (he actually fought in battles and was wounded, at one point was protected by female nurses who took up arms as the final line of defence), and statesman in addition to prophethood. In order to rule in a just manner, you obligately need to be pious. All laws refer to the Quran the same way you guys refer to the Constitution now.
Regarding, the schisms, before his death, Muhammad chose Abu Bakar, his trusted Companion as his wordly successor. There were some camps who thought, Ali (Muhammad's cousin and son in law) should be the caliph instead, due to the family relations. This camp eventually became the Shiah sect.
However, in Islam, there is no formal priesthood. It was specifically banned by Muhammad to avoid the centralization and accumulation of power and wealth seen in the Catholic church. Anyone can become a clergy provided you are learned (which led to the Al-Azhar university giving out the 1st modern uni degree) but you get no other extra worldly benefits and you can marry etc.
I hope I did not ruin the thread, but just to clarify some points. Thank you.
Mason Gomez
Plus, if you make the machanicus jews you can have them refer to robots as "golems", machine spirits as "gilgulim" and viruses as "dybbuks", which is pretty balls.
Dylan Hughes
>Transylvania isn't a historical part of Turkey You can just play with the story of Vlad's brother who was literal buttbuddy for Sultan. Being a vassal or client state of an empire is as good as being one of its parts.
Lucas Evans
>metaphor for Islam It was called Buddislam and was preached from Orange Catholic Bible.
Tyler Gomez
not at all, truth usually makes for much more interesting fiction. If that makes sense.
It's better to have a basis on real facts for your made up fantasy stories, it tends to result in something more nuanced and authentic than when it's based on parroted misconceptions. Case in point, Legend of the Five Rings, which is basically ruined for me by the blatant inaccuracies
Even assuming your fiction is based on cliches and stereotypes like Warhammer is supposed to be, start with the genuine thing and then warp it from there.
Ethan Ross
>the kabbalistic transcendence through the sephiroth into unity with god is manifested in the transcendence of flesh through cybernetics >the sacred science of gematria looks for the hidden connections between the lines of code >the tefilin is a literal antenna that connects to the machine god
Jason Hall
>unlike almost any other culture Yet unlike other cultures they don't convert and don't accept fresh blood from the outside. Admechs are centered around core idea, not their origin.
Xavier Jenkins
>Buddhism
Now THERE'S an idea. We could make the Brettonians some kind of Buddhists, and their "Knights" are wandering Wuxia heroes?
Youxia I believe they're called
Ryan Powell
>humanity's quest for unity with the machine god began with the initial sin of biting from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, recorded in the most ancient archives from 40,000 years ago in occult sigils
Caleb Davis
>We could make the Brettonians some kind of Buddhists Hindus are closer geographically if you want.
Julian Wilson
Those are already not-Lizardmen Monkeymen though
Ryder Sanders
Could this be a time for... Greco-Buddhist Bactria!?
Jackson Thompson
True, but there are a lot of ways of interpreting that idea. I think if you go with the Jewish metaphor (I personally like it for the golems thing), you focus more on the desire for ever greater perfection within the individual, rather than perfection of the whole. The perfection of the universe (Tikkun Ollam) will follow naturally once people find perfection in unity with god, a concept that exists in the kabbalah.
So in this version, the mechanicus equivalents are highly insular and don't receive converts lightly (or maybe they only recruit from their own planets, where genealogies are meticulously recorded over millennia to direct their "perfected" evolution towards ever greater compatibility with the machine), but are even more immortal and contemplative than the magi of the imperium.
Henry Thomas
You know that still doesn't solve the issue of Jews not accepting Muhammad equivalent as their prophet which lead him to bloodshed in our timeline. In 40k it would translate into not!Emperor bombing Admech cities on Mars.
Connor Adams
>not!Emperor God Caliph of Mankind or God Sultan of Mankind?
Hunter Thomas
What about Crimea as Sylvania? The Crimean Khanate looked protection from the Ottomans and were largely independent during quite a lot of time.
Andrew Collins
I thought a large part of the admech’s deal is that they worship the omnissiah instead of the GE, and the entire Imperium would very much LIKE to bomb them if only they weren’t the ones who kept everything working? its actually a pretty good metaphor for the Jewish presence in many of the countries they lived in. Everyone hates them, but by the time you realize it they’re holding the economy together