REMOV WORD BEARER

OP here. I disagree that Lorgar's fall was due to mismanagement. If the Emperor had given other Primarchs information that Lorgar wasn't given, then yes that would be true, but he was given the exact same amount of information that the others were so he's no more tragic because of that.

I guess I see Lorgar as the only fallen Primarch that isn't tragic.
>Horus' free will was subverted in his coma on Davin
>Magnus didn't understand the powers he was playing with
>Fulgrim was trying to live up to impossible standards
>Peturabo wasn't given a fair shot at his own specialty due to timing
>Angron's brain surgery was fucking with him since the beginning
>Mortarion embodied everything he had grown to hate during his childhood
>Curze was mentally unstable and afflicted with nightmarish visions
>Alpharius Omegon was secretly loyal (according to official fluff)

Lorgar was explicitly told not to be religious, not to preach, then did it anyways. He did it anyways from an internal desire, because Lorgar needed it, not for the benefit of others. Contrast this with Magnus who's damning action was of attempted benefit to others, or Horus' who had no control over his own corruption as he was manipulated and lied to while incredibly near death.

I'm not saying that Lorgar is entirely at fault for his situation, but he seemed to be the one who was the most in-control of his own fall

>"The Aristotelian hero is characterized as virtuous but not "eminently good," which suggests a noble or important personage who is upstanding and morally inclined while nonetheless subject to human error. Aristotle's tragic heroes are flawed individuals who commit, without evil intent, great wrongs or injuries that ultimately lead to their misfortune, often followed by tragic realization of the true nature of events that led to this destiny.[3] This means the hero still must be - to some degree - morally grounded."

>"The usual irony in Greek tragedy is that the hero is both extraordinarily capable and highly moral (in the Greek honor-culture sense of being duty-bound to moral expectations), and it is these exact, highly-admirable qualities that lead the hero into tragic circumstances. The tragic hero is snared by his or her own greatness: extraordinary competence, a righteous passion for duty, and (often) the arrogance associated with greatness (hubris)."

Amazing what a brief search on Wikipedia will yield.

All the traitor Primarchs are figures of tragic heroism...yes, Lorgar too.

Can the Emperor can turn off his....I guess you'd call it "sparkly effect" at will, so that others can see him the way his Sisters of Silence see him? If so, he should have done this when he arrived on Colchis and everyone started worshiping him.

Alo, I must point out that Daemon Primarch Lorgar looks as boring as Daemon Primarch Perturabo.

looks million times better than that sad fuck Mortarion

If the Ordo Chronos ever pops back up, they need to go back to M30 with sealed orders for the expeditionary fleet that found Colchis.

DO NOT MAKE CONTACT. FULL EXTERMINATUS OF ALL LIFE IN SYSTEM WILL BE CARRIED OUT ONCE IN ORBITAL BOMBARDMENT RANGE OF SURFACE. NO VARIATION FROM THESE ORDERS IS AUTHORIZED.

Better yet, the Imperial Household fleet, led by the Bucephalus, does the job. Fewer questions.

The XVII stays the Imperial Heralds, everyone stays happy, Erebus and Kor cannot ruin things.

If you mean can he hide his emprahness from people then he can, he did for Vulkan and the people of that planet

Because I like the idea of not!-Satanic 'holy warriors' that deal with daemons and are more interested in the actual worship of the daemonic forces than the dumb petty nonsense of other Legions.

I find this idea interesting and would like to subscribe to this dataslate.

>looks million times better than that sad fuck Mortarion
Most all of the daemon primarchs are pretty boring.

There are similarities between him and Magnus, although I genuinely think the latter did nothing wrong.

The Emperor deciding to treat one of the mightiest warriors in the galaxy and his legion like naughty children is an error he kept repeating. Also saying "You are forbidden from doing this thing because reasons" and not actually explaining to his own sons why not is a dumb thing to do. Ironically it was Lorgar's lack of blind faith in big E that caused him the most problems.

>He enforced ignorance because he was kept ignorant
The Emperor never said he was a god.

Agree 100%

All the Primarchs who fell needn't have, through both the Emperor's neglect and their own choices.

I think that what I said here sums it up the best. The reason you and others are harshest on Lorgar is that Lorgar's moral fragility and failures best reflect what it is to be human. In the Lion, The Wolf or Guilliman you see the traits we imagine we want to be, we see in Lorgar the traits we actually are, and its the familiarity with these things that holds the greatest revulsion. You are wrong with Lorgar, and dont understand the human need for faith. Faith is what gets us through, faith steels our backs, gives us confidence in what we chose is right. Humanity needs faith, just as much as it needs food, shelter and air. Instead of providing Lorgar with a vision and the knowledge as to where it was best to invest that faith the Emperor seethed and sought to remove it from him. Simply finger wagging at someone and telling them not to does not prevent someone from doing, providing them with the knowledge of action and consequence does.

I never said that, I said the Emperor kept Lorgar ignorant, so Lorgar emulated and passed on the ignorance he was taught.

The Emperor simply said "I am not a god" yet he did not explain to Lorgar why he was not a god. He just expected Lorgar and others on faith alone to do as they were told. Words spoken, even by god like figures, need knowledge and evidence to support the statement otherwise people will get it wrong.

>The Emperor simply said "I am not a god" yet he did not explain to Lorgar why he was not a god
You can't prove a negative. Among his brothers Lorgar was the only one retarded enough to worship him

>Simply put however, most of the hate many seem to have on here of Lorgar, is that of all of the Primarchs, he probably has the most in common with many of us fa/tg/uys.

Not at all, and I honestly pity any one who identifies with Lorgar on any level. All the Primarchs are overblown caricatures of a few traits, and Lorgar only encompassed Fantaticism, Ignorance, and being Pathetic.

I hate Lorgar for the same reason his brothers all hated him; he's useless. He does nothing but whinge about wanting to be a priest instead of being a warrior. As one of the Emperor's sons, he's a disgrace. He wasn't privy to all the information so he had to do the exact opposite of what he was ordered to do by his not only his father, but the highest authority he had ever known. You can try to mince words all you want, but it was a stupid and childish reaction by an immature man who cannot accept reality.

Even from a pro-Chaos point of view, he's completely pathetic. Not only was he still overshadowed by the other Primarchs, two of his captains were way more impactful than he ever could have hoped to be. Hell, he even wrote the Lectitio Divinitatus, which was the framework for the Imperial Cult, so good job there buddy.

>The reason you and others are harshest on Lorgar is that Lorgar's moral fragility and failures best reflect what it is to be human.

And this is precisely why he's shit. He doesn't perform on the level of a Primarch despite being one. Were he human, being only human is forgivable. But despite the fact that he was designed to be better than that, Lorgar still manages to find the penultimate way to fail at everything he can.

The Emperor could prove he was not. He could have taken the time with Lorgar (away from Colchisian influences) and explain. Like he did with others. But he was eager for his great crusade to continue and didn't. He had the knowledge if you read the fluff that he wasn't a god, and the knowledge that although Gods existed they were the bane of humanity. The Emperor had the tools, he just didn't use them.

Its amazing to me, that so many people, particularly the feeling I get that you may be an Atheist and therefore against any form of worship (an assumption on my part I know), that you lack the insight into the human condition that simply disproving the existence of god, or the notion that something is god, does not replace the need to have faith, a need for further answers. Many atheists, like the Emperor simply state it is not so, often bluntly and rudely, seeking to remove something from people rather than replace it with another. Then get frustrated when people reject them.

I don't believe in God, or god's myself. But I do understand humanities need for answers which re-assure their own direction and existence. We are creatures of purpose, without it we are lost. Simply saying something is so to remove that sense of purpose without replacing it with another is a sure fire recipe for disaster.

>And this is precisely why he's shit. He doesn't perform on the level of a Primarch despite being one

I am right, that is the reason you despise him.

And the primarchs as it turned out were all to human, every single one. If they were the perfection so many of you want them to be 40k wouldn't be the gigantic fuckup we know and love.

>The Emperor could prove he was not. He could have taken the time with Lorgar (away from Colchisian influences) and explain.
How would he prove it? Even if he told his life story Lorgar would simply think that he reached apotheosis.
>and the knowledge that although Gods existed they were the bane of humanity
But that's the problem with fanatics, they don't care that the gods are evil, if they're gods that's all that matters.
>Simply saying something is so to remove that sense of purpose without replacing it with another is a sure fire recipe for disaster.
But it never happened. Isn't the Emperor ideals not enough? For Dorn and Guilliman it was.
>And the primarchs as it turned out were all to human, every single one. If they were the perfection so many of you want them to be 40k wouldn't be the gigantic fuckup we know and love
They should have some human characteristics, but they should be better than humans too. I mean, what's the point of the primarchs if they're dumber than the average human?

>Most all of the daemon primarchs are pretty boring.
So much this. I really wish they didn't all look so shitty.

>Isn't the Emperor ideals not enough? For Dorn and Guilliman it was.
No, the essence of a good leader and general is knowing how best to make use of and motivate your men. Everyone is different, and going back to my statement that everyone needs purpose, everyone else has different purpose. Some people need more effort than others to train and guide, others need less. Others have different uses, for instance Lorgar was persuasive, and if properly trained as a diplomat then general, along with a very short lead (will get more into this), Lorgar could have conquered empires with honeyed words, saving lives, bullets and resources to be expended elsewhere.

Dorn, Horus, Corax and Guilliman were three you could let off the lead and expect them to do as you'd trained. Perturabo too, his unquestioning following of instruction being his downfall. However other Primarchs, Russ, Curze and Magnus were always specialized and temperamental meaning they needed to be kept close to the Emperor in order to make best use of them. Needing to be kept on a short leash doesn't mean these Primrachs are any less useful, it means they are specialist tools required to do specific things. Letting them go mostly unguided and unsupervised into the great wide galaxy was always going to go wrong.

>He doesn't perform on the level of a Primarch despite being one.

Only if you see Primarch-level performance as trashing things and fucking off to let other people pick up the pieces. Pretty low standard, in my opinion. Takes more effort and skill to make something than to wreck things, and all the Primarchs had the potential for so much more.

Lorgar didn't want to be a killer. He didn't want his whole reason for living to be shackled to war and destruction. He was like Perturabo in that he wanted to build and create, to give human beings lives worth living. But finally, when he finally realized that nobody would accept him as anything else than a tool of war, he decided to fulfill the letter of his father's and brothers' desires by engineering an eternal, immortal conflict.

youtube.com/watch?v=jq76l3ihL-I

>Erebus and Kor cannot ruin things.
>Lorgar never falls
>The XVII never infiltrates the other Legions to corrupt them
>The only Primarch irredeemably corrupted by Chaos is Angron
>there is no Heresy
>the Ordo Chronos is never founded
>Colchis is not destroyed
>Erebus and Kor can ruin things

>Only if you see Primarch-level performance as trashing things and fucking off to let other people pick up the pieces.
Roboute Guilliman and Magnus the Red would fucking beg to differ, especially the former.

The emperor was lying to them. It's as simple as that.

Aesthetics.

Because they kill smurfs

>why do people like Word Bearers?
Some people like evil spiky dudes who summon demons. The word bearers are evil spiky dudes who summon demons.

It wasn't until later that the OH WOE, WE ARE SO TRAGICALLY MISUNDERSTOOD bullshit seeped in, which also has its own audience I guess.

Dunno about in game wise, but to me Lorgar's story mirrored a lot of my fears about raising kids. I mean, I'm not as autistic as the Master of Mankind, and my kids are gonna grow up with their daddy around their whole childhoods, but a lot of the times I fear that if I tell them too much, they'll turn into absolute nihilistic fucks, and if I tell them too little, their trust will flag and a bunch of faggy teenagers will end up controlling my kid's life instead of themselves

If there's one thing we can learn from the Emperor and the Primarchs, it's how to actually raise children, particularly sons.

>I can only imagine how the primarch’s heart shattered when the Pilgrimage ended...
>The Pilgrimage revealed many truths: the flaws written into the Legion’s precious gene-seed; the arcane gestation of Lorgar Aurelian himself; the existence of the neverborn – named as daemons, spirits and angels by a million ignorant generations of mankind. But the greatest truth revealed was also the hardest to accept, and it broke a primarch’s heart...
>I cannot conceive how they endured, being the heralds of such tidings. To be the ones chosen to enlighten an entire species that humanity would struggle from now until the day creation died. There would be no Golden Age, no era of peace and prosperity. In the darkness of the future, there would be only war.

--The First Heretic

>"All I ever wanted was the truth."

...

Best post of the week.

>their trust will flag and a bunch of faggy teenagers will end up controlling my kid's life instead of themselves
Or you can be like me. Who read Atlas Shrugged in high school and took up mises. Teach your children everything. Nihilism is soon to come if they don't discover booty.

The only mystery of the Word Bearers is how to paint them properly.

How many different schemes have they had over the years?

Different user here. You do know Ayn Rand lived on government aid in the last years of her life, right? Don't be so proud of being exposed to her works early in life. She was a contemptible hypocrite, and all the works and ideas of her life are irrevocably tainted by that hypocrisy and ideological weakness. There are infinitely better books to read and thinkers to follow than her. Nietzsche, for one.

Agreed, Rand was a hack who only really speaks to the petty bravado and selfishness of youth. She was a hypocrit who refused to live by the standards she insisted others live by. If people want to read a philosopher who wrote about sensible pragmatism read the works of Machiavelli.

P.S. Nietzsche is also good

>Most all of the daemon primarchs are pretty boring.

total agree on that.

Angron is pretty cool tho.

And Perturabo idea is nice, just not thought through I guess. Or maybe it's just the IWfag in me talking.

Only if you accept the future is fixed and immutable.

If you're going to go with egoistic philosophers, go with Nietzsche, Spinoza, or Stirner.

>unironically supporting Magnus
All he did was wreck the webway project. No biggie.

>muh trooooof

Angron had a pretty legitimate gripe, IMO.

He got fucked pretty hard.

I actually enjoyed The First Heretic. If Emps ever figured that Lorgar had a legitimate foundation for his desire for something to worship, he could have turned Lorgar's energies towards a more wholesome endeavour. Religion isn't just about faith, but also about truth, so I can imagine how Lorgar felt when he realised that there were beings out there that possibly met the definition of godhood, and when he realised Emps wasn't deserving of worship. Like how people criticise the Judeo-Christian God with 'if he's real, and is RAW, then he's not a god worth worshipping'.

>not realizing that writing the Lectitio Divinatus and declaring Big E a god, (despite his explicit demand to not do so) is trolling on a colossal level

>feeling pity for someone who identifies with a person, that tries to convince others of his ideas instead of instantly subjugating or killing them

> thinking Lorgar was overshadowed by his brothers, when he was,the first one that had the courage to break free from the lie the Imperium was built on. More examples: Pulled off a bigger scheme than Alpharius, managed to come up with a plan that brought Horus down and on his new master´s side, and didn´t go mad like Magnus when confronted with the primordial truth of the Warp.

Only thing you bitch about, is that he wasn´t the strongest fighter, while you seem to forget, that he has a bag of tricks on his side, that nobody, including his allies, ever underestimated. The fact that he almost got squatted and rescued a few times, is a thing that others are guilty of too, right? Going by that logic, nobody in the 40k universe is cool enough to deserve your appreciation.

You´re looking for somebody that´s perfect and can´t be beaten.

Diagnosis: WAACfag.

Enjoy your next FW buy, user.

>what is wrong with a cult legion of fanatical satanist Jihadis?

this guy get's it 666%

>All he did was wreck the webway project. No biggie.
>the project he didn't know about
>the project he could've helped with
>the project he would've loved to help with
>which he wrecked to tell his dad about the heresy
>to try to save his dad
In terms of results divorced from intention, Magnus was one of the most destructive primarchs.
But when you factor in intention, he was better than any traitor and arguably some loyalists.

If you read the word bearer trilogy you'd understand that the word bearers have something most traitor legions dont:unity and order. Seriously these mofos are living in event horizon on the faily yet still find time to hold mass and form kinship among fellow worshipers. Their absolute faith in the gods gives them this weird form of structure despite all the chaos backstabbing that goes on. They are the most eloquant jihadists you'll ever meet, and chances are they'll skin you alive while discussing the greater teachings of lorgar.

People keep forgetting sorcery was banned at the Council of Nikaea, and sorcery was what Magnus was using to accidentally fuck up the Webway project.

The Emperor wasn't available through normal psychic methods of communication, so Magnus forced his way in with sorcery.

But there was no one forbidding Lorgar from conquering worlds through diplomacy. The problem was that he insisted in worshipping the Emperor for no reason

As I recall, Monarchia was as much about him moving slowly as it was about religion. So no, I would say there was definitely someone forbidding his brand of peaceful conversion.

And if you do read Nietzsche then make sure to read Jung afterwards as a follow up.

A+

The Word Bearers are really the only "success" story in the entire setting. Lorgar got the letter of pretty much everything he ever wanted in the end, if not the spirit: power, truth, ultimate ideological vindication, gods to worship, his dad being worshipped as a god-figure by almost the whole species, etc. Maybe that's why OP doesn't like them, because being right and being a smug fucker about it can definitely turn people off...and nobody's more fucking smug than religious fanatics (and militant atheists).

The only other traitor Primarch who can be said to have similarly "won" is Curze, despite his victory being almost entirely ideological in nature and coming at the expense of pretty much everything else, including his own life. All the others got played like the saps they were.

No, the main reason was religion.

The Ultramarines used a lot of diplomacy and nobody complained

Fulgrim won too. He wanted to become a daemon and he managed to get it

Big friggin' whoop-de-doo. The four godsworn legions and their Primarchs won only slavery to single facets of the whole Primordial Truth. They are almost completely dominated by their patron Gods, with very little remaining in the way of free will.

>'Lorgar tells us in the eighth chapter of the Admonition to the Belocrine Crusade that “they are contemptible who seek an abdication of the self in subjugation to the transcendent."'

If you go back in time you’ve already been back. You can’t change the past, only the present and future.

Lorgar was right(at first, at least). The Emperor IS a god, even if he denied it. The Emperor and some of the more fedora-tipping primarchs who took the Imperial Truth coolaid(Mortarion springs to mind) were out of touch with humans. Because they themselves were divine beings, they took their transcendent purpose for granted and didn't realize that religion is a necessary part of human existence: humans NEED a transcendent purpose, and what is more, arbitrarily declaring that there is nothing higher than mankind is demonstrably false, just look at the Emperor's powers.

The Word Bearers are appealing, though, because of their fall to irredeemable evil, and the bizarre inversion of Imperial doctrine they now practice. The first ecclesiarch became the first heretic, and basically preaches that Chaos(the evil, corrupt side of human nature) is the path to enlightenment. The Word Bearers brought about the Horus Heresy, and the spread of Chaos in the galaxy: they are one of the main villains of the setting, and they aren't just random edgy Chaos worshipers, they are essentially a twisted form of the Ecclesiarchy, working as a fully operational astartes legion.

They also have an excellent aesthetic. Their focused tactics are very broad in scope due to them being an (evil) monastic order, not a pirate warband. They seem to lean toward combined arms, with emphasis on summoning daemons, raising cults, and possessed. They also have lots of psykers and flame weapons, being a literal fiery legion of hell. Their legion tactics tend to lean towards giving them better morale which kinda sucks, but at least it fits them.

Their big drawback in the lore is their commanders are retarded. Great at summoning daemons and giving inspiring oratory, but terrible tactics and one bad decision after another.

>The Emperor never said he was a god.

No, he's just a being with godlike power who can speak to people across the galaxy at will and built his empire with religious trappings, and who is also canonically capable of killing any one single Chaos God (which is why they hate and fear him so much that they band together to fight him, because it's the only way they guarantee their survival), AS WELL as the fact that praying to the guy can give you magic powers that help you repel literal Demons simply by believing hard enough in him.

Can't see why people could possibly believe there MAY be something divine about the guy.

>arbitrarily declaring that there is nothing higher than mankind is demonstrably false, just look at the Emperor's powers.
Ah, but there's the rub: the Emperor is (in the 40kverse, anyway) the pinnacle of humanity. In his endgame, EVERY human would have his powers; he'd be one among a trillion equals.

>they are essentially a twisted form of the Ecclesiarchy, working as a fully operational astartes legion.
>They also have an excellent aesthetic.
Agreed. My absolute favorite traitor Legion is the Thousand Sons, but I quite like the Word Bearers too, and for those reasons.

This thread made me think of a passage from the beginning of the old MtG book for Apocalypse:

>'Sisay leaned forward and laid hands on the tome's new pages. Her fingers gently caressed them. Her eyes roved the images---she saw a man, no, a god, enwrapped in thought as in cloud. The god's brow was rumpled, his long hair wild about his head, and his face cast in deep shadow. An eerie, mad light shone in his buglike eyes. The whole image would have been very disturbing, rendered in turbid strokes of black, except for one bounding column of light whirling into being from the man's brow. It was another man, formed out of thought alone. He was a hope, a savior.'

>'"This is Gerrard," said, Karn, "born from the mind of Urza Planeswalker. For centuries, Urza strove to create the perfect creature to inherit his perfect machine: the Legacy. He made the Metathran, though they were too dependent on orders. He turned next to humans and made creatures the likes of Crovax, and even yourself, Sisay...He was very near perfection with you and Crovax---perhaps too near. You each have a pure heart---which can be as easily made pure evil."'

Urza's character and mindset were actually scarily close to that of the Emperor, if any of you were into MtG and remember. Thus, Lorgar turned out like Urza's creation Crovax: a hero who fell to utter evil after a series of tragic events. Lorgar was the purest-hearted Primarch, possessed of his Father's faith in Mankind's goodness and hope for Man's transcendence. But innocence is all too easily corrupted, and hope is the first step on the road to disappointment...

Iron warriors are OK. At least you can understand their motivations. To a point.

Because Eliphas was a straight up G

m.youtube.com/watch?v=lRlYSE6kWAg

Lorgar is the most successful Primarch for sure. He got what he wanted, the Emperor's kingdom ground to dust, and now gets to chill as a daemon prince as the Imperium practices what he was originally scolded for.

Chaos is feeding off this long decline quite well

>I'm genuinely curious, why do people like Word Bearers?

When I want to play an evil bastard, I like to play the most evil bastards.

Its the same reason I play Dark Eldar.

>Word Bearer Commander's suck

You got that right.

>Be Dark Apostle
>Gloriously subvert Imperials on planet and unleash the warp
>Bring millions to the worship of the Dark Gods
>Get beaten by the Imperial counterattack because you are only on day five of your eight day sermon and won't let it be interrupted

Lorgar really is the big winner of 40k, isn't he? It feels weird to realise that, but I can get behind it.

Makes me excited to think about what Daemon Lorgar'll be doing fluffwise when they give him a tabletop model and bring him out of his seclusion on Sicarus. If they didn't already have Be'lakor, I'd say he could play a fairly similar role as the 40K One Who Crowns Conquerors.

Don't hold your breath. I doubt they'll ever let Lorgar be anything great ever again. They're too committed to making him a shitty woobie.

They already had him lead a crusade that fucked shit up in 8th edition

What I wouldn't give to see demon primarchs designed by Poots.

This would make a nice 40k novel, especially if it ended like .

He will act like utterly retarded autist and then job to some random space marine