Wizards is now requiring all tournament organizers and retailers that are part...

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Wizards is now requiring all tournament organizers and retailers that are part of WPN to perform background checks on all their staff. This is also required for events like FNMs at gaming stores, Grand Prix, and Pro Tours.
People are complaining that this is going too far and stores are barely able to make ends meet as it is without having to worry about the added costs of background checks.
Did they make the right call?

All urls found in this thread:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsstaat
https://company.wizards.com/article/news/making-magic-spaces-safer
https://magic.wizards.com/en/content/suspended-dci-memberships
SniperGod
SniperGod

@Crazy_Nice
If this is about the pedophile thing, then the billion dollar company should be footing the bill on background checks for people in their program

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Crazy_Nice
This is literally impossible to enforce. Also, shifting the costs of background checks to the stores is dickish in the extreme. Sure, the intent is good, but there's no way they can or will enforce this. It's a PR thing only.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

It appears USA is not a 'rechtsstaat', where the juridical system would exist to make the country safer for everyone. Actually, it appears USA does not have a justice system, but instead a revenge system.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsstaat

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

good idea, but wotc should pay for it.

MPmaster
MPmaster

They're digging themselves deeper into the "judges are volunteers, not employees" hole

Spamalot
Spamalot

Have you considered suicide lately op?

girlDog
girlDog

@SniperGod
This. Background checks make sense for any event involving a lot of people, they should certainly be mandatory for any involving minors. But Wizards should be footing the bill.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@MPmaster
That's the party line and by God are they gonna run it into the ground, no matter how retarded it is. Dammit, I used to like WotC, but the last few years have really soured me on them as a company over shit like this. Acknowledge your judges as part-time employees, they work insanely hard and deserve to be recognized.

girlDog
girlDog

@New_Cliche
Sure, the intent is good, but there's no way they can or will enforce this. It's a PR thing only.
https://company.wizards.com/article/news/making-magic-spaces-safer
We have a zero-tolerance policy. Sex offenders have no place in the Magic community.
As part of our commitment to safe and inclusive spaces, tournament organizers and retailers will be explicitly required to conduct background checks for all staff (as permitted by applicable law). This includes CFB Events' Grand Prix, local store events like Friday Night Magic, and professional events like the Pro Tour and World Magic Cup as well as convention play run by Wizards.
The mention of zero tolerance and explicitly required makes it seem like more than PR talk.
They better be fitting the bill on this if they're that serious.
@MPmaster
They want judges to be upheld to the highest standards and yet won't employ them.
Something's gotta give.

askme
askme

@New_Cliche
shifting the costs of background checks to the stores is dickish in the extreme. Sure, the intent is good, but there's no way they can or will enforce this. It's a PR thing only.

This. Shit ain't free, honky

Methnerd
Methnerd

@girlDog
They better be fitting the bill on this if they're that serious.
Footing the bill, user.

farquit
farquit

So when do the background checks on players begin?

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

Hire your fucking judges WotC you cheap shmucks.

Evilember
Evilember

@SniperGod
aye

eGremlin
eGremlin

@farquit
the only events I attend to are pre-releases
if WotC pays for my background check I have no fucking issue of having to take one IF the event I'm at will have kids around
my LGS holds pre-releases morning, afternoon, evening, and night. I attend to the nightly events precisely because I don't want to be around kids
if WotC demands I get a fucking background check to hang out with other 20-30 somethings dudes late at night they can go fuck themselves

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@MPmaster
I think it's a combination of greed and fear of a lawsuit. Imagine if judges were considered some form of WotC contractor and even 1 kid was diddled by a judge who wasn't background checked. WotC would go out of business and Hasbro would have to pick up the pieces of the shit company they only wanted in the first place so that they could make a Dungeons and Dragons cinematic universe.

I think physical card games for the 18+ crowd are ded anyways. Everyone I know who still collects Magic cards is just a turbo autist who checks card prices 10,000 times a day to see if the card they're hoarding went up a penny or not. Nobody actually plays for fun like we did 15 years ago. It's just this sad, sad institution my friends like to call "MtG Finance." I don't know anyone who's made a penny from it except for one LGS owner who screws kids who sell their collections to him.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Crazy_Nice

tfw you cheat dumbasss teenagers who have no idea they are being sharked
they bet cash on a game under the table, one guy will bet me bars (valued at $3 each, resale for $10)
the only time i've been asked to leave or otherwise interacted with the staff besides buying cards is lighting a smoke in the middle of a lengthy duel

tfw sex offenders, alt-right memes and yu-gi-oh players (they are fucking scum) have made so much static that i get to live anime

This shit is great. All I have to do is say "whoah sex offenders what the fuck? not cool" and everybody is going to look around for chester the molester. If anyone isn't fleecing people at their LGS now is the time to start - gambling is not going to be the "it" concern for MTG for a long time.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@Crazy_Nice

Yes they did.

The banning of Jeremy was not made so he would uncover even a bigger scandal (that mtg is full of pedophiles) They fucked up big time as a company.

Wizards is trying to kill LGSs and neckbeards anyways, but I wonder how they'll keep the "official" events thing going if they drive the volunteers away and dont want to hire people

WebTool
WebTool

@w8t4u

Wise advice

TechHater
TechHater

@lostmypassword
19 posts in? that's a new record!

idontknow
idontknow

@lostmypassword
Jeremy
hopefully, that nigger can go back to talking about games instead of bitching about drama and how the professor fills his fat, rotten asshole with his beta male semen

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

This all strikes me as kind of silly. If I was a pedo it would just mean that I go and play at events rather than judge

As for stores having to check their Judges, at least in Australia, background checks for volunteer positions are free, so there's that for conventions or majors. As for FNMs, 9 times out of 10 here it just means that one of the staff or owners will be judging anyway.

Evilember
Evilember

@lostmypassword
Everyone pretty much agrees that WotC horrifically underpays employees and they can only find retards and purple hairs with no experience to work there. They were paralyzed and had to tie up Hasbro's lawyers to find them a solution to this problem.

Sprinkles the cosplayer should've been a paid brand ambassador on WotC staff. Jeremy should've been banned immediately (not 6 months later) when he started making le edgy Veeky Forums banter on Twitter about her being a cosplay thot. Judges should be paid and vetted. Cards should not be of a lower physical quality now than they were 25 years ago.

WotC is a poorly run company so some faggot in Wisconsin was able to singlehandedly fuck their shit up. It's pathetic.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@Crazy_Nice
Well some asshole at a pokemon card tournament almost shot the place up, so, yeah.

King_Martha
King_Martha

in a vacuum i think the whole background check stuff is a wise choice no matter who said they should do it. however i do now realise that WOTC is filled with dumbass, greedy CEOs like every other big corporation is filled with either dumbass, geedy CEOs or literal fucking sociopath who probably backstabbed their parents 40 years ago to get ahead.

yes i am exrtremely biased and cynical about big corporations (which is kind of odd considering im very optimistic and idealist in almost every other regards. figures.)

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Evilember
He shouldn’t have been banned at all. She IS a fucking cosplay thot. That’s it.
Jeremy may be an asshole shitlord, but I don’t think anyone should be banned because they said something that hurt someone else’s feelings.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@Garbage Can Lid
As the rulers of the world, the corporate illuminati, I think I should be able to ban anyone for anything I feel like.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Crazy_Nice
So this is how it ends.
It's time for a revolution, a new company.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

@Crazy_Nice
In Australia the employee has to pay for their own 'Working with Children' background check.

TechHater
TechHater

@BlogWobbles

Mind you, in Aus the check is also FREE if you are a volunteer or charity worker rather than an employee also sticks about for two years and can be used anywhere you go after you've got it. Like, for example, my Blue Card would be valid if I wanted to become a Judge for MTG even though I got it because I do IT support for a company that often means physically going on school grounds to install equipment.

I'm not sure if other countries have it be per-job.

Oh that and going by the law, you already needed a Blue Card to be a judge (As you are a volunteer in the area of children's sport and activity recreation), though I'm not sure if it's been enforced before.

So as a whole, in Aus 'You need a blue card' is a comically easy requirement and I doubt it will cause any trouble here.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@TechHater
Its free in Canada if its a volunteer job. I'm not sure if judging counts as volunteer work but if not I think its 25$ other wise.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@Garbage Can Lid
He's an asshole who didn't deserve to be banned for life, and she's a thot who deserved to be paid for her work for wotc just like the judges all do.

Agreed?

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Gigastrength
in Australia, background checks for volunteer positions are free
Who pays for them

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Lord_Tryzalot
What work for WotC did she do?

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@Crazy_Nice
Did they make the right call?
Yes, they want LGS to close.
Wether that's a good idea in the long term for the survival of the game is not clear but it's what the reptilians making the corporate edicts want to happen.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@MPmaster

The government? As part of it's general public safety initiative, since it runs the blue card service?

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Crazy_Nice
What a bunch of dicks. Just hire some official judges already, you cheap fucks.

Techpill
Techpill

@w8t4u
creep betting xanax with teenagers on games lights up a cigarette during a children's card game
whoa dude so anime. everyone at the shop probably thought you were a badass protagonist

FastChef
FastChef

@King_Martha
@w8t4u
holy shit, you're the guy who is head of his high school tabletop club, bitching about how evil religion is in yesterday's cliche thread
what up

iluvmen
iluvmen

There's a reason gun stores have a fee to run your paperwork and background checks even if you're basically just picking up a gun you've already paid for, at least here in America. They'll learn quickly why if they push the costs off on the stores.

hairygrape
hairygrape

@eGremlin
Are you employed by the hosts of the event? Are you judging the event? If you answered no to these questions, you're fine.

WebTool
WebTool

If this was for judge staff that would be fine by me but this new policy also is stated to include all employees for any lgs that wants to host an fnm. Wotc is only showing they have no problem with overstepping the bounds and controlling small businesses through overreaching policy.

Wotc should not be requiring businesses to spend money or worse pawn the cost onto the employees themselves.

The background check should be involved in the enrollment of the wotc judging program and nothing more.

I work at a small store where this new policy if fully implemented will force us to fire a longtime employee because of a mistake he made when he was a kid in college 35 years ago just so we can keep sanctioning so we don’t lose our store. The guy got drunk as a kid and groped a girl he had a crush on who turned out to be a cops kid so he was put through the ringer and tagged for life. The owner has known the guy since even before the fuck yo in high school and is going to be forced to fire one of his oldest most loyal employees because otherwise we lose wotc sanctioning and with that the financial revue mtg and dnd adventure league brings to the store.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

all these SJW shitbags doing damage control for a giant evil corporation which knowingly exposes children to pedophiles

You "people" fucking disgust me. Is there no depth of hypocrisy to which you will not sink?

MPmaster
MPmaster

@BlogWobbles
They didn’t even expose the guy. An independent group did and they reacted.

King_Martha
King_Martha

playing magic in the first place

hairygrape
hairygrape

@King_Martha
This also affects the ability to host dnd adventure league.

Playboyize
Playboyize

@MPmaster
Of course they didn't. They have been knowingly putting registered sex offenders in positions of power over children for decades because they did not want to lose the free labor from people who would never report anything to the government or police.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

@Playboyize
Best to be ahead of that sjw tide of pressure than behind right?

eGremlin
eGremlin

@BlogWobbles
If you have the wrong opinions than you are subhuman

W e w l a d

MPmaster
MPmaster

@eGremlin
If you are a disgusting hypocrite who would defend for political reasons a large group of active pedophiles who have been seeking out contact with children I have strong reservations about your humanity.

takes2long
takes2long

@MPmaster

Look where you are, faggot.
This isn't your liberal shit tumblr/reddit/facebook safesite.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@takes2long
Kill yourself

SniperWish
SniperWish

@Ignoramus
@TechHater
@BlogWobbles
It's free in Sweden, period. Of course, that does lead to every company ever getting background checks for everyone they even consider hiring, just because they can.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@kizzmybutt

Cool response, my friendo.
Did they teach you that at community college?

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Crazy_Nice
WTF?!?!?!?

THEY CAVED TO THE FUCKING NAZIS??!

WHAT THE FUCK BROS?!

girlDog
girlDog

@New_Cliche
YEAH, WE NEED TO GIVE KIDDIE FUCKERS FREE ACCESS TO CHILDREN IN CASUAL EVENTS WHILE ALSO PUTTING THEM IN A POSITION OF POWER WHICH THEY COULD EASILY HOLD OVER YOUNGER PLAYERS!
Shit, wait...

askme
askme

@eGremlin
You don't have to do much at all to qualify as a judge.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

@girlDog

IT WAS TO OPPOSE THE NAZI JEREMY SO IT WAS OK?! ARE YOU A FUCKING PEDOPHOBE?!

farquit
farquit

@lostmypassword
Do i hate people who abused children? Yes
do i hate people who have a romantic and physical attraction to teens, but who are mature enough to know that they would be taking advantage of a person who is at the most vulnerable point of their lives, potentially traumatising them for the rest of ther lives, and therefore allow their attraction to manifest as friendliness and mild flirtation at the worst, doing everything they can to make that young person's life better? No.

Emberburn
Emberburn

@farquit
Splitting some mighty fine hairs right there I tell ya wut.

WebTool
WebTool

@Crazy_Nice
Maybe I'm just cynical, but I can only assume that the intent is to put this off onto their business partners, who will have to ignore it for financial reasons and then point to the fact that the organizer/store was not complying with WotC requirements so that if something happens and someone tries to sue they can displace any liability onto the local store or organizer.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Emberburn
Its the diference between hating rapists and hating people who have romantic relationships. Forcing another person into something that will hurt them is wrong. Thought crimes are an abhorrent concept and to judge someone based on thought alone is petty and pointless. Actions make the man.
T. Aristotle

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@farquit

Look its a pedo.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@WebTool
NICS background checks return results near instantly and cost 20 bucks. Quit yer bitchin, i pay for and submit to a background check at least once every othet month. Its a nonissue. If stores really cant afford it, make the applicant pay for it.

Techpill
Techpill

@MPmaster
So your answer is make minimum wage lgs employees pay for it. Good idea fuck them hourly employees that clean up after your stanky ass just so you can sling cardboard at other neckbeards on Friday nights.

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Crazy_Nice
Some quick googling says that a background check can cost between $10 to $45 per person and how intense you want it to be and an average processing time of 2-4 business days. That poses a serious issue for stores in my opinion. If a store were to hire a someone on Thursday, by these rules they would have to cancel FNM because the background check wouldn't be complete or pay a premium to get it done the next day, which will either see a loss in profits or cost them more money. The same would apply if a background check ended up taking longer than usual. Not to mention that as @MPmaster
points out, the whole legal conundrum of volunteer or employee is pretty difficult in the US and the only way to get an answer currently is through a lawsuit that forces a ruling on it. If WotC expects stores to look after all of the background checks it will be unenforceable, there are just too many small parties that cannot be easily managed, if WotC were to add it as part of becoming a Judge, then it is totally enforceable and the cost can either be a fee for judges or something that Wizards pays.
There are good intentions behind this, it just needs serious refinement.

RumChicken
RumChicken

@WebTool
The flipside is if even a single instance happens after this goes into effect and the people had done all the paperwork involved, it goes to the next level.
The real death of the game/company will be similar to what is going on in hollywood right now. Either wotc comes to its senses and axes all these people, or they will gain even more power and get ballsy. Both avenues will end with (((females))) at wotc accusing (((males))) of sexual misconduct.
We are already seeing ripples of wotc knowing this and taking steps to minimize it. Why did LSV stop working for them to go back to playing? Not because he had a burning desire to play, it was because his affair with another noted magic personality came to light around this time. Wotc didn't want their name attached to something like that.
Companies that operate like this are more concerned with hiding shit than fixing shit, they will eventually hide stuff for so long, and turn their attention to it so fervently, that they will forget the bigger picture. They will continue to make steps like this, follow them. They will eventually push too far and someone will eventually catch a "rape" charge and then its all tinders and kindling after that.

Mark my words.

FastChef
FastChef

I don't play Magic but I find it hilarious that this could have all been avoided if they had been a little less SJW and told some attention whore to go stuff it. Women are the ruiner of empires.

Lunatick
Lunatick

@FastChef
If you don't play Magic and you don't know what is going on why are you here you stupid faggot?

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@BinaryMan
dear aristotle
shit floats when you throw it in water sometimes
sincerely
t. a faggot whos not retarded

idontknow
idontknow

@Garbage Can Lid
Fuck you diogenes.

Evilember
Evilember

@Lunatick
I'm here for the drama, senpai. And I have an idea of what's going on. Not perfect, but I've seen the threads here and elsewhere in the nerdsphere.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

Did someone get molested or something?

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@Techpill
so poor you cant spend twenty bucks on a background check
profits so low you cant afford to spend twenty bucks diring the hiring process
How the fuck does the applicant have shoes on? How the fuck can the store even afford to keep the doors open? Are you retarded?

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

@Methnerd
@RumChicken
Dont hire someone on thursday and tell them to work the next day? Have you fucks never had a job before?

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

Doesn't really matter anyways. I give it 5 years before MTG is dead in the water tops

SniperGod
SniperGod

@Nude_Bikergirl
Semantics.

One could argue, for example, that the most "just" system would be one that redistributes criminal punishment based on rate of solved crimes of that type. A bicycle thief for example would get punished not only for his own crime, but for all those bicycle thieves that do not get caught. This makes the crime itself not viable according to game theory and therefore prevents crime in the first place, which is arguably more just than "righting wrongs".

WebTool
WebTool

@farquit
Try posting a pepe meme on twitter and see for yourself.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

@farquit
They've been in process for a while now, user. Try posting something that goes against the progressive narrative on an account with your real name and see how fast you get targetted.

Nojokur
Nojokur

@SniperGod
fpbp

Booteefool
Booteefool

@Poker_Star
That whole thing about MtG judges demanding money is rippling to other games in a bad way.
Privateer Press ended their similar ambassador program some time ago after the lawsuit. Infinity people are worried about the WarCor program in similar way.

Most people understand what does signing up for "volunteer work" means, although MtG judges have a lot required of them for it.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@SniperGod
get punished not only for his own crime, but for all those bicycle thieves that do not get caught
therefore prevents crime in the first place

What? All this would do is fill up all the prisons as fast as they could build em. That's a shitton of tax money to pay for an army of criminals to be housed and fed by the corrections system.

WebTool
WebTool

@SomethingNew
US uses those inmates as legal slave labour, so it pays them to do that.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

A Working with Children Check in Australia is free for volunteers... No real issue.

Surely something similar exists in US states...

JunkTop
JunkTop

@SniperGod

That sounds like a serious violation of the criminals rights. After all, he's being punished for crimes he didn't commit, rather than just ones he did and punishing an innocent (Relatively speaking, he IS innocent of many of the crimes there) guy is very not just.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

@Booteefool
Why is people getting fairly compensated for their labor bad?

Supergrass
Supergrass

@WebTool
You don't get a return even close to making it worth it from a financial standpoint.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@WebTool
Nigger you're seriously retarded if you think that breaks even cost-wise.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@LuckyDusty

As far as I can tell, in most american states there isn't really such a provision. Which really seems to point at an issue with the working with children check system than what WOTC is trying to do.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Booteefool
To my understanding it all started with a lawsuit in California where some volunteers were honestly being overworked, like 10 hours of work with no breaks and I believe they were trying to secure breaks to eat and go to the bathroom.
@BunnyJinx

It has more to do with how you would classify and define those employees, would they qualify for benefits, and who is responsible for if anything goes very badly
@LuckyDusty
The US does not which is why people are criticizing WoTC for not having thought this shit out enough.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@MPmaster
volunteers being overworked
needing permission from daddy club owner to peepee or poopoo
The actual state of MTG nerds. What the fuck are they going to do, fire you? Just walk the fuck away and if anyone complains just be like "bitch, this is my time not yours" before dipping your balls in their coffee.

TechHater
TechHater

@SomethingNew
All this would do is fill up all the prisons as fast as they could build em
Not every punishment is a prison sentence

@JunkTop
How many right a criminal has and how his rights weigh up against the interests of the judicial system is another entirely arbitrary convention, mate.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

@RavySnake
Most judges are bugmen who only have social contact with MtG players and judges. They'll do whatever is asked of them so they don't get a social death penalty from the store or WotC.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@TechHater
How many right a criminal has and how his rights weigh up against the interests of the judicial system is another entirely arbitrary convention, mate.

So is saying that doing it the aforementioned way is 'Just'.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

@TechHater
Okay when you start handing down fines in line with '(criminals) get punished not only for (their) crime, but for all those that do not get caught' what do you expect will happen? When Jamal gets fined like $200,000 for stealing a bike, what happens when he doesn't pay it? Does he just get a bigger fine?

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@Supergrass
@Harmless_Venom
Strange then that for-profit prisons are so widespread in the states.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@SniperGod
This is exactly the kind of culture that breeds organized crime.
Exemplar punishment is useless, having the highest rate possible of crime prevention and punishment is the only way to improve a society.
If some people don't get punished because they have money, because they know the right people, because the police are incompetent, etc. people don't feel safe and criminals aren't deterred

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@RavySnake
I do not disagree with you, it was a weird as fuck case, was just trying to say how a lot of this shit show got started.
@Harmless_Venom
I thought corruption was one of the major causes

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Harmless_Venom
They get their money from the government.

Inmate
Inmate

@Harmless_Venom
The only people I know of who support for-profit prisons are absolute bootlickers who legitimately want to make misdemeanors a hanging offense.

Left, center, right, no one in the US thinks for-profit prisons work.

SniperGod
SniperGod

@Raving_Cute
I don't know where you live (I'll assume America) but here if you have massive fines you can't pay your shit will get seized and you'll basically have nothing except basic commodities until you pay off your debts. Also, things like mandatory social service are a thing as punishment as well, so most likely he'll end up picking dog shit in the park.

@Fried_Sushi
Absolutely. Arguing about abstract concepts like justice is useless but for a thought exercise. If we wanted to reach a meaningful conclusion we'd have to define the ultimate goal the judicial system is to serve.

@MPmaster
Exemplar punishment is useless
It has no effect on passion-crimes, but afaik it has a determinable effect on premeditated crimes.
having the highest rate possible of crime prevention and punishment is the only way to improve a society
Increasing punishment to make premeditated crime a bad choice game-theoretically IS crime prevention. If you can make 100,000 $through tax fraud and know the fine is a mere 20,000 $ and your chance of getting caught is lower than 20%, of course you'll commit tax fraud. Which is why everybody is doing it.
If some people don't get punished because they have money, because they know the right people, because the police are incompetent, etc. people don't feel safe and criminals aren't deterred
Is assumed that punishment would actually be handed out, so yes obviously. If your justice system is broken outright, no amount of changing policies will fix that.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

@SniperGod
your shit will get seized and you'll basically have nothing except basic commodities

Leading to more crime as those people will just steal shit and rob people.

mandatory social service

Again, what happens when you refuse the mandatory social service?

You're trying to play games here. You want to issue massive punishments for "all those that do not get caught" but don't want to admit that it'll lead to more crime and more expense.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@SniperGod
The most visible faces of drug dealing ever both ended up in prisons bordering inhuman. Drug dealing is still the most popular kind of organized crime in the american continent.
EVERYONE thinks they won't be caught and if you'll be hanged the same for stealing a bike or stealing a plane you might as well go big.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@Fuzzy_Logic
I agree with what you're saying, but refusing mandatory social service ends with you in prison, can't really steal and rob from there.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Fuzzy_Logic
You're trying to play games here.
This. You're literally ignoring human behavior because your autism makes you think of people as game pieces.
Criminals don't obey. And the more draconic you make your police force the more likely are them to partake in corruption themselves.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

@Fuzzy_Logic
If you're such a repeat offender you end up in prison eventually.

You're trying to play games here
Not at all.

don't want to admit that it'll lead to more crime and more expense
No, I outright deny that. The people that keep stealing after getting caught are fucked in the head anyway. All the saner petty thieves who right now steal because it's actually a valid way to gain income would stop doing shit. The compulsive criminals will then get filtered from society when they land in a cell for refusing social service or repeat offences.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Garbage Can Lid
Because drug dealing also has an incredibly low rate of getting caught and a really high pay-out.

Firespawn
Firespawn

This is a massive mistake. It's a costly and intrusive 'solution' for a problem that existed in the imagination of chantrolls.

Moreover, after Judges had their privacy unfairly violated by the misconduct of Jeremy Hambly and his army of shitheads, Wizards is validating that misconduct and passing the costs to LGS and interfering with the lives of volunteers upon whom the game relies.

It was never about children. Jeremy proved that when he doxxed minors for personal satisfaction.

I urge Judges and players to remember WotC negatively for this action. Remember whose side they took in this: It wasn't yours.

Edit: Just to add, WotC I hope you understand you've made things worse for yourself. Nobody who raised this stink will acknowledge your efforts and appreciate it. This won't shut Jeremy up, it will embolden him to try something else. When he's posting pictures of your children on Twitter with the headline "Is Aaron Forsythe abusing his children? I have some important evidence", know that this action helped make that possible.

Edit: Edit: Jeremy has posted my name on his twitter, suggested I'm a pedophile, and his followers are now sending me messages accusing me of being a pedophile and telling me to kill myself. Clearly you people are right and the context of this decision doesn't matter.

I can't believe how extremist peopel can get. How can you possibly be agaisnt the concept fo background check(which yes was not implemented in the optimal way), just because someone you don't like made it an audible issue?

StonedTime
StonedTime

@Gigastrength
I honestly don't know what you were talking about with the "massive punishments to represent all the criminals which weren't caught" system then. You're describing something like what we have right now. (Which still has no impact on dissuading people from committing crimes if you believe criminal psychology studies).

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Gigastrength
Putting people into debt they can't pay off just fills your social services to breaking,

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@Firespawn
edit
This a copy paste from somewhere?

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

@Harmless_Venom
reddit

Methshot
Methshot

@Gigastrength

All the saner petty thieves who right now steal because it's actually a valid way to gain income would stop doing shit.

Not really? A lot of former thieves end up back there because we ex-cons generally don't have very good employment opportunities and this is increasingly becoming a world where people without a good education (Which most former thieves don't tend to have) are already finding employment difficult.

It's not an issue that can be solved purely through the legal system.

TechHater
TechHater

@StonedTime
Which still has no impact on dissuading people from committing crimes if you believe criminal psychology studies
Firstly, I have looked for that topic actually and have yet to find a single study that talks about punishment and pre-meditated criminality in terms of game theory.
Secondly, Psychology in general as a field has massive issues and any study should be taken with an entire bucket of sand.
Thirdly, what studies I found about the deterring crime end up talking about high visibility passion crimes and come to the conclusion that the electric chair won't dissuade murderers, which is blindingly obvious and I agree with.

Our current justice system punishes each crime in a vacuum measured by independent scales that considers your crime and your intentions.

I'm talking about a justice system that also considers how likely it is to get caught for the crime you committed and scales your punishment by that factor to make crime literally "not pay". Right now, one of the biggest deterrents from crime is the social repercussion factor. If you already feel disenfranchised or socially rejected, i.e. like niggers or
@Methshot
, that's not a factor any more and to you turning to crime actually is a viable way to pay your bills. Eliminate that option and you eliminate all the sane thieves.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

@TechHater
It's a viable method until you get caught.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@Stupidasole
Do you know what game theory is?

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Nude_Bikergirl
Sure. Most criminals don't act according to it though.

Inmate
Inmate

@Emberfire
low rate of getting caught
As mentioned above that's the problem to be solved. Not stupid exemplar punishment and the criminalization of society as a whole.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

@MPmaster
That's bullshit. Your chances of getting caught for things like pickpocketing, burglary, drug dealing or minor tax fraud are astronomically low.

Just look up the rate of solved cases in those areas. The people that get caught are the ones that set up massive snowball frauds or try to rob banks.

Methshot
Methshot

@haveahappyday
How unsurprising.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@SniperGod
this

RumChicken
RumChicken

@Deadlyinx
They're not offput by the punishment until they actually get caught though and at that point slamming them with massive fines doesn't actually fix the issue.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Crazy_Nice
So, I see what's his faces plan to get revenge on the company by gas lighting the pedophile thing has paid off. Now they're alienating their consumer base and their limited, LIMITED, retailer chain. All he has to do now is start promoting the ever loving fuck out of a competitor.

Nojokur
Nojokur

Doctor: I'm sorry, but we did everything we could. It seems your hobby has terminal, malignant cancer. Who knows how long it has left.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Inmate
Not stupid exemplar punishment and the criminalization of society as a whole
How is it an criminalisation of society as a whole?
Why is it stupid? Argue your point, please.

@RumChicken
They're not offput by the punishment until they actually get caught
You could have just said you don't understand game theory, m8.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Deadlyinx
You're being autistic again.
The pickpocket becomes a bank robber through opportunity not a risk/reward balance. Consecutive successes in low risk make them believe the system doesn't work and they'll never be caught, not dissuade them from going big. And having someone else punished for their crimes will only embolden them even more.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Illusionz
It isn't much different than gambling and people ruin their lives from that all the time.

farquit
farquit

@BlogWobbles
Stockholm syndrome. Neckbeards are invested in MtG and D&D. Same as some Star Wars fans maintaining that Disney Wars is amazing; they can't admit the problems to themselves.

happy_sad
happy_sad

@Illusionz
Do you have any idea how high the fee for jaywalking would be if you factor in all non-processed jaywalkers?

takes2long
takes2long

@Nojokur
and nothing of value was lost

Techpill
Techpill

@SniperGod
man steals bike
gets executed for stealing every single bike ever

I sure as shit wouldn't steal a bike after that.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

@Garbage Can Lid
The one who is literally autistic here is you. Consecutive successes in low risk lowers the perceived risks of all such acts as a whole. It's LITERALLY a twisted risk/reward understanding. About this there are tons of studies because this is what Casinos and fraudsters use to make money.

@Sir_Gallonhead
Exactly, but getting the people off the streets into the casinos is what the system I propose would try to achieve.

@happy_sad
Pretty high. Do you know how much chewing gum is spit on the street in Singapore? Barely any.

@Techpill
Exactly.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Techpill

...man, how many stolen bikes actually Do get solved, case-wise? I can't think of a single person who's lost a bike and the police have found it. That one guy who gets caught in the act by a patrol car is fucked.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@Techpill
If you kill everyone crime can't happen anymore.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@BinaryMan
Putting more people into social services doesn't help.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

@BinaryMan
twisted
Keyword.
Criminals don't work under normal logic.

likme
likme

@JunkTop
I had my bike stolen at college and the police contacted me back when they found it.

They wouldn't give it to me because the thief spray-painted over the rusty spot I mentioned in my report, even though the paint was obviously new and I described everything else accurately without seeing the bike. Cunts.

Methshot
Methshot

@Garbage Can Lid
Post a pic of this cosplay thot

Methnerd
Methnerd

@Need_TLC

I like the way you think!

Snarelure
Snarelure

@Boy_vs_Girl
Unless literally insane they work under perfectly normal logic. It's just they either have wrong input or value it wrong. We can directly influence that by what I'm proposing.

@Harmless_Venom
Why? If you're poor as fuck and angry at society you could steal.
Right now, stealing is actually objectively worth it because the chance of getting caught devalues the punishment so much that stealing is the logically sound option.
If the punishment is so high that you do not want to risk even a low chance of it, you wont steal but rather get a shitty entry level job like normal people.

JunkTop
JunkTop

@Methnerd
blocks your path

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

@Snarelure
Most theft is either an impulse decision or to earn more money for something that can't pay for normally. Higher punishments just means you have people in the system longer costing the taxpayer more.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

@Snarelure

A lot of thieves, especially repeat thieves, WANT an entry level job but can't get it. Weighing up 'Going hungry' and 'Small chance of getting caught' won't matter to a lot of petty crooks as the penalty for not stealing is already very high.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

@PurpleCharger
Stop demonizing criminals, they are just regular retards who make stupid shit, not monsters paragons of illogical behaviour. If the punishment is higher more peopel will refrain from it and if there is no punishment more people will do it. Still think his probability aimed punishment is retarded, but you shouldn't be arguing it on this retarded basis.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Garbage Can Lid
but I don’t think anyone should be banned because they said something that hurt someone else’s feelings.
why do people feel like this is some new thing that WotC has never ever enforced and was never implied in any rules of player conduct?

If you are a fucking dick, you can 100% be banned from WotC events. This isn't the fucking government, this is a private company hosting private events.

Methshot
Methshot

@Evil_kitten
What about that is demonizing them? People still stole when the punishment was losing a hand.

Evilember
Evilember

@kizzmybutt

Yeah, I mean https://magic.wizards.com/en/content/suspended-dci-memberships

There are currently 178 people with suspended DCI memberships.

Flameblow
Flameblow

@Crazy_Nice
Bullshit, they want an entry level job that pays for a new iphone every year.
Literally every single criminal I've met was a complete dumbass when it came to living according to what you can afford.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

@Flameblow
Most I knew would steal shit to pay for a drug habit.

eGremlin
eGremlin

@Methshot
Imagine that sort of thing combined with modern forensic science. Oh wait, the Philippines did, it works.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

@eGremlin
it works
it doesn't

whereismyname
whereismyname

@VisualMaster
That doesn't contradict my statement at all.

Illusionz
Illusionz

@Methshot
Because as i said you are treating them like they are all literally crazy people. Nobody said crime will disappear, just that a greater punishment makes only the most desperate of peopel willing to steal. Do you have any idea how many people steal small stuff just for a petty crave of the moment? Some of those wouldn't if the crime were bigger.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

@Illusionz
It's not outweighed by the increased cost and reduced rehabilitation rates.

Booteefool
Booteefool

@eGremlin

Isn't the Philippines still a much higher crime rate country than a lot with much less draconian laws? Everything I can find lists it as high crime rate.

takes2long
takes2long

@Booteefool
Absolutely. The justice system isn't the only thing you have to fix and it's not magic either. Such shit takes time but it's getting better.

idontknow
idontknow

@Nude_Bikergirl
Then say that, don't argue criminals are crazy and they will do it no matter what.

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Booteefool
The lowered the crime rate by ~14% (something that happened in previous years with law reform and not mass murder) but literally because half the crimes that would be classified as murder are now legal

Flameblow
Flameblow

the guy who runs my FLGS is a convicted sex offender

Well that does not bode well for the only store within 30 miles

SniperGod
SniperGod

@idontknow
I was arguing both points, that there would be criminals who would continue to act and the increased social impact wouldn't be worth it.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@Evil_kitten
You have never experienced want in your life.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

@Illusionz
They sure would.
People commit crime because they think they won't be caught not because they think they can endure the punishment.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

I know this is just the latest is fucking Jeremy Spergbait and now he and his fucking reyarded cronies are going to go on a new "crusade" to save all those poor retailers but here are some facts.

The majority of the eve ts listed are hosted by Wizards directly or CFB, meaning the onus of the check is on them, NOT on retailers. Retailers are only required to run the background check on the judge that heads their events, which in 90% of instances means they will need to run a SINGLE check. If the store isn't checking their actual employees than WotC is well within their rights not to support them with WPN exclusives and I wouldn't support the shop myself, unless you think LGS' should have free pass on being run by pedophiles.

The cost of a Background check in the US is usually, depending on state, 15-25 bucks for what wizards is asking (they make no mention of a particular level so a local county check should be sufficient unless specified elsewhere). This means 90% of stores will be spending a maximum of 25-50 dollars every 3 years or so depending on how often their turn over new judges. There are also no rules here barring LGS'requiring judges pay for their own check, which is a completely legitimate thing to request to allow you to run an event at their store.

Tl;dr it's another fucking Jeremy "Literally Who" Hambly nothingburger. It means literally nothing. The sky is not falling. Stop being autistic retards.

MPmaster
MPmaster

@Supergrass
Neither have you. Just an overblown sense of entitlement and self-importance.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@Nude_Bikergirl
As a store owner myself I want to add to this that if you're not having your employees judge your events you're a blithering mongoloid. This is going to cost me exactly 0 fuckin dollarydoos because I already check my employees like any upstanding busuiness owner and half my staff (anyone who is staffed on a Friday) is at least L1 if not L2.

Inmate
Inmate

@Nude_Bikergirl
t. WOTCshill
eyeing for moving up to a career at Disney?

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

@Nude_Bikergirl
Check out that paranoia.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

@Crazy_Nice
WE DID IT REDDIT

happy_sad
happy_sad

'Making an example" of individual people does notwork. If you make a very specific example of someone it can even backfire, because the more unique you make each caught criminal, the easier it is for other would-be criminals to make an exception of that case when considering if they'll go ahead. Even capital pushment, the most drastic standard punishment, has no demonstrable effect at reducing severe criminal acts.

Fear of unlikely vast punishment is radically ineffective. Fear of certain mild punishment is extremely effective unless the gains are much higher than the cost. If one in a hundred petty thieves gets shot in the head on being caught, the others mostly dismiss it because 'well I won't get caught'. If one in two petty thieves is caught and subject to to just a weekend detention sentence, the more rational class of thief is deterred, - but admittedly the people more in it for the self-destruction and the attention than the gain are not and will not be deterred.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

@Crazy_Nice
There are actual 'people' in this thread opposed to making sure there are no pedos at children's events
Jesus Christ.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

@Poker_Star
You need to understand how easily your mentality can turn into a witch hunt.

askme
askme

If Wizards wants to distance themselves from this, why not just raise the age rating of the game to 16? That way no children should be playing the game in the first place as far as they're concerned.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@New_Cliche
You need to understand how easily your mentality can turn into a witch hunt.
I wish anti-fascists would understand that.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

@New_Cliche
Backgrounds checks are not a 'witch hunt'.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@askme
Ah yes brilliant, let's just take away a reliable revenue stream. Surely that will help us make more money, limiting demographics. No more kids pressuring mommy and daddy to buy them dozens upon dozens of packs. Let's just limit it to the upper teens.

You're fired, user. Pack your things.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

@Lord_Tryzalot
No more kids pressuring mommy and daddy to buy them dozens upon dozens of packs
Stop and think about what you just said considering the amount of 12 year olds that play Call of Duty.

RavySnake
RavySnake

@ZeroReborn
Not ever set of parents are irresponsible retards exposing their children to shit that is fairly inappropriate or buying them anything to shut them up and stop bothering you; likewise some parents are robots doing it out of a manual, which includes following age guidelines.

You're the one who hasn't done any thinking.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

@FastChef
actually im christian and i still believe religion can do a lot of good for the community and the human race in general. also im only one of the reponsibles not pres.

w8t4u
w8t4u

@Lord_Tryzalot
Lol no. She was leeching enough money off of thirsty permavirgins. Now she's in nursing school. Wizards, as awful as they are, didn't owe her shit.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

@Crazy_Nice
Au contraire, it's the basis for the American system. Debt slaves are chained to their jobs.come out of college: (((hey goy, I got a job for ya. I know those loan payments start in a few weeks. It's a starting position so the pay isn't good, you understand))) fast forward 10 years, poor sap is chained to his job trying to pay off an insurmountable debt, hating it but not being able to quit because the entire system told him he needed a $120,000 piece of paper. That's the state of an immense amount of people, and theyre not in prison, but they might as well be.

SniperWish
SniperWish

@RavySnake
Not ever set of parents are irresponsible retards exposing their children to shit that is fairly inappropriate
Are you retarded? Whole generations have grown up with these games from early age on. It's like saying D&D isn't for gamers under 18 because killing is the default mode of conflict resolution which is really inappropriate for minors.
Violence is part modern games, Mr. WOTC Employee.

Supergrass
Supergrass

@Flameblow
How many children are at that place on a regular basis? Guy must be shitting his pants

@New_Cliche
This is a pedo hunt not a witch hunt

iluvmen
iluvmen

@Supergrass
This is a pedo hunt not a witch hunt
Yes and the original witch hunt was one for evil satan worshippers. Who could argue against that? The witch hunt against Jews was for evil conspirators against decent and upstanding aryans. The witch hunt against Nazis we're witnessing these days is for vile and stupid racists who oppress innocent minorities.
Don't you realize that human beings have a tendency to accuse other people (right or wrong) because they get to play Inquisitor and feel good about themselves?
Whenever there is social standing to be gained by fighting against a group of people, you will have copious amounts of the wrongly accused. Human beings just become overzealous and don't take the effort to look closely enough to distinguish.

But Antifa will never understand this. They don't want to.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

@iluvmen
Don't forget the Satanic panic in the 90s, user.

In any case, the issue here to me at least isn't the idea of background checks, but the fact that WotC is imposing this on FLGS and at their expense, despite not actually employing any of these staff. It's a massive overstepping of their boundaries and they're using the stakes as an excuse to gain further influence/control over independent retailers without being questioned.

Nobody wants kids to get diddled except diddlers, but that doesn't mean the methods and precautions exercised are free from criticism/analysis.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

@GoogleCat
$20 isn't the problem, it's the "$20/judge" that ends up causing issues because a) the costs will add up and b) worst case scenario, some events will have to be cancelled to comply to this ruling, which will also eat into potential profits.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

@Crazy_Nice
I agree. Having everyone carry a weapon is a step in the right direction. One would certainly think twice about flipping a table if that could result in being challengeded to a [not Magic] duel or beheaded by a judge at a moment's notice.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

@Crazy_Nice
Wizards is now requiring all tournament organizers and retailers that are part of WPN to perform background checks on all their staff.
I wanna see on WotC website a legally-binding statement listing their employees, designers and board by name and that they have passed background checks and were confirmed to have never been convicted of sex-related crimes.

No? Then fuck off, what business have you got trying to impose rules you yourselves don't want to follow?

Spamalot
Spamalot

@New_Cliche
I work as a teacher. Anyone who works around children on a regular basis has to be background checked.

Pokemon does the same thing.

idontknow
idontknow

@New_Cliche
Would you want a chain smoker working around fireworks?

Skullbone
Skullbone

@Need_TLC
It is when they are forced for sanctioning for the sole purpose of hunting people out. I see more non sex based criminal records losing jobs than what they are actually trying to sniff out.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@Crazy_Nice
Hello Jeremy. Kindly fuck off.

idontknow
idontknow

@Lord_Tryzalot
Satanic Panic was a psyop to get you to ignore the entire idea for a generation. And you did. You let the cult continue operation until today. And when they told you pizzagate was about a single basement you believed them.

Americans aren't people. The shit you're all proudly complicit in is astounding.

Not sure this thread should be autosaged either, but it goes to my general point that Americans would rather let this stuff happen.

takes2long
takes2long

@idontknow
The shit you're all proudly complicit in is astounding.
Literally every country is willing to let its citizens rot so that the elite are allowed to fund their own interests. It's like being proud that your shit pile smells better than someone else's.

Now, please leave the /pol/ shit at the door, it has nothing to do with this conversation.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

@takes2long
Literally every country
...is infiltrated and blackmailed by your CIA. And fuck off with the whining. If you don't want people to contradict your political bullshit don't bring up political bullshit like hurf durf satanic panic.

And you know damn well it has everything to do with the conversation. You're afraid of the repercussion.

TechHater
TechHater

@Skullbone
Background checks should have been mandatory in the first place, just like most jobs working with children.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

@TechHater
Yeah but these are jobs these are volunteer positions. Also the law (in the US) do not require a check when the venue or place of business is a space considered for public access ( which wotc requires for events). Checks are only required if you are in a position to be held liable for a child’s safety in a private environment.

But, I agree for judges they should have been mandatory and at the expense of the judge. It should not be forced on to FLGS’s every single staff member. They are reach beyond the scope of what should be their grasp.

viagrandad
viagrandad

@PackManBrainlure
...is infiltrated and blackmailed by your CIA.
So your country is so weak it can't even defend itself from the "stupid Americans?" Also, how did we convince your politicians to allow refugees to turn the bulk of your cities into danger zones past dusk?

cum2soon
cum2soon

@LuckyDusty
Then the people operating the event are responsible and must enforce background checks. There is no excuse whatsoever.

And it should be forced on every single staff member at the venue, they are going to be around children.

whereismyname
whereismyname

@viagrandad
how did we convince your politicians to allow refugees to turn the bulk of your cities into danger zones past dusk?
Sexual blackmail. Read a book about the CIA you dumb sack of shit. Or stop feigning ignorance of why every alphabet agent in the world must be hanged you glow in the dark nigger. God damn.

Emberfire
Emberfire

@whereismyname
Ah yes, every problem in the world is caused by the USA. It must be hard being stupid.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

@Crazy_Nice
background checks on all their staff.
what is the DC?

whereismyname
whereismyname

@Emberfire
What a stupid strawman. Shame on you and shame on the CIA and Mossad.

cum2soon
cum2soon

@whereismyname
When you've been kicking ass and taking names since 1776 and fixing European problems since WWI, you kinda just get used to winning.

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