What's Veeky Forums's thoughts on all the classes?

>Barbarian
Pretty cool. But the popular class personality is hindered by limited expectations. Most people think they're all just dumb muscle slabs hailing from "the north". Still my favorite of the heavy martials.

>Bard
Fun in theory, not in practice. I don't enjoy them too much

>Cleric
I miss 3.PF melee clerics. Yes I'm one of those guys

>Druid
Never played one. Shapeshifting and summoning were never that interesting to me

>Fighter
The tendies of class selection

>Monk
Never played one. Rarely meet someone else who does. They look complicated

>Paladin
Similar to Barbarian, it's a cool concept gimped by an uncreative popular imagination. Also they attract the absolute worst types of That Guys. Buy if I want to play a martial but I'm not in the mood for a Barb, I go Paladin

>Ranger
Never played one. From what I've seen, I'm better off going rogue whenever I want a light martial.

>Rogue
Kinda fun. Problem is every time I play one I just regret not picking a heavier class.

>Sorcerer
Never played one. Looks a little too limited for my tastes

>Warlock
My favorite caster class. Nice balance between Sorcerer's simplicity and Wizard's variety

>Wizard
Cool but a lot of work. I hate keeping track of spells.

They are amazing so long as you don't get too granular

PF inquisitors are pretty fun.

Jobless people need to get a job, working class, thanks for your hard work, I tip my beanie to you. Middle class people are alright, they actually pay tips after all. Upper class people need to pay their fucking taxes.

Oh what game system were you on about?

They need to be abolished.

I prefer having them over not having them.

Overbloated in 3.PF. From strong archetypes in the old days of D&D which governed many facets of your characters to meta-archetype that have subclasses and subsubclasses, because why not. Absolute retardation.

Once upon a time you played Wizard (with beards and robes). From time to time you could decide to not take the beard, or not take the robes, but it was still a Wizard. Strongly typed archetype.

Now you get to play a Wizard (Illusionist) (Ardent) (Subschool of Death) (Fighter) (Arcane Unforged) (Subschool of the Wind Blade) (Subsubschool of Scroll Theory) (Young Elf) (Twink) (Shota) (Muscle Warrior) (Alternate Spell List) (Half-Demon). What's the archetype here?

>high tier
Rogue
Sylph
Seer
>mid tier
Witch
Knight
Heir
Lord
Prince
>low tier
Maid
Thief
Mage
>shit tier
Page
Bard
Muse

There should only be three.

>Picture of Mage of Heart

>Everyone starts talking D&D classes instead

Move Knight to high tier

Say that to my Eldritch Blast

Aren't Lord and Muse by definition bullshit gestalt classes with the features of like six other classes each?

Class based systems are good for beginners but ultimately are a lazy design and limit the player's creativity to whatever the designers could come up with.

>limit the player's creativity to whatever the designers could come up with.
A subset of infinity can still be infinity.

I
FUCKING
HATE
DRUIDS

Creativity comes from limitation. A class that can do anything and be everything has no point being a class. This is the sad truth of 3.5 and especially Pathfinder, where it was deemed appropriate for every class to have so many possibilities and feats and subclasses they could as well not exist.

The difference between an bloated class and a point-buy system is practically nil. With Pathfinder, you could as well use a point-buy system.

We have attained a fetishistic point in Pathfinder, where the less classes serve a purpose, the more they are wielded into the system. The less classes define a character, the more they are considered indispensable to D&D.

Nowadays you can be a Rogue that can cast spells, and is also a front-line combatant, with only the barest Roguy attributes. This is considered all and well, because classes are limitations, right? And limitations are bad, is it true? But then why bother with classes at all. If you want true freedom, they are but an artifact of the past. They are unnecessary.

Yeah pretty much. But I’m partially ranking them on style of outfit and that cape on Lord is nice.

Shit, I love when the first post in a thread is the only post you need to read.

>conquest paladin
>Effeminate half-elf (male)
>LE. Devoted servant of Bane
>Fear/Smite because you must be broken to rebuild better
>Talks about brotherhood, the honour of service and strength
>Encourages the weak to hate him and become strong enough to beat him when they're ready
>Shouts at monsters to show courage before they break
I'm enjoying him but his new shield is turning him cruel

I would really love to rebut all that, and I will later tonight, but I'm driving to work right now

The opinions of a TRPG noob who's only sessions and campaigns worth mentioning was in 5ed DnD.
Fighter was very boring. Wizards felt too versatile and it was a chore to keep track of spells. The tempest Cleric I'm currently playing is the most fun I've had yet.

>Encourages the weak to hate him and become strong enough to beat him when they're ready

I always like that in a villain/antagonist

I think the 5e rogue, the class itself, delivers reasonable well on the rogue fantasy; it's nimble/mobile, it has stealth and thievery related abilities, good at mundane skills. Mechanically in combat, it is also focused on doing damage, so it has a well defined niche (putting aside how fucking boring it is and, how it's by far not the best at it). The rest of the design lets it down, but it's not a bad rendition of "rougeness" at its core.

The archetypes you mention are just twists that enhance or focus on a particular variation of the ur-Rogue. I don't think their existence is particularly damaging to a class based system, since they are more like dips instead of encroaching on the roles of others, be they mechanical or fluff-wise.

To add to this, Muse is the most passive class possible, and despite being enormously powerful, they can't really do any fucking thing with that power.

If playing 5e and need healing capabilities, you can always import the Scholar (from Cubicle 7's Adventures in Middle Earth) for a nice magic-less bard/healer combination.

Scholar absolutely breaks Hit dice management in half after level... 6? I don't remember, been a while.

Feel free to use it, just be prepared that your characters will never be forced to stop because of risks from low health forcing them to.

So, for starters what you're describing is a problem with bloat, not a problem inherent to either system.

Once we clear that up and compare an uncluttered point-buy to an uncluttered class system, the point buy always provides better flexibility, doesn't have utterly damning trap options (low tier classes), but does require you to synthesize a character concept from the ground up. They're easier to balance, make it easier to make what you want, easier to Homebrew, and easier to learn. The only advantage of class based systems that I've ever seen is that you can, in theory, make a starter-character faster because all the work is done for you on the front-end.

All that said, not all point-buys are better than all class-based systems, in fact the ease of designing a point-buy means there are tons of shitty point-buys out there. However, a good point-buy system is usually leaner, cleaner, and better balanced than an equally well made class-based system.

>Magic Users = Spergs and Neckbeards
>Fighters = Jocks, Meatheads and Normies
>Rogues = 3Edgy6me Underage Teens
>Healers/Clerics = Autistic turbofat Fuckbois who love cock
>Mageknights and dumb shit like that = Weak-willed special snowflakey children that cant even choose between two proficiencies

If you disagree with this list you literally don't know shit about Tabletop

They are also connected to the worst character

>They're easier to balance

Hell no. It's incredibly hard to price multiplicatively powerful options in a way that make sense and don't make the math explode in your face in a build-off.

Almost every single game where balance and team-play is desired, and it isn't being designed by monkeys, goes with some sort of restricted access package based on the type of character/army/whatever archetype you decide to play.

>putting aside how fucking boring it is

You're just not playing the 5e Rogue right, then. I played one from 1st to 14th level and I had a blast the entire time. It was everything I ever wanted out of a Rogue class.

Also, Sneak Attack may be the primary damage option and iconic part of the class, but my experience is that the workhorse feature of the 5e Rogue is Cunning Action, and also Fast Hands and Second-Story Work in the case of a Thief. But mostly the first - the ability to Dash, Disengage, and Hide as a bonus action at will is fantastic.

It's a fun option, but I found the most optimal combat option to hide/fire my bow 99% of the time.

Then SCAG came and I actually had a reason to melee, but that was still just two things I was doing. Improvised actions generally aren't worth giving up the damage for, doubly so when HP scales and damage from things like fires or alchemical items doesn't. I tried to use my bonus action mage hand for all sorts of silly shit, but it explicitly can't do anything really useful in combat; best I got was setting an ogre on fire but as mentioned above, because of how little fire scales it just shrugged it off. Getting the extra mobility or hiding was way better use of my bonus action.

Insult to injury, my familiar outdone me in scouting pretty regularly.

But I'm sure we had this convo at least 3 times already...

Druids are just hippy clerics! Hippy clerics!

Lord/Muse [command/inspire, be paradox/end paradox]
Witch/Heir [change, change with]
Prince/Bard [destroy/suppress, destroy with/invite destruction]
Maid/Sylph [increase/buff, fix/invite fix]
Thief/Rogue [steal/copy, steal with/invite robbery]
Knight/Page [{still in devkit}/arm others, wield with/arm self]
Mage/Seer [know/show, alchemy/prophecy]

Each aspect has a set of symbols which represent it, and each class has two powers that interact with all symbols of their aspect with the same function, the two verbs/actions listed next to the class above. Thus, regardless of what the symbols actually is, if it's a symbol of his aspect, the Prince can destroy it's essence, or use it to cause physical destruction.

what game is this

SKRUB

In my current playtest, the disparities come less from classes, and more from the aspects. Space and Time are still a bit op, no matter how much I try and bring the other classes up to the same level. However I still haven't fixed the knight, and found a first power for him that is both thematic but also comparable to the other classes in terms of function. I'm almost there, I hope.

I've been homebrewing a tabletop version of Homestuck's Sburb for three years now. It's called SKRUB, the Tabletop Creation Myth. I've tried to create an earnest sburb experience, more than simply porting the classpect ideas into an established game can offer. The fully playable alpha version of the game should be released this 4/13

Prince is fun but it gets kinda annoying with all the angels everywhere

Here's a link to the discord, for those interested discord.gg/wqz2EQJ

I'm gonna be completely honest, chances are you'll fail. You ain't the first, though you might be the last.

Also, SBURB was interesting because of the worldbuilding and mystery behind it, exploring it. Somebody who's familiar with Homosuck is going to know most of the details, and thus, that sense of mystery and exploration will not be there.

But, maybe I'm wrong, and you'll do well. Best of luck.

Not him but besides a 3.5 home brew and the group of people who developed the replay value setting, SKRUB has the most promise.

Fuck you Hussie, why couldn’t you actually create functional/workable classes and aspects for fans to actually take and make games with. It’s been years you hack, we still don’t know shit what a Knight of Blood is or any of that crap.

Second worst

That's central to the class and it works as the worst kind of tough love.
>Not strong enough to man the walls when the orcs attack?
>Found hiding in your home with your gf?
>Fear is natural, forgivable. Cowardice is not
>So i'm gonna kick the shit out of you and fuck your gf
>next time I pass through you will stop me from taking her

D&D originally had Fighting Man, Magic-User, and Cleric.
Supplement I added Monk.
Supplement II added Paladin and Thief (with Thief being an unplaytested last-minute addition).
Supplement III added Druid.

Linear Algebra and Differential Equations aren't so bad, but Calculus 4 is proving surprisingly difficult

>shit tier
>bard
depends on the aspect, rage or doom bards are pretty sweet
also move knight to high tier and seer to low tier

Wait was Monk playtested?

SBURB. If you like programming jokes, extremely obscure references or you hate yourself check out Homestuck. Just know you're going to end up disappointed by the end of it, unless you're tumblr filth.

...

Which system?

GREAT TIER
Knight
Heir
Lord
Witch

MEH TIER
Maid
Page
Sylph
Seer
Rogue

SHIT TIER
Thief
Muse
Prince

WACKY AND ZANY TIER
Bard

Bard is a great class to fill many concepts that are not "traveling musician who fellates a flute while he fights". If you can finagle heavy armor on to them they make great evil knights.

>evil
cmon does this darling look evil to you?

It's just an example, but Bards and their abilities lend themselves well to people who have no compunction about lying, intimidating, sweet-talking, mind-controlling, or magically bamboozling other people in order to get what they want.

You've got I and II backwards. Here's are all the classes of the OD&D era:

1974
OD&D published - introduces Fighting-Man, Magic-User and Cleric (plus Dwarves, Elves and Halflings as quasi-classes)

1975
Supplement I, Greyhawk - introduces Thief and Paladin
>(Ranger introduced in "The Strategic Review", issue 2)
Supplement II, Blackmoor, introduces Monk and Assassin

1976
>(Bard introduced in TSR, issue 6)
Supplement III, Eldritch Wizardry (1976), introduces Druid (also psionics, but not yet as a class)

The Rogue and Mage hoodies are the most fashionable of the lot. Fight me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Thanks, my bad.

My Thief point still stands.

jrients.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-dumbest-sword-ever.html

>Now you get to play a Wizard (Illusionist) (Ardent) (Subschool of Death) (Fighter) (Arcane Unforged) (Subschool of the Wind Blade) (Subsubschool of Scroll Theory) (Young Elf) (Twink) (Shota) (Muscle Warrior) (Alternate Spell List) (Half-Demon). What's the archetype here?
That's a really impressive list you pulled out of your ass but it actually stops at Wizard (Illusionist). The archetype is wizard who is good at illusions.

Why does everyone hate Calliope so much? Is it because she's supposed to represent the worst fans of the comic, or because the person Hussie paid to make her artwork is so hated herself? I always found the character very charming. The fact that she's a green, fanged, skull-headed snake alien wearing a nice suit and affecting British mannerisms appeals to me a lot more than her silly "fan" tendencies annoy me.

I think you needed to define which classes you were referring to, sparky.
It seems everybody's talking about DnD, but I know you wanted homestuck.

I recognize their necessity, but wish I could run a classless game without it turning into a rules-lawyering mess that nobody enjoys.

She's charming, but Caliborn is much more interesting as a character and she ended up overstaying her welcome. Her staying pretty much dead would give all the more impact to Caliborn being a total cunt and provide more sorely needed personal stakes against him for the kids.

Depends on aspect.
Prince of Hope and Mage of Doom are the worst combinations in terms of not being screwed over in the long run (one destroys hope, the other creates doom), and having both of them in a session is probably one of the reasons why everything in Homestuck went so bad.

>have a Prince of Doom
>literally mentally unstable Kamina
>win the game

I really like the homestuck class system and I wish there was a good homestuck homebrew.

I’ve got your Prince of Doom right here

A Homestuck homebrew would necessitate pulling systems out your ass and abstracting everything with as little regard for sense or balance as possible. Just like the comic.

Eh, more like Knight of Rage.

True. I just really like the class system and roles. I mean there's nothing stopping me from just dropping classes in another system and having them be a thing. Hell, could easily do it in 5e.

I wanna fuck that Sylph of Blood

Mages are a Know class (like Seers), Maids and Sylphs Create.

I'm pretty sure he would get his own class. I'm thinking he would be a slayer of doom

I see your Edstuck and raise you a much more controversial "stat me."

Well, quite frankly, I think splitting the trolls up when they should have been working together at the beginning really screwed everybody over.
If Sollux didn't have that bifurcation fetish, he wouldn't have played into the trolls' destructive nature. He made his doom, and eventually got slain for stealing a girl.

Oh no, is that JoJo?

Didn't Sollux survive that though? He only died trying to save everyone, and even then it hardly stuck because he's a stubborn fuck.

I always want to play a monk
There are no systems where monks are useful

Legend of the Five Rings?

Legend of the Wulin, GURPS, Unchained Monk from PF.

Nah man, he dead.
He did fly all the way from the dreamworld to stare at his own corpse though.

Huh, I remember him being "half dead" at some point in the story. The green sun isn't part of the dreamworld.

Remember, 40K rules regarding psykers are in effect, so he can space travel.
Either that, or I missed something.
Too bad they didn't send him through the portal Jade opened. He might have helped Jade and John reach the other side of the curtain sooner.

Pathfinder balances them extraordinarily well

I gotta ask, what are some examples of paladins done right in fiction to take inspiration from?

Someone actually notes that the sour spot where the trolls were working together but not being outright ruthless with one another may have contributed to their failures, actually. I think it was Teresa or someone who noted that if they had killed each other more, maybe more quest beds would have seen use and they’d have had more god tiers on the team.

Coincidentally, LotW and GURPS are two of my favorite systems. Honestly though, Unchained Monk puts a bandaid over a bullethole.
Never played that but one of the best games I ever played was with 7th Sea. Is L5R really that good? I may have to look it up.

Caliborn is definitely better and you're right. The thing is everyone (except Caliborn, amazingly) ended up overstaying their welcome, because this shitshow ran for 7 years and Hussie forgot how to write the original cast in 2013.