If a male thinks he is a female why is the correct treatment estrogen therapy and not testosterone therapy?

Its not the sex change that causes suicide. Thats like saying stop therapy because people that do it are depressed...

Why is it degenerate?

Yes it is paid by public healthcare and im not opposed to that if it helps people.

Come on, your main issue with it is that youre disgusted by it and thats your personal opinion but if it helps people or doesnt harm them mentally or physically (i.e. affect their quality of life) beyond the problems they already have then it should be fine. I dont have any statistics but if people find it helpful or atleast if people find it more helpful than therapy then im fine with it.

Im also willing to guess hat he cost of therapy actually isnt that much different

And i think he point is that they want to change into a girl, not more into a man

>Pre- and post-transition suicide rates are the same
>"dude we're helping them"

At least their degenerative behavior is removing them from the gene pool. Thank Darwin for the principle of natural selection.

Suicide rate isnt necessarily the same as well being. Id also be interested to see the rates with other types of interventions

Remember that antidepressants have suicide warnings too

Is there any research that points to transgender men having abnormally low levels of testosterone? I don't think the problem would be that easy to solve.

>method A is an improvement for 99% of the cases but can make it worse for 1% of the patients
>method B does nothing for 100% of the patients
Clearly these are the same

>Why is it degenerate?

seems like a bizarre issue for hollywood and the media to fixate on when we have much more serious problems.

Yeah all im saying is that you have to look deeper than just throwing out isolated statistics... please feel free to give some.

I'm pretty sure a lot are actually just really feminine gay men (who have been shown to have woman-ish brain structures) going into full cope mode

others are genuinely crazy and deeply insecure about themselves to the point that thinking that they can adopt an entirely new character and come out at head mentally and then blow their brains out upon realizing it wasn't the golden ticket to mental stability

At any rate we're starting to tread into dangerous waters as a society once we go from "acceptance" of individual behavior and preferences and starting going into full "celebration" mode of what easily qualified as insanity a couple of decades ago

Huh?

What about homosexuality?

The classification of mental illness is not objective

where did i lose you?

I would like to be treated with:
money-therapy, lopster-therapy, gordon-ramsay restaurand therapy, sports therapy, and vacational therapy. A bit of testosterone and a fair bit of sex therapy would be a nice addon.

Do you actually think antidepressants have a net negative effect on the total patient group?

I'm shocked at this thread, people always use "science" to justify things like this: (See march for science)
I'm surprised you all feel this way. On most boards this would cause shrieking of "gb2/pol/" (which I see more often than actual /pol/ weirdly enough)

Well, after a history of doctors treating mental illnesses the wrong way (remember lobotomies? Remember the guy who invented them got a Nobel prize?) our doctors are now legally pussified and instead of acting they must instead ask the mentally ill patient what he wants to do.

Thank psychologists and psychiatrists for being so fucking incompetent in the past century. And also thank this century's psychologists for being too scared of labeling gender dysphoria as the mental disease it is and treating it like that.

Just wasnt sure why you brought up hollywood

have a certain sexual preference is totally different from believing you are of the opposite sex and forcing others to play along with your disconnected view of reality.

No, my point was skepticism when antidepressant packets give you a warning.

Are u suggesting psychiatrists in the 1940s knew best? Lobotomies can do tremendous damage to people.

Even if u labeled it a mental illness, whats wrong with treating it with a sex change? Also why do you think it is a mental illness?

i suppose they're a part of the media, so excuse the redundancy.

Of course not

I draw the line at thinking you're another gender and playing dress up to fit what you think that gender "is"

in fact that sounds a little crazier to me than schizophrenia or depression which are both classified as such

My point is that decades ago homosexuality was considered a mental illness and still is today. Forcing people to play around? What are they forcing you to do? And im sure most will acknowledge that they had a sex change and were born whatever sex. Tbh i dont see why people shd bother getting worked up about it if gender (not sex) is a social construct. Let people do what they want.

That's a shitty point, almost nothing has a 100% success rate. Even surgery kills people.
It's an even weirder point when you try to defend a practice with 0% success rate

>Let people do what they want.
i'm not stopping anyone. i just find it incredibly bizarre and slightly disturbing.

Why do you draw he line is? Do you think mental illnesses are concrete constructs? If you read the dsm youll see that whata is emphasized about mental illness is failure to function. We dont call schizophrenia or depression mental illness because they are just different. Alot of it has to do with jow it affects a persons life.

So are you saying they can function just fine without medical intervention? (hormone therapy or surgery)

Then that should take treatment completely off the table

If you need treatment you are sick

Sex change is the treatment. The priority is to improve someones quality of life, not so they conform to a standard..

>We dont call schizophrenia or depression mental illness because they are just different
That's semantics, they are still mental health issues which benefit from psychiatric/psychological treatment. The fact that worse conditions exist doesn't change that.

My point was they clearly arent functioning without treatment

Im an athiest and i still think we should gas the trannies. Your point is moot.

>whats wrong with treating it with a sex change?
Because if suicide rates remain the same then it isn't treating them, you're indulging a mental illness.

>let people do what they want
let pedophiles fuck kids my man

I said nothing about worst conditions and if thy benefit from treatment thats precisely my point about failure to function but the idea is to change the persons own assessment of their life (given it doesnt harm others). Its not to change some label.

I suppose that is where I am drawing the line. They are not functioning normally, they are beset with a serious delusion that needs treatment to reconcile.

Sex is objective and it's looking like "gender" is the vague human construct, if they are decoupled why do you arbitrarily think "Gender X" needs Y amount of sexual hormone? It's kind of crazy.

Obviosly i mean aslong as it doesnt harm others which it doesnt.

Suicide rates isnt all the data is it. Show me the data on wellbeing etc and show me the data from other treatments to compare. This was my point about the antidepressants. Using one statistic out of context to justify something. I said before therapy and psychiatric help probably costs as much as surgery etc. If the efficacy of each is the same then theres no preference and if suicide rates arent worse?

Preach

Why should it need to be changed if it harms no one else? Thats my point about mental illness. Somehing shouldnt be treated for their mentally ill cause of delusion, its cause the delusion is harmful. Otherwise where do you draw the line on letting people do what they want. Will dissidents become mentally ill like in soviet russia? And i made the point because if it helps let them do it and that i assume alot of people oppose it not just because of the sex change but the gender change. People dont like drag queens either and im assuming when people feel like a girl then thats gender talking as well. If the surgery helps with it then fine.

>gender (not sex) is a social construct

ones gender is the same as their sex. that's what gender means.

I was arguing more for why it's pretty obviously a mental illness in comparison to a sexual preference like homosexuality. As far as why limit it if it's "fine", in single payer systems someone is paying for your operation (given you aren't a net tax contributor).

>It's kind of crazy.
That's an understatement. This is at the level of giving anorexics a liposuction, recommending amputations for BIIDs, steroids for muscle dysmorphia, cyanide pills for depressed people, matches for pyromaniacs, ...

>improve someones quality of life
Talkin' about that daily dilation you have to do because every cell in your body disagrees with your identity and wants to repair itself?

No sex is biologocal, gender is social. I.e. sex is dicks and tits, gender is behaviour. Someone who grew up pretending to be girl so well that know one ever knew. Sex boy, gender is like a girl. In public life its behaviour that largely distinguishes a boy and a girl

Yeah, I don't get the negative polemics usually thrown at trans people. It's one thing to want to understand it, and generally one mustn't have a bias when doing so... But to just attack them incessantly seems like a waste of time. Account for it scientifically, without calling them retarded. There are explanations to be found that carry with themselves no necessary deviation towards right or wrong.

So what, im paying for other operations too.

Its not because if u give an anorexic liposuction you might kill them

Sex is the lake gender is the mist. Gender norms are not divorced from biological sex they do not fall out of the sky.

A biological description of whats happening in the body isnt the same as a consensus by a person and others on how happy they are

then define gender. what meaning does it have? because i've always thought it meant your sex.

But their relation is context dependent or gender norms would be universal

You're entitled to that opinion, others can be entitled to not being happy with it if they don't deem it necessary

wouldn't be a problem in a wholly free market system

Of course it harms others. Unless trannies live in the woods, they're members of society promoting degeneracy. I hate that /pol/ has taken the meaning out of this word but it is undeniable.

I can't show you data because no one has collected such data, probably partly due to discrepancy between how liberals perceive transgender people and how doctors perceive them and also because what's happening currently didn't exist 50 years ago.

You know what's a good sign of well-being? Not killing yourself.

The point is why are they discriminating against it. In a public health service, there should be no discrimination

I hate when people say
>they only kill themselves because they get harrassed/verbally assaulted by so and so
I don't hear about dicklets or manlets or obese or fucking hideous people kill themselves at the tranny rate

or even autists.

But why is it degenerate. Your agument is circular

I actually bet there is some data..

In depression studies theres an argument about types of rumination that have uneven relationships with depression and suicide. Youll have to give more data. Especially wellbeing data. Need to know why it happens too.

Also even without that there is no pre or post difference as was said up there. Give more data

autists are the powerhouse of the society and they know it all too well

lol, if only.

Where did God write that if the public passes single payer they should have to subsidize everything?

It's so horribly subjective that it is well within the grounds of societal decision. If you don't want to be subject to the whims of society don't be dependent on them, or at least minimize dependence.

I don't think hormone treatment is necessary and I think it's feeding into delusion. People should still be free to make whatever decision they want as long as it only affects them. I don't think you understand that it doesn't only affect them in that context.

Some depression treatmenr studies have found negligible differences in suicide rate with treatment

i'm fine with them getting hormone therapy. it still wouldn't cost us anywhere near what some other diseases cost.

it is annoying to hear about them every other day as if we don't have better things to talk about, and like we don't have our own problems.

It only affects other people badly because you have a prior belief that its bad. Circular. You dont seem to understand your fallacy.

Im sorry i dont think it is that subjective. Healthcare service to treat healthcare including mental health problems. I dont see why there should be an exemption on trans people. Its your personal opinion that they shouldnt change gender but thats not enough to warrant discrimination plus look at it this way.

If therapy and gender change had same cost and same efficacy, what would your opinion be?

>Are u suggesting psychiatrists in the 1940s knew best? Lobotomies can do tremendous damage to people.

No, that is my point. Because psychiatrists in the past were so fucking incompetent nowadays they have to ask the mentally ill what they want to do instead of acting themselves.

>whats wrong with treating it with a sex change?

So if someone starts believing they are an attack helicopter should be surgically implant rocket launchers on their armpits?

>Also why do you think it is a mental illness?
Because they are a tiny percent of the population who show abnormal psychological behavior (it is not normal for a man to think he is a woman, just see stats) and this abnormal behavior ends up hurting them by making them kill themselves. Even trans people who transition end up killing themselves.

but trans acceptance is the new mission from god that so many SJWs and the media have decided to take up, so i guess we'll be hearing about their bathroom, hormone, and pronoun plights for the foreseeable future.

You can't say my argument is circular because morality isn't a property of nature, we are the ones defining it. To say the structure of a society is arbitrary is incredibly naive. Also, I'm a bit curious myself, how come all of this is happening this suddenly? Not all transgender people get surgery so medical advancement shouldn't be the reason. Is it just blown out of proportion?

I don't have any other data though, sadly. I'm not sure how one would go about collecting data from them. Ask people that are transitioning if they're happy?

>I draw the line at thinking you're another gender

This is the science board? The term is "sex." "Gender" refers to cultural phenomenon regarding sexual expression.

Youre not even paying that much for healthcare.

Plus why are delusions bad. Tell me that? Isnt believing in god also a delusion?

The real issue here is that youre a libertarian

>so i guess we'll be hearing about their bathroom, hormone, and pronoun plights for the foreseeable future.

Only if you jackasses keep making a big deal out of it. I literally know one trans person and his condition isn't disruptive to anyone but people like you who are terrified at any shock to your conception of sexuality.

you're the ones making a big deal out of it.

this is the dumbest fucking argument ever, just shut the fuck up already. do you even know why antidepressants have those warnings? do you understand what they do chemically, or how psychiatrists choose a particular drug for a patient?

Statistical abnormality isnt the right way to define a mental illness. Hey lets treat all the statistically rare bolivian immigrants.

And you know you can give absurd examples of everything which can be argued against if we go indepth but lets not do that about attack helicopters pleasr

Yes we do define it but philosophy for the last 500 years has looked at sound reasoning to justify morality. You are the one being arbitrary by letting social norm define your morality when an is shouldnt be n ought

Whats my argument?

And i do know what hey do chemically and i understand that half the time psychiatrists dont have a clue and work on anecdotes. The data on how antidepressants affect different people is extremely sparse and underdetermined

People with Bipolar disorder have a higher suicide rate than trannies. Even more than Schizophrenia.