Why do people claim to be atheists in the West? They were all raised on Christian moral value systems and abide by them. They take these morals for granted, and believe they would act identically if they had been born in another part of the world.
Why do atheists believe that moral values are rationally determined, rather than entirely environmental?
Nathan Campbell
... because just because a Christian helped build the boat I'm on, doesn't mean I'm also a Christian. What a stupid question.
Asher Jenkins
I dont know, man, but "christian" moral values have existed since the greeks. It has nothing involved with religion.
Dominic Bennett
Except your thought patterns are that very 'boat'.
Wyatt Hernandez
>It has nothing involved with religion. I have a few magic words. Nationalism. Did it start holocaust.exe yet? Christianity. Starts a similar inhibitor program to prevent thought, doesn't it?
Jackson Mitchell
Clarify, you either just woke up or your too tired to write.
Wyatt Brooks
Except for the relevant bits.
Cooper Baker
>"christian" moral values have existed since the greeks. Have you ever even read anything by or about the Greeks?
Hudson Mitchell
Yeah, they seem to talk about fucking young boys almost as much as Christians do in practice.
Colton Rivera
Kek
Zachary Hughes
Fucking socrates talked about being good regardless of the consequences and living a virtuos ascetic lifestyle filled with piety in the form of wisdom and you're telling me he was a christian?
Jason Bell
>Why do atheists believe that moral values are rationally determined, rather than entirely environmental? Why do you believe that atheists believe that?
Evan Campbell
>Clarify, you either just woke up I did, kek. Oh well. My point was that certain key words hinder thought these days since we have been programmed to associate horrid things with what used to be central, neutral or positive in our societies. Nationalism will instantly bring Hitler and the nazis and the holocaust to mind. Certainly, this program has had some inflation. Same thing is happening with Christianity. Religion and Christianity have the same association.
Do not assume that you are objective, here. Just see the reaction to socialism, bolshevism, nationalism. Then rank them based on how 'spicy' they are. Then rank the facts.
Would we even remember Socrates if it wasn't for Christians? I mean, we have very little knowledge of the bronze age civilizations, aside from Egypt. If it wasn't for Byzantium and Vatican we would not know much about Rome and Greeks.
Of course, Christianity has included in it the notion that morality is a human quality. The problem is that you aren't replacing Christianity with anything.
Bentley Bell
>Why do people claim to be atheists in the West? Either daddy issues or mere lack of intelligence.
Luke Long
>Would we even remember Socrates if it wasn't for Christians? I don't know, but it's not relevant.
Noah Baker
>I don't know, but it's not relevant. There need to be role models that went against sophistry. Christianity elevated all such figures. Without protestants, you wouldn't even be able to read.
Isaiah Young
Full butterfly effect, without LaVeyan Satanism you would never have been born. Does that make you a Satanist? No, because that's straight up retarded.
Chase Carter
Yeah maybe these claims had something to do with his theism, hmmmmm?
>ithout LaVeyan Satanism you would never have been born. Wrong continent to have an effect.
The ability to read and the spread of literacy was due to competition in piety between the protestants and the Catholics. Romans, Greeks and those prior did not value the common man enough to have them read. Congratulations to them on this one, plebeians should have remained dumb. Where do you think all those fedoras were spawned from? Noble lineages? Kek.
Nolan Brooks
Not that user, but this reasoning makes you unable to criticize any historical agency.
Isaac Robinson
Start with the Illiad.
Parker Lewis
>without LaVeyan Satanism you would never have been born
This is just false though. LaVeyan Satanism had nothing to do with his birth. What he said is at least sensical. It was these ideals that allowed you the opportunity to be exposed to certain thoughts.
Sorry if you don't know shit about Socrates. But hey thanks senpai ^^
Henry Miller
>Wrong continent to have an effect. ... no? What's your point, anyway? Without Mesopotamian culture and religion, Christianity would never have existed. Does that mean that all Christians are culturally Mesopotamian? No. The cause isn't the effect.
Ryder Cruz
Relevant.
Camden Carter
>Without Mesopotamian culture and religion, Christianity would never have existed. Does this mean you have to reject Mesopotamian culture due to hatred of the Crusades or any other meme?
Luis Barnes
>ad hominem - the quote
Nolan Brown
Does atheism imply, indicate, vindicate or demand a necessity to be good, or to remain human?
Ayden Wright
The Mesopotamian Crusades? What are you on about?
Isaac Morales
Being human necessitates being human.
Asher Martinez
Now you are just pretending to be stupid.
Romans had trained rape animals in their circus. Greeks and Romans molested boys. Christian morality is the reason it is banned.
Grayson Roberts
Anything goes, then. Guess the quote was spot on. You are just as human as any of the bolsheviks, the only difference is that you lack the courage or the push.
Wyatt Taylor
If the only thing keeping you from killing your neighbor and raping his wife is the belief that, if you do so, you're going to be in a world of hurt after you die--you're the inhumane sociopath.
Benjamin Jackson
There are plenty of Christians who behave immorally. Or are you going to tell me that they're not really Christian? This is some next level no-true-scotsman bullshit. >If you are moral, you are christian, if you are immoral, you are not, regardless of your belief system.
Joshua Reyes
>mfw Christianity and being a cultural Christian is cool with the kids again
niggas, you are such scenesters. go through your aesthetic cycles, just be a bit more private. both atheists and theist are making fools of themselves in these pleb threads
Cameron Hill
Up.
Isaiah Collins
Christianity is just Platonism for the masses. t. Neecha
Jaxon Cook
no.
not our little brothers and our sons and daughters
Zachary Evans
>There are plenty of Christians who behave immorally. That's not the point. Everybody acts immorally and morally. Christianity offers a framework to look at it and act upon it. Atheism doesn't.
Asher Long
>Atheism doesn't
It doesn't claim to offer one. You are clinically retarded, yes?
Aaron Hughes
By "good" Socrates meant something entirely else than altruism. He valued virtue, which for the Greeks is mainly honour, courage, intelligence and pride. Just look at Socrates' favorite student, Alcibiades. Not a shred of altruism in that guy.
Dylan Ortiz
If christian morals at one point in history were introduced, they can be replaced as well.
This happens gradually, sure. And I for one don't much like the new values of efficiency an utility that atheism is introducing, but it IS happening, whether you like it or not.
All we can do is hope something better comes along.
Jonathan Nelson
>It doesn't claim to offer one. This is kind of my point. You have no standards set by your world view. Just contemporary ones. You reduce your interactive and moral nature to the whims of others. Hence the likelihood of aberrations on your part.
There are no rules for you. Why should anyone trust you? Because you'll wear a mask and wield a banner of "I'll behave, I promise." - is that it?
Cameron Moore
>If christian morals at one point in history were introduced, they can be replaced as well. Yes, new age, islam, crazy ideologies (National socialism, socialism, capitalism etc.). What a grave.
Oliver Nguyen
wew lad. You really are retarded.
I am a cultural Christian. I am interested in Christian mythology and find great wealth in its ethics. I also have various other frameworks by which I navigate ethics.
I'm just not a theist. Really, are you retarded muh man?
Nicholas Walker
Atheism is just lack of belief in God. it says nothing about a person's values that they're an atheist, except that they don't believe in God.
Benjamin Cook
>I am a cultural Christian. I know. Most westerners are. It means you work within a flawed Christian framework for the time being. So did the Russians. Then came bolshevism, a judaic framework.
What makes you stick to it? Whatever reason it is for you, it might not be for the next guy. Unless you are completely controlled, your group of atheists is fairly unreliable. When there is no law, opportunism wins. It's no surprise that crime rules the areas in Sweden where police don't go, right? Same thing. You're just too pacified to act on it.
Matthew Scott
It means that they have no reason to stick to their values, other than as a potential strategy to get to their goal, whatever it may be.
Luis Cooper
There is no Christian law. Theistic Christians are just as susceptible to opportunism as I am.
Daniel Watson
Wrong. If they remain Christian, they can not adapt opportunism as a strategy. They simply can not, as it goes against the concept.
It'll become an empty claim. Like I would claim to be a Scotsman.
Benjamin James
>Christians can do bad things meme Nice ad hominem, you fucking retard.
Joseph Martinez
The irony of your no true Scotsman fallacy is kekelicious. It amazes me how you fail to see it
Charles Phillips
Let's say that I commit a false flag operation under Scottish banner, does it make me Scottish or not?
You don't understand the no true scotsman fallacy or you do not understand Christianity. Probably both.
Hunter Hernandez
>There is no Christian law.
Yes there is, and it has often been implemented by the state.
Josiah Miller
How is it an ad hominem? I, as a cultural Christian subscribe to the same moral framework as theistic Christians and the manner in which I act in the world is informed by the same things
Logan Wright
Kek. Coming from a man whose religion is the most hypocrite in history. See the conquest of americas for example,and practically doing the contrary of what jesus preached. And dont start with muh interpretations
Anthony Foster
Right now you're trying to change the definition of Christianity from "Someone who believes in Christian theology" to "Someone who never wavers from the example Jesus set and behaves in an entirely selfless and morally upright manner at all times".
Even in the context of the Christian framework, that's fucking retarded. The idea of sin and man's inability to live a sin free life is the core of your entire religion. You have clearly completely failed to grasp the key teachings of your own religion.
Josiah Phillips
For now, but when push comes to shove, will you stick to them or will you change them to suit your needs?
Yugoslavia shows that you'll probably go the way of Christians if it happens, but there is a possibility that an ideology lures you. Just like it lured SJWs.
Josiah Sanders
By what framework do you judge hypocrisy, if not the Christian one?
David Harris
my dude, you need to stay off the internet. You're thinking in memes
Adrian Lewis
weak b8
Ian Ward
No, it was an attempt to get you to understand.
> The idea of sin and man's inability to live a sin free life is the core of your entire religion. Yes. That, however, does not mean that a man must live by sin. Such as opportunism. Instead we should be opportunists in quelling those desires within us. If you are ruled by sin, you can not be a Christian. Sin as a way of life is automatic disqualification.
Or is everybody at all times a Christian?
Caleb Hall
So let me get this straight. You want the state to enforce laws that mirror your view of Christian morality? Christian Sharia? As retarded as that may be, you do realise that it's still possible for me to obey those laws, identify with the Christian ethics that gave birth to them and still be an atheist
Leo Morgan
It's true though. I remember hearing about a theory that basically said when humanity gained sentience, we realized just how fragile and weak we were and collectively went insane to cope with it.
Whenever I see stuff like that pic from theists I get closer to this viewpoint.
Ethan Martin
> you do realise that it's still possible for me to obey those laws, identify with the Christian ethics that gave birth to them and still be an atheist You can mimic. >You want the state to enforce laws that mirror your view of Christian morality? I want it to not go against morality. >Christian Sharia? I don't think that Christian law would work as state law, simply because we would have to have massive apparatus to see the thoughts of men. Instead, as a value framework it is excellent, and the state should not diminish the importance of it.
Eli Anderson
Not again with this meme >only christianity can make you not want to be a hypocrite Actually you are the most hypocrite. Dont you see there is a problem here in terms of what actually happens vs theory?
Jordan Thomas
Sorry it was for
Julian Gonzalez
It is a legitimate question to those who do not value truth. Why should they care about hypocrisy if they renounce a system that has it as the highest evil?
Kevin Allen
To all atheists here.
I want you to be sincere with the answers, but I am smart enough to know better.
>What is the value of truth in relation to the alternatives? >Why do anything?
Jaxson Sanchez
>you can mimic So by declaring myself agnostic as to the origins of the universe and the interventionist capabilities of a creator, if deism were to be true, somehow makes me more of a mime of Christian morality than theistic Christians?
Elijah Ward
If you miss the metaphysical backing of any of those things, you miss the point of them. Hence why you would make for yet another ape in that banana ladder test.
Daniel Howard
Whats worth is your system if then you dont act upon it? >highest evil You got to be kidding me
This means that being a hypocrite doesnt depend so much on religion,because if it did depended you would be less hypocrite
Elijah Evans
Let us assume that Christianity is the most hypocritical religion. Then let us assume that Christianity claims to disdain hypocrisy. Then let us assume Christianity is false. Why go against it?
Jace Diaz
>What is the value of truth in relation to the alternatives? It's our best descriptive effort for the seeming chaos that surrounds us. The alternative would render our surroundings as that - mere chaos and suffering would be the ethos of humanity. >Why do anything? I don't know. I personally prefer it to inaction and the struggle causes less suffering to me and those around me. It's also the only way in which I can alter my states and hopefully grow.
Josiah Nguyen
Explain them to me then. I don't see why I, as a non-theistic Christian would be more of a mime of Christian morality than theists.
Thomas Murphy
>It's our best descriptive effort for the seeming chaos that surrounds us. Alright. I would ask why does it need describing or effort next. >The alternative would render our surroundings as that - mere chaos and suffering would be the ethos of humanity. Are you sure? Fanatical religions tend to have higher birth rates, and at least a certain level of paranoia has been useful for survival. They are not necessarily based on reality.
Lincoln Torres
Christianity is just a repackaging of its pagan precursors, and its been modified to death over the last 2000 years. Todsys atheists are about as christian as todays christians, relative to what the faith was when it started.
Anthony Phillips
Because its false even if it was false but made people less hypocritical it would be ok. So the point is that you were attacking atheism whem you are not looking at yourselfs
John Davis
Why be the image of God if God does not exist? You can see it in architecture. It merely mimics human civilization these days. Even now, you probably do not claim to hold authority to judge this change. No, it is just these times and an arbitrary change.
To us it is a horrible thing that goes against man and God alike.
Secondly, Logos is God. I do not know how you can claim to be non-theistic if you admit Christian tenants.
Asher Phillips
>Alright. I would ask why does it need describing or effort next. I told you why. Because the alternative is chaos. Maybe you could direct me to where I need to make myself more clear. >Are you sure? Fanatical religions tend to have higher birth rates, and at least a certain level of paranoia has been useful for survival. They are not necessarily based on reality. Well, I take it you are suggesting that fanatical religions are the alternative. I think they are too seekers of truth, they're just not very good at it.
Charles Fisher
>Because its false Why doesn't that stop socialists (for example)? Why does it stop you (or does it)?
Tyler Taylor
>Because the alternative is chaos. What is wrong with chaos and why? As far as I'm concerned, chaos is very interesting and even beautiful.
>Well, I take it you are suggesting that fanatical religions are the alternative. They certainly are an alternative, and by outbreeding you, they will shape the future more than you will. Is this good or is this bad?
Jackson Robinson
>What is wrong with chaos and why? As far as I'm concerned, chaos is very interesting and even beautiful. We need a narrative for the sake of predictability and survival. This is why we conceptualised truth. >They certainly are an alternative, and by outbreeding you, they will shape the future more than you will. Is this good or is this bad? Well, it depends on what you define as fanatical religions. But I'd generally be inclined to say it's bad.
I'm curious as to why you're conversing with me about these things? What would you like to find out about an atheist like myself?
Leo Butler
>We need a narrative for the sake of predictability and survival. How many children do you have, and is it in any way related to your world view or not?
Ryder Richardson
>I'm curious as to why you're conversing with me about these things? What would you like to find out about an atheist like myself You claim to be rational, logical. Then you claim that there is no reason for existence. Then you stop - which is logical and rational from thereon. I just want to know why you'd want to drag others with you.
Andrew Russell
Stop what? From being an hypocrite? An irrational belief that being a hypocrite is wrong(yes based on feelings)
Benjamin Miller
>How many children do you have, and is it in any way related to your world view or not? I don't, but I'd like some in the future, provided I have the confidence that I have something good to offer. I'm working on it. >You claim to be rational, logical. Then you claim that there is no reason for existence. Then you stop - which is logical and rational from thereon. I just want to know why you'd want to drag others with you. I don't know if there is a reason for existence. I honestly don't think you do either. You might believe there is and that's fine. The 'finding my own reason' meme is good enough for me for now.
I don't want to drag anyone with me.
Christopher Foster
>An irrational belief that being a hypocrite is wrong(yes based on feelings) A whim. The reason people hit each other is because of whimsical feelings like that.
If that is all there is to it, why not assume another attitude altogether? One where wrongdoing is merely a cold shower.
Carter Gray
>I don't want to drag anyone with me. Probably true as you're on the minority that talks about these things. There is a whole group out there that lives the valuelessness, and it shows.
My unforgiving nature tends to show in these threads.
Jeremiah Barnes
OP is absolutely correct and not a single post in this thread has correctly argued otherwise.
Benjamin King
>Probably true as you're on the minority that talks about these things. There is a whole group out there that lives the valuelessness, and it shows.
I agree, but I would argue that the lure of nihilism isn't actively enforced by atheism. It would be more palatable to atheists, I can see that, but that is just incidental.
>My unforgiving nature tends to show in these threads. Well, I hope this conversation made you a bit more forgiving.
Cameron Foster
>Why be the image of God if God does not exist? I don't know whether God exists. I am agnostic with regards to that. I claim to want to emulate the image of Christ, because he is one of the most heroic figures to me.
> I do not know how you can claim to be non-theistic if you admit Christian tenants.
It's because you won't have me. And it would be hypocritical of you if you did. I do not believe in God.
Jaxon Reyes
There is no such thing as Christian morality. Do you not understand what morality is. Doing something to avoid the punishment of burning in hell is not the same as doing something for the right reasons. Christians always seem to act on the most unchristian ways and then go on about people without god having no morals. I have morals but I also have an education so the idea of god is ridiculous to me. Sorry
Isaiah Young
It is not purely arbitrary. It is based on how we evolved. Other animals have a sense of morality. Nobody can be 100%nihilistic (if that would be the rational conclusion of atheism) because we are not rational beings (for example point a gun to the head of a friend and everybody would be begging for mercy)