>"SPQR by Mary Beard is a fantastic introduction to Rome."
>"Mary Beard is a respected academic of Roman history, what's the problem? "
>"excellent response. Mary Beard is a professor of classics at cambridge, and I have seen, several times on this board, the "red pill" response that women cannot be historians, and that the study of social history is "sjw". I am not averse to dismissing popular female authors as producers of pap for the undiscriminating female popular readership, but the dismissal of ideas and academics based on inverse identity politics is poison to informed discussion, and usually made by individuals who refuse to argue their position from anymore more than a drive-by greentext, like yourself, faggot. "
womemes, not even once twitter.com/wmarybeard for more nonsensical female "intellectual" gems
Anthony Johnson
the book was alright desu
idk what made her write this nonsensical tweet
Michael Davis
are you sure she isn't right?
Jose Rogers
I am sure there was less than one nigger in roman britain.
Aiden Bailey
Can it all just be fucking over with. Just fucking nuke us instead of this long drawn-out process of decline and fall.
Blake Cruz
pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty sure
Ian Bennett
Women jump on social capital faster than a new dick..
Actually they usually jump on dick for social capital.
Writing this tweet was like jumping on a new dick
Gabriel Brooks
there were non whites in rome, but making the centurion guy in the pic black because of it is stupid
it's like making an anglo saxon chieftain black because a black skeleton was found in germany somehow It makes no sense, it's a clear PC political statement about diversity and race mixing, and that's the point
basically we were ALWAYS race mixing and diverse, so nothing is wrong today
Eli Parker
>In Greek mythology man was punished for stealing/appropriating the fire given to them by Prometheus by creating Pandora i.e. women. Women opened a fucking vase (fuck you Erasmus) which basically introduced all the evils unto the world >In the Bible a woman can't fucking obey God and causes the Fall
Any other mythology stories that can validate my lack of success with women and my increasing misogyny?
In all seriousness though, wtf is Mary Beard thinking.
Sebastian Collins
cultural marxism surely is getting around a lot these days.
Justin Campbell
BASED fat bald Arab man
Jonathan Hernandez
also, the point was that BBC tried to push the black man + white woman family as a typical roman family, which is what they were implying
I don't see why anyone would actually assume that was correct, even the most stupid of laymen, let alone an academic
Nathaniel Bell
...
Aaron Peterson
She's right though. York had a lot of North African Romans.
It's like America/those raised on the internet get upset Europe might have discovered African people before the US came up with the idea of black people.
Carter Walker
>basically we were ALWAYS race mixing and diverse, so nothing is wrong today this is the reality. the evidence speaks for itself.
Mason Carter
>he thinks the shilling ends at "typical Roman family"
If you only knew how bad things really were
Julian Allen
>Tampons, pads, and ironclads: Stonewall Jackson and Freebleeding >Einstein contra Bergson: Who rapes me more by having existed? Holy fuck i'm crying
Oliver Nguyen
yeah man, europeans have always lived with blacks and mixed with them, and black guys always married women all the way up to britan and scandinavia!....
...that is why they wouldn't even believe blacks were human when they first encountered them and actually thought they were beastly and stupid...because you know, that's what happens after millennia of living together with them and mixing
Justin Young
North Africans were whiter than Italians or Greeks, you mongoloid mental retard.
Picrelated: the left dude is a Lybian.
Adrian Morgan
It wouldn't be strange. Septimus is mixed because of that. Even Caesar mentions the recruitment of a large set of North African "hybridae" by Labienus. It's kind of impossible to have a Mediterranean empire without blacks.
Nathaniel Wood
classical and pre-history society is not the same as middle-ages/early-mod society. you think culture or history is a linear line? the arabs had to bring classicism back into europe after ancient languages died out.
Ayden Lee
>whites and blacks haven't lived alongside one another since the literal stone age
umm try again sweetie
Adrian Green
>Even Caesar mentions the recruitment of a large set of North African "hybridae" by Labienus. Isn't Caesar referring to the post-Hellenistic people who were half Greek and half Semitic?
Josiah Sanchez
North Africans were whiter than Italians or Greeks, you mongoloid mental retard.
See here:
Christian Morris
>he hasn't read Homer >he hadn't read Caesar So when Homer describes Eurbyrates, what he actually meant to say was white skinned and straight haired? Gotcha, I'll let my local association for the blind know.
Lucas Bell
>the arabs had to bring classicism back into europe after ancient languages died out. Nice meme. Not true, by the way.
Hudson Green
Ancient languages never died out. In fact, the Arabs had to hire Greek-speaking Byzantines to translate classical works for them into Arabic.
Also the only reason why Western Europe had no access to classical learning in the first place was Islamic piracy, which made travel and communication between the two halves of the post-Roman empire difficult.
James Martinez
>Eurbyrates Who the fuck is this? I've read the Iliad and the Odyssey. Don't remember this fucker.
Samuel Nelson
>classical and pre-history society is not the same as middle-ages/early-mod society and one did not grow from the other? lmao
>you think culture or history is a linear line? no man it's a spiral and non whites somehow disappeared from europe once the classical times were over
>the arabs had to bring classicism back into europe after ancient languages died out. so by classicism you mean slavery and conquest? well shiet
Evan Barnes
> citing an obscure literally who as ""evidence"" of large-scale population trends I hope to God you're actually trolling, I don't want to feel like I suddenly woke up in idiocracy.
Owen Adams
>user says North Africans were whiter than Greeks >you cite the physical appearance of a dark-skinned Greek character to disprove him
Are you literally retarded?
Jonathan Lee
So to recap, the truth is that there was 'ethnic diversity' or at least North Africans in Roman Britain, but not the Sub-Saharan Africans depicted?
Ian Gutierrez
It's time you learned the true history of Rome.
Jeremiah Cruz
No, he's referring to part Roman merchant, part black north African. They're a left over from the civil war. Most of the other hybrids he encounters are the Hispanic ones, not the Greek-Semites since his campaigns move the opposite direction to those territories. And if you want to go that route, you'd know a lot of black Etruscan lines would still become Roman lines. There's black people even further north in the Etruscans, user. Doesn't make for less black people in the Mediterranean. He's the herald, the one who Odysseus trusts most.
Do none of you niggers read?
Oliver Jenkins
>every single person mentioned as having dark skin or curly hair is a sub-sarahan african and therefore it's racist to not portray vikings as black
Lucas Myers
>No, he's referring to part Roman merchant, part black north African. Where's your evidence for this? North Africans aren't black.
Jaxson Jones
no, one did not grow from the other. history is not linear. non-white didn't disappear. skin hues get darker the closer you get to the old med empires and asiatic the closer you get to the old steppe empires. by classicism I mean greek and roman texts. its the reason why averroes is depicted in the school of athens.
Samuel Gray
I should have hidden this thread the moment I read the phrase "black Etruscans" but for some reason I can't stop replying to you
Juan Powell
The one about female sexuality in weimar rebublic could be intresting. Can anyone recomend books on the subject?
Juan Richardson
She is a respected historian who's done research in the field for years. You're a nobody pissed off because she said something you don't like
Eurybates is described as having tan skin and curly hair. I.e. not much different from a modern Southern Greek like pic related. Suggesting that he was black is politically-correct revisionist history.
Carson Perry
whats so funny
Henry Lee
His future
Noah Richardson
There's a huge blindspot in modern academia when it comes to race and ancient societies. No matter how much Alexander is described as a light-eyed ruddy blond in primary sources, PhDs on Quora will all say that he had brown skin when asked because he was "Mediterranean." You can't be honest about race in the 21st century; it's heretical.
Anthony Cook
Where the hell is he described as blond? The Alexander mosaic shows him as brown haired and brown eyed
Henry Morris
I'm a historian and I can tell you unequivocally that roman skeletons are often found in the UK from all sorts of different backgrounds.
In fact recently a Chinese skeleton was found astonishingly. But anyway, dont get angry because fact doesnt line up with your political opinions you retards, you are no different from the SJWs.
Jose Garcia
this, the roman empire being so big it was obvious that it was somehow diverse
Alexander Wright
>Apelles, however, in painting him as wielder of the thunder-bolt, did not reproduce his complexion, but made it too dark and swarthy. Whereas he was of a fair colour, as they say, and his fairness passed into ruddiness on his breast particularly, and in his face. - Plutarch
>T]he strong, handsome commander with one eye dark as the night and one blue as the sky - Arrian
>hey affirm likewise that Alexander Son of Philip was of a neglectful handsomness: For his Hair curled naturally, and was yellow; yet they say there was something stern in his countenance. - Aelian
>For he had the hair of a lion and one eye was blue; the right one was heavy lidded and black, and the left one was blue - Callisthenes
Jonathan Murphy
But are they the exceptions that prove the rule, or evidence of a vibrant multi-culturalism?
Mason Rivera
>writing centuries after his life >"""primary sources""" They also say he smelled unnaturally sweet. The Alexander mosaic portrays him as typical med, which is based off a painting done in his life time.
Asher Reyes
The issue at hand wasn't whether or not non-white Romans existed, but about their prevalence and preponderance. There are black people living in Japan right now, but an accurate visual representation of contemporary Japan wouldn't have a black man in every shot.
Sebastian Bell
Italy unironically had medis and moors around for a very long time
Levi Reed
Stop projecting your creepy cuck fantasy on non-white supremacists
Nolan Reed
its an ongoing issue. most historians come down that he was most probably what we called strawberry blonde. it's a philological issue about how to interpret the classical texts. however, skin tone is a very naive way to determine genetic ancestry. people thought the kalash tribe in India were greek in origin because they were white/light skinned. dna tests didn't agree. yet greek dna is found in part of west asia were the populace is dark like the pashtun. unfortunately those who view race as a fixed, essential trait will always try to muddy the waters on these debates just like ptolemaic ancestors in africa.
Sebastian Wilson
>let's pretend that people with black skin aren't black good luck Because he says they're north African. That they're left over from the civil war is speculation, because it's the best way to explain how there were any such hybrids. To be a hybrid, they need features of both, so it's pretty self explanatory. >being this upset by Etruscan coinage just before the Romans took over should we get in the time machine and tell them to stop leaving awkward artifacts that challenge your view of history? it's actually dark skin and hair like wool >μελανόχροος (can be translated as melanin enriched, as you'll see from the melano prefix, ) >οὐλοkάρηνος (you can see the lamb/sheep reference at the end)
Hunter Carter
Are those 'we wuz' posters for real? What?
Thomas Watson
Callisthenes lived contemporaneously with Alexander.
This is silly. The mosaic shows a man with a ruddy/tanned face and with white hands and a white neck. It's also aged, which adds color. But trying to get an accurate representation of a man based on a 2400 year old, tattered mosaic is a bit absurd.
>typical med He was from the northern hinterlands of Greece, which was constantly invaded by Gauls.
Camden Barnes
>academics are now arguing with shitposters on twitter
Social media was a mistake
David Cox
This hurts my very soul... yet I'm not even racist...
Daniel Walker
This. This thread wouldn't have lasted ten replies on Veeky Forums
Isaac Fisher
It isn't the 50's any more senpai being a academic isn't a respectable position.
James Davis
>ruddy/tanned fac
You know, most people who stay outdoors for extended periods, like warriors, will have tanned faces. Doesn't really say anything about the person's ethnicity, besides the fact that they're not black.
That's kind of dumb to get offended by the word redskins too. Indians had red skin because they were outside all day. White people's skin will turn red too, given enough exposure to the sun. Look at highway crews for example.
Nathan Johnson
...
Mason Reyes
Fuck burgers are racist
In their minds the only society is western society and the only races are blacks and whites. Never see asians, indians, polynesians etc when to comes to "diversity".
Juan Edwards
This is a respected academic who's done research in the field of Beyonce studies for years.
Alexander Sullivan
>it's actually dark skin and hair like wool I'm not going to pretend I read Homeric Greek, so I can't argue with you. My Greek "scholarship" consists of reading translated primary works. All I can say is that the lack of significant black admixture in modern Greek genetics makes me suspicious of your interpretation. My interpretation of the Fitzgerald translation is simply a curly-haired Mediterranean, which is fairly common.
Carter Martin
red neck and red leg were both slurs against irish emigrants/deportees. unlike redskins, though, their skin actually turned red. though they're probably only pissed off about it because the english treated them as a subrace for a couple hundred years and starved half of them out the country/existence. interestingly, a red neck would never be a hillbilly, because hill billies were protestant scottish people. for alexander though, his skin was noted to be especially red, compared to his contemporaries. it's unlikely he spent more time in the sun than everyone else, so it's probably due to his skin tone.
Ayden Parker
Read Euripdes' "Hippolytus"
I’ll hate you women, hate and hate and hate you, and never have enough of hating… Some say that I talk of this eternally, yes, but eternal, too, is woman’s wickedness. Either let someone teach them to be chaste, or suffer me to trample on them forever.
Tyler Stewart
This tbqh
Gabriel Edwards
>so it's probably due to his skin tone. As in being fair. Olive-skinned people like me turn red initially then develop a brown hue. Fair-skinned people (Alexander could have been a redhead) tend to burn up and stay red.
Nathaniel Martin
modern greeks are not ancient greeks. trying to make that comparison is absurd.
Ian Sullivan
>Fitzgerald translation That just tells me you want to give me Fitzgerald's view of what race he was, which is obviously going to be subject to a much later appreciation of race and its biases. By that stage the word melanochroi was being used to mean "dark whites" which is everything from Indian Brahmin to Welsh and Irish pasty skin, but does not include AngloSaxons or Germans, even if those AngloSaxons are as tanned as the Brahmin.
Angel Foster
I'm not. What i'm suggesting is that Hellenistic Greece didn't just die out and get replaced by an entirely new gene pool. If Greece had a significantly black population a couple thousand years ago, genetic traces of it would still be there today.
Justin Long
this. it's almost as if every generation projects their own society onto the past. which is why erring on the side of the physical evidence is always going to be the strongest position. currently the evidence suggests diversity. that might change but we can't know for now.
Blake Anderson
WE WUZ CAPUTTE MUNDI
Brayden Ward
So many missed opportunities here.
Dominic Barnes
african dna is all over europe dude. the question has never been whether africans were there but where those markers came from. how much Iberian dna is from the theoried ice age migration and how much is from the moorish invasions? are classical africans the same as modern africans? is North Africa lighter because of turkic/arab invasion or has North Africans always been lighter than other africans? these aren't easy questions to answer and anybody who tells you that they know the truth is a political hack not interested in the truth.
Robert Butler
I'm not qualified to argue this point. I'm still trying to get my Latin down. But the "whitification of the Irish" argument employed by modern sociologists to demonstrate how race is "constructed" is mostly bullshit revisionist history.
A modern projection of society onto the past is exactly what OP is arguing against. The BBC series features black Anglo-Saxons, black Celts, and black Normans. The evidence shows that Rome wasn't exclusively white, but that doesn't mean that including black characters in nearly every scene that depicts every period of European civilization is accurate.
Brayden Morris
Black genetic markers aren't synonymous with African genetic markers. North African DNA is all over Southern Europe for obvious reasons, but that's not what I'm referring to.
Jaxon Barnes
Can we not be sure that the current values of our society aren't being projected upon the physical evidence? Diversity is one of the central values of the academia. Can they be trusted not to inflict it upom every element of existence.
Evan Kelly
nor is this red-pilled view of race and especially classical race accurate either. I'm not agreeing with either position but with the evidence. reactionaries are projecting as much as any sjw ever did.
Ethan Foster
that's possible if every science used in enthnographic and anthropology and archeology are flawed and start with an axiom of diversity. considering these studies started before post-war liberalism, that'd be a pretty big claim to try and make.
Nicholas Parker
Every field of human knowledge was fundamentally altered during the long march through the institutions. They way as well be entirely different sciences.
Jack Williams
>nor is this red-pilled view of race and especially classical race accurate either. Of course it isn't. But it's a fringe view. The SJW revisionism, on the other hand, made it onto the BBC. Black Egyptology is taken seriously to the point where I see black women wearing Egyptian jewelry on the subway, and black people on twitter using Ramesses II as their profile pics. No modern academic would dare correct that perception.
Christopher Harris
Fucking political correctness...
Joseph Rodriguez
Yet having white characters play non-white historical figures is "white-washing."
Chase Ross
>Black genetic markers aren't synonymous with African genetic markers. yes but that's the point. current phenotypes that have been through thousands of years of migrations, invasions, political marriages, tribal slavery etc. are not synonymous with classical phenotypes. which is why a broader analysis must be taken. black skeleton found in europe...okay what does that mean? given that black people are depicted in art, even in middle-ages, and the philological evidence (the last name Blackmore), and such points to diversity. how diverse? who knows. are these skeletons and depictions of regular populations or of slaves or singular historical oddities? more research needed.
Elijah Diaz
because those black people aren't making a historical statement. eygptian iconography comes from aesthetic movements like afrofuturism. you know, space is the place. you on the other hand have no idea what is going on in the academy and are in no position to m are sweeping statements about classics/anthropology departments.
Juan Martinez
I realize the hypocrisy of the left, friendo. Well-aware...
Michael Sanders
>I'm not qualified to argue this point. I'm still trying to get my Latin down. But the "whitification of the Irish" argument employed by modern sociologists to demonstrate how race is "constructed" is mostly bullshit revisionist history. I don't know what you're talking about but there's an interesting case in the US for this where a high caste Indian argued he should be considered a "free white" as the law was meant to exclude Africans not Indians. Meanwhile in South Africa, Gandhi is contending he is above the South African blacks and due a better train carriage than them.
For more on melanochroi and xanthochroi whites, TH Huxley, the guy who invented those distinctions.
A lot of it is socially constructed, even all the way back to the Greeks. Aristotle, with his love of the middle ground and averages, thought the Greeks were the ideal race because they weren't as pale as the barbarian red heads to the north, and weren't as dark as others. Every society comes up with their own reasoning as to which skin tone gives you less pull.
While I'm sure the BBC are doing it for different reasons, black Romans or Celts aren't really that strange. It's no more strange than the Greek-Celts, or wearing Goth wolf skins in Constantinople. The ancient world was pretty connected and the reason why there aren't more stories of OMG BLACK SKINNED PEOPLE is because black skinned people aren't that much of a rarity until you get to the 1500s or so when owning one became a status symbol. Before that, most of the rarities that people wanted to buy for their human zoo collection were red heads, or the really exotic blondes, which is why those slaves went for higher auction prices in Roman times than black slaves: they were rarer and you could make a wig out of their hair that would show your far reaching status and connections.
Gavin Turner
DAE think white men are the most oppressed group in society?? upvote
Jayden Richardson
>Respected historian >Believes in "EREMUS REGES ET MERDA"
James Morgan
do you mean erebamus? it would keep the spelling error and the tense.
Camden Stewart
>"scientific evidence'" - Mary Beard
Isaac Long
>because those black people aren't making a historical statement. Have you spoken to them? Have you read their tweets? This isn't purely an aesthetic movement, it's a movement that seeks to "reclaim" black civilizations and achievements from the revisionists Eurocentric scholars who appropriated them for their own racist, colonial purposes. It's a movement that makes falsifiable historical and scientific claims. This isn't just an art movement.
Joshua Walker
The mosaic is based off a painting contemporaneous with Alexander. Calisthenes only says his hair was like a lion's, which could mean many things. All statues show him with hair ringing his face like a mane.
Bentley Rogers
She's correct, there were dark-skinned Roman soldiers stationed in Britain. It's not outside the realm of possibility.
The black celts, normans, etc. is pretty stupid though. But they're just short videos for children, why bust a blood vessel over it.
Luke Murphy
Eh, there's like one or two /pol/tards there and everyone else is pointing out that Beard is a respect historian while Watson is clearly a moron.