In this book it says you should be against letting transgenders transition...

In this book it says you should be against letting transgenders transition. And instead they should at the minimum go on medication and in the most severe cases be institutionalized until remedied. What are your thoughts? It says letting them transition is akin to teaching a bulimic a more efficient way of vomiting. Thoughts? Quite the interesting book.

Other urls found in this thread:

metronews.ca/news/halifax/2017/02/06/gender-nonconforming-kid-elliott-educate-pop-up-school.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femminiello
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_Bugis_society
waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing-genders-over-40attempt-suicide-and-even-after-surgery-a-large-number-remain-traum.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_therapy#Effectiveness
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

I think we should first be asking whether we should let "transgender" individuals live

I agree. The book argues it should be against the law to let those people go without treatment And that helping them transition is amoral.

Szasz is about as much of an authority on anything as Alex Jones, but at least Jones can be genuinely entertaining. Anti-psychiatry was a counter-cultural fad like holotropic breathing and cybernetics.

Lol I showed this book to my gf and she came back with "he's too much of a dualist"

and desu desu she might be right

You can cut your hair and (I hope) clip your nails, why shouldn't someone be able to cut his dick? Just do you, user. Live and let live

OP, if you're sincere about this, you should read this essay:

slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21/the-categories-were-made-for-man-not-man-for-the-categories/

Basically, there are people in this world for whom transitioning is the only effective way to overcome depression, suicidal tendencies and regain a functional life. The science says it works and nothing else does. So if your goal is to make unhappy people feel better (as opposed to Restoring the Earthly Reflection of the Celestial Platonic Gender) then you should support transitioning. The same would apply for bulimia if such were its circumstances.

Don't even bother, fellow rationalist. I've already posted Scott Alexander here and people began to call him a cuck and laugh at the article about polyamory. This website is ass-deep in tribalism.

I would have no issue with transitioning as a last-ditch scenario if it weren't being so aggressively pushed by the media. Too many people are transitioning only to realize that their condition was not severe enough to justify the new lifestyle changes and the costs that come with them. When you're dilating a gaping wound for hours every day in order to keep up an illusion that you will never be able to reverse, you will have a problem.

Umm, user, unlike Jones at least Szasz was a trained doctor. And Szasz and the entire anti-psychiatry movement (including the great R.D. Laing) was very much responsible for our (ridiculously lapse) treatment of the mentally infirm today - read a book called The Insanity Offense.

>ridiculously lapse

Your girlfriend can call the cops and say you're threatening to kill yourself and have you locked up for days or weeks with no evidence at all beyond her say-so and your seeming odd to police and nurses.

small minds who get their self esteem from something as banal as that deserve to be unhappy desu

So true. Even Bailey Jay hasn't cut his dick off

Hey guys

What's more gay?
Watching a dude fuck a chick
Or watching a transgender fuck a chick.?

>The science says it works and nothing else does.

Classic claim straight from the charlatan's ass

Watching a tranny fuck a chick because the tranny is gay. The male is straight.

Not to mention the children.

He didn't specify if the tranny was MTF or FTM.

this. I would have no problem with trans people if they just wanted to live normal lives , but unfortunately, these people are ideologically motivated leftoids who want to subvert society and indoctrinate children with their weird ideologies.

>The next day Elliott asked for magazines to make a collage about things people should know more about, adding glitter and photos of Beyonce and trans actress Laverne Cox next to words like bodies, consent, racism, gender, and decolonization -- which they asked for help writing.

>While Elliott often used blue (he), pink (she), or yellow (they) bracelets to show Kym which pronoun they preferred before they started school, after a “rough” first couple months in primary they decided on “boy” clothing and “he” pronouns after being teased.

>leftists will actually tell you this kid isn't being indoctrinated in any way


metronews.ca/news/halifax/2017/02/06/gender-nonconforming-kid-elliott-educate-pop-up-school.html

>the science says it works and nothing else does.

I'm not sure if we can trust said 'science' with those blue haired PC freaks running our universities.

>Being a filthy materialist
Kys

This is Catman, you are to refer to Catman exclusively by the pronouns Cat/Cats/Catself. Refusing to have sex with Catman is a Catphobic hatecrime, punishable with up to 20 years of prison/mandated sensitivity training in Sweden.

The western world is one huge mental institution with no walls nowadays. the instruments of control used by mental institutions have been exported to the general population. People are nominally free to 'do whatever they want', but yet they have never been more subject to regulation. That's what Deleuze and Foucault, who by the way were also involved in the anti psych movement, meant when they talked about the transition from the disciplinary society to the society of control.

This is usually the opening argument. Reasonable people agree with the logic because they envision amoral cosmetic surgeons performing unnecessary surgery that doesn't harm anyone but the deviant. Then the furtive driving force behind the useless deviation pillories the first surgeon who says, 'Nah, I think that's mental illness and it would be hypocritical of me to perform that surgery.' Then it becomes the de facto policy that all surgeons must perform this surgery.

That's why you fight this crap from the get-go.

to be fair, I used to be a lot more sympathetic to trans people, sure some of the trans anons on imageboards seemed nice and all, but then they became a meme and I felt compelled to become transphobic out of sheer contrarianism.

>slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21/the-categories-were-made-for-man-not-man-for-the-categories/
For someone who calls themselves a rationalists, they have no trouble blindly accepting that transition is the only solution to gender dysphoria.

>people are nominally free but are really controlled

Christian Anarchism when?????

I was speaking on medical terms instead of philosophical ones w/r/t the 'lapse' treatment of the mentally ill. I love D&G and Foucault, but I was referring to the way medical facilities send these schizophrenics home and "trust them" to faithfully take their medicine and they don't and slip into madness, murder, etc. And leaving non-medical people (families mostly) to be expect to know how to treat those with mental disabilities (returning veterans from foreign wars) is cruel to both parties.

Completely agree. Transgenders are the ones that buy into the whole gender bullshit the most.

By the way I've heard of this author before although never read him. Not many people deal with with psychiatry in a purely political way. Foucault was the best (seriously read his Psychiatric Power lectures!) but he was stuck in the 19th century and the first half of the 20th.

We need a new genealogy of psychiatry that takes both CBT and pharmacy revolutions as well as dismantling of asylums into account. I started researching this once but grew tired of it.

ACT is the next wave.

yeah, it's interesting how the ideas of the 60s/70s counterculture ended up providing a justification for the reagan revolution in the 80s. The homeless population exploded when Reagan liquidated the mental health system. To be fair, lots of the anti psychiatry sentiment also came from John Birch types who thought the whole thing was a communist plot.

This. Give them a good flogging or throw them off a mountain if they're completely worthless

Actually once you get beyond the initial fascination with Foucault and Deleuze you realize a lot of their metaphors are rooted in cybernetics and neoliberalism. I used to be obsessed with Foucault but now I see his constant use of the word "networks" and "relations" as merely part of the times. I still appreciate their works for what they are but they have serious limitations.
Now I'm obsessed with Baudrillard and I don't give a fuck about anything anymore.

And a reminder that psychiatry is the "jewish science." This shit has been whacked out from the beginning.

They often know from a very early age, much earlier than gays do

My R.E teacher made the same justification for a religious belief in God. Some people just "know" from a young age and others have to struggle with faith. Take from that what you will.

That doesn't trump the mental illness argument, as neuroses arise from the first few years of childrearing.

Trannies are irrelevant but whoever thinks it should be pushed on kids needs to die. NO child is prepared to make that kind of decision until they hit 18-21.

They shouldn't transition. Gender Dysphoria is curable.

trannies are a thing in many traditional cultures around the world as a socially recognised 'third gender' with its own associated roles and rituals. Modern life is alienating precisely because it recognises only the atomised individual on one side and monolithic abstract 'society' on the other. You are caught in a double bind, with no traditional structures to guide yourself by and unable to create new structures or find new meanings. so hating on muh trannies is an easy way out ie. defining yourself AGAINST something, namely an over the top menacing stereotype. but that's not really healthy, be nice to your fellow inmates. The obsession with new and exciting 'genders' among tumblr teens is a product of the same dynamic, the modern individual is forced to scream 'I EXIST' or else succumb to soul crushing existential horror.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femminiello

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_Bugis_society

so? that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discouraged and given further treatment that isn't going to alienate them from broader society. we want the suicide rate to go down not stay the same because 'they're just naturally like that'.

>traditional cultures
no such thing

Huh?

Saying a culture is "traditional" implies it's operating according to some abstract form that all cultures would be measured against (say, whats an untraditional culture?), when really whatever A or B culture practices is just what they developed because they did.

You know what also cures gender dysphoria?
Transitioning, let the trannies be happy stfu

The notion of "traditional" does really have conflicting associations, it usually refers to cultures that are themselves fairly recent.
But there is such a thing as "primitive cultures" that are radically opposed to modern disenchanted systems, mainly in their lack of rationalism and economicism. Think of the notion of accursed share or potlatch.

Is this what Marxists have told you to believe?

I am letting them be happy.

It's called actually thinking about the words you use.

It's the distortion of them. Your opinion has been handed down to you by iconoclasts.

if that were the case the suicide rate would go down, it's clear that the trannies are not happy, capitulating to the mentally ill is the worst way to deal with their problems

If it were to be the right choice for them then it would certainly benefit them to go through puberty under and be socialized from a young age as the gender they'll live the majority of their life as desu

but user, what if the consistently high suicide rate is due to their rejection and humiliation by general society - a constant both prior too, and sadly, after their transition

Trans freaks should be sent to an exile colony because they deserve death, and I'm all about giving people better than they deserve.

what does it even mean to 'capitulate to the mentally ill'? There's a pretty solid neurological basis for transgender identity, i think it would be better for all involved if it was treated as a naturally occurring variation instead of a disease. works fine for some cultures.

>there is such a thing as "primitive cultures" that are radically opposed to modern disenchanted systems, mainly in their lack of rationalism and economics

that's exactly what i meant though. modernity is definitely a beast of its own.

possible however i would expect to see some improvement, even if only a little post-transition. As acceptance has risen i would expect to see some correlation with lowering suicide rates and i don't see how the issue is resolvable if it were the case, as they'll never be seen as potential mates until they can get some sort of womb transplant or something and as i said earlier society shouldn't be capitulating to 0.3% of the population

>s they'll never be seen as potential mates until they can get some sort of womb transplant or something
ew

ftm's are generally enlightened and should be praised, as long as they're not too radical and degenerate

mtf's should be shot

both are a mockery

as in humouring their delusions, i don't give a heroin addict what they want but rather attempt to help them with their illness. There is a solid neurological basis for a myriad of different illnesses which should all be treated rather than pretending that they aren't ill.

Thanks, seems kinda interesting. Although to be honest seems really vague as well, maybe just another variation of CBT. I'll look into it though.

why not just threat people as individuals? sure some trannies are obnoxious but that goes for any category of people

Not that user, but because individuals don't exist, especially not in the modern times. We're all just remixes of various opinions and personalities offered to us by pop culture. Radical otherness might only be present in insane people although even they are usually products of societal conflicts.

>the exception to the rule breaks the rule

You do see a reduction in suicide rates, though still above the national average
In cultures largely accepting of the practice (see, south east Asia) you see even lower rates, fact check me on that though because I think it's still above average

That the order of suicide rates is highest in pre-transitory and certain groups, lower in post transition people in 'non-accepting' cultures, and lowest in 'accepting' cultures, I think, supports my view

isn't it the most effective treatment? you can't suggest all treatment being perfectly fine except this one thing because you personally dislike it.

I would ignore the womb problem if they would just look their part, if transitioning is gonna become the thing, we need to talk about who might make it as the other sex and who is NEVER EVER gonna look the part. I just can't...
Seeing some of the comments in this thread, I can see why that would be consistent. I wish I knew more about this though. What do they themselves attribute the thoughts of suicide with? Would a Gallup poll be impossible?

> That the order of suicide rates is highest in pre-transitory and certain groups, lower in post transition people in 'non-accepting' cultures, and lowest in 'accepting' cultures, I think, supports my view
Good lord. The point of this tranny shit is to break down cultural norms and normalize the opposite: total degeneracy. To make people passive, which you're told is "accepting." It's a power play by our dual-citizen establishment to atomize and demoralize the populace. You're drinking the kool-aid because you're not a smart person. Wise up.

Why do you care about degeneracy, you're not a fundamentalist, you just read too many jewish conspiracy theories on a anime website and now you think people don't have a right to a personal pursuit of happiness because they might corrupt your non-existent kids or something?

Selfish individualism peaks in decline. These people do not matter, they are symptoms of white nations' cultural and spiritual decay.

Why haven't you converted to the path of gods chosen people yet, Europeans are hellbent on cultural (and even personal) suicide - /pol/ boys are so fucking tsundere for hassidicism
You get your own ethno-state, you can call everyone degenerates but nobody can call you racist, and you can hate muslims as much as you want

Your boys at Frankfurt wrote extensively on the threat of liberalism on the individual through atomization and loss of communal connection because of free trade capitalists, just admit Christianity is p cuck and you'll be much happier

Would ACT work for someone who cannot be traditionally treated using CBT because of (sometimes quite prolonged) delay in recognition of thought and feeling?

Or does it require the same immediacy as CBT?

reactionary sentiments stem from a feeling of terror and powerlessness at the modern world, which is, imo, completely justified. Digital media wrecks people's identities and sense of self. The world itself becomes an alien and hostile place, a world with no future and no higher purpose. The problem is reactionaries don't really attempt to understand the modern world, they remain at the level of gut feelings.

25.

They aren't ready until they're 25. The brain is not sufficiently developed enough to even comprehend the issue until it settles after puberty. The mind of an 18-21 year old is still developing and not ready to make that sort of decision with logical thinking behind it.

what about those freaks who "identify" as multiple people? used to be they were called schizophrenics ad treated with Thorazine. Should we pay for expensive medical procedures to modify their genitals as well?

Same purpose as always, keep your genetics (and by extension, the species) alive into the future
This doesn't even really require a massive leap, as capitalist competition does an adequate job of motivating innovation in the realm of technological progress

Transgenderism at all is the result of contradictory and constrictive definitions of gender and gendered social roles. Maybe people wouldn't be going insane if society had a different and better construction of social relations unrelated to gender. Of course people get strange when ideology doesn't work. Fuckin hell

>Same purpose as always, keep your genetics (and by extension, the species) alive into the future

that's a distinctively modern and disenchanted worldview , though. nobody understood themselves on those terms before the 19th century. but here in the 21st century capitalism is evolving in a very different direction, towards monopoly and automated absurdity. Sillicon Valley's and the Davos set's plans for the future are a black fucking nightmare any way you look at them. And besides, Google is part of the evil SJW managerial state, which in the last analysis is just a logical development of capitalist governance.

where is the data that supports that? from what i've read the rate is about the same and in fact many end up regretting it due to the fact that they realise nothing has really changed
waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing-genders-over-40attempt-suicide-and-even-after-surgery-a-large-number-remain-traum.html
Realistically I don't see it being normalised for a long time as men will never want to marry a woman who is infertile, has to spend hours a day maintaining their open wound where their penis used to be, doesn't look like a normal woman and has a disgusting wound for a vagina. Hence why i believe that therapy and research into proper treatment is the best solution

Depends what you mean. There is no reason that CBT can't be tailored to that kind of situation, although yes, ACT has less emphasis on analysis of thoughts and emotions and more emphasis on managing the mechanisms by which they spiral into meta-thoughts and emotions (i.e., thoughts about thoughts, feelings about feelings etc.). In my experience ACT is "gentler", but again, a good practitioner should be able to make a CBT approach quite gentle as slow paced as well.

Though that says nothing we should recognise the transition, it's like humouring a simpleton doing something idiotic. This is an action of pity

That's pretty pathetic, user.

>I'm not sure if we can trust said 'science' with those blue haired PC freaks running our universities.
You're being selectively skeptical. Would you be equally distrustful to studies you didn't disagree with beforehand?

I suggest you work for or fund a think tank that would be able to create a corpus of studies that would support your view. Until then, they have data and you don't. Good luck affecting policy without data.

>I don't trust those librul "scientists" and their fancy schmancy "research". I prefer to use a REAL reliable source of knowledge - my ass

If Thorazine is cheaper and works better than surgery then do that. Otherwise do surgery.

Involuntary sex is a huge price to pay that results in no less psychological trauma than it might prevent. On the other hand, pronouns are cheap.

The result is functionally the same. You can say to yourself in your head "but they're not REALLY a different gender" but as long as you're "pretending" that they are it doesn't matter.

>and has a disgusting wound for a vagina
But cis women have disgusting wounds for vaginas too

>people who don't believe what I do must be distorting words

What a terrible analogy. Heroin addicts get worse and spiral further as they use more heroin, trans people get better after transitioning usually, though they are often too eager

feel when this teen will reply to himself until bump limit and that will take days because nobody else replies to off-topic threads on the literature board

Remixes will still make an individual.

>transitioning is the only effective way to overcome depression, suicidal tendencies and regain a functional life
>The science says it works and nothing else does
[citation needed]

Looks a hell of a lot more attractive

I copd replace it with anything, i was going to use schizophreniacs except they remind me more of drug addicts

Why do 48% percent of them kill themselves after transitioning? And don't say oppression because that's bullshit and you know it. If you don't use kid gloves with these """people""" you get sued and shamed out the ass.

I got drunk and partied with many FtMs and they were chill as hell. Not acting like a m'lady sperg helps.

Why do they kill themselves?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_therapy#Effectiveness

>Why do 48% percent of them kill themselves after transitioning?
I'm not sure if that's a correct number. But how many try suicide before transitioning? If it's at least 49% then this is an improvement.

>If you don't use kid gloves with these """people""" you get sued and shamed out the ass
Yeah, that happens all the time in Podunk, TX.

What do the numbers mean, Mason? Why the fuck would you ask me questions like that?

>Why do 48% percent of them kill themselves after transitioning?
Not sure what you're doing on this board if you can't read.

Why the obsession with "happiness"? Next you'll be telling me about "fundamental human rights" and class consciousness. What do you call this brand of humanism, is it materialistic?

As far as I'm concerned, its 0.3% of the population so who cares. Let them mutilate themselves in peace. I'm not calling anyone a xe/xi/xhem or whatever that shit is though.

Apparently everyone in the media and government cares a whole hell of a lot for some reason

Must be a grand Masonic conspiracy. We have to stop Schlomo before it's too late, user.