I have grown out of Christianity (Otherwise known as Cuckoldry)

For quite some time, I considered myself to be a Christian in the same vain as Tolstoy. That is, I believed in the principles of Non-Violence and that the truth of the Christian faith was contained within the Gospels and only the Gospels, culminated in my reading of The Gospel in Brief which I was led to reading through Wittgenstein.

However, in the past few months I have become acquainted with thinkers such as Nietzsche, Spengler, Evola and Guenon and I now regard Christianity as a prerequisite for Modernity itself and its historical connection to Judaism leads me to reject it on spiritual grounds as *Jewishness* as was Weininger's view, is synonymous with Modernity itself and the historical lack of connection between Jews and the soil leads me to regard them as spiritually decadent and incapable of Warrior might. Also, I have come to believe in a particular kind of Racialism, which is not so much Biologically based as it was for the likes of the Nazis (whom I regard as decadent bourgeois masses) but rather, a spiritual condition that begins with Race and then extends beyond it and even itself. As a result of all of this, my views on Civilization, Modernity and Religion have experienced a vital shift which requires further sustenance (perhaps in the mystical regard). My though has also been influenced by anti-technology thinkers.

So, I ask, have you any recommendations for where I should go next? Anything in the realm of Hinduism in particular? What are your thoughts on Perennialism/The Traditionalist School (Despite such terms being rejected by their thinkers)?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=91YLkT2I66E
tantrikstudies.squarespace.com/blog/2016/2/5/the-real-story-on-the-chakras?fref=gc
twitter.com/AnonBabble

You merely adopted the truth; I was born in it, molded by it.

> Neetschee
> Julius " so extreme the Nazis kicked him out " Evola
> Guenon " a religion that preaches asceticism and spirituality is a prereq to materialism and worldliness "

Weeeeew

I don't respond to brainlets. Perhaps, you should try your cringey green arrows in an archived thread from 2014, brainlet.

*ignores*

>OP rejects Christ because he can't tell the difference between New Testament and Old
>OP seeks enlightenment in barbaric foreign magics

OP you are literally a stupider version of Saul. You met Christ on the road to Damascus but you were too fucking boneheaded and smug to recognize his perfection.

>What are your thoughts on Perennialism/The Traditionalist School

The notion of a perrennial philosophy goes back to the Platonic Academy of Marsilio Ficino at the onset of the Renaissance, finding it's fullest expression in the 900 Theses of Pico Mirandola – it is, in other words, not anything new in particular.

As I see it, the problem with the school of Traditionalism alá Guenon, Evola, Schuon, Coomaraswamy, Burckhardt et al. is this:

They fail to understand that philosophy and theology expresses itself in conjuction with the times – it's historical settings, the emotional life of the people, their thought patterns, worldview and so forth. This has been argued excellent by Giambattista Vico in the New Science, with an apt metaphor of "mental vocabulary", and also by Hegel in the Phenomonelogy of Spirit.

Their "Traditionalism" is, above all else, not a return as they would have you believe through their ideological rhetoric, but a reinterpretation tainted by their own minds and emotional lifes.

It is far better, in my opinion, to disregard their idiosyncratic interpretations completely and study the classics firsthand for yourself. You will then be in a position to agree/disagree with their assesments, but you won't be bound by their framework.

My take on Christianity is different. I agree with Xenophanes criticism of the culturally biased anthropomorphism of the gods and hold to the Neoplatonic notion of the gods being symbolic representations of cosmological forces. This was, by the way, the same conception of the angels the Christians had, thanks to the works of Pseudo-Dionysius who considered them "mens", or "of intellect".

I see Christianity, beginning with the New Testament, as a new mythos that blended Greek literature with Middle Platonic philosophy and Roman-Stoic ethics. That doesn't make it impotent by any means – the Doctrine of Deification in the Greek Patristic Tradition by Norman Russell should help clarify the potency of Christianity.

I did not at any point mention the New or Old testament which I assume you got from my mentioning of the Jews and their relationship to Christiandom. My point was not in any way related to the relationship between these two traditions nor did I at any point claim that I seek 'Enlightenment' which again, is a conception of recent times and as such, it's revelations are regarded by myself as decadent and merely an ever clearer exemplification of decline.

Also, if you wish for me to reply to you, please do not use cringey meme arrows, thank you. :)

Alan Ryan - On Politics
Might is right.
Man and Technics.
The Consequences of Equality.
48 Laws of Power.
A Sky Without Eagles.
Better Never to have Been.
The Ego and its Own.
The Art of Worldy Wisdom.
The Quest for Cosmic Justice.
Persuasion, and Rhetoric.
The Passing of an Illusion: The Idea of Communism in the Twentieth Century.
The Concept of the Political.
Legality and Legitimacy
Leftism Revisited.
Liberty or Equality...

>Also, if you wish for me to reply to you, please do not use cringey meme arrows, thank you. :)
>...as he replies to me...

Good post my man.

no time ago
or else a life
walking in the dark
i met christ

jesus)my heart
flopped over
and lay still
while he passed(as

close as i’m to you
yes closer
made of nothing
except loneliness

>Nazi wants to accept Christ but can't because he was a Jew

OP you DO realize that Christ BTFO the Jews and their mystical nonsense forever, right?

Hello, Mr. Aryan

>OP you DO realize that Christ BTFO the Jews and their mystical nonsense forever, right?

First of all, if you had read my post, you would realise that I am against Nazism. Second of all, I am not against the mystical. Third of all, I do not wish to accept Christ.

Please read properly next time.

I appreciate you listing resources but if you could reshape these into a more coherent format, that would be very helpful. Also, I have heard/read many of these.

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I will muse over it further now.

>if you had read my post, you would realise that I am against Nazism

>"I have become acquainted with thinkers such as ...Evola"
>"[Christianity's] historical connection to Judaism leads me to reject it"
>"I have come to believe in a particular kind of Racialism"
>"[Jews] lack of connection [with] the soil ... incapable of Warrior might"

You are literally describing the Nazi volkisch movement and the idea of Blood and Soil, and say you were influenced by Evola; a man who was literally working for the SS. I'd like to believe you're just trolling, but I know people in real life who cling to this hatefulness because they are ugly white brainlet pseuds.

I can only recommend you look into Rene Girard and review the Greeks (Plato, Plotinus, Proclus) to figure out where the Christ-idea and the philosophy of /agape/ originated.

I will pray for you, brother. Perhaps you would enjoy Christian mysticism?

>You are literally describing the Nazi volkisch movement and the idea of Blood and Soil, and say you were influenced by Evola; a man who was literally working for the SS. I'd like to believe you're just trolling, but I know people in real life who cling to this hatefulness because they are ugly white brainlet pseuds.

First of all, why are you purposely omitting the following statement?

>"Also, I have come to believe in a particular kind of Racialism, which is not so much Biologically based as it was for the likes of the Nazis (whom I regard as decadent bourgeois masses) but rather, a spiritual condition that begins with Race and then extends beyond it and even itself."

Second of all, why do you assume that I am 'white'?

Third of all, you do realise Evola did not advocate Nazism, himself disliking its dictatorial nature and being in opposition to many thinkers in Nazi Germany (even having the SS put a file on him)?

Fourth of all, you do realise Weininger held the same view on Jews but he used the word 'Jew' in a particular sense, like myself, as a tendency of the mind and not in terms of biology?


It seems you purposely ignored my previous posts or you have naively mistaken my position. Please read my posts again, thank you.

>why do you assume that I am 'white'?
I didn't. I said "they" in reference to my acquaintances. And you, despite your rush against presumption have not denied it anyway. So then: would you (or others) say you are white?

>Third of all...
Yes, Evola thought of Nazism as you claim to. A low cause to rally the poor. And many people had SS files.

>Fourth of all...
>[Jew] as a tendency of the mind
You have described your thoughts in the barest terms. You've said Jews -- presumably here refering to a tendency of the mind -- as decadent nomads who are incapable of "Warrior might." Hardly a consistent usage, OP. Where is your rigor?

The idea of race as having some influence upon the spirit is funny, and it's even funnier to see you (speaking English, and NOT a Nazi!) reaching out to Hinduism in search of spiritual guidance.

>It seems you purposely ignored my previous post
My friend it seems you purposely ignored MY previous post. Girard and the Greeks. Go, learn. And stop wasting your time with 20th century apologists and German We Wuzzing.

>You have described your thoughts in the barest terms. You've said Jews -- presumably here refering to a tendency of the mind -- as decadent nomads who are incapable of "Warrior might." Hardly a consistent usage, OP. Where is your rigor?
>The idea of race as having some influence upon the spirit is funny, and it's even funnier to see you (speaking English, and NOT a Nazi!) reaching out to Hinduism in search of spiritual guidance.

Please read the chapter on Jews in Weininger's Sex and Character to understand of what I speak, here is a short excerpt:

>"First, however, I will explain exactly what I mean by Judaism. I do not mean either a race or a nation, and even less a legally recognized religious faith. Judaism must be regarded as a cast of mind, a psychic constitution, which is a possibility for all human beings and which has only found its most magnificent realization in historical Judaism."

Dear OP.
Praying for your soul here.
Leave and never return.
Yours truly, user.

>X is not X. It is, in fact, Y!!!

Hello OP my name is Otto Weininger. I was a Jew before I converted to Christianity and purposely shot myself at age 23. I wanted you to know that in life I was an angry self-hating Jew pseud brainlet. My spirit has come to you through user from the realm of spirits, and I have a message for you OP. The message is: Don't forget to drink your Ovaltine.

It seems you are not here to have a proper discussion. So much so that you read Weininger's Wikipedia article and now believe you understand his work when Sex and Character is hundreds of pages long and has influenced many great men. This is very interesting when noting your criticism of "rigor" in your previous post.

As a result, I do not feel it sufficient to converse with you any more as your expressions are of a charlatan's nature.

I actually was here to have a proper discussion. But one does not 'discuss' with the delusional. One can only smile and nod and hope the lost soul eventually grows the rest of the brain they are missing.

I gave my recommendations, as per your request, and received not even a thank you. Ad hominem may be low, but I cannot take the work of a 23 year old kissless virgin suicide seriously. He didn't know his asshole from his elbow, and the only reason you know of his pseudointellectual work now is his celebrity death.

Have a nice life, Prodigal Son. When you come back to Him after wasted years, don't forget I told you so.

Of course, you were a Christian all along.

>I cannot take the work of a 23 year old kissless virgin suicide seriously.
But you literally worship a 33 year old kissless virgin suicide.

I am a Christian the way is a Christian. Humanity was given a great gift, one entrusted to the Church. And in the way of all human politics, power corrupted. This is why soyboys in 2017 are looking to Eastern superstition for answers instead of good Greek reason.

>worship
No. The only thing I worship is the Christian philosophy of love as summarized in the Sermon on the Mount. All the later theological numbskullery about trinity and transubstantiation and incorrect creeds and was-he-a-man is a high tower built by the blind.

>This is why soyboys in 2017 are looking to Eastern superstition for answers instead of good Greek reason.

What makes you think I'm not Eastern?

>No. The only thing I worship is the Christian philosophy of love as summarized in the Sermon on the Mount. All the later theological numbskullery about trinity and transubstantiation and incorrect creeds and was-he-a-man is a high tower built by the blind.

Ah yes, I too believed with all of myself in this but I recognise now that in order to preserve my people, I cannot in the end support this.

Not an argument

youtube.com/watch?v=91YLkT2I66E

>For quite some time, I considered myself to be a Christian in the same vain as Tolstoy. That is, I believed in the principles of Non-Violence and that the truth of the Christian faith was contained within the Gospels and only the Gospels, culminated in my reading of The Gospel in Brief which I was led to reading through Wittgenstein.

Tolstoy's brand of Christianity is not authentic, not complete and over emphasizes the non-aggression principle. Even Christ made a cord of whips and drove out the money lenders from his temple.

So basically you went from cultural christian with no apprehension of the Divine, Christ, the Bible or the meaning of life to someone who makes an idol of "race" and "soil" and is trying to spiritualize them with occult philosophies. Blah.

>So, I ask, have you any recommendations for where I should go next? Anything in the realm of Hinduism in particular? What are your thoughts on Perennialism/The Traditionalist School (Despite such terms being rejected by their thinkers)?

You should read Frithjof Schuon's perennial view of Christianity and James Cutsinger and Kallistos Ware and the Philokalia and the early Patristics and investigate actual, orthodox Christianity.

>Hinduism

No, it is too far removed from the European spirit and isn't even open to someone who appreciates "traditionalism" due to its caste system and other limitations, that's why Guenon didn't become a hindu.

You might want to unironically read Moldbug.

I have read some of his work and unfortunately, it is not for me.

>What makes you think I'm not Eastern?
I have no idea what your racial makeup is. I do know you've been evasive about it, and have tried using that evasiveness to make a point as you are doing now. So, tell me or not. Just don't lie to win an argument on a Cambodian insult trading board. You're a philosopher, remember.

>I recognise now that in order to preserve my people
Read Girard. You would contribute to humanity's sorrow. The chain of blame and violence is endless, except in Christ's mythic image. His was the sacrifice, the scapegoat, that could have and still can set us free. It is brilliant.

>I cannot in the end support [forgiveness & non-violence]
There will always be someone bigger, stronger, and smarter than you. In this way you, and all that you make with your mortal life, will perish in vain for the sake of war. That's a low philosophy. It is the way of beasts.

>I have no idea what your racial makeup is. I do know you've been evasive about it, and have tried using that evasiveness to make a point as you are doing now. So, tell me or not. Just don't lie to win an argument on a Cambodian insult trading board. You're a philosopher, remember.

Not at all but all your posts continually assume I'm White or European which is humorous.

>Read Girard. You would contribute to humanity's sorrow. The chain of blame and violence is endless, except in Christ's mythic image. His was the sacrifice, the scapegoat, that could have and still can set us free. It is brilliant.

I will read Girard but I have somewhat accept these things that I once conceived as the ultimate evil, death, violence etc. That is to say, the needle on the Radio Transmitter has shifted and I now perceive the world differently despite seeing the same things. I cannot help it.


>There will always be someone bigger, stronger, and smarter than you. In this way you, and all that you make with your mortal life, will perish in vain for the sake of war. That's a low philosophy. It is the way of beasts.

Not at all, I do not support war nor violence but if violence is to mean preservation, especially when knowing that to not act would mean allowing oneself to be massacred for a Christian principle then I must act in the interest of preservation.

>especially when knowing that to not act would mean allowing oneself to be massacred for a Christian principle then I must act in the interest of preservation.

Precisely said. And when that interest of preservation is casus belli is invented by state propaganda? This is how you and the rest of the world has failed.

At my death I will rejoin with the one as a man, not a beast.

>Precisely said. And when that interest of preservation is casus belli is invented by state propaganda? This is how you and the rest of the world has failed.

Who is to say it must be invented by state propaganda?

Oh, OP. You were doing so well.

How many times are you going to go back to Nazism?

What? It's just a picture of state propaganda corrupting the youth in exactly the manner I described in . A similar picture could be found for any nation, but one example should suffice. And this one even seems apt, given your concern about Jewish impurity expressed in .

I don't believe in nation so your point is moot. Also, the Jewish points have already been addressed as have the Nazi ones.

You're running out of strawmans, try a new one.

I'd very much like to hear more about your beliefs. So far you've mostly spoken of them by negation.

And it's not a strawman, they are your words. :^) Has there ever been an OP as BTFO as this one?

Very insincere individual that embarrassingly shills his beliefs in the most feeble manner, then constantly alleging I hold beliefs only to effeminately declare "haha, he's so mad/btfo, r-right guys?"

Nice carrot face, dork.

Embarrassing!

>dork.

A D H O M I N E M
D

H
O
M
I
N
E
M

OP permanently destroyed. Returning to base.

Also you never responded to . Should I be the one to have to acknowledge his contribution to the discussion? His criticism is fair, and he gave you quality recommendations. OP isn't here to engage in dialectic, he just wants to blame. Thank you for your effortpost, user.

sperg

>You should read Frithjof Schuon's perennial view of Christianity and James Cutsinger and Kallistos Ware and the Philokalia and the early Patristics and investigate actual, orthodox Christianity.

I will check these out, thank you.

The reason why people are looking towards the East for mystical inspiration has everything to do with the East/West dichotomy that arose after the European colonization. In very basic terms, following Enlightenment values, the West was considered rational, scientific and utilitarian, whereas the East was considered mystic, arcane and strange.

Thanks to the massive influence generated by the Theosophical Society of Blavatsky and the writings of Aleister Crowley on contemporary New Age, Hinduism became solidified as the mystical tradition par excellence.

The problem is that they didn't understand it – with a limited set of mostly unreliable resources available, which they interpreted according to their own bias, Hinduism became heavily distorted. Evola was no better.

There is, for example, no such as things as seven Chakras specifically in the classic sources. There are in fact several models in the Medieval traditions of Tantra, none of which are considered inborn, but rather something created through meditative practices – see tantrikstudies.squarespace.com/blog/2016/2/5/the-real-story-on-the-chakras?fref=gc

Same story goes for Daoism. When the Manchus invaded China, they wanted to supress the cultural identity of the people, and thus had to dampen the religious aspects – yes, Daoism was, from it's very formation in the Han dynasty, a religion centered around the worship of stellar deities. Even the Medieval traditions of Neidan, devoid of any deities and rituals, centered around meditative practices alone, was seen as a conglomation of Confucianism, Daoism and Chan Buddhism. The Manchus dampened this facet of Daoism by promoting the contemplative study of the Dao De Jing and Chuangzi, an image which most Westerners still inherit.

It is easier for us as Westerners to understand the Greeks and Latins, because, as Shelley put it, we are all Greeks.

It is more difficult to interpret "Eastern" (south of Greece, east of Turkey if you follow Edward Said) because were alienated from their culture. Just take a look at the trainwreck that is Siddharta by Hermann Hesse to see German Protenstantism in guise as Buddhism.

>All the later theological numbskullery about trinity and transubstantiation and incorrect creeds and was-he-a-man is a high tower built by the blind.

What makes Christianity unique, according to Justin Martyr, is that it's a perfect culmination of the old traditions. In my opinion, it's more of a simplification, similar to what Akhenaten did with Aten in Egypt.

The high tower built by the later inheritors, such as Origen, Augustine, Maximos, Eriguena, Aquinas and so forth is an attempt to vest the Biblical lore in Platonic metaphysics and Aristotelian dialectic. The Islamic Sufis and Jewish Kabbalists made the same stunt. Of course, they didn't adapt them verbatim but changed some of content as well.

I wouldn't consider you a good representative of the Christian tradition, but whatever floats your boat.

christ my lord

>I wouldn't consider you a good representative of the Christian tradition
Ouch, user. Can you expand on this? I readily admit to rejecting a lot of the theological dead weight added by Medieval thinkers. Many of them, in my view, badly misinterpret Scripture and over the centuries the weight of a literalized tradition and official decisions of the Catholic Church became ponderous. This is how we have one God but also sometimes three, or proclamations that unleavened bread literally becomes body and blood. Bad answers to bad questions ossified into nonsense doctrine.

The figurative high tower I meant was obviously the Biblcal metaphor but also the fortification of ideas, the sense that a consensus orthodoxy must be defended against heresy. This is completely antithetical to Christianity's own Greek philosophical heritage. Your remarks about the East/West ignorance being due in part to European fascination, the Theosophical Society and Crowley are spot on.

Your reasons for rejecting Christianity are just as dumb as your reasons for initially embracing it.

You fail on both accounts.

>getting into a 45-post long argument with someone who is literally a Nazi tripfag
>will probably reach the bump limit

This place does not deserve its reputation as the most intelligent board.

Sinners need Christ the most, user. Failing that, a willing interlocutor.

I didn't mean it as an insult, but rather as a means of highlighting your seperation from the philosophical framework of the literary tradition.

Christianity is a useless umbrella term: it comes in many flavors and variations. Don't mistake the Catholic Church for Catholics themselfes – there were plenty of deviant heretics who, even though they were persecuted, remained faithful to the Catholic Creed.

Your understanding seems somewhat warped, perhaps due to a limited and crudely caricaturized exposure.

Consider these words from Roger Bacon, for example, in his Compendium of the Study of Theology:

>But unless the general and specific causes of human ignorance and error be eliminated, persuasion is in vain. Speaking first, therefore, of the wickedness and poisonous infection of general causes I say that there are three things that are obstacles to the necessary vision of truth: examples of weak and unworthy authority, the longevity of custom, and the opinion of an unexpert multitude. The first leads to error; the second binds; the third confirms.

Is this the dead weight of the Medieval thinkers that you speak of? Should we then, on the very same scale, throw in the arithmetical and musical works of Boethius, the poetry of Dante and the mysticism of Nicholas of Cusa?

I don't understand. Are you not familiar with the fourfold interpretation of allegory, Biblical and otherwise, as both Hugh of St. Victor and Thomas Aquinas spoke about in detail, beautifully implemented by Boccaccio who drew a wealth of wisdom from the old pagan mythos in his Genealogy of the Pagan Gods?

Should I mention Maximos the Confessor, who synthesized Late Antiquity Neoplatonism with Cappadocian theology to form a systematic framework for the deification of the human soul? Should I consider his inheritor, Gregory of Palamas, who established a meditative practice of emptying the mind through prayer, as dead weight?

I could go on – the metaphysical poetry of Bernadus Silvestris, the lyricism of Petrarca, the political insights of Machiavelli, the art of Albrecht Dürer, Leonardo Da Vinci and Michelangelo, the satires of Erasmus, Ariosto and Rabelais, the poetry of Milton and Blake, the historical acumen of Giambattista Vico and the vigor of Hegel. James Clerk Maxwell and Michael Faraday both carried this same dead weight that you speak of. Nor was it confined to the Western world; a curious book, Masters of the Living Energy by Joan Wilcox, describes the authors interaction with a tribe of Peruvian Shamans who adopted the worldview of Francis of Assisi.

I wish I could dumb myself down, forget the obviously borrowed elements of the New Testamanet, and join these great luminaries in a life of Christ, but I can't.

>rejects Christianity for being Judaic
>cultural meme that Judaic=bad the result of Christianity

>fetishizing race
How's middle school, OO?

>the soil

That's where I stopped reading.

Bacon said my piece more eloquently than I ever could. But neither he nor I were refering to the great works you listed; he spoke of the simple, stubborn human ignorance I have in mind. And this is my issue with the Church, the political inertia that takes root and separates the devout from the love and acceptance Christ spoke of very plainly. The devout where I am are ignorant in spirit because they are Orwellian in groupthink, and the catechism of the Church does not correct this. It enforces it.

You are correct my exposure to Catholicism has been limited and crude, and remains so. My local parish teaches numerology and Marian worship. It is a weird Mestizo syncretism of idol worship, medallions for sale, and honoring Mexican versions of Our Lady of Guadalupe and Our Lady of San Juan de los Lagos in church, and Santa Muerte in private. It is superstition and I reject it absolutely.

I salute your erudition, user.

Yes, you should become a white, racist Hindu. That is a good idea.

Fair enough. I agree with your assesment of the Church in general, but I won't brush off the individual Christians in particular.

Hang yourself you FUCKING retard

kys

Why are you so quick to label the Marian apparitions superstition? Does it bother you to consider that they might be real?

Non-violence isn't a Christian thing. It is sometimes just to use violence, even outside of self defence

Why does everyone in this thread keep misinterpreting what OP is saying and screaming racist and Nazi at every turn?

Is it to compensate for not having actually read any of the thinkers in the OP?

Seems like it as neither Weininger nor Evola nor Spengler were racists.

t. Guy who grew up with a single mother in a capitalist western society working a job he hates alienated from his friends

>evola

Second hand antisemitic Howard without the humor or memorable prose. Faggot.

As if you have read any of Evola. Only a brainlet would give such an off hand criticism to thousands of pages of work.

Fuck off with your crippled permavirgin loon.

Not an argument, use your Wikipedia knowledge in another thread, brainlet.

>watches a Varg video once

Black metal is shit tebehe. In general, Scandi metal is shit. Except the first 3 Amorphis albums.

So far my only solution to this conundrum is to say fuck it and become a Buddhist. Live in a monastery and detach.

But obviously this solution isn't great for society at large. So, I guess if you want to save society, look into the various pagan religions. Go back to the Greek gods, as they have a strong connection with reality per se. Till the lands with Demeter in mind, and plan your work week with Artemis in your heart.

>worship Greek deities
>Zeus fucks your mom
>and your sister
>and your wife
>and your daughter

Pick up a book. It seems your feeble mind could only understand the word "civilization".

>Why are you so quick to label the Marian apparitions superstition?
Don't kid yourself: the Spanish Conquest was a war with the Aztecs. It was brutal on both sides.

The man who allegedly existed and allegedly witnessed the apparition was "Juan Diego," a native Aztec who was already a man when steel-clad aliens from another world came to Tenochtitlan. The myth of the native man who allegedly saw the Virgin Mary was a tool of conversion, a way to drive locals into baptism "for their own good." It was a carrot. The stick was torture of the unrepentant, the burning of native books, the Spanish destruction of icons and replacing them with their own in a genocidal effort to save the souls of the locals. It seems awfully convenient for the Spanish that a model 'good and loyal slave' should exist then, as it did in the American South centuries later.

The image of the Lady of Guadalupe is intensely European, from the pose to the crescent moon. Take a look at Aztec art before the Conquest. No native man could have imagined the image you are familiar with. And how do you know this is a Marian apparition and not the Woman of the Apocalypse, anyway?

>Does it bother you to consider that they might be real?
No, it bothers me that other people consider they might be real.

>that one Christ cuck in the thread

>I went from one species of retardation to the next

Why

Beautiful!