ITT: We get hyped about the return of classical literature and ideals

>its your fault
should've hanged them like your holy texts say

>abandoned all else to master form
which shitty postmodernists are you reading?

My holy text doesn't say hang them. It's by nature they are cursed. AIDS is one of those curses

Uh, you're on a website which is the epitome of postmodernism.

the majority of people will always consist of mouthbreathers who will misinterpret and oversimplify ideas and philosophies to serve their simple desires and needs. Society will dumbify the next big ideology, just like they did with postmodernism

I too am infected.

postmodern's wrap is mostly legitimate ad being banal and without thought

it's literally the contrary, to look critically at your own worldview to examine how legitimate it is.
But ofcourse the mass turned it into muh sexuality, muh gender and muh race

>when o'brien writes clearer nonsense than you
i'd stop trying to contribute tbph

That's how it will though. Postmodernism was an ideology designed to tear culture apart and deconstruct identity; the natural reaction by a people, meaning the white people who were the targets of this, is to put it back together and reconnect with their identity. And that's exactly what's happening now.

Wean yourself off the kool-aid, kid. Your idealism about postmodernism would be justified some time back, but we now understand its origins and intentions since it's run its course, so to express this kind of idealism at this point is just sad.

It kind of feels like politically we're about to enter a new age of monarchs and empires. China and Russia are already quasi-monarchies.

Fucking /pol/ and Peterson have warped this subject so drastically

Nobody wants your cheap neo-classical kitchs. Only hope for our future is the reaffirmation of modernist ideals of progress and striving. For some reason the right has either succumbed to the belief of a shining fake past or is covering their eyes from the failure our current condition. The left might be even worse giving up completely and hoping to fill the emptiness with identeriat politics. How can there be any hope for our civilication if all you fuckers have given up. The is no pretty faux-marble in the ruins for you.

Surely you arent talking about post-modern literature, soms of the most interesting and rewarding ever created?
But then that would mean you are talking about something that has nothing to do with literature, here on a literature board.

>Postmodernism was an ideology designed to tear culture apart and deconstruct identity
that's modernism, bro. postmodernism says that kind of shit will grind your life up like heavy machinery, and humans need and form cultures and value judgments for a reason.

What in the world gave you that idea?

the fact that it's the stated aim of many modernists (the futurists, the vorticists), and that postmodernism arose in reaction to that ideal (e.g. the austrian expressionists) and the themes of most postmodern writings about identity and culture (Flann O'Brien's criticism of identity politics fracturing society from classics and experience, Brautigan's criticism of CalTech while working there)

So, basically, canon.

These ideas are best understood by looking at historical context and more importantly who was promoting them. Futurism and vorticism more or less represented modernism competing with proto-postmodern jewish-led movements like dada. The issue is that a lot of these things blend into each other so it's easy to pick this or that out to make a point, but I fundamentally disagree with the conclusion you're drawing, especially w/r/t postmodernism. Postmodernism is extremely jewish and as such is bent on destroying identity, truth-driven philosophy, narrative linearity, and anything that could be perceived as normal, in favor of subjectivity, maximum obscurity, and nihilism. The postmodern era is also over now so I don't think we even need to apply much guesswork here.

>Futurism and vorticism more or less represented modernism competing with proto-postmodern jewish-led movements like dada.
Both futurism, which inspired vorticism, and voriticism, were both founded before even NY Dada began, and the Swiss organisation started a year after that. You're wrong, unless you like your history non linear. You're dumb and everyone with google can check your dates even if they didn't have a basic understanding of the developments of these movements. D'Annunzio might be based, but he's not responding to some shit that started thirty years after his career.

>issue is that a lot of these things blend into each other so it's easy to pick this or that out to make a point
The issue is your brain thinks 1915 happened before 1889. Stop that if you don't want to be wrong.
>Postmodernism is extremely jewish
Kokoschka isn't Jewish. He fucked Mahler's wife ffs.
O'Brien isn't Jewish, the name might be a hint.
Brautigan was probably taller and more Aryan than you, and he was a weeb.

Stop reading and writing fanfiction about jews; all fan fiction is banned here. Refer to canon, and try to use linear history like an adult.

>You're wrong
No, you're wrong because you don't understand the big picture or the undercurrents involved. Artistic movements, like music genres, don't have set beginning and end dates -- what matters is who took control and steered it in a certain direction to bring about a certain result.

But you're doing exactly what I explained in my post, which is the source of your misunderstanding: by thinking you can pin a few people or dates or works down you can extrapolate the larger concepts and motives, but you're just ending up in the same place every other dunce does who thinks *he's* the one who understands postmodernism, etc. -- missing the big picture.

This is why your central point, about how postmodernism values culture and identity, is so completely off the mark.

Anyway as a Catholic I'm excited for the Church to turn hard to reaction once Francis and the rest of the Vatican 2 generation has died. Shit's going to be wild. The traditionalists are already making up ground at the parish and diocesan level.

complete trite. Post-modernism has mostly contributed aesthetics that are wtihout thought and whose implications and message are banal towards previous thinker's proven ideas and culture.
>you're not britsh
i'd kill myself if I lived in that shithole joke of a monarchy

m8, if you insist that events that happened after the fact influenced the fact, you're not doing history. It's pretty simple: you crying about being wrong won't make history agree. D'Annunzio will not write his books in the 30s and DH Lawrence won't become a writer from the 40s inspired by him because you cry about being wrong, and they'll form the backbone of modern stylistics which deconstructs language and meaning.

You're wrong about what modernism and postmodernism are, and when they happened, and in what order, and who they were done by. The only way to stop being wrong is to make your story line up with the actual history of western canon, and for that, you need to learn some basic shit before posting again. Otherwise I can keep embarrassing you like this with stuff educated sixteen year olds understand. That's good too, and also won't change history proving you wrong.

>This is why your central point, about how postmodernism values culture and identity, is so completely off the mark.
Oh, and it does. You would know that if you'd read any postmodern work, and since you're probably a dumb American, you could probably even read the one about tv, drugs and tennis and feel your tiny intellectual dick being stroked by someone of your same level and culture.

you're delusional, they're gonna keep picking meme popes

>The traditionalists are already making up ground at the parish and diocesan level.
You're not a traditionalist. You're likely not even a Catholic.

>>you're not britsh
>i'd kill myself if I lived in that shithole joke of a monarchy
>in response to Flann O'Brien
Are we meant to pretend Indian and American writers are UK writers too? I'm surprised they published his foreign language books.

I don't think a single person in this thread actually knows what postmodern literature is, let alone modernist literature. two years ago before pomo became a /pol/ meme this thread wouldn't have lasted an hour.

The guy talking about Lawrence and O'Brien knows the difference; he's even picking major names of canon. I don't know if the other main user in the thread knows what a book is, though, so, that does colour things. If the pomo guy has to point out to the jew guy that Pound started the "Make it New" movement, it might get depressing, but most of these thread are subtle "Please explain postmodernism to me" threads by people who feel stupid around the word.

Sorry, but trying to say X began exactly on X date is stupid and you know it. These concepts are amorphous and do not suddenly begin, but evolve over time and are documented later after the entities using them achieve a certain goal succeed or fail, which determines how they are perceived.

Also, your understanding of postmodernism is way off the mark. I don't even know what to say, you're trying to pretend it's the opposite of what it is, what it claims to be, and what we now know it to be given that it's in the can.

I am someone who takes a very unconventional stance on postmodernism, but nearly every type of defender of it who disagrees with me would say you're wrong -- that's how wrong you are. That you're now lashing out like a child hints at why as well. You're out of your league here.

>publication dates are useless
again, please refer to the text correctly and make it one from canon.

>your understanding of postmodernism is way off the mark
i listed postmodern writers from canon who expressly and justly criticized modernism and on what points they launched their criticism. you crying they did the opposite of what you thought they did will not change that's how history happened. neither of us can go back to 1939 and say to Flann O'Brien, hey take the SJW philistine uncle out of the book, it hurts user's feelings, and have him do it. Flann and history just don't roll like that.

m8 if you want to claim IJ is not a postmodern book, you can go try and convince all the daveposters on this board, and get memed to death by lesser parts of the American postmodern canon.
personally, i'd tell you to read better postmodernists, but babbysteps i guess.

I go to Mass every Sunday, go to Confession every three weeks, and say the Rosary every day. Try again.

>every three weeks
not traditionalist.

>.

I'm going to point out yet again that why you continue to fail at understanding the big picture and why your analysis is so wrong is that you think you can say "Flann O'Brien" and magically alter the definition of what postmodernism is.

Try to think for yourself. This is a venn diagram that you're misreading because you're pointing at a few ambiguous dots then concluding you understand the whole picture. You need to take a step back, study, and gain a wider perspective.

What? Where did I say anything of the sort?

It's not my fault you want to argue that Flann O'Brien is not a postmodernist when he's considered the author of the first English postmodern novel, and commended as such by others like Graham Greene and Dylan Thomas who have a greater place in canon than your head pictures for some unfathomable reason.

History probably lies less than you at this point, which makes you practically pathological. :3 Please give me more evidence of your precious babby tears about Western canon being mean by not existing the way you wanted it to. TIA

oh you just responded to a post about IJ with things irrelevant to the text being discussed. i'd suggest doing that on a different board. this one is after all about reading books from canon, not for your boring unfounded opinion. refer to the text at hand and cite properly like a non-savage please.

Not even that guy but you look dumb as shit my man.

>like a non-savage please.

>/pol/ asks for classics thread
>Veeky Forums tells them to stick to classical form if they want to be heard
beautiful

going back, literal regression, is the end user

ignorance of postmodernism is defeat instead you should accept it and build on it ""metamodern"" style

Oh, you literally have no idea what you're talking about. I couldn't care less about Flann O'fuckingBrien and whether or not he's considered postmodern. That is completely irrelevant here.

When was this realization made, though? Right after he wrote it? Everyone just knew right away? "Ope! Postmodernism has officially begun! "

This is what I was talking about: you think you can regurgitate something you heard and sound smart, while ultimately not understanding the context behind what you're attempting to draw conclusions about. Please, stop wasting my time.

>you just responded to a post about IJ
You must have misread something.

I'm aware that there are a lot of stupid people who defend, while not understanding, postmodernism. Congratulations for raising your hand and admitting such, but try to provide some substance next time.

Im not that user, but dude. just go back.
if you're going to reply again at least preface it with a concise, one-sentence definition of whatever you think postmodern literature is so we can get a more accurate reading of how much of an idiot you are

>Flann O'fuckingBrien
He's a founder of postmodernism, whose criticism of identity politics was better than yours, published before yours, and entered into canon. I know you care because you're butthurt all of that is historical fact which destroyed your argument before you even began it.

>When was this realization made, though? Right after he wrote it? Everyone just knew right away? "Ope! Postmodernism has officially begun! "
He's the first English post modernist. If you knew how dates worked, you could see and earlier one from the German sprachbund. You're basically butthurt that people can check historical accounts. For someone who wants a return to the classics, that's fucking hilarious.

>he doesn't know IJ is about tv, drugs and tennis
RAT RAT RAT I SMELL A RAT HE DOESN'T KNOW DAVE

>drugs and tennis
how was it going to be something other than DFW?

I think you should get the basics of punctuation down before you throw your hat in the ring. Why would you expect anyone to take you seriously when you write like a 14 year old girl?

I know that defenders of postmodernism in the current year are bound to be the well-behind-the-curve types, but come on.

>not knowing about Saint David's masterpiece of Infinite Jest
>on Veeky Forums
go ask /a/ if boku no pico's any good

why do dumdums like OP pretend they like books? surely nerds have hurt them before?

not even subtly evasive.
define modernist literature while you're at it

lmao we got him boys. NOW MAKE HIM SCREAM

yes, because all those postmodern block busters are the cause of the problem you're trying and failing to articulate

>I am someone who takes a very unconventional stance on postmodernism,
AKA completely wrong

I'm not criticizing identity politics, what are you even talking about? You're a joke and literally just repeating things that don't even matter. I'm talking about major themes and the larger picture of artistic movements spanning multiple disciplines ... you're going on and on about Flann O'Brien. So I reiterate: take a step back and look at the big picture.

id din't know Harry Potter was postmodernism. TIL thanks OP. I thought postmodernism involved something like self referential irony modelled on the Greeks and study of logos and its multivalent ways, but clearly, it's about wizards.

>look at the big picture.
Look at my uncut dick, Schlomo.

I didn't bring up IJ and that wasn't what I was responding to. IJ has many postmodern elements and may even be mostly postmodern, but it's actually a half ladder step between postmodernism and the next big upcoming movement. I accept DFW's own classification however.

I'm saying that Flann O'Brien criticized identity politics for destroying classical literature and ideals and usurping God from authorship. Don't be so surprised someone postmodern already wrote several books relevant to your thread on Veeky Forums, this shit hasn't been news for decades.

You being too stupid or uninformed to understand something is not something I can control.

>and the next big upcoming movement
Yes, New Sincerity and perhaps post-postmodernism or metamodernism, but IJ is a postmodern book.

You missed a Dave reference on Veeky Forums. You look like Dave in _that_ interview ITT. Try a bandana, cool stuff.

You fucked up, bro. What the fuck other book would be about tennis and drugs on Veeky Forums? Even newfigs know Dave within an hour or two. What the fuck is wrong with you that you think there's some recovery here?

Good for him, it doesn't matter and I don't care. Postmodernism was in the air long before he was ever relevant. There are undercurrents that shape these ideas, they don't just pop up and suddenly exist, and you know that.

And if you could cite a text from canon that proved that point, it might be worth something as an opinion. Without textual support, however, that's a failing incomplete.

Not new sincerity, that's a half step that hasn't gone anywhere and will continue to go nowhere. It's more of a postmodern hangover, beta male thing.

>Good for him, it doesn't matter and I don't care.
>t. I don't care about arguments

Well, canon and literature cares, and if you want to argue against them you're just beating your head against a brick wall that speaks more dead languages than you. Your feelings do not affect canon or history. Sorry your parents didn't tell you that so you grew up being unable to cite a text from canon to make your point and unable to plot an argument. Even the basic trivium without further education would have served you better, but instead you became ill informed shit who is easily proven wrong with DFW of all people. You don't even know enough to know how low that is.

Why do you feel the need to make those asinine comments?

I responded to the first sentence of his post alone. I didn't care that he wanted to talk about IJ.

>Good for him, it doesn't matter and I don't care
>well yeah sure that's fine for famous authors from canon, but i didn't mean that kind of postmodern literature, i meant the kind in my head
ok

>i was just pretending to not know IJ
kekekekeke I can almost see the sweat forming, bro. Just drop it, you fucked up and you can walk away and people will only point it out for the rest of this thread. It'll be fire.

kek; kokoschka was jewish

Are you even listening to yourselves? You're giving the same arguments over and over because you don't have an actual rebuttal, because you don't actually understand the larger context that postmodern literature fits into, which is what I've been consistently talking about from the beginning.

>because you don't actually understand the larger context that postmodern literature fits into
It would help if you provided one.

then why did he live by the visions he kept having? that's like calling Blake an Anglican.

I'm waiting for your rebuttal to be more than
>I'll cry if Flann O'Brien existed in history
If it helps, Flann's about as real as deSelby?

Where did you read that?

It's true. New sincerity is not the successor to postmodernism. It addresses some of the issues with postmodernism but doesn't understand the problems in full, hence why it has never really taken off. The real successor is already here though.

Why did he have the pictures of Veronica and Mary then? I think user's talking about Oskar from the Expressionist mention, and I've never heard he's Jewish and assumed Catholic from the Marian pictures and all. Sauce?

>Flann's about as real as deSelby?
don't be mean to him, user. remember flann cause the newspaper to stop accepting letters for this kind of trolling, user. you don't need to make him an hero for not knowing canon well enough.

good post

I've been from the very beginning talking about postmodernism in the context of a larger artistic movement. Literally about the art side of it, then the guy I was arguing with started talking about Flann O'Brien.

Do you really not see how discussion with people like you is impossible? You make those bold statements and provide nothing to back them up.

*caused
oops

You guys just aren't very smart, are you? I'm talking about important macro ideas here and the two of you seem to only know one guy. Sad.

>in the context of a larger artistic movement
To be fair to user, he pushed the window open as wide as possible to fit your comment about DaDa. If you'd aimed at the French postmodernist era instead of the German one, a lot of people would have overlooked you don't know shit.