Possible ways of improving the thread: >Make/suggest new charts or improve the old ones >Suggest useful links to free sources/scholarship or good websites to learn classical language >Suggest any idea you have to make /clas/ better
Andrew Wright
Previous Thread:
Henry Baker
Paideia: The Ideals of Greek Culture by Jaeger are my favorite secondary sources on Greece, includes pretty much everything, and is well written with interesting interpretations.
Jace Thompson
That's a great fucking book, and it should be in the charts.
Logan Gray
Hey /clas/, what should I read after the Odissey? I have all the playwrights.
Connor Hall
If you haven't already, you can check out some Hesiod. The Theogony and Works and Days are very useful to get used to gods and lots of mythological characters that are not in the Odissey and the Iliad. If you already read the Iliad and the stuff by Hesiod, just go with Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides - in that order
Jordan Thomas
No megafile?
Asher Rogers
Is there a classics megafile? Would you send me a link? That would be very useful
Logan Hernandez
Anyone know about Aristotle's Poetics? I'm interested in aesthetics.
Evan Miller
I do! You got any specific questions? I think it is a great text, but it should not be read as an isolated piece of aristotle philosophy. You need to have in mind at least Nicomachean Ethics for the relation between contemplation and mimesis. Check out Stephen Halliwell's Aristotle's Poetics and The Aeshethic of Mimes, those are great books and can give you a lot of insight on the Poetics.
Logan Morales
Anyone know some good books on the pre-socratics?
Landon Thomas
The Texts of Early Greek Philosophers should be a good edition, otherwise if you are interested in someone in particular, go for the phoenix supplementary volumes should be good (I have not read them, though - I have just been told they are good).
Austin Sanchez
Bought Aristotle: A Very Short Introduction
Gonna read it and then dive into Aristotle, wish me luck boys.
Hudson Johnson
Gib Paul Roche's Sophocles theban cycle plays pls pls
Jose Cox
Good luck, user. Report back with your findings.
Aaron Flores
Anyone know of accounts of exercise routines of the Greeks and Romans?
Preferably primary sources that I could read on perseus or similar, but I’d be happy with a book recommendation, too.
Thanks and happy Thanksgiving to fellow Amerifags.
Liam Lopez
>Anyone know of accounts of exercise routines of the Greeks and Romans? i miss /fitlit/
Gabriel Jones
Nice! Ty
Brody Torres
>reading the preface to Finley's World of Odysseus
Well I can't contradict him but why did the kike have to dispel all the magic?
Benjamin Jones
greece.greekreporter.com/2013/10/09/calisthenics-the-yoga-of-greeks/ >According to Herodotus, when Xerxes sent spies to watch the military camp of Sparta, they said the Spartans exercised their bodies with synchronized and rhythmic movements, a fact that was misinterpreted by the Persians as a form of dancing and therefore a sign of weakness. Now everyone knows how wrong they were.
Jayden Jones
Just wait until you get to Plato.
Ian Hill
>no fun allowed t. greek intellectuals
Elijah Ward
What does he say?
Michael Hall
That the Homeric poems are utterly fictional with very little historical correspondence and that the largesse of Menelaus to Telemachus was just a manifestation of a gift economy rather than heroic magnanimy
Elijah Morales
I forgot to add that from what I recollect from the preface, the contents of my post are the pharaphrase of his proposition. I'm not certain of my reading retention abilities and since then I've only read 1 chapter of the book that emphasizes the fictional and mythical character of the poems which was taken literally by a majority of Hellenes
Robert Reed
If they are utterly fictional why does the generosity need to make sense like it actually happened lmao
Josiah Cox
I was just going on about flexing my vocabulary like a pansy faggot, the point is to treat on how the Odyssey conserves the morals of early Archaic Greece in fictional text
Leo Diaz
Alright. It makes sense but at the same time it heavily depends from person to person. I hate how these "rational" people always need to shit on everything as a form of intellectual masturbation. Have a Pepe now.
Evan Gray
>Author is Jewish, biography included in the book acknowledges him as a member of the Frankfurt school >Uses the BC/AD notation over the B/CE
Samuel Lee
Yes? It really was a combination of both. You were expected to give gifts, but Menelaus still likes Telemachus.
Jaxson Ramirez
pls
I need the last piece of the Greekino cyclic universe trilogy
Wyatt Ramirez
bump.
Julian Taylor
It's not on libgen, user, sorry. :(
Ayden Thomas
Anyone here learning ancient Greek to read the originals?
I've learned latin enough to translate pretty much any author (can't really "read" outside of Caesar, however) and would like to start on classical Greek. Anyone have any good tips/ resources?
Also just finished Juvenal's Satires, good stuff, definitely the most entertaining thing I've read so far (translations don't do it justice at all)
Andrew Taylor
Maybe this is a silly question but why is Apollonius' Argonautica never mentioned in any discussion about classic literature? It's the only surviving Hellenistic epic poem and it had a big influence on the Latin poets. Is it just not as respected by modern scholars?
Brayden Gomez
I just read Antigone and I have a very sad feeling that no Greek tragedy will be able to compare with it.
In this chart you'll find some books you can use to learn Greek.
I think it's mostly because it is considered derivative and manneristic. It's not a bad work in itself, and I think it can actually be an entertaining read. But the Greek is not that beautiful, and it falls short when compared to other long poems.
Daniel Watson
you are right that it's dissimilar, not a very tragic tragedy, a drama from antigone's pov with some skeleton of tragedy from creon's pov
Thomas Hill
What is everybody's recommended translation of The Aenid?
Charles Jones
F I T Z G E R A L D
Aaron Stewart
Learn latin and read it as intended, not to sound pretentious but it's a different experience from reading it in English. The Aeneid is a classic because of its unparalleled mastery of the latin language; the plot is highly derivative.
To me Dryden's translation best captures the beauty and "feel" of the original, more modern translations better capture the letter but not the spirit of the original
Logan Clark
Dryden is quite good, better than Pope's Greek
Hudson Anderson
After Finley, you may read the structuralists like the French triad (Vernant; Vidal-Naquet and Detienne), then their French and Italian followers like Loraux and Cantarella (Eva, the daughter)
Dylan Young
Yes, wouldn't mind creating a discord to get others on board but whatever.
Hansen & Quinn are generally considered the best ancient Greek textbook but it's quite dense. Athenaze is supposedly decent as well. There's Polis, which uses the natural approach to teach you Koine Greek. It's basically like a kids textbook but entirely in Koine Greek. The author, Christophe Rico, argues Koine is a good starting point for ancient Greek, making it easier to then tackle Attic and Homeric. There's audio and video accompaniment as well.
> tfw never uncover archaeological evidence of technology similar to a modern-day barbell and realize that the Greeks were already training the most primordial exercises, the snatch and the clean & jerk
Jace Lewis
You're best off looking to military training, since that is probably what literate people of the day would have been asked to write down. Stephen Pressfield did a fair amount of research on the Spartan agoge for his book gates of fire. You might want to look into that. Also Vegetus wrote to the Emperor Valentinian on the Roman military, giving an overview of their lives from enlistment to their actual career. It isn't exactly detailed, but if you read it you can get an idea of what they considered to be good training. They placed an emphasis on actual combat simulation and marching.
Kevin Foster
Do olympic weightlifting because the Greeks literally trained for strength and speed. They'd laugh at your slow-twitch muscle fibers.
Michael Gonzalez
Read Arete by Stephen Miller. It's a collection of ancient Greek texts that refer to sports. It's the closest thing you'll get to Starting Strength with the Greeks.
Wyatt Morales
Any reason Fitzgerald is a better option?
Jace Morgan
I've been using the Italian edition of Athenaze and have had good results.
Jayden Foster
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Robert Bailey
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Jeremiah Carter
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Nicholas Davis
is this any good?
Carter Barnes
The book is great, I don't know about the edition. Together with the Nicomachean Ethics and the Platonic tetralogy Euthyphro-Apology-Crito-Phaedo I think they are the best text to begin getting into Greek philosophy - and into philosophy in general, I would say.
Zachary Robinson
>Once, when Zeus and Hera were having a fearful quarrel, the limping god attempted the role of peace- maker, filling the cups with nectar for all the assemblage. ' And unquenchable laughter was stirred up among the blessed gods as they watched Hephaestus bustling about the palace
Does 1 greek deity get more JUSTed than Hephaestus?
Luis Kelly
That's what happens when you don't have a father.
Henry Gonzalez
It's more that they laugh with him than at him. Friendly banter and all that.
Charles Hall
Yeah but he got to bone Aphrodite. Then got cucked by Ares
Damn
Isaiah Roberts
Did anyone save my "Resume with the Romans" post from the last thread? I was thinking about making a chart but am lazy
Gabriel Sanders
Amazing. I don't know if there's a easy way to get it in english, though. I read it in my native language.
Ayden Morris
>Several generations of such calculated dealing out of daughters and assorted female relatives created an intricate, and sometimes confusing, network of obligations. That was one reason why the heroes memorized their genealogies carefully and recited them often. When Dioli1edes and Glaucus 'came together in the middle between the two [armies ], eager to do battle', the former stopped and asked a question. 'Who are you, brave sir, of mortal men? For never before have I seen you in glorious battle.' Glaucus's reply was a long recital, full sixty-five lines, chiefly of the heroic exploits and the begettings of his grandfather Bellerophon. His final words were: 'Of this lineage and blood I vaunt myself to be.'
>'So said he,' the poet went on, 'and Diomedes of the brave war-cry rejoiced. ..."In truth, you are my paternal guest-friend of old; for illustrious Oineus at one time entertained excellent Bellerophon in his palace and for twenty days he kept him, and they gave each other fine gifts of guest-friendship. ...Therefore I am now a dear guest-friend to you in central Argos, and you [to me] in Lycia whenever I come to your-land. So let us avoid each other's spears" .-there are Trojans enough for me to kill, and Greeks for you. ' "Let us exchange armour with each other, so that they too may know that we avow ourselves to be paternal guest-friends."’*
>This is not comedy. [...]
It is to me now
David Long
...
Landon Scott
Thanks user for saving it! This will be in the next version of the thread.
Jeremiah Taylor
I just realized I made this a while back. Reposting it since it may be interesting for people in this thread.
Bentley Richardson
Will be added and thank you! Have a happy Plato.
Blake Davis
Is this from Hamilton's mythology?
Gabriel Butler
Not to always be hating on Fagles but I'd say that isn't a very good representation of his verse, and that passage was picked by some news article, I recognize it because there was an analysis of the rhythm and the alliteration being akin to waves. So definitely not random
Kayden Edwards
>archaic Greece is the anarchist's utopia
Who would'v'st thunk
Liam Gonzalez
Those of you who have read them in Greek, which one of these is easier: >Lysias's "Against Eratostenes" >Xenophon's Cyropaedia/Anabasis >Longo's Dafnis and Cloe
Leo Miller
>the plot is highly derivative Well what the fuck else is it supposed to be? It's an homage based on what are practically folk tales. Not to mention that a poet's worth used to be tested by their ability to pay allusion to classic works.
Ryan Wright
Lysias should be very basic
Sebastian Turner
History of Greek Philosophy by W. K. C. Guthrie is a great start, both volumes.
Jose Green
Haven't read Logno, but Lysias and Xenophon are both famously easy. If you are doing it for fun, start with Lysias 7 on the olive stump then go on to Against Eratosthenes
Eli Reyes
>the plot is highly derivative >I have no idea what classical literature is nor what it was trying to do. Names like Conte and Hinds mean nothing to me, and "intertextuality" is probably something I scoff at
Evan Myers
bump.
Cameron White
What is the benefit of starting with the greeks? Honestly... what should one expect to learn?
Would it be a good way of raising children? Starting them out with the greeks when they're like to get them on Jordan Peterson's level when they're in 5th grade?
Zachary Brown
The first and most immediate thing is that there is a lot of wisdom in the Greeks and Romans, even in works that are not directly philosophical. Ancient people saw a lot of terrible things and life - for as much as it had many beautiful things - was more painful back then. Classical authors, though, were very smart men and women: they can teach you how to face hardships in life. If there is such thing as books that can make you a better person, those are the classics.
On the other hand, if you like reading in general, classics will put you into the habit of reading slowly and work calmly through the text. These are books that require work and attention, and learning how to work through them can be very rewarding. It will teach you how to read and approach a text in general.
Third thing, which is maybe the most important, they are beautiful and it's great fun reading them.
William White
to Sacred Kinship: the Greek actually says ‘to Zeus who presides over the family’.
alone among mortals: the translation omits the important point that Antigone goes to her death ‘autonomously’ (auto-nomos), i.e., of her own free will.
I don't get it. Why would the translator omit things and then tell that they were omitted. From Antigone (Oxford World's Classics)
Matthew Cook
What are some good commentaries on the Nichamachean Ethics?
Charles Cook
I've been trying to find a specific prayer from one of Plato's dialogues. I think Socrates is instructing somebody else how to best pray to Zeus and his advice is that we should only pray for what is good rather than for wealth or other things like that since we don't know if they would actually be good for us. I'm pretty sure it's from one of the early dialogues but I can't be sure and some of the details could be wrong.
Any ideas?
Jason Turner
Could it be the prayer at the end of the Phaedrus?
Socrates: Shouldn't we first offer a prayer? Phaedrus: Of course. Socrates: Dear Pan, and all you other gods who live here, grant that I may become beautiful within, and that whatever outward things I have may be in harmony with the spirit inside me. May I understand that it is only the wise who are rich, and may I have only as much money as a temperate person needs. -- Is there anything else that we can ask for, Phaedrus? For me, that prayer is enough. Phaedrus: Make it a prayer for me too, since friends have all things in common. Socrates: Let's be going.
Camden Turner
Then he made them the laughingstocks of the gods,
Mason Murphy
I don't think that one is it because there was a short discussion about how best to pray before actually offering a prayer to Zeus.
John Harris
Maybe is the Pytaghorian (or Spartan I don't remember) prayer in Pseudo - Plato, Alcibiades, II, 138-139?
Thomas Fisher
I'm kind of confused, is there a role for Titans/old Gods like Pontus, Gea etc. outside of just "being there"? Shouldn't Ocean outrank Poseidon (just one of many examples)? Are the Titans/old Gods just the deposed gods of old civilizations, were they ever revered at all?
Brandon Powell
I think that might be it. I would have sworn there was a direct prayer to Zeus but my memory could be faulty because its been a long time since I've read it.
Blake Sanchez
>current read: de rerum natura by lucretius >currently translating: de bello gallico Studying classics at uni. Love the subject
Joseph Jones
Athenaze is what we use at uni John taylors greek to gcse is very stream lined and better for people who have dealt with inflected languages before
Benjamin Richardson
im reading the iliad atm boys. when does the action start?
Caleb Cruz
David west. Prose but english is best conveyed in prose. But the latin is incredible learn latin and you will discover the joys of the aeneid
Camden Hall
How is Fagles translation of The Iliad for someone like me who is pleb as fuck and will not appreciate anything related to metric, rhymes, alliteration and so on. Is there a big loss in reading a version that reads more like prose?
Evan Phillips
Page 1
Hunter Richardson
The Iliad will teach you to appreciate form, even in translation.
Jason Thompson
The action starts on like page 2 when apollo fucks shit up, my dude.
Jack Young
Yes read Fitzgerald instead. It's not much harder.