/clas/ - Classical Greek and Roman Literature Thread

I do! You got any specific questions?
I think it is a great text, but it should not be read as an isolated piece of aristotle philosophy. You need to have in mind at least Nicomachean Ethics for the relation between contemplation and mimesis.
Check out Stephen Halliwell's Aristotle's Poetics and The Aeshethic of Mimes, those are great books and can give you a lot of insight on the Poetics.

Anyone know some good books on the pre-socratics?

The Texts of Early Greek Philosophers should be a good edition, otherwise if you are interested in someone in particular, go for the phoenix supplementary volumes should be good (I have not read them, though - I have just been told they are good).

Bought Aristotle: A Very Short Introduction

Gonna read it and then dive into Aristotle, wish me luck boys.

Gib Paul Roche's Sophocles theban cycle plays pls pls

Good luck, user. Report back with your findings.

Anyone know of accounts of exercise routines of the Greeks and Romans?

Preferably primary sources that I could read on perseus or similar, but I’d be happy with a book recommendation, too.

Thanks and happy Thanksgiving to fellow Amerifags.

>Anyone know of accounts of exercise routines of the Greeks and Romans?
i miss /fitlit/

Nice! Ty

>reading the preface to Finley's World of Odysseus

Well I can't contradict him but why did the kike have to dispel all the magic?

greece.greekreporter.com/2013/10/09/calisthenics-the-yoga-of-greeks/
>According to Herodotus, when Xerxes sent spies to watch the military camp of Sparta, they said the Spartans exercised their bodies with synchronized and rhythmic movements, a fact that was misinterpreted by the Persians as a form of dancing and therefore a sign of weakness. Now everyone knows how wrong they were.

Just wait until you get to Plato.

>no fun allowed
t. greek intellectuals

What does he say?

That the Homeric poems are utterly fictional with very little historical correspondence and that the largesse of Menelaus to Telemachus was just a manifestation of a gift economy rather than heroic magnanimy

I forgot to add that from what I recollect from the preface, the contents of my post are the pharaphrase of his proposition. I'm not certain of my reading retention abilities and since then I've only read 1 chapter of the book that emphasizes the fictional and mythical character of the poems which was taken literally by a majority of Hellenes

If they are utterly fictional why does the generosity need to make sense like it actually happened lmao

I was just going on about flexing my vocabulary like a pansy faggot, the point is to treat on how the Odyssey conserves the morals of early Archaic Greece in fictional text

Alright. It makes sense but at the same time it heavily depends from person to person.
I hate how these "rational" people always need to shit on everything as a form of intellectual masturbation.
Have a Pepe now.

>Author is Jewish, biography included in the book acknowledges him as a member of the Frankfurt school
>Uses the BC/AD notation over the B/CE

Yes? It really was a combination of both. You were expected to give gifts, but Menelaus still likes Telemachus.

pls

I need the last piece of the Greekino cyclic universe trilogy

bump.

It's not on libgen, user, sorry. :(

Anyone here learning ancient Greek to read the originals?

I've learned latin enough to translate pretty much any author (can't really "read" outside of Caesar, however) and would like to start on classical Greek. Anyone have any good tips/ resources?

Also just finished Juvenal's Satires, good stuff, definitely the most entertaining thing I've read so far (translations don't do it justice at all)

Maybe this is a silly question but why is Apollonius' Argonautica never mentioned in any discussion about classic literature? It's the only surviving Hellenistic epic poem and it had a big influence on the Latin poets.
Is it just not as respected by modern scholars?

I just read Antigone and I have a very sad feeling that no Greek tragedy will be able to compare with it.

Am I right?

>i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0086/04/1476211635020.jpg

In this chart you'll find some books you can use to learn Greek.

I think it's mostly because it is considered derivative and manneristic. It's not a bad work in itself, and I think it can actually be an entertaining read. But the Greek is not that beautiful, and it falls short when compared to other long poems.

you are right that it's dissimilar, not a very tragic tragedy, a drama from antigone's pov with some skeleton of tragedy from creon's pov

What is everybody's recommended translation of The Aenid?

F I T Z G E R A L D

Learn latin and read it as intended, not to sound pretentious but it's a different experience from reading it in English. The Aeneid is a classic because of its unparalleled mastery of the latin language; the plot is highly derivative.

To me Dryden's translation best captures the beauty and "feel" of the original, more modern translations better capture the letter but not the spirit of the original

Dryden is quite good, better than Pope's Greek

After Finley, you may read the structuralists like the French triad (Vernant; Vidal-Naquet and Detienne), then their French and Italian followers like Loraux and Cantarella (Eva, the daughter)

Yes, wouldn't mind creating a discord to get others on board but whatever.

Hansen & Quinn are generally considered the best ancient Greek textbook but it's quite dense. Athenaze is supposedly decent as well. There's Polis, which uses the natural approach to teach you Koine Greek. It's basically like a kids textbook but entirely in Koine Greek. The author, Christophe Rico, argues Koine is a good starting point for ancient Greek, making it easier to then tackle Attic and Homeric. There's audio and video accompaniment as well.

youtube.com/watch?v=tJrGaOF-bOw

Erasmus did nothing wrong.

I know of the book, what are you whining about?

> tfw never uncover archaeological evidence of technology similar to a modern-day barbell and realize that the Greeks were already training the most primordial exercises, the snatch and the clean & jerk

You're best off looking to military training, since that is probably what literate people of the day would have been asked to write down. Stephen Pressfield did a fair amount of research on the Spartan agoge for his book gates of fire. You might want to look into that. Also Vegetus wrote to the Emperor Valentinian on the Roman military, giving an overview of their lives from enlistment to their actual career. It isn't exactly detailed, but if you read it you can get an idea of what they considered to be good training. They placed an emphasis on actual combat simulation and marching.

Do olympic weightlifting because the Greeks literally trained for strength and speed. They'd laugh at your slow-twitch muscle fibers.

Read Arete by Stephen Miller. It's a collection of ancient Greek texts that refer to sports. It's the closest thing you'll get to Starting Strength with the Greeks.

Any reason Fitzgerald is a better option?

I've been using the Italian edition of Athenaze and have had good results.

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is this any good?

The book is great, I don't know about the edition. Together with the Nicomachean Ethics and the Platonic tetralogy Euthyphro-Apology-Crito-Phaedo I think they are the best text to begin getting into Greek philosophy - and into philosophy in general, I would say.

>Once, when Zeus and Hera were having a fearful quarrel, the limping god attempted the role of peace- maker, filling the cups with nectar for all the assemblage. ' And unquenchable laughter was stirred up among the blessed gods as they watched Hephaestus bustling about the palace

Does 1 greek deity get more JUSTed than Hephaestus?

That's what happens when you don't have a father.

It's more that they laugh with him than at him. Friendly banter and all that.

Yeah but he got to bone Aphrodite. Then got cucked by Ares

Damn

Did anyone save my "Resume with the Romans" post from the last thread? I was thinking about making a chart but am lazy

Amazing. I don't know if there's a easy way to get it in english, though. I read it in my native language.

>Several generations of such calculated dealing out of daughters and assorted female relatives created an intricate, and sometimes confusing, network of obligations. That was one reason why the heroes memorized their genealogies carefully and recited them often. When Dioli1edes and Glaucus 'came together in the middle between the two [armies ], eager to do battle', the former stopped and asked a question. 'Who are you, brave sir, of mortal men? For never before have I seen you in glorious battle.' Glaucus's reply was a long recital, full sixty-five lines, chiefly of the heroic exploits and the begettings of his grandfather Bellerophon. His final words were: 'Of this lineage and blood I vaunt myself to be.'

>'So said he,' the poet went on, 'and Diomedes of the brave war-cry rejoiced. ..."In truth, you are my paternal guest-friend of old; for illustrious Oineus at one time entertained excellent Bellerophon in his palace and for twenty days he kept him, and they gave each other fine gifts of guest-friendship. ...Therefore I am now a dear guest-friend to you in central Argos, and you [to me] in Lycia whenever I come to your-land. So let us avoid each other's spears" .-there are Trojans enough for me to kill, and Greeks for you. ' "Let us exchange armour with each other, so that they too may know that we avow ourselves to be paternal guest-friends."’*

>This is not comedy. [...]

It is to me now

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Thanks user for saving it! This will be in the next version of the thread.

I just realized I made this a while back. Reposting it since it may be interesting for people in this thread.

Will be added and thank you! Have a happy Plato.

Is this from Hamilton's mythology?

Not to always be hating on Fagles but I'd say that isn't a very good representation of his verse, and that passage was picked by some news article, I recognize it because there was an analysis of the rhythm and the alliteration being akin to waves. So definitely not random

>archaic Greece is the anarchist's utopia

Who would'v'st thunk

Those of you who have read them in Greek, which one of these is easier:
>Lysias's "Against Eratostenes"
>Xenophon's Cyropaedia/Anabasis
>Longo's Dafnis and Cloe

>the plot is highly derivative
Well what the fuck else is it supposed to be? It's an homage based on what are practically folk tales. Not to mention that a poet's worth used to be tested by their ability to pay allusion to classic works.

Lysias should be very basic

History of Greek Philosophy by W. K. C. Guthrie is a great start, both volumes.

Haven't read Logno, but Lysias and Xenophon are both famously easy. If you are doing it for fun, start with Lysias 7 on the olive stump then go on to Against Eratosthenes

>the plot is highly derivative
>I have no idea what classical literature is nor what it was trying to do. Names like Conte and Hinds mean nothing to me, and "intertextuality" is probably something I scoff at

bump.

What is the benefit of starting with the greeks? Honestly... what should one expect to learn?

Would it be a good way of raising children? Starting them out with the greeks when they're like to get them on Jordan Peterson's level when they're in 5th grade?

The first and most immediate thing is that there is a lot of wisdom in the Greeks and Romans, even in works that are not directly philosophical. Ancient people saw a lot of terrible things and life - for as much as it had many beautiful things - was more painful back then. Classical authors, though, were very smart men and women: they can teach you how to face hardships in life. If there is such thing as books that can make you a better person, those are the classics.

On the other hand, if you like reading in general, classics will put you into the habit of reading slowly and work calmly through the text. These are books that require work and attention, and learning how to work through them can be very rewarding. It will teach you how to read and approach a text in general.

Third thing, which is maybe the most important, they are beautiful and it's great fun reading them.

to Sacred Kinship: the Greek actually says ‘to Zeus who presides over the family’.

alone among mortals: the translation omits the important point that Antigone goes to her death ‘autonomously’ (auto-nomos), i.e., of her own free will.

I don't get it. Why would the translator omit things and then tell that they were omitted. From Antigone (Oxford World's Classics)

What are some good commentaries on the Nichamachean Ethics?

I've been trying to find a specific prayer from one of Plato's dialogues. I think Socrates is instructing somebody else how to best pray to Zeus and his advice is that we should only pray for what is good rather than for wealth or other things like that since we don't know if they would actually be good for us. I'm pretty sure it's from one of the early dialogues but I can't be sure and some of the details could be wrong.

Any ideas?

Could it be the prayer at the end of the Phaedrus?

Socrates: Shouldn't we first offer a prayer?
Phaedrus: Of course.
Socrates: Dear Pan, and all you other gods who live here, grant that I may become beautiful within, and that whatever outward things I have may be in harmony with the spirit inside me. May I understand that it is only the wise who are rich, and may I have only as much money as a temperate person needs. -- Is there anything else that we can ask for, Phaedrus? For me, that prayer is enough.
Phaedrus: Make it a prayer for me too, since friends have all things in common.
Socrates: Let's be going.

Then he made them the laughingstocks of the gods,

I don't think that one is it because there was a short discussion about how best to pray before actually offering a prayer to Zeus.

Maybe is the Pytaghorian (or Spartan I don't remember) prayer in Pseudo - Plato, Alcibiades, II, 138-139?

I'm kind of confused, is there a role for Titans/old Gods like Pontus, Gea etc. outside of just "being there"?
Shouldn't Ocean outrank Poseidon (just one of many examples)?
Are the Titans/old Gods just the deposed gods of old civilizations, were they ever revered at all?

I think that might be it. I would have sworn there was a direct prayer to Zeus but my memory could be faulty because its been a long time since I've read it.

>current read: de rerum natura by lucretius
>currently translating: de bello gallico
Studying classics at uni. Love the subject

Athenaze is what we use at uni
John taylors greek to gcse is very stream lined and better for people who have dealt with inflected languages before

im reading the iliad atm boys. when does the action start?

David west. Prose but english is best conveyed in prose. But the latin is incredible learn latin and you will discover the joys of the aeneid

How is Fagles translation of The Iliad for someone like me who is pleb as fuck and will not appreciate anything related to metric, rhymes, alliteration and so on.
Is there a big loss in reading a version that reads more like prose?

Page 1

The Iliad will teach you to appreciate form, even in translation.

The action starts on like page 2 when apollo fucks shit up, my dude.

Yes read Fitzgerald instead. It's not much harder.

Why did he do it, lads...