Reading Dante's Inferno in class for the first time

PS: Although I don't agree always agree with him entirely, the remarks by this blogger on the absence of hope as the missing virtue that prevented 'virtuous pagans' from entering paradise are particularly interesting (as are several other of his posts on Dante):
>wmjas.wordpress.com/2014/07/03/for-dante-hope-is-the-one-thing-needful/

but I don't want to give up on Christianity, I love and believe in Jesus

thanks, that makes sense to me

Read Schuon and Guenon

This question of baptism and hell is one of the things that turned me away from Catholicism. It's a scam dressed in nice robes, based on a misunderstanding.

2Cor 6:2
>"In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

Eph 5
>Follow God's example, therefore, as dearly loved children and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Hell is an eternal torment upon the Man who does not know love, which was helpfully personified in Christ. To the hateful, Hell is every waking moment. But it can be turned aside, the moment of salvation is ever present if one is willing to hear the word and follow in his ways. That is, love. The Church has always used Christ as a carrot and Hell as a stick, for purposes of fundraising and political power. They propagate a literalist misunderstanding that is a disease upon Man.

your op was half about baptism dumbass

also this

You might enjoy this. It gives a much more honest and coherent answer than whatever your parson did.

orthodoxyindialogue.com/2017/11/23/will-the-non-christian-be-saved-by-metropolitan-george-khodr-translated-by-najib-coutya/

>The question remains: “Can anyone go to heaven? Would he be completely saved without going through Christ?” The sure answer from a Christian perspective is that somehow you have to pass through Christ. He said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” This requires preaching; it is a command in the New Testament. However, we saw that Christ saves whom He wishes to save, with or without baptism. In other words, the work of Christ is achieved, through the Church, for those who have seen and joined the Church, and can be achieved by Christ loving whomever He wishes to love. In that, Christ does not need the church-establishment to save whomever He wishes to save. He has the ability of invoking His Spirit, His vision, and His love for all human beings, whether they belonged to organised religion or not.

I hope I have swayed you, even just an inch!!!!

In recent times Catholicism is turning away from this understanding. It's a remnant of Christendom that Anglicans and Orthodox Christians are increasingly rejecting. It's only a matter of time before Catholicism rejects it too.

I think dying next to Jesus would count though, right? also wasn't the whole point of him going into hell (aside from dying for our sins) to save all the people who hadn't been in touch with the holy spirit, because Jesus hadn't been born yet?

>mistaking love (the concept) for love (a mythological spirit with supernatural agency)

Why can't you faggots make any sense. Christianity needs a good $2 broom to sweep out all the lazy philosophers who can't even grasp their own terms.

read the second story of the Decameron before you type.

There have been years upon years of corruption and unholiness within the Church for the last 2000 years, yet it still stands?

If the Holy Spirit was not with The Roman Catholic Church, it would've collapsed within weeks lol.

also,
>uses capital C

Thank you fair critic

Where did it make that mistake?

There are different kinds of hell, the kinds of people you speak about are probably in the 'good part' of hell, they'll still be in the grace of God, they just won't be blessed with the gift of seeing God himself because they weren't baptized, but they're not suffering.

You shouldn't worry much about those questions. If you're a christian, you assume that God is all-powerful and all-good, therefore He can do no wrong, He's the perfect judge so He knows what's best.

when considering the evidence, it's most likely that heaven isn't real

>There have been years upon years of corruption and unholiness within the Church for the last 2000 years, yet it still stands?
san marino has existed since 301 AD.
catholics have the worst apologetics by far.

San Marino is not an institution.

San Marino seems to be tiny compared to the reach of the Church, considering it is trying to save everyone.

You didn't even make an argument; I'm going off your implication(s)

this too

>a state is not an institution
catholics are literally braindead. this is why i went orthodox.

>catholics have the worst apologetics by far.

Macaulay was not a Catholic, but he makes a case somewhat along the lines user was alluding to:

>There is not, and there never was on this earth, a work of human policy so well deserving of examination as the Roman Catholic Church. The history of that Church joins together the two great ages of human civilisation. No other institution is left standing which carries the mind back to the times when the smoke of sacrifice rose from the Pantheon, and when camelopards and tigers bounded in the Flavian amphitheatre. The proudest royal houses are but of yesterday, when compared with the line of the Supreme Pontiffs. That line we trace back in an unbroken series, from the Pope who crowned Napoleon in the nineteenth century to the Pope who crowned Pepin in the eighth; and far beyond the time of Pepin the august dynasty extends, till it is lost in the twilight of fable. The republic of Venice came next in antiquity. But the republic of Venice was modern when compared with the Papacy; and the republic of Venice is gone, and the Papacy remains. The Papacy remains, not in decay, not a mere antique, but full of life and youthful vigour. The Catholic Church is still sending forth to the farthest ends of the world missionaries as zealous as those who landed in Kent with Augustin, and still confronting hostile kings with the same spirit with which she confronted Attila. The number of her children is greater than in any former age. Her acquisitions in the New World have more than compensated for what she has lost in the Old. Her spiritual ascendency extends over the vast countries which lie between the plains of the Missouri and Cape Horn, countries which a century hence, may not improbably contain a population as large as that which now inhabits Europe. The members of her communion are certainly not fewer than a hundred and fifty millions; and it will be difficult to show that all other Christian sects united amount to a hundred and twenty millions. Nor do we see any sign which indicates that the term of her long dominion is approaching. She saw the commencement of all the governments and of all the ecclesiastical establishments that now exist in the world; and we feel no assurance that she is not destined to see the end of them all. She was great and respected before the Saxon had set foot on Britain, before the Frank had passed the Rhine, when Grecian eloquence still flourished at Antioch, when idols were still worshipped in the temple of Mecca. And she may still exist in undiminished vigour when some traveller from New Zealand shall, in the midst of a vast solitude, take his stand on a broken arch of London Bridge to sketch the ruins of St. Paul's.
- Macaulay, review of Ranke's 'History of the Popes' (1841)

Full text of review:
>books.google.com/books?id=W8IAAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Of course it's unfair, fucking retard. Not everyone can get into heaven. "God" is Arabic. May you rest in flames, infidel.

>It's unfair

>I'm so smart that my theory of justice is better than the one I'm imputing on God.

Jesus talks about a place of fiery torment for souls in the Gospels. He talks about it quite a lot, actually.

>The number of her children is greater than in any former age. Her acquisitions in the New World have more than compensated for what she has lost in the Old
this is literally the problem with the catholic church.

>the Church is literally 'catholic'

She teaches all nations, not just one or a few. That's not a problem, literally or otherwise. That's simply the result of a concentrated, centuries-long pursuit of the Church's original mandate: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations" (Mt 28:19).

>Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

the catholic church: slipped up, got luther, ruined europe, gave up on teaching the truth in order to sell a comforting lie to degenerates, and now placifies third-world retards with their gospel of tolerance and free gibs. at some point, having the biggest tent has to be an indicator that what you're teaching isn't the truth, especially when you're part of a religion that teaches the end is nigh and that

>God looks down from heaven
> on the children of man
>to see if there are any who understand,
> who seek after God.
>They have all fallen away;
> together they have become corrupt;
>there is none who does good,
> not even one.

I'm a little confused: is this shaking your belief or is it simply putting you at odds with God?

>third-world retards

Some of those third-worlders are better Catholics than most Europeans. I've almost completely had it with European Catholics.

>christcucks can use the internet now
I hate 2017

>Some of X are better than most Y, therefore Z
Cathlet Logic

What's the rate of Mass attendance in France? In Italy? In Germany? How many of them genuinely believe in the Real Presence, or follow the Church's teachings on birth control?

You're right in one respect: the Church too often preaches a gospel of tolerance. But they preach it to the West, not the third world. The third world has more rigor than the flabby West, and that's why they're going to refresh the Church. African pope hopefully soon.

lmao dude you need to read some more

Cardinal Sarah becoming Pope would actually be incredible.

if mass attendance is so important, why does mexico suck so bad? church participation has everything to do with superstitious retards living in primitive economies, and their wide-open schedules.

the catholic church lost europe when it abandoned the truth for power, now it just passes out charitybux and get-into-heaven-free cards to brown people to stay relevant. sorry, but ms-13 gangbangers with rosary beads aren't holding it down for the Christian faith

>primitive economies
>implying it isn't entirely within the scope of Catholic thought to be utterly opposed to capitalism

how can you believe that the other abrahamic religions are other versions of christianity when the new testament says that you can only get to the father through the son.

>based theocracy
i love moral leftist christians so much, thank you i love christ. i love god, thank you so much for praying for all of us

>Ungrateful sinner, learn today that if you are damned, it is not God who is to blame, but you and your self-will. To persuade yourself of this, go down even to the depths of the abyss, and there I will bring you one of those wretched damned souls burning in hell, so that he may explain this truth to you. Here is one now: "Tell me, who are you?" "I am a poor idolater, born in an unknown land; I never heard of heaven or hell, nor of what I am suffering now." "Poor wretch! Go away, you are not the one I am looking for." Another one is coming; there he is. "Who are you?" "I am a schismatic from the ends of Tartary; I always lived in an uncivilized state, barely knowing that there is a God." "You are not the one I want; return to hell." Here is another. "And who are you?" "I am a poor heretic from the North. I was born under the Pole and never saw either the light of the sun or the light of faith." "It is not you that I am looking for either, return to Hell." Brothers, my heart is broken upon seeing these wretches who never even knew the True Faith among the damned. Even so, know that the sentence of condemnation was pronounced against them and they were told, "Thy damnation comes from thee." They were damned because they wanted to be. They received so many aids from God to be saved! We do not know what they were, but they know them well, and now they cry out, "O Lord, Thou art just... and Thy judgments are equitable."

Mass attendance in Italy is much higher than any other western european country. And the Church still has a lot of influence there.

Well, that's certainly quite sobering.

Unironically, thanks. I needed that.

Here is the text in full:
>ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=620118&language=en

>he's describing reality, therefore he must be making some sort of ideological claim
God has not blessed catholics with intelligence

then fuck off to Africa

The Christian view of salvation has changed over the years. If you read on the pre-schism theology you might be surprised. Substitution atonement is a doctrine developed by Anselm of Canterbury, prior to this salvation was views more as a rescue act than a debt payment, especially in the Byzantine church. Check out Christus Victor by Gustaf Aulen. It is based on the classical theory of attonement, which was the reigning theory until the 11th century. If this holds true, then hell is not a forgone conclusion because the power of hell over humanity has been broken. This does not automatically award salvation to all, but it does not automatically condemn all humanity either. I'm not sure on it personally, and I'm actually talking with a priest of the Orthodox church to understand it a bit more.

Sure seems to be a lot of tension and frustration in the Latin church these days. hmmm

i love the orthodox church but i want to find a white girl to marry

Another way of saying it is the death, burial, and resurrection was Christ trampling down death, breaking open the gates of Hades and conquering it. Salvation is theosis, or deification.

come home