What's with the stereotype of "God of the Old Testament is evil"...

Then what about God telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac?

I think the same thing. I believe that the idea of "religious dogma" is utterly false, and God's laws can be understood by the dedicated.

It's possible for an entire people group to become so corrupted that God destroys them. As for the animals, one of the reasons God wanted those peoples destroyed was because they were committing bestiality.

In that story, the Word and Son of God is partly revealing the mystery of his eternal birth from the Father, as well as teaching Abraham, and picturing for us, that He Himself would be offered up as a sacrifice, and be raised from the dead.

Who said God was done developing? Who said God knew or understood what He was doing could be considered evil? Who said God knew how to hold dominion over the Earth properly, at the time? Who said God doesn't look at that period of Himself with regret?

Who said God isn't still "growing up?" Who said God can't evolve?

Another important aspect to this story requires historical context. Abraham lived around 4000 years ago. At the time and for many hundreds of years after, the religion of Abraham and his descendants was novel in its rejection of human sacrifice. Human sacrifice was nearly universal in the ancient world. So another appropriate way to view this story is that it's God demonstrating his rejection of human sacrifice. People who balk at the idea of God using this story (where no one died) as a way to teach us don't understand how bloody and depraved all other religions of that era were.

Why didn't God and the people of Israel just sit down and talk out their differences? Why just kill them? Tbh the Old Testament would have gone a lot more smoothly if there had been active dialogue and the acceptance of diversity

you must have not finished reading that story. Abraham never actually sacrificed Isaac, God sent a goat at the last minute.

you mean testing Abraham's faith thereby solidfying both his and Isaac's faith in a just God?

Mass slaughter I was fine with. I don't know who is deserving of wrath or not. But pedophilic sex slavery is another.

Numbers 31:17-18

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

pedophilia isn't necessarily evil

The parts where he tells his tribe to rape / murder the other tribe. because they were evil. and they deserved it.

honestly there is no moral justification for rape unless your morals come from "god"

Mostly cause muh fags and something vague about killing. Its ironic that people will criticise the Bible through the lens of a distorted Biblical morality. Biblical morality makes sense in the context of the Bible. So when bourgeois 21st century 20 somethings apply their hot takes to something in the Bible they've heard about 3rd hand the result is "muh evil god".

>thou shalt not kill
>lol but you can kill these dudes is fine

>Murdering your dad cause you're mad at him and killing hostile enemies is the same thing
this is your brain on gay liberalism. This is Trudeau tier gay liberalism

Moses commands the non-virgin women to be killed because, as he said in verse 16, "they were with the sons of Israel and caused them to depart from and despise the Lord's word." As for sparing the young virgins, if you read the scriptures and understand the society they came from, this means they were either especially innocent, or especially pure. This verse is anti-pedophilia.

>The parts where he tells his tribe to rape / murder the other tribe
Neither of these happen in the scriptures. The first is especially ridiculous. The second is ridiculous because there's a legitimate need for the death penalty, and when those people are killed, it's not murder.

come home, brother (pic related)

It's a proxy for "the Old Testament is ethnocentric, focused on Jews as a chosen people, and I am not a Jew so what the hell does that have to do with me?".

And they're right. Christians should have dumped the "Old Testament". Unfortunately, after 70AD, most Christians were Jew converts, so they made sure to keep the old "Scriptures" in.

>muh gnostics
Found the Judaiser.

What a bunch of bullshit.

The impression was as old as the ancient Romans you faggot. This claim is dating at least from the 2nd century AD if not the 1st. Several early Christian denominations rejected the Jewish Scriptures.

so God was a moral relativist?

how many levels of delusion do you have to be on to interpret "keep alive for yourselves" as anything other than sex-slavery? God is literally saying "do with them as you, my chosen people, please." Bible scholarship is nothing but shifting goalposts and revisionism.

if God said you can have sex with these children then it's fine, that's how it works faggot

>just finished reading Exodus for the first time 20 minutes ago
>God gets angry at his own multiple multiple times and plans on mass murdering them simply for being "stiff-necked"
>Moses has to keep reminding God of his covenant and promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and God only relents after being reminded
>Moses still orders 3,000+ of his own people slaughtered anyway and God doesn't care

I'm really trying to reconcile the Jealous God of the Old Testament with his omnipotence and omniscience, but it's difficult. I've been praying through Psalms and half of them seem to be about crushing the enemies of whoever is praying with a rod of iron, etc. etc. Are these just the failings of the writers who are applying their own human emotions to God, and their own hatred for their enemies, or is there legitimacy to God actually having irrational human emotions?

How could a God that created all people favor some rather than others by slaughtering them, when these other groups never even had the opportunity to learn about the God of Moses? How can a God who knows and has power over everything forget his own covenant and experience these kinds of emotions?

Evil? What are you, some sort of dualist heretic?

Because degenerate moderns have fallen for the vile necromancy of the life lovers, thus believing that anyone that causes pain or death are inherently unjustified.

It is actually thou shalt not murder. Otherwise every soldier or persons otherwise tasked with upholding the law and enacting violence on behalf of society would be in hell.

Read "Is God a Moral Monster?" by Paul Copan.

What is important to remember when reading the Old Testament is that God is working progressively with the Israelites and his laws/commands at a given time do not necessarily reflect His Creation ideals (this is essentially Copan's thesis), and that there are different points in the Old Testament where the authors of the various books are embellishing their own cultural mythos (ie. it is possible this event didn't really happen).

>its a gnostic misreading Paul post

Seriously, brother, accept Christ as God. What do you have to lose? You already (apparently) believe in some form of the gnostic heresy.

>how many levels of delusion do you have to be on to interpret "keep alive for yourselves" as anything other than sex-slavery?
If you automatically interpret that sexually, your mind has been destroyed by porn.

Serious question, not trolling. How do you deal with the notion that the Lord is basically like any wargod/deity in the area at that historical time?

>exercising free will makes you a gnostic heretic

damn bugged fruit mechanics!

> (You)
Doesn't seem like a trolling question to me at all. That's something I've heard people say, but it doesn't bear out when you compare Christian scriptures with those of contemporary religions. It doesn't bear out in the scriptures themselves.

If you believe that God's actions in the Old Testament are evil, you're a heretic. Don't know what you're even on about. Do you want Christians to not think gnostics are heretics?

Its pretty stupid to consider having an opinion about the bible gnosticism.

no u

>"if you automatically interpret that sexuallyyour mind has been destroyed by porn"
>i have no argument
>im incapable of literary criticism
>but you're a libertine, so i win

Scripture states that God is perfect (Matthew 5:8) and unchanging (Malachi 3:6).

>It doesn't bear out
Could you explain how? If you reead the Moabite Mesha Stele it describes Chemosh in the exact same way YHWH is described in Old Testament war passages. If you read the Canaanite Ugaritic inscriptions, there is loads of overlap, for example Baal is described as riding on the clouds, just as YHWH is. By the way, the Ugarit inscriptions predate anything in Bible (they're c.1300-1100 BC)

Something very off about the "Gnostic" Nag Hammadi Library... Jesus wasn't human? The crucifixion didn't happen? Definitely a good thing that that "religion" died off.

yeah, those kids who made fun of that prophet's baldness certainly deserved to be torn apart by bears. little fuckers. i bet they won't do that again any time soon.

i find it helps to look at the bible as if it had been written by someone like Kim Jong-Un. or Trump. you can disregard 99% of it as self-serving exaggeration.

it's tribal propaganda, after all.

...

Believing that the God of the OT is "evil" (i.e. not God) is quite literally gnosticism.

When you look at how Jews interacted with their God in the OT, it's not exactly a loving relationship. Just as often as God gives good advice and people follow it and are rewarded, you see Jews jewing God out of his own commands (see Moses on the mountain) and God forcing people to do unsavory things (the pharaoh). He hands out some really wicked punishments, though in the context of the work, they're really nothing, since there's an afterlife.

It's impossible for me to reconcile Christianity to the Bible

Deuteronomy 6-13.
Yeah. Good prevailed here.

Is God /ourguy/?

>It's possible for an entire people group to become so corrupted that God destroys them. As for the animals, one of the reasons God wanted those peoples destroyed was because they were committing bestiality.
This is so dumb, children of every age are ordered to be killed at various times in the hexateuch, how can a 2 year old be corrupted so much they deserve execution? Why does being fucked by a weirdo mean a donkey has to be killed?

It only makes sense as a typical ANE sacrifice via warfare, there were simply no qualms about killing women and children, it didn't need to be justified back then. The Moabites did the same thing, devoting towns to destruction for Chemosh. Trying to apply a moral justification that makes sense today will never work because the authors of the hexateuch didn't think like that.

just a social experiment bruh

I know God didn't allow the sacrifice to go through. My question is rather about the practical application of this story (I was arguing with my dad about this story and this is the story that solidifies his rejection of religion). From the materialist perspective, what kind of people would Christians be if they followed God's word and went all the way through with a child sacrifice? This story is hard for me to find an answer for.

Kierkegaard's got you covered. Teleological suspension of the ethical, etc.

Read Hyperion by Dan Simmons

ty friends

Who says they arent?

Is there any acknowledgement in the Old Testament that YHWH is not the only god and that there are in fact other gods that exist?

We know that God is perfectly just. What is the death of the flesh compared to the eternity of heavenly glories? If you don't believe in God, then it never happened anyway, so there's nothing to be upset about.

>From the materialist perspective
The Scriptures can't be understood from a materialist perspective.

No. It talks about gods worshiped by others, but makes it they're either not real or demonic.

King David killed men in battle and murdered a man, and the Scriptures tell us that he's in heaven.

Yes

Psalm 82:1,6
>God has taken his place in the divine council;
>in the midst of the gods he holds judgement
>I say, ‘You are gods,
>children of the Most High, all of you;

Psalm 89:7
>Who in the skies ranks with the LORD?
>Who is like the LORD among the sons of the gods?

Deuteronomy 32:8
>When the Most High apportioned the nations,
>when he divided humankind,
>he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
>according to the number of the gods;

Yep, when there's no answer just retreat back to "God is just." I'm not upset, you're right, I don't think the Penateuch or Joshua are historical, but they're incompatible with current Christian morality is all.

The very first Chapters of Genesis. And God said, let us make man in our image.

The Church have tried to whitewash stuff like this (its the royal 'we' etc). The original Hewbew for God in genesis (Elohim) is an actual plural word. There's no cognate. Yahweh is the 'God of the Jews'. The other races have their Gods. You have to really want not to see this stuff.

This is best understood by reading the OT as what it is: ancient jewish literature. YHWH is Jewish wish-fulfillment. They were a small and powerless people amidst mighty Kings and Empires, in a world of slavery and racial war. Of course their God isnt nice and moral - nobody in their world was, much less a God/Pharoah/King.

Genesis 3:22 is the most explicit
>Then YHWH Elohim said, ‘See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil

Anyone here read ancient Hebrew? Can you parse Genesis 9:21-25? A Rabbi scholar besically told me that Canaan ass-raped Noah, Noah wakes up and says wtf, cursed be you Canaan, and then Canaan says whoa whoa whoa wait a minute Noah. I come into this tent, you're completely naked and passed out, with your old hairy man ass exposed. Yeh I fucked you up the arse and had an absolute whale of a time, but what did you expect?! Then Noah ponders for a moment and assents Yeh, I guess you have a pretty good point there desu, get the wine out. Is that accurate? The christian bibles edit this shit out.

>Is that accurate?
Well, what the text literally says is that Ham saw his dad naked. The sexual assault interpretation is a common one, it takes "saw the nakedness of his father" as a euphemism for rape.

In reality, it's not clear why Noah curses Canaan, firstly the supposed rape is not explicit, it might just be a case of disrespect (Shem and Japheth are described walking backwards while covering their father, they deliberately didn't look at him), secondly Canaan is cursed instead of Ham who actually did the deed. A lot of Genesis is obscure, so we don't know for sure what the passage is about.

Can God not still be considered perfect while still changing/evolving? Particularly as the Alpha and the Omega? If He is the beginning and the end?

As for the quote from Malachi, I still don't think it rejects my idea. For example, even though I grow and "change" and my ideas or behaviors or philosophy nay adapt over time, I'm still me. I'm still myself. That never changed.

I wonder if the pilots from WWII that dropped the atomic bombs are in Hell. That'd be kind of a shit deal since they were just following orders.

>Psalm 82
The gods are Church members, made sons of the Most High (v6) by new birth in baptism and adoption through Christ. Verse 7 talks about the sons of the Most High dying.

>Psalm 89
Here's a better translation:
7 For who in the clouds shall be compared to the Lord,
And who among the sons of God shall be compared to the Lord?
8 God is glorified in the counsel of saints; He is great and fearful toward all round about Him.

>Deuteronomy 32:8
8 When the Most High divided the nations,
When he scattered the sons of Adam,
He set the boundaries of the nations
By the number of God's angels.

This is why it's important to have a Septuagint OT.

>when there's no answer just retreat back to "God is just."
>Heh, nice try, Christian. Jokes on you, I'm the arbiter of truth and I decided that no answer was possible before I even asked the question. Ergo your answer was an admission that there is no answer. Nothing personnel, kid.

>they're incompatible with current Christian morality
That's true. All of us fail to follow God in some ways.

No, change implies there's something God lacks, some "space" that he can "move" into. Perfect = complete. God lacks nothing.

well that defense didnt work for the concentration camp guards, did it?

Well yeah. If the US lost the war and the pilots went on trial for war crimes they'd be sentenced to death. I was more wondering what God's judgment would be.

I get what you are saying but I'm asking you if you're applying that perspective to the end or the beginning? An old man is different than he was as a child but the old man WAS indeed a child once. He was the child just as he is the old man. Are we not made in God's image? And, if we indeed are, is it not reasonable to at least consider the possibility that God would go through something similar to the growth of a Man?

it's a false dichotomy

God is a collection of several people's shitty fanfiction and some people are shitty at keeping him in character or rolling over other people's characterisation. When I read this years back I realised that most people have either never read the bible or purposefully ignore most of it due to the large amount of genocide it advocates.

Abraham (Abram at the time) was most likely surrounded by human sacrifices a lot. So when God calls him, it seems pretty believable.

Also, everyone thinks Issac is this like 7 year old boy. In Genesis, as Abram and Issac are walking to the mountain, Issac is carrying wood. It's sacrificial wood for burning. Do you know how much wood you need to burn an entire body? A lot. But wait a second, how in the fuck is a small child carrying a shit ton of wood? Alas, Issac probably wasn't a young child. He was most likely around the age of 17-22.

Issac is a mature young man. Issac could have easily stopped Abram from sacrificing him, dropped the wood, or ran. But he did. Issac was willing to be sacrificed. Why? Jewish historians seem to think that Abram and Issac expected a sort of reimbursement, perhaps Abram would've sacrificed Issac, but Issac would be resurrected. They were willing to go through with it, because they thought it was going to be good, which it was.

because Israel's sins were its own punishment. Do bad things and bad things will happen.

God tried and tried to talk to them! It was through the prophets, but people don't like being told what they're doing is wrong.

Also, Israel literally means "to struggle with God"

HEY GUYS ATHEIST HERE well guess what I discovered aurelius augustine burgess calvin aquinas chesterton yeah turns out none of them read the bible like at all how do I know this you ask well just on my first skimming of exodus (recommended for me to read to btfo dumb evangelicals by my buddies on /r/atheism, thanks guys!) I immediately discovered some pretty huge problems and the fact that none of these "great" christian authors admit that their religion is totally busted is pretty much just solid proof that they never read the book because as I said it took me literally five minutes of reading to come to the conclusion that this was bullshit
exegesis? w-what's that?

God seems like a giant piece of shit when you try to justify shitty actions in his name via propaganda. Who knew?

Inb4 fedora

>Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

>Rev 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

These signify the eternality of God, who is the origin and destiny of all things. Our origin was in God, and our end state will be in God. Verse 8 makes the eternal meaning clear when Christ says He is who is, who was, and will be. Beginning and End shouldn't be understood temporally. You

>Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

The Bible says over and over again that God doesn't change. There are no scriptures which support your ideas about God. You might as well be speculating about the qualities of Hephaestus.

wtf are you doing, this isnt funny at all

But he does change TO US, doesn't he? I mean as Christians the God we see in Genesis and Exodus was very clearly the God of the Jews and the jews only - the God who cares about us all is NT.

Looking the Bible as Literature the Yahwist God and the Priestly one - never mind the Jesus incarnation - are just not similar characters at all.

Alright, brother. We've arrived at the point where I can't tell if you're being serious or not. I'm going to (unironically) pray for you, that you find the true faith.

I'm sorry, I do understand how you come to that conclusion based on those passages but I just read them different. And I apologize I'm unable to explain what I'm trying to say clear enough.

I, too, am speaking of God on an eternal scale. Outside of time. Particularly, linear time.

I'll leave the debate because, again, I understand and can appreciate how your reading/interpreting those scriptures. I'm not saying you're wrong, either. I mean I am, in the present, exist in the same sense that I existed as a child and, God willing, will exist as an older man in the future. Even though I'll be at different stages of existence, I'll still be myself and have been myself. In my beginning and my end. My imagination and my dreams as a child were my creation just as much as the dreams and imagination I sit here with today are my creation just as, again God willing, they will continue to be when I'm old.

Again, not saying you're wrong or I'm right. I'm still trying to reconcile some of these philosophies myself. Obviously I'm still struggling to enumerate and elucidate them properly.

*enunciate not enumerate

This was not me but u appreciate him attempting to understand where I'm coming from.

*tips cross*

what

think about it, God has been revealing His plan incrementally. He sent tons of prophets to relay His message and they were all slaughtered. imagine if He tried to throw down everything all at once.

God was speaking to tribal violent people, revealing His basic plan of love wouldn't make sense. People were not ready. So over 2,000 years, God began to reveal HIs truth little by little.

so

OT GOD AND NT GOD ARE NOT DIFFERENT
THAT IS THE BIGGEST AND FATTEST FALSE DICHOTOMY AH

But why does God express remorse over destroying humanity when he forms the Noahide covenant? Genesis 8:21-22.

because God is emotional.

so he's a woman?

So he's emotional and reacts to those emotions but he's incapable of or beyond change?

>The gods are Church members
Where are you getting that from? They're literally called Elohim: gods. If you're referring to Jesus' quoting of the psalm, that's a pharisaic reading, which reads extra meaning into scripture regardless of its context. Originally, the psalm is quite explicitly about God judging the other gods. It's analagous to the Canaanite divine council overseen by El, but of course the other gods are seen as inferior in the monolatrist Israelite view.

>This is why it's important to have a Septuagint OT.
So you limit yourself to one textual source because that backs up your views more? You're reading the text in a purely devotional way and obviously aren't interested in the scholarship of it. That's fine for religious praxis, but that means our discussion will go nowhere.

Part of Christian theology is the idea of theosis, wherein we are deified, or divinized. We become gods through grace, entering into greater union with God. The Psalms are poetic and God isn't autistic, so forcing a literal reading onto every word can be misleading. It's also possible that David adapted a pre-existing song for the worship of God as well. That's why Tradition is so important to Orthodox Christians. These types of things are hard to be understood without continuity between the ages.

Are you of the opinion that the Cannaanite pantheon devolved into Yahwehism during the stay in Egypt? Do you believe Joshuas campaign was real?