When I use the term "conservative" below, I mean the term as applicable until Buckley, Thatcher...

When I use the term "conservative" below, I mean the term as applicable until Buckley, Thatcher, Reagan and the neocons redefined it. "Conservativism" today supports individualism (hence their sympathy for Ayn Rand) and belief in an ideal economic-political system that could be applied to the whole world, making it ontologically distinct from conservativism which was partially and importantly defined by rejection of these things.

Conservativism starts as a modernist (those who think Joseph de Maistre is a medievalist, don't know what they're talking about) reaction to the French Revolution. However I will note that it comes from two very distinct angles: one angle is Anglo-American conservativism, exemplified by Edmund Burke, John Adams and Russell Kirk. Here conservativism is a Whig (for what that was in the 18th Century, which was much more heterogenous than in the 19th) school of thought which embraced both the Glorious Revolution and the American Revolution. Hence its critique of the French Revolution is in contrast to those. From an Anglo conservative perspective, these revolutions were required to protect the law. The French Revolution, by contrast, was not about upholding the law, it was about subverting it by anarchy, extrajudicial murder and mob lynchings. Consequently Anglo conservativism places enormous value on rule of law, of following the law as (for lack of a better term) dogmatically as possible. Judges ought to interpret the law by intent, the executive cannot go beyond her constitutional authority, etc. Law is only to be changed by the means the law prescribes for her change.

In contrast, Continental conservativism critiqued the French Revolution more on the basis of defending the deposed government. So instead of defending written law, Continental conservativism is more concerned with unwritten law and justifying regime. Whereas the American conservative might say Lincoln's suspension of habaes corpus is valid because the Constituion permits it in time of rebellion, de Maistre is overtly concerned with when the state can suspend it *without* explicit provision in written law. For de Maistre and Carl Schmitt, the central legal question is not what the law permits, but when the state can and ought to act outside written law.

This leads to some startling differences. Solzhenitsyn, for instance, said America is too "legalistic", which might shock an American conservative, seeing as Solzhenitsyn's writings (to us) suggest the USSR's major problem is the state being completely beyond the law. Solzhenitsyn would say no, the problem is that the state cared about ideology rather than God.

The last conservative (in the older sense) POTUS was Richard Nixon. An Anglo school conservative is likely to strongly approve of much of his policy as a president, while seeing his criminal behavior as dangerous and subversive, whereas a Continental school conservative is more likely to sympathize with G. Gordon Liddy's defense of it.

Conservatism of any type is for cowards. Viva la Accelaracion.

The "dark enlightenment" has about as much credence as anarcho-capitalism.

Label of conservatism is difficult since it entails both a sentiment or an attitude to political life, as well as a philosophy, a self-conscious tradition encompassing many different doctrines. Contradiction is inevitable. Your post is pretty good OP but I can’t help but find the lament of the way “Buckley, Thatcher, Reagan” etc. appropriated the term misguided. It’s indistinct by nature. I think the failure is in trying to cement a political identity in such an inherently unstable, relative term. Buckley, Reagan etc. do embody some of the characteristics of conservative assumptions of human nature and the roles of social and public life, as well as brutally depart from others. In tracing their genealogy, “conservatism” is important, and at the same time misleading.

No, the Conservative Mind: From Burke to Eliot, makes a very sound case for conservativism as something concrete. So does Edmund Burke: The First Conservative, which highligts crucial principles which define classical conservativism across the board.

I do not "lament" the label being appropraited anymore than I lament "socialism" being apropriated by liberals as a label. But I do think it important we understand the strong distinction between conservativism and "conservativism," as well as socialism as "socialism".

Can you compile a list of recommended conservative authors that is exhaustive and encompasses the ideological/philosophical divisions that you've explained in your post? It's very interesting and I want to learn more

I am indeed working on such a chart and plan to post it in pic form upon completion.

I can hardly contain my excitement

not him, but
>I do not "lament" the label being appropraited anymore than I lament "socialism" being apropriated by liberals as a label
There's another one. You say liberals. What do you mean by that? Surely, you wouldn't classify the likes of Sanders and Corbyn as classic liberals.

It should be up next week

Nope, I would not. 18th Century Whigs and Thomas Jefferson are classical liberals. Libertarian has more come to mean that. I would use "traditionalist" to refer to classical conservative, but a lot misconstrue it to mean antimodern

I fully agree with your historical definitions, but then you mentioned ""socialism" being apropriated by liberals as a label". Who are these "liberals" that you speak of?

Meant 19th Century Whigs. 18th Century Whiggism just meant opposition to the king having excessive authority

Social democrats

oh, okay. I guess every party in the Anglosphere today is "liberal" by that loose definition.

I really do feel like we need to meditate on taxonomy. These terms are thrown around with such levity merely to co-opt or deter one's tribal nature from various parties.

As a traditional conservative in the Anglo sense, I have very little in common with American Republican party supporters, or contemporary British Conservative partisans.

Ah, no. Don't conflate social democracy with one-nationism. Huge difference.

>As a traditional conservative in the Anglo sense, I have very little in common with American Republican party supporters,
I do agree with this, though. I am closer to the Constitution Party. British conservativism varies with me, but Scruton and Peter Hitchens are up my alley

I'm not. I thought you advocated for historical definitions which is why I can't bring myself to call social democrats liberals. Because I see liberalism in the classical sense of the word.

You did call them liberals though, which is why I assumed you're using a very 'libera' definition of liberalism under which I don't see why any contemporary Anglo party wouldn't fall under.

That's because Scruton and P. Hitchens publicly condemn the Conservative party for daring to bear that name. So yes, they see Conservatism as do we, in its Anglo historical sense.

>You did call them liberals though
Mm, yes, but I did so using leftist terminology out of courtesy to the leftists who struggle to distinguish themselves from social democrats.

> So yes, they see Conservatism as do we, in its Anglo historical sense.

Yes, but at this point I do not think the title can be reclaimed. Neither can liberalism, which is why "libertarianism" has proven a fine label for classical liberal. I do not know of one that works for us, though. I would say "paleoconservative" but that stresses America rather than the Anglo tradition proper.

>every party in the Anglosphere today is "liberal"
yes

Reign of terror: best day of my life

I take your libertarian point, but you'd piss off some libertarians of the European tradition with that label. I'm assuming you're referring to libertarians in the American sense, but even then, a bit of a stretch to equate Ancaps with classical liberals; the latter is a larger umbrella term and has sophisticated implications that can be contradictory with Ancapism.

As far as ourselves... I've conceded defeat a long time ago. No one in my generation is even aware of this political species and I'm tired of discussing politics with people across all the political spectrum who get their politics solely from molymeme clips and chomsky snippets. Or fucking kendrick lamar or some other pop person. My fault for not putting in the work when it counted so I could go to a top 5 Russell Group Uni.

>I'm tired of discussing politics with people across all the political spectrum who get their politics solely from molymeme clips and chomsky snippets. Or fucking kendrick lamar or some other pop person
This is a very conservative sentiment. This very issue a major concern of contemporary classical conservativism

And this, I might remind you, is why a liberal education is so vital

Indeed.

You can't educate an average man or any but the most brilliant of women.

>Burkean conservatism
>aka dude "we'll do what liberals want but only a little bit at a time" lmao
also stop making these shitty threads R Cam your faggy twitter account is enough.

Holy shit, somebody on lit posted a reasonable, intelligent political position and didn't yell "cu ck" at people who disagree.

but, and i must ask: what does this have to do with the jews?