Does free will exist in heaven?

Not the same thing. I never had control over the game or the players. I'm just an observer. Is that all God is?

CCC 847-848:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

CCC 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

>WE GOT IT ALL

AlanMoore/Watchmen/DrManhattan.pdf

Yeah, God doesn't have control over our free will in the same way I don't have control over whether Derek Carr scrambles to dump the ball.

your point?

Right because God would do that? He would send people to hell because they had no introduction to him at all?

Most of those Native Americans probably went to heaven, they reverenced wilderness more than humans do now.

The fact is, that God has intelligence like we do, he isn't retarded. He just can't send his message out constantly. It's why you have only a handful of worldwide examples of his majesty. But they are proofs nonetheless. I mean, this isn't really that radical. He can't constantly be coming down to prove he exists all the time, otherwise what is the point of faith?

Even the Daoists believed in a singularity of God. Trust me, word has been out for a while that he is real.

Fun fact: within 10 years of the miracle of La Virgen de Guadalupe, about 10 million natives freely converted to Catholicism. Praise God :-)

I wonder what occurs when an all powerful God's plan collides with human free will.
If you were born into a Muslim family I'm sure you would be defending Allah to the death right now. How do you know you have chosen the correct God, and have not been misled.

Muslim's believe in one God too. Most religions are right. Turns out Christianity may be the one i am most at ends with. They conflate God with a human, Jesus Christ. And then that is where they make their mistake.

The only reason God is discussed along with free will is because of omniscience. Omniscience entails knowing the past, present, and future path of every microscopic particle. Since matter obeys laws, it should be expected that the molecules in your brain follow only one path. Do you not think it's possible that a creature can have a complex brain, allowing it to be aware of its thoughts as they come, never having true choice but at the same time believing it has choice? For how can an animal remove the illusion of free will without reason? Do you really think that you have an infinite amount of possible choices? Why is it more likely that you will keep breathing rather than stabbing your eyes out? It's actually impossible for you to do some actions, because your brain gives you no reason to. Ultimately, your actions simple were the results of the greatest chemical desire in your brain at that moment. God knows your brain, so of course he will predict what you will do.

This implies that god cannot know the future until experiencing it. Read above, and tell me why God couldn't just calculate the future pathways of molecules in the brain.

>I wonder what occurs when an all powerful God's plan collides with human free will.

What does that even mean? I guess for the humans who used their free will to reject God have rejected God's plan for themselves. For those who used their free will to love God, they have accepted God's plan for them.

>If you were born into a Muslim family I'm sure you would be defending Allah to the death right now. How do you know you have chosen the correct God, and have not been misled.

Genetic fallacy.

Are you kidding me? So you believe in God and don't believe in free will?

That is both evil and retarded. Go read some Kierkegaard.

I mean for someone to not belive on God is to be in accordance with God's "unchanging"plan, which I find to be unfair.

for (You)

That's a human attempt to understand something of God's level, something transcending our physical world. It's a nice cheeky approach to the concept.

To add to the analogy though, perhaps you saw a tweet of the final score then you watched the dvr game

>Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Also, I'm not a Christian. I only believe in an infinite, incomprehensible, and necessary Creator. I don't see the need to attribute human qualities to God.

Oh okay; See you're stuck in that predestination mindset. Don't you think the most power being would be able to allow free will and know the past present and future?

Too, having knowledge of something is not causal. As a human, I have knowledge of two guys who shook hands yesterday. By knowing that, did I cause it to happen? No.

If God knows past, present, and future, of two men shaking hands in each time period, did He cause them to do so, implying no other outcome could happen? No.

If you were high on a building looking down and saw two cars approaching head on for a crash, did you cause the crash? You know it will happen, but your knowledge of it certainly is not causal of the crash.

You're only trying to say free will is still possible with God's omniscience, rather than giving any explanation as to why or how free will exists. Through what mechanism can a brain bring about effects that depend on no causes? If every effect depends on causes, God has no reason to time travel, because he can calculate the future based on the present, as one might calculate the final position of every ball in billiards, given that every variable was known.

I feel your stance take away God's agency. He is the creator of this universe, and additionally if he knows everything that could ever occur, he must be setting this universe up in a way where the only things that ever occur and the only things that could ever occur.

Say I placed a ball on a hill, once it rolls down can I blame that ball for its actions? To God we are like inanimate objects, I propose that since he knows all and is also the creator, he placed all of our balls down knowing where they would roll.

I think the Bible is mostly correct. I think there is a single God. And I think he is like a human. And I say this, because of how we were created. We were made in his image, you cannot forget. It is important that the greatest thinkers thought of the great gods as being emblematic of people. Plato thought this. That God would be like the people he ruled over. In this way, you can see how he would love things, and have mercy over some but not all things. In his mind, his judgment is best. And in ours as well. Rejoice, for I can guarantee for any problem you think of, God knows how to best judge it and from what angles. And unlike our courts, he can see through your minds.

Now. I definitely think we have free will. In so far as we are defined by the synthesis of our body and souls, instead of by just our material realm (body), then our spirit will be free. We can focus on prolonging our soul's purity and focus on doing things that make it thrive and live. Like Kierkegaard instructs us, to focus just on the body is complete materialism: the epitome of determinism. We become an utter product of our environments. To focus on what is just and what God wants though brings us a pure sense of freedom. And this comes when it will. And when it comes it comes great. I know in my life, thanks to God's direction I have improved it manifold. And that is just one proof.

>red herring

I was elaborating on how one might reconcile free will with God.

Bud, you started with:
>Can someone clearly explain how this is a free choice when God supposedly knows everything we will do before we are born, therefore he knows who will and will not enter heaven since before the original sin

I'l address your red herring if you want...

Does not God enjoy the journey? Must he not?

>he must be setting this universe up in a way where the only things that ever occur and the only things that could ever occur.

To account for free will, it'd make more sense to say God has set this universe up in a way He intended, but since we are free beings, He allows our decisions to happen and still have good come of His layout.

And no we are not like inanimate objects to God lol. The Christian POV claims that humans are made in the Image and likeness of God unique from any beast or any creation with intellect and free will reflecting God's Image. That seems to be far from inanimate objects of God's.

>CCC 600:

To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

>see this

Where is the proof for a soul? Do you think it's impossible for creatures like humans to not have souls? What even is a soul, and how does it operate? Why is the body predetermined, but not the soul? Wasn't the soul also caused by God? If the body has no freedom, how much does the soul have? 100%? How much free will do average humans have, after the soul's freedom and body's lack of freedom combine? 1%? 20%?

There is simply no reason to anything you have said. You think that we are made in God's image, but what brought you to that conclusion? Certainly God doesn't have our appearance, or else it would seem he evolved from monkey Gods! Why should he have emotions, which not only humans but other animals have? You say he is perfect, but how would you correct me if I said he were imperfect?

Do you not see how you have no argument, but wishful thinking?

Just to clear it up it wasn't him that posted that it was me.

But Islam and Judaism believe the messiah being god made human is possible, it just hasn’t happened yet.

Firstly, I did not write the post you referenced. Secondly, no one cares if God can time travel or not. Unless of course you can now establish how humans can act without restrictions.

Okay, thanks man

> materialistic cucks are literally *this* retarded

fpbp

hmmm, it seems I would have to invoke God as to why free will exists. I'd also imagine one could make a very very strong inductive argument as to how free will does exist

I have given you Genesis and every Greek philosopher, the Tao te Ching, and the Koran as evidence we are made in Gods image ya dingus.

Now to the point about souls, we have them because they are part of our spirits. And spirits cannot be nullified. To focus on just the body and mind is to negate that aspect of us that is a philosophy, the aspect of us that moves us and seeks truth, and to focus on just the soul we lose track of ourselves and lose the joys of focusing and enjoying materialistic aspects of reality like the various pleasures. Surely to focus on just one side would be spiritual suicide and your life becomes less important. The spirits of those with God are therefore free because he ties the body to the soul as a positive unity, and is the relation of the soul and body relating to itself, as it were, infinitely.

Instead of insulting him could you tell me why he is wrong? Maybe you have some intuition on this other than "muh Bible says it so it's true"

intriguing video on physics and free will (layman level). Technically not everything can be determined given Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle (at least at a quantum level).

youtube.com/watch?v=Jint5kjoy6I

The big dualist issues haven’t been properly explained away, so a dualist perspective of the mind is still plausible.

Us being made in gods image, and the perfection of god are both definitional elements of a god.

God can't judge your decisions if they're based on randomness. Try again.

We are not made in god's image and he is imperfect. Why am I wrong?

Because you are a whiny contrarian child who is going to hell. Please go away and never discuss religion again. We are all three of us giving you rational responses and you turn them all down in a two sentence response. Do you know how annoying that is?

Arguing against determinism in not an affirmation of free will. Try again. But if the universe is completely deterministic, how would something like the Uncertainty Principle exist. You could determine position, but not momentum or you could determine momentum but not position.

That is clearly a problem with determinism— not in regard to human free will, but a problem within itself.

Do you think that when people exercise free will, they can be called evil or good, since they were not simply predetermined by physics? If so, why are some more evil than others? If not, what is the purpose of Hell?

How does the uncertainty principle negate causality? Even if it did, why bring it up if randomness is obviously not free will? Or do you think there is a connection between randomness and choice?

so just because humans can't exactly determine the mechanics behind the motion of the particle means that the particle could've moved in a way that it didn't?

I don't see how you combat the argument that everything that happens is the only thing that could've happened, and that it's the necessary result of physical reactions before it. This doesn't change if humans can or can't understand it exactly at the moment

Yes to the first question exactly.

The next question is answered thus: because God gives everyone chances and God is somewhat hard to find. And because of this, instead of spending time to try and find God, as they relate to him, they think the people who worship a being with no direct relation to himself (because he has spent no time on his spirits relation to God) odd and stupid and proceed to try and rationalize the idea of God in some materialistic way, completely negating the soul. Or try and exhort God as a solely immaterial being, which is not true, and if you are not using the world around you as proofs of Gods existence then something is seriously fucked up

heaven is the ultimate freedom, freedom from all free will

Even if there is an 'unmoved mover' or some shit like that why is the god necessarily the Christian God? Why isn't he some random God from ancient times, or Allah, or any of the other 'divinely revealed' deities? Or just some impersonal divine concept that set off the universe?

And if the Bible is the word of God, why does it contradict itself and have outdated morals? Was God not powerful enough to make a totally transcendent book? It still has artifacts of the past like slavery, like 'stone girls who aren't virgins', and 'don't let women speak in church', and God commands people to kill thousands of innocents.

Until somebody can answer these and similar questions, and nobody I've seen has, I don't see how Christians can believe what they do.

Allah is the Christian god.

Now I’m smiling because you and I both know how remarkable it is that three of the biggest religions in the world all worship the same God. And many others worship a god monotheistically, like buddhism or Daoism.

This is no coincidence and exists for a reason.

"Let us take the simplest case in which we think we can predict the future. Suppose we have a particle with known position and velocity at the present instant. Assuming that nothing interferes with it we can predict the position at a subsequent instant. ... It is just this simple prediction which the principle of indeterminacy expressly forbids. It states that we cannot know accurately both the velocity and the position of a particle at the present instant." -Eddington

Uncertainty Principle kinda shits on causality cuz we can't predict the particle's momentum (where the particle is the causer) if we know it's position. So the desired effect, momentum, is unknown.

Bringing up the Uncertainty Principle is a critique of determinism not an affirmation of free will. Actually read my previous post.

But don't you think some people have an advantage over others? For example, an average-minded wealthy kid raised Christian is more likely to be a Christian than a certain above-average intelligence kid that's poor and has never gone to church. This isn't a good example, but there are limiting factors outside of our control that contribute to our beliefs. And as Romans 9 says, how can we resist God's will? Where is our fault?

Stop confusing epistemology with ontology. Uncertainty doesn't do the job you want it to, although quantum indeterminacy does.

I think that God allows for these things when he judges. God is the greatest of judges. Where you didn’t think it was possible to measure things on a scale, I am certain God has a way which is completely equitable and fair to everyone measured. Now please stop trying to outsmart the being watching you type these things right now. He is watching me too ;)

aren't Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and quantum indeterminacy the same thing tho or share a fuck ton of over lap?

There is one God. There are people throughout history who have had mystical experiences and philosophical insights concerning this one God and the nature of reality. They have tried to set this down in writings and teachings, along with some subjective, historically relative pieces of customs and advice they thought would be good for the society they were in to follow. People who didn't understand then codified these teachings into rigid, stereotyped, fossilized religions after the deaths of these people. If a Muslim is a pious, self-aware person and experiences God and a Christian is a pious, self-aware person and experiences God, they're still experiencing the same God.

Is there a glimpse of truth to be found in these 'codified' and 'fossilized' religious texts? I feel like these are the only places to look for the morality that comes from the 'one God', other than meditation and mystical feelings. If so, how do you separate the mystical and transcendental messages from the ancient, fossilized nonsense?

>heh, you lived your life believing that murder is the solution to everything and that I show myself through the smell of your feces, but that's ok, because you believed in a concept of a God so strongly that I just had to welcome you to heaven

Why don't christians fuck off to pol and his?

Are you fucking serious? The point was lost on you.

It would be reasonable to say that we shouldn't expect to find reason in God, since he is so much greater than we are. But in that case, why discuss these topics? If I knew that Jesus rose from the dead, why should I care how reasonable the Bible seems to me, a stupid human? I would unquestioningly accept everything the Bible says, or any other religious book, if only I knew the divine miracles were true. Shouldn't all religious discussions be centered on this issue, then?

A Muslim doesn't believe in Jesus' resurrection, the whole point of Christianity. Or are you implying that we don't need Jesus?

Reason as much as we can while presupposing God and if there's a bump, have faith and ride it out until an explanation or argument is put forth. Some people keep much more faith than reason and others use much more reason than faith. There's no clear answer as to which is better