Why do most great religious works come from non "protestants"?

Seriously how could he miss this one

And the other 1.7 billion of us hate these fuckers and want to see them chopped into mincemeat and fed to pigs.
Hello robot

Robot? Fuck you buddy

no u

...

You live in a protestant society that had the great fortune to exist during the era that information storage and transmission technology exploded several times. How can you not smell your confirmation bias?

They have the money to shill their ideas to everyone. Nobody else is funding mosques and shit all over the world.

wow thanks for perspective user.
Would you mind explaining what the problem with modern sufism is?
I see people calling it heretical but surely it's always been heretical to fundie sunni?

And that's how user and user got married.

>Some British dude

You sound like a reliable source

Oh we know. A lot of us are looking forward to bitcoins rise for this reason, because it signals the end of the petrodollar and fiat currency. Of chose or won't be a smooth transition and many of us will inevitably door, though we've become good at that.
Oh hey its cool. I'm just about to sleep, but I'll try.
The problem with it is that its become tainted by the same protestants we're discussing, ironically. Not completely, and if you dig you will find the teachings of the ancient Sufi masters (you want to find Tazkirat al Awliya, in English, Remembrance of the Friends/Saints, friends as in friends of Allah). The actual Sufi movements of the modern day are a mix of obvious frauds, dogmatic pseudo-Salafists, the seriously mentally-ill (not even making fun of them, there are some tragically ill people who are disgustingly taken advantage of by "Sufis", this is what turned me off the whole thing, at least in part), idiots who think they are new age Muslims, hipster Muslims, oh and the largest segment by far, the fucking liberal Muslims who think Sufism is their safe space from actual Orthodox Islam. Fuck those faggots, after the Salafists, we're coming for them.
Its heretical to Salafists because they are extremely dogmatic and puritanical cunts. Their typical rebuttal is a Hadith about not allowing any innovation in Islam as all innovation leads to the Fire (Hellfire).
The idea of a fundie Sunni didn't exist until very recently, at least outside of Saudi Arabia. Fundie Sunni typically is the same as Salafi btw.
Seriously though read Ibn Arabi and those books I mentioned. Real Islam these days isn't located in the high rises of Saudi Arabia, please just know that. Real Islam has retreated to the dinner tables of the "Middle east" (a bullshit geopolitical term but most people understand it, historically it was the Near East which makes more sense) and also to the rural areas of the Middle East and the old Khurasaan region. Our "clergy" is nonexistent these days, in that no one looks to them for guidance anymore, whether its Sufi or not.
Well like I said, I'm about to sleep and I'm very tired.

Idries Shah
Quintessentially British

Oh shit thanks autocomplete.
*Of course it won't be a smooth transition and many of us will inevitably die..

Not that guy but I spent several years trying to find "the real sufism" that you might read about in ibn Arabi etc. I went india (my homeland) and spent some time with different groups, mainly naqshbandis then went to Egypt and stayed there for a year, learnt Arabic and spent time with different sufi groups, then went to Yemen and stayed in a sufi 'lodge' for two years.

Basically what I concluded was that sufism doesn't really exist anymore. The currently existing sufi brotherhoods are little more than devotional cults that spend all their time praying at graves, seeking after dreams and visions and focus on outward observance to the exclusion of any real esoteric teachings. If there were any real esoteric teachings in the past, the understanding of them has been lost and only the books remain, which Muslims all disparage or discourage the reading of.

People spend their whole life seeking dreams and praying at graves, doing thikr, but nothing changes. After 20 years they will still be at the mercy of their 'ego projections', unable to control their anger, and full of negative emotions and tending towards fanaticism, although non violent, as most religious Muslims do.

You swear too much for a "religious person."

This pajeet knows, approved.
I'm a paki btw, sup my vedic bro.

Sup bhai

>"Religious person"
I didn't claim I was one. I don't claim to be anything other than a Muslim. Yes I swear. I've seen some shit and no longer give a fuck.

Ok fair enough

Are there any arguments within sufism about how sufism has turned out?
Do you think it's the fault of the sufi's themselves or outside pressure?

Not that I know of.
Both. And its inevitable. Nothing stays the same, it's futile to even expect it to. What annoys me is that modern Sufis try and pass themselves off as something they're not.
Salafis do the same. No Salafi will admit being a Salafi though. The way Salafis deceive is by trying to pass themselves off as the *only* legit Muslims.
I'm gonna stop ranting and sleep now.

Traditions all degrade with time.

Perhaps the Catholic Church was ok at one point.

Sufis all argue with eachother like all other Muslim sects, fighting about things that have no significance like whether or not it's ok to revere muhammads family etc..

I think it's not necessarily anyone's fault, just some shaykh will have come along and conveyed something to his students who didn't fully understand, and then their students understand less until any real understanding is lost, so no knowledge of psychological or spiritual principles remain and it is all attributed to magic, dead shaykhs, or just "Allah did it", and they keep doing the same practices that they have been handed down without understanding the principles needed to be in operation, but just believing it will work because they have been told it will, but no spiritual change can take place and they remain the same.

If you go to India you can watch Hindus praying at graves of saints or gods, throwing candy at the grave, touching it to get blessings, singing hymns, sufis are exactly the same.

Basically what I am trying to convey is that any knowledge of spiritual principles regarding the mechanism of Awakening, as you would find in Buddhism, are totally absent in sufism now, if they ever were there. It's all just magical thinking and seeking blessings to get more reward with Allah now.

Wait are you the indian user?
What was your families religion and what's yours now?
I'm actually extremely interested in hinduism, do you regard it as being empty spiritually?

Yes I'm the indian. My family are Muslims and Hindus.

Now I don't consider myself a muslim as it just seems to lead nowhere. I still respect muslims but I need something else. Advaita Vedanta is one of the best things I have encountered. I recommend the Ashtavakra Gita and Advaita bodha Deepika. The psychological commentaries on the teaching of gurdjieff and ouspensky is one the best things ive found in the western traditions, and indo-tibetan Buddhism has a lot in common with both of those philosophically, so no I find Vedic spirituality much better. The teachings on nonidentification or non attachment are totally absent in sufism, which is one factor which I consider to be the reason why sufism can't effect any change in a person.

According to Salafis, literacy is haram.

According to them logic is Haram.

Are indians like you common?
I mean I know you see devotion to gods, but are there young indians today, who for example, read the veda's and upanishads?

Not common. But you can certainly find indian people reading these texts today. The Vedas are still taught to children in more traditional Brahmin families. I grew up in the west and was raised being exposed to both religions but wasnt forced into any. My parents wanted me to focus on worldly things like becoming a doctor.. religion isn't very important to them.

Disagree. Most of that stuff comes instead from "unattributed quotes".

>that insane paragraph

I refuse to accept that Mohammadeans have inner thoughts.

Those opinions he is expressing aren't his own. Hes repeating the same talking points most English speaking Muslims parrot.

wow is this true?
pls give more info

You just need to browse Islamic forums for a while and you will see a pattern.

That's just not true. I don't even talk to Muslims these days. Those are my opinions and observations.

I thought you were going to sleep.

I was.
LOL
What Islamic forums are these? I haven't gone to those dumps for over a decade.

Read the Book of Mormon

>Most of the great religious works of Islam come from orthodox sunni scholars
Most of the great works came from Sufis such as Rumi, Sanai, Attar, Hafiz, Al-Ghazali, and Ibn-Arabi.

Have you read Ihya Ulum Ad-din? I don't know how people can read that and still think Ghazali is somehow a Sufi.

Most of these names are unknown to common Muslims. They are mostly only concerned with fiqh and Hadith

For the most part it's only white western academics who talk about these people. Except perhaps ghazali.

>white western academics
Oh fuck off with your muh-white bullshit. Those names are commonly known to all Muslims who study Sufism and Islamic history and philosophy at a very basic level.
That's about as babby tier as you can get.

Islam is protestantism avant la lettre so...

No it's not

Have you ever been to Central Asia? Uzbekistan or Tajikistan?

What remains of the Sufi shrines and cultures is beautiful. This woman is a pretentious idiot however.

Kiekegaard was agnostic in regards to everything but agnosticism.

She's a kike.

Let's consider some theological points then:

Scripture alone? Check
Justification by faith alone? Justification by faith could be seen as the dominant justification in the Quran. Good works certainly don't play as central a role as in Catholicism.
Universal priesthood of believers: Sure.
Predestination: Definitely

And some historical points:

Iconoclasm: Yup
Fundamentalism: Yes

Wrong on literally the first point

Perhaps Muslims living in European language speaking countries. In the Arab world it will be hard to find copies of Hafiz or Rumi.

>Kierkegaard
>Agnostic
Shut up you fucking retard

Are there any modern poets who write in the same style as Rumi and Hafiz?

I really love their style but ending each poem with something like
>Oh I love you so much Shams
kind of kills it for me.

quran and ‘things mohammad said’ is still scripture. the biggest sects of islam’s way of approaching the quran is similar to the method of many protestants regarding the bible.

Islam is basically an attempt at reforming Christianity by someone who didn't know that much about it or the bible.

...

And yet, they did a much better job of it than the Christians did. Didn't manage to muck up the One god thing, which admittedly shouldn't be hard but somehow it happened.