About 440 pages in to this, out of 1100

>A work of fiction by a Jewish dyke rekts 160 years of theory, revolutions and wars
Look. Are you fucking serious?

Who makes these images? What campus on earth has not only a Marxist and Socialist club, but specifically a Leninist club. Stupid

I've only read Part One of Atlas Shrugged but I liked what I read.

>I WANT TO READ IT CAUSE IT BTFO LIBTARDS HAHA

>believing in equality

>Pages: 1088 pages
>Wordcount: 548,100 words
>The average reader will spend 36 hours and 32 minutes reading Atlas Shrugged at 250 WPM (words per minute).
haha no

>Beliving in freedom under a capitalist system

That is rather rich coming from Stalin.

Ayn Rand was kind of an idiot. Ancaps are retarded

Regardless of your political or economic ideology, Ayn Rand is a shitty fucking writer. Seriously, even if you're just trying to be edgy and cool by reading her, you're probably mentally retarded if you can stand her writing for more than 10 pages. Her plotting and characterization especially are absolutely dreadful. I don't understand how anyone makes the effort to read this dumb bitch anymore, except for narrow-minded pseudo intellectual white kids.

What? He's saying that economic freedom comes before civil freedom. It's totally in line with what he did and what he could do.

>lives under the rule of communism
>food scarcity fucks up her brain development
>comes up with the exact opposite of communism which would end with most people starving to death anyway
A real genius, that one

>t economic freedom comes before civil freedom.
Henry George said this as well but it lead him to laissez-faire capitalism

It's like you have no idea about stalinism. Gulag, collectivization, personality cult, all the nice things. A typical western-wannabe-marxist view on history of socialism. Read more history books, m8.

you're a nobody with a high opinion of yourself, well done

>everyone character agrees with Ayn Rand is a superhero
>every character who disagrees with Ayn Rand is a sniveling moron
How is this good writing? It’s childish at best

>There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

... person is not living in fear of losing his
>job
How many Soviet soldiers of WWII ended up in gulags instead of going back home to resume whatever work they had been taking part in? Not only that, but with conscription, many men had been ripped from their main job.

>home
Gulags existed in Stalinist Russia. A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich and Gulag Archipelago explain things pretty well. Also it's worth noting that you didn't have to have actually done anything bad to be sent to a gulag.

>bread
Ukrainian Kulaks. Successful farmers who were seen as TOO successful thus potentially a part of the bourgeoisie or at least depriving economical equality. They were either killed outright or had much of the food that they had produced taken away.

As for personal liberty for an unemployed hungry person, you can still go wherever you want and seek whatever employment you wish. You're free to choose your own profession. When you do happen upon some money whether it be by employment or pan-handling or a welfare cheque, you can choose to spend it on WHATEVER you want. An unemployed hungry person should focus on food, but there is still the freedom and the liberty to choose to spend the money elsewhere. That decision that you're free to make would come with it some repercussions. You could grow more hungry and from your own bad decisions, starve, at least thinking in 1930s/40s times though even then I dare say things were put together well enough in the west so that such a thing wouldn't happen under normal circumstances. We have the right to make such decisions if we so choose. I'm an alcoholic, my life would likely be overall better if I didn't drink so much, but I choose to because I like it. I have the freedom to do so, for better or for worse.

If someone truly accepts those words of Stalin, if they truly accept them as fact, that the best personal liberty can only be found in socialism/communism/Marxism... their world view might be skewed beyond redemption.

So just like Dostoevsky and Dickens

>I'm an alcoholic, my life would likely be overall better if I didn't drink so much, but I choose to because I like it. I have the freedom to do so, for better or for worse.
Man, you were literally tricked into alchoholic meme by capitalist ideology. Shouting "ET WAS MUH FREE CHOICE" wouldn't change the fact that you have no actual freedom - all your preferences and tastes are predefined and artificially designed from without.
You are a product.

What does it matter if your tastes are dictated by capitalist society or traditional society, there is no freedom either way

>fucking leftishtsh I'm gonna show em by reading this piece of shit book
You remind me of that guy who cut his dick because his wife refused to have sex with him.

In traditionalist society your preferences and demands were determined by means of survival. The majority of your needs were natural.

Communism is a work of fiction.

There's so much more to Dostoevsky and Dickens than that. Find me a passage of Ayn Rand as sublime and as rich in symbolism and humanity as the Perezvon scene in the Brothers Karamazov. You can't, because she's trash.

>So just like Dostoevsky
haha but you need to find out what is Dostoevky's point of view first
identifying him with one of the characters is simply wrong
Dosto never states himself clear in his books so there is no telling of who is right or wrong

There are infinitely many interpretations of everything. Your stated ones are more likely to be endorsed by preexisting authority figures within academia etc so you are enough of a brainlet to think they are worthwhile

I don't follow. Nothing made me an alcoholic except my own choices. If anything influenced my choices, it's quite simply the unfortunate events that have gone on in my past. I like pizza because it tastes good, I like hummus because it tastes good, I like alcohol because I like the effect it has on my mind, I like things because I like them. It's not because of he capitalist society. Capitalism is merely the means that allows me to gain access to all these awesome things. Capitalism, as I type, is lifting more and more people out of poverty at a rate faster than any time before. The UN was hoping to reduce poverty to a certain point between 2000-2015, and they reached their goal by 2013. People are still being brought out of poverty, well, except in Venezuela where they went full-retard and adopted socialism on a national level. Morons, what did they expect, a utopia? lol

>Ambiguity is automatically good

Brainlet

he's just gonna cry western capitalist propaganda, don't engage with marxists.

Case in point, Raindroids are retarded.

It's pretty good. It's less about politics and more about a general "follow your dreams and never give up" American individualism. The main character is a mouthpiece for Rand's philosophy, but he can bounce off the other characters in interesting ways.

>if you define poverty in an ultra-specific way that has no real connection to material conditions, poverty is finished, praise reagan

>implying he said that

this. Dosty purposely weaved subtle ambiguity into his writing thus sealing his literary immortality. Just when you think you've understood his point another avenue for analysis opens up. His writings are ontologies in themselves, so much more than can be said for other writers.

>Capitalism is merely the means that allows me to gain access to all these awesome things. Capitalism, as I type, is lifting more and more people out of poverty at a rate faster than any time before. The UN was hoping to reduce poverty to a certain point between 2000-2015, and they reached their goal by 2013.
you like to watch the news right?

It can be hard to isolate what is capitalism and what is technology. I have noticed that both pro-free market and progressive types like to appropriate technological advances into their narratives

literature is capturing the unnamable
why bother writing Crime and Punishment when you could just say
>ethical nihilism is bad lol

There's no difference between subject and execution, brainletto.

>It can be hard to isolate what is capitalism and what is technology.
Because technology and capitalism go hand-in-hand. One is the product of the other. Without technological revolutions it would be impossible for bourgeius society to occur.

Define "execution" first. "Crime and Punishment" is only a text, you are not getting inside Dosto's mind by reading it. You can only interpret it with your own understanding.

It is not so simple as x causes y. Technology exists in every form of political organization and the two feed into each other in complex ways.

If you're a Marxist and you think politics is entirely the result of material conditions and has nothing to do with the unique culture of the people in question then I don't really want to talk with you because it's just tiresome

>It is not so simple as x causes y.
I never said that. I said they go hand-in-hand. They define each other, "feed into each other in complex ways".
I'm not a marxist but you can't deny that economy heavily influences both politics and culture. Also, as I see it, you take "technology" as something alien to society "integrality" but I would say it is rather an element of it.

Poverty is subjective. People living in poverty in the west, largely, are living like royalty or upper-class in Africa. As of right now I'm renting a room, I'm on welfare, and I also go to a foodbank to help lessen the grocery bill. I'm living off of roughly 10k US dollars a year. By western standards, I am living in poverty, but I have electric lighting, electric heating, I have my own mini-fridge, I have decent furniture and proper clothes for both hot and cold weather, I have nice footwear, there's the Police should I ever be in danger and medical services should I ever get injured or fall ill, there's a garbage service to take away my refuse and also my recyclables, there's good plumbing that brings me drinkable water and allows me to have hot showers, and if I should run out of both money and food and fear longterm hunger then I can go and get an emergency ration of food at said foodbank.

Welfare. Foodbank. These are socialist. Even the mere act of handing a few dollars to a bum on the street, even that money was earned through a free capitalist method, is an act of societal socialism. Welfare is of course purely an aspect of Government-provided socialism while the foodbank is likely a bit of both societal and Government-provided socialism, since the Government probably provides funding but also a lot of food/money is donated. Anyways, I digress...

I am EASILY in the lower class, obviously, but I am living very well. I hope to get a job so that I can make good money so I can live more comfortably and also perhaps find ways of investing it, to be an entrepreneur and take advantage of the free capitalist society we live in to increase my earnings. I've also lived in homeless shelters, which kept me from having to sleep on the street.

nice livejournal geek

I watch lots of different News. The mainstream stuff like CNN/Fox/MSNBC, but also online News like Phillip Defranco or whatever his name is, Steven Crowder, and there's also political commentators like Ben Shapiro whom also brings things to light. Leftist news, right-wing news, I want to hear what all sides are saying, and yes, capitalism is most certainly working even though the left hates it. President Donald J Trump has the US economy booming, economically things are better in the US now than they've ever been under Obama, though to be fair Obama DID have to deal with the recession and he DID have unemployment steadily lowering for the vast majority of his Presidency.

Capitalism encourages technological advancement. Capitalism encourages people to work harder, to work longer, because it's a merit based system that rewards those who benefit society the most. A Socialist system would be stagnant. Even if one person made a HUGE contribution to society, their improvement in life would be minimal because the outcome of their advancement would be spread out to retain equality, so they don't have much economical encouragement to work later, work harder, and to strive to be the best they possibly can. With Capitalism, you have the opportunity to live in absolute excess and luxury, and I encourage people to seek that out, because in order to get there you need to be doing A LOT of good for A LOT of people and with all that money they'll likely end up hiring A LOT of individuals.

>Poverty is subjective.
Wow, go tell that to a freezing bum on the curb "POVERTY IS THE MIND BRUH" and see how he reacts.
Government doesn't care for you, it simply sustains your life so you could work and produce values for it and then get a cut from your salary.
>I am EASILY in the lower class, obviously, but I am living very well.
But you could live better. It's like saying yeah my life is shit but look at those kids in Africa (oh u actually said that), but when you end up in a state of an african kid whom you will refer to to justify your miserable conditions? If you agree for a half of glass you would also agree for a quarter.

>I watch lots of different News. The mainstream stuff like CNN/Fox/MSNBC, but also online News like Phillip Defranco or whatever his name is...
But, kid, you can't trust any of them. They all are part of one scheme, one Spectacle. Don't take anyone's opinion at face value, you should always be skeptical.
>President Donald J Trump has the US economy booming, economically things are better in the US now than they've ever been under Obama
Your ability to parrot headlines is astounding.

A bum freezing on the curb would be even more extreme poverty than what I'm currently in, but it doesn't change the fact that my present living conditions are comfortable in spite of my unemployment. I never tried to claim that the Government cares about me, and yes I know that it's just trying to sustain my life while I'm in this unfortunate situation but I hope to improve myself so that I can be a tax-payer rather than a tax-taker. Ideally the Government would be as small and limited as possible, only strong enough to keep society civil with law enforcement, the nation safe with a Military power, and limited socialized systems to help those who are in need but doing what it can to make sure that able-bodied and able-minded people are not leeching from the system. The Government should only be there to make sure that everyone is playing the game fairly but otherwise stand aside to let the game be played. The Government should only be the referee, as it were, rather than the coaches who decide who takes what roles and what they do.

Yes, I could be living better, and I need to work in order to do that. I need to contribute to society. I need to gain experience and skills, I need to be smart with my money, I need to invest wisely, I need to make the right decisions. I don't point to Africans to 'justify' my conditions, but I do point to Africans to show that poverty is different everywhere. Extreme poverty in Africa is starving in the streets likely with various diseases in your system due to gross conditions and unhealthy water. People in extreme poverty in the west are still fed, will generally still have homeless shelters to fall back on unless they're sex offenders or something thus are refused admittance in which case I don't much care if they freeze to death in the streets or not. As it turns out though, in the west the average life expectancy is HUGE and people dying directly due to their povertous conditions is extremely rare. If I'm incorrect then go ahead and point out how, but to my knowledge death in the streets due to freezing/starvation is basically a non-thing.

If things get so bad in the west that I end up in the state of an African kid; starving to death in the streets and/or freezing to death in the streets, then yeah, Capitalism will have failed. Then we have to look into why. As of right now to my knowledge the place with the biggest problems of starvation is Venezuela, and it's because of socialism.

>kid
If you can't even maintain some level of mutual respect, we can't have a civilized discussion. I'm not interested in any arguments or namecalling, nor in changing your mind or having you try to change mind. I'm only interested in the sharing of ideas in civil dialogue for us to take what we wish to take from them and to leave what we wish to leave, if anything.

>mutual respect
>sharing of ideas
>civil dialogue
Are you fully aware of the place that you now find yourself in?
I mean, it's Veeky Forums.

Yes, I know, but so far things have been going well in this discussion for the most part. Not ideal, but well. I don't see why they shouldn't continue to do well.

>A work of fiction by a jewish dyke rekts 160 years of fiction by other jewish dykes (and non-dykes)
unironically yes

>The Government should only be the referee
But it will never be. Government consists, after all, of mundane people who are intrested in their own enrichment. They will set the "rules" in a specific manner so that a majority of the population is kept in acceptable conditions (not to invoke rebellions) and they will also propogate an ideology to make everyone think that their "rules" are just and there is no alternative to it. But these conditions are only acceptable for a fully sedated person who has no values in life except for work, career and "social success". But those valuse are artificial, they exist only to promote excessive consumption that will fuel the production proccess and bring capitalists (the "government) more money. It's a circle. It's a machine that feeds on itself, on it's own people.
Poor countries ("shitholes") are a well-known catch in capitalist's rhetorics. "Look at all those bums, and praise us for we are giving you welfare". But those "shithole" governments are the same plutocrats as an American government, they are just less lucky.

I see. Well Government employees ARE paid so they are indeed interested in their own enrichment however I do not think that's the only thing they're striving for. Doctors get very economically enriched, but they also do a lot of good for a lot of people. I also think it's an admirable thing to wish for poor people to live in acceptable conditions, and I am just one of those people who find myself in an unfortunate circumstance in life where I would have been on the streets if not for how things went, if not for this Government safety net that I had been caught by. I absolutely do not want to invoke a rebellion because I see this system as working very well. I have opportunities to improve myself, I'm just having difficulties gaining access to those opportunities, however I'm presently partaking in a program to help me find work in this new city and I'm also getting money for partaking in said program. I am also doing some entrepreneurial work online that is making me over $50 a month which is a nice bit of supplementary income however it will continue to climb.

I don't see my values as artificial. They're very real. Indeed all I REALLY need is food, water, and shelter. That's all, but I have so much more. House phone, I can afford my own cell phone, I have a laptop with which I access wireless internet, and so on and so forth. What's the alternative? Go out into the woods and survive in the wild, which I am indeed capable of doing especially if I am able to bring some specific items with me. I much prefer living in society, though, than in the wilderness.

Wait, do you think that the Government is the only Capitalists? Dude, I'm a Capitalist through-and-through. Yes I see the value of having some socialist ASPECTS, but they must be limited so that the foundation of free Capitalism is maintained. I don't understand your last 3 sentences at all. Also, yeah, I'd call African countries and Middle Eastern countries (besides Israel) to be shithole countries. Haiti is ABSOLUTELY a shithole and I never want to so much as visit there let alone live there. South Africa used to be alright, but if it's not descended into 3rd world status then it's most certainly on its way to it.

i tried to read this tome but i got bored after like 300 pages. it's pretty much just ayn rand rimming the concept of capitalism so hard that it has anal rupturing, ad infinitum, with the most ostentatious language possible. it's psuedointellectual garbage for pretentious college kids

So one sitting with a couple of monsters and 5 hour energies, big deal.

I feel like no one has actually read the book. It's like 50 Shades of Gray, except Mr Gray are the identical triplets, dark, handsome Mr. Roark, guy who looks exactly like Next Roark, and that John G guy. And Anastasia is Dagny

Remember that capitalist paradise at the end of the novel? It's a coal mine that only has hot muscular single men working in it, and they all forgo sex unless Dagny wants to sleep with them, otherwise they say aww shucks what a gal and don't rape her. She's the only woman there, except for this unattractive other female who has children and breeds and is not as hot as Dagny

underrated post

i actually didn't make it to the end, but i don't doubt what you're saying. i totally got the impression that dagny was ayn rand's self insert/mary sue; hot, competent, and the smartest person in the book. i only read about a third of the book before i was like, fuck this, though

is the book even worth reading to see and understand the perspective of the author? how well does it discuss the topic of Anarcho-capitalism and libertarians?

I found the content of Atlas Shrugged nothing but

Shamefully, her erotica is exactly my fetish .... so I read it all. Same erotica in Fountainhead.

I love that semi-rape spanking sex

*boring but

The Fountainhead is better, but really, Ayn Rand is shit in general.

>Dude, I'm a Capitalist through-and-through. Yes I see the value of having some socialist ASPECTS, but they must be limited so that the foundation of free Capitalism is maintained.

But this is the de facto position. Anyone who is whole heartedly a socialist/ancap is a fucking retarded.

I like to think of the Free Market as a tool. Like an axe for chopping trees, or a stove for heating soup. It has its time and place, like any other tool, but it should not be everywhere all at the same time.

Doctors get 'economically enriched' because of health insurance and government subsidies. The price of healthcare services is high because of these two things. They both need to be a bit lower, or just socialize the whole damn thing already.

We're not going to get very far if we just focus on the economics of healthcare though. It must be realized the actual demand for these sorts of services must grow, like any other industry, so letting health services run on pricing at all may be somewhat deleterious. It should be noted that Hippocrates stated that it was better to prevent the disease in the first place, instead of going around trying to patch all the holes on a sinking ship. Or instead of just trying to find holes when they aren't even there.

These sorts of things are moral concerns. It should be noted the free market is useful, but perhaps it should not even be applied to things where someone's life is on the line. Just determine if the need is there and go for it. It seems inhumane to subject people's lives to the free market. But the free market is perfectly situated for goods.

There IS of course, the moral side of this whole issue, which I alluded to above, but it doesn't detract at all from this point.

nothing to be ashamed of my dude. it's not like you're hailing her as the best author of the 20th century, you just like the porn she writes. she probably could have done well as a romance author lol

So you say it's repetitious and boring, and yet you defend the book vehemently ITT. So, do you like the work or not? Was you posting this even worth it?

literally one of the most pathetic posts i've ever seen

I'd love to hear some elaboration.

As a radical libertarian, Rand's shit apologetics has forever hurt the moral case for libertarianism with her vapid ramblings.

>Well Government employees
I'm not talking about employees. I'm talking about capitalists, about people who actually hold power. They don't have to sit in the White House to execute it.
>I am just one of those people who find myself in an unfortunate circumstance in life
But what put you in this circumstance in the first place?
>I don't see my values as artificial. They're very real. Indeed all I REALLY need is food, water, and shelter.
So you don't really care much for life except for a full stomach. That's a shame.

Owned

All of the industrialists are self inserts. Their personalities and dialogue are identical to each other.

What's the difference between the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged?

The Fountainhead burns hotter, but Atlas Shrugged burns longer.

this so much, there is currently a wannabe dutch politician who openly declares himself objectivist, in all his interviews he comes out as a niggerfied version of milo yinopolis

youtube.com/watch?v=KkTgHWvWW-U

Describe how it's the 'de facto position'.

I believe the free market must be maintained as the primary drive of the economy, otherwise you end up with Venezuela who had been doing very well before going with socialism.

I think ideally healthcare would be purely capitalist/privatized, and if a poor person wants to get medical treatment (and it would truly be the best medical treatment you could ever want) then they should turn to families and/or their local place of worship to receive voluntarily given donations on a societal level rather than tax money from the Government. Ideally, if socialism is involved, it's kept at the SOCIETAL level. Also with modern technology they could get tech-savvy relatives/friends to set up a paypal account and/or go to one of those fundraising site things. Doug Walker of Nostalgia Critic fame has an ad at the end of his vids for charities, Markiplier has raised LOTS of money for charities, and some Youtubers have also brought attention to specific individuals who are in need of help. There's a lot of options besides having the Government taking people's money by force and then distributing the wealth. I'll also add that doctors deserve to get rich as fuck.

If you're going to talk about preventing disease I feel that the next call will be legalizing or at least heavily taxing substances such as tobacco and alcohol, since they DO cause a lot of health issues. I don't agree, and what if a poor person who has NEVER contributed to society ends up smoking two packs a day and drinking nightly for 30 years. They won't have the money to afford all the necessary healthcare, but we should give even MORE tax money to keep them alive? It's a very difficult thing to consider, but that most certainly raises some questions. I'll need to give more thought on that.

Free market is more than just 'useful'. People are climbing out of poverty at an insane rate thanks to the free market, and economic socialism has lead to such suffering that it's unfathomable that people still support it. Venezuela, RIGHT NOW, March 2018, is the latest victim of Marx. Does it seem inhumane to subject people's lives to the free market? Yes, it does, however I'd also call it greedy for someone who's never done anything for society to beat the Hell out of their bodies with substance abuse then expect even more support. I'd never want to be such a leech on society; I want to contribute.

If socialized things are to be talked about, they must be SPECIFIC things. There's an argument to be made about healthcare, I grant you that, but free market capitalism MUST be the foundation of a nation's economy if said nation doesn't want its people to suffer on a massive level.

I'm a capitalist. A capitalist is someone who believes in personal responsibility, small Government, free market economy, and the individual's right to pursue success even though success might not be obtained. Yes, I am poor, but I am none the less THOROUGHLY a capitalist. I'm perfectly fine with Bill Gates and the owner of Amazon to be filthy stinking rich. I'm fine with media stars getting rich whether they be actors, directors, singer/songwriters, fiction writers, musicians, painters, sculptors, or what have you. They get rich by enriching the nation's culture and providing entertainment that enriches people's lives on an individual level. I've heard many songs and have watched many movies that have touched my heart, and the Harry Potter series has welcomed many people into a land of fantasy and wonder, even if the series is a meme on Veeky Forums. When I was a young teen I loved those books, loved the movies, and had owned a lot of merchandise that I enjoyed. I even played some of the games, and some of the money spent on ALL those things went to J K Rowling, and rightly so. I think she's a leftist cunt and I won't be buying anything of hers anymore, but she deserves all the money she earned.

A variety of things put me in my present circumstance.

Wait, don't care much for life except a full stomach? Where did that come from? Elaborate. Sounds like you just pulled a Cathy Newman there; "so what you're saying is..."

Not that user. But to contribute.

Have you considered that socialism is just "worker ownership over the means of production" aka not only marx? You could make the argument that old tribal like society were socialist because the tribe hunted, they all participated, they all got food. Socialism has been around for way longer. I personally come from a post communist country and to be honest, it just depends on leadership, sankara was great while Stalin was not.

Venezuela gets a lot of attention for being a "socialist failure". Even though most of the income of Venezuela came from the private sector.

Charity will not ensure safety. I would agree with you if people could work without anything to hold them back but alas. This system is global and still the majority of the population lives in poverty and is underpaid tremendously. even work doesn't ensure safety for them right now.

I'm a socialist, I want to own my work and be free from the rich minority to become one with the collective who gave me rights, order and knowledge.

I read it in 12 hours.

>personality cult

all societies have those including democratic and free ones.

we have a george washington personality cult here in america

check out this guy

The annual
>Do what you feel festival
soon.

>Henry George
>laissez-faire capitalism
I know this post is from yesterday and is probably being ignored by people who don't know who Henry George is but you are absolutely fucking retarded