O Lord, I am surrounded by enemies

humans are inherently sinful, inherited from the original sin

abrahamism is an autism theology

On this topic, I'm very confused by the Jewish version of God's punishments and rewards for behavior. Is it true that Jews don't necessarily believe in an afterlife? The Old Testament implies in many of the books that a morally good man has a happy, prosperous life, and that God punishes bad people by giving them ultimately unhappy lives. Is this accurate?

you are, retard

>Implying that God rewards people on earth and not on heaven

the abrahamic religions are actually so childish, i dont even care call me a fedora

youtu.be/07AWWJiyAU8

> But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Sure, a baby will be held accountable less than say, a fully grown healthy adult man.

And can a baby commit sin? Why not?
Sin is accounted on you at the time when you understand the concept of right and wrong. Say, 1 years old baby can't be accounted for his sin but when he reach 5 years old, he will be. And it only takes 1 sin to sent you to hell

This is a Catholic doctrine, if anything it's a tradition. Find in the scripture that teach this, you can't

>This is a Catholic doctrine, if anything it's a tradition. Find in the scripture that teach this, you can't
Uhh

>This is a Catholic doctrine, if anything it's a tradition. Find in the scripture that teach this, you can't

Find in scripture where it says it has to be found in scripture.
Jesus started His Church and we are to look to the Church on issues of debate. See Mt. 18:15-20.
Christ gave the power to the Apostles to define dogma, the loosing and binding on earth. It will be the same in heaven, never in fault because the Holy Spirit dwells in the Church and Christ is in the midst of it while being the head of it as well.

First off, Judaism today doesn't even held Old testament/ torah as its highest authority but rather they have talmud, a lengthy series of book on Jewish people tradition. More like Pope's writing for Catholics and Hadith for Muslims.

Second, There's a great difference between God's wrath and when He chastire people whom He love. If you read the Bible you'll find this to be very consistent.

Paul is the last Apostle.

>I'm the least of the apostles, born in due time

Show me the scripture that teach original sin, of course without taking it out of it's context. I'll wait

original sin is inherent when Adam fell, not when God created him. Let's clear this up now.

Bla bla bla. THE SCRIPTURE

John was the last apostle actually...

Are you a Christian? Just wondering. Just because a teaching is not in the bible does not make it true. If you are a Christian, I'm sure you believe in the Trinity, 3 persons in 1 God. But Trinity is not in the bible. Who's to say that it is not three gods? What of Jesus's makeup too? How do we know he was not half-man, half-God? That can be easily deduced. But we certainly don't think that. It's dogma defined. Jesus gave this power to the apostles and it is passed down (see 1 Cor. 11:2, Thess. 2:15, Acts 1:21-26, 1 Tim. 1:6 and 4:14 and 5:22).

If you are not a Christian, then why are you making a straw man of Catholicism? Catholics need not look only to the bible. That is not what we believe.

Too, how were apostolic age gentiles to know whether or not they had to be circumcised to be baptized? How would they know whether they had to enter the old covenant to enter the new covenant or not? There certainly was no bible then and Jesus said nothing of it.

Its all hogwash anyway so dont expect a logical explanation

reminder that Jordan Peterson said the bible's writers weren't trying to say anything scientific or literally true, because science and truth were made up in the 1600s

cause they think god is real
it's kind of embarrassing really

The state of this board. What a brainlet, coming out with an Islam-tier argument.

The Trinity is clearly taught by the Bible. Original sin is not, but was invented by Augustine.

>why do you think a girl is hot before having sex with her?

Where is that like "There are three persons in one God" in the Bible?

Where in the Bible is the strand-of-hair like precision of Trinitarian doctrine of 3 persons in 1 God? It was a doctrine taught by the Catholic Church and it is true.

Non-Trinitarianism was a legit heresy and had to be dealt with. Thank the Catholic Church for defining the dogma that is truth.

It's a way of explaining the nature of god. It is a reduction, not an imagination. The bible clearly states that Jesus is both wholly god and wholly man. The principal verse that supports Jesus being wholly god is...

John 8:58 (ESV)
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

A whole article discussing its translation, mistranslations, and context in regards to supporting verses, the entirety of the bible, and the Trinitarian position can be found below.

carm.org/john-858-and-1030-33-i-am

Yes I am a Christian, I identified myself as Baptist precisely.

No, I'm not undermining our need to deduce scriptures in the Bible to get a doctrine. But would you agree that whatever things that comes out from the deduction has to be consistent with the rest of the Bible right?

Now. let's follow your deduction. I'll try to be concise here.

first, on "who's the last apostle" problem, you'll have to first negate what Paul said in my statement above. It's in the book of 1 Corinthians 15

"For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me"

>least of the apostles

I'm not negating that anyone after him can't preach the Bible, but it will not have any authoritative value.

The problem with Catholicism, as you put it precisely
>Catholics need not look only to the bible. That is not what we believe.

That's what creates this great chasm in the first place. This is why Catholics come up with baptismal regeneration, Marian dogma, purgatory, indulgences, papal's infallibility, and so on.

As for Trinity, there's very strong scripture evident, you don't have to deduct that far. as it is said in 1 John 5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And for what Catholics' dogmas that I stated before? Now that's mental gymnastics.
All in all, what I want to ask you is: repent my friend. not from your sin, there's not one mention of repenting of your sin in the Bible, not once

Repent of what you believe! Salvation is the gift of God, not your works lest any man should boast. Not of your tradition, not by going to church, not by baptism, not by fulfilling sacraments! Our righteousness is as filthy rags, have faith and believe that the death burial and resurrection of Christ is enough!

See

How do you know with absolute certainty?

This is a religious discussion. If you are a Christian then you know the answer to this question and will not be satisfied. If you are not a Christian you do not know the answer and would hate it if I told it to you. There is no win win here.

No, the entire point of Job was that his bad situation on Earth was not a result of his own sins. The “miserable comforters” who said he was being punished were all wrong

>have faith and believe that the death burial and resurrection of Christ is enough!
I do have faith and I do believe. I have Christ's body, blood, soul, and divinity in me every time I receive Him through His perpetual sacrifice unbound my time.

All the doctrines you list too,
>. This is why Catholics come up with baptismal regeneration, Marian dogma, purgatory, indulgences, papal's infallibility, and so on.
were believed by the early Christians, the early Church. Yes, some gets formally defined much much later, but the consensus was there from the beginning.

Do you agree with the contemporaries of Christ? Are you in communion with the contemporaries of the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers?
here's a link on early Christian writings on the Eucharist and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
>therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

Hey, thanks for being nice with your comments at the end; I can tell they are genuine :). Appreciate buddy.

I admire JP for what he is, I even listen to his lectures it's very useful.

But when he "preach" the Bible, as eloquent as he was, it has the dangers of falling to what Christian would call Gnosticism

Sure, the writers weren't trying to say it is anything scientifically true because it is true so they don't have to expand it that way.

Or to put it another way: I believe the Bible has the proof of ALL ontological question about our reality, our nature, physical or metaphysical. I mean if it's really the Word of God, it has to fit this requirement right?

I agree it is a religious discussion. Catholics' beliefs are true by virtue of Church dogma. It's 100% certainty. Others may not believe it, but in the shoes of Catholics, it is true entirely. And they back it up with scriptural support that Jesus gave His Church that power. That's a big discrepancy between Catholics and Christians who do not share the same belief (so not Anglican, Orthodox, etc.). Do we not want 100% certainty? Obviously, that cannot be achieved in all cases, but the Catholics clearly offer it opposed to Christians who don't. Catholics have all the same inductive arguments but have the finishing blow of "defined as true dogma."

you don't know with 100% certainty, faith has nothing to do with knowing, you're all damned for clinging to knowledge and earthly powers for your assurance of your beliefs. The lot of you are sickening cowards

Here's some certainty that you can find in the scripture itself:

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

> Till heaven and earth pass

Now let that sink in for a while

nuh uh

Well, that's not too sweet. Weren't you not clinging to knowledge to believe in the Trinity? Do you not cling to knowledge by virtue of the grand evidence for Jesus's resurrection? So, it seems you are also among the lot of sickening cowards who cling to knowledge lol.

Who said reason cannot lead to a man to faith anyways? Reason is the bridge to truth and faith is the final leap that seems infinitely long, but is true nonetheless.

And I do know certain parts of the Christian faith with 100% certainty, because what is bound on earth is bound in heaven. I take Jesus's words on faith. And were those not his words? lol

I would argue that the strength of the Catholics ""true dogma"" comes from their size, age, and centralization. Protestant Christian denominations are wildly decentralized. But to suggest that they don't have their own, at times similar to Catholicisms (and remarkably similar to other Protestant denominations), version of "true dogma" seems disingenuous. But if Catholicisms size, age, and centralization provides you with a greater sense of certainty then that is your faith.

And in the end it always comes down to faith as so rudely stated.

>Here's some certainty that you can find in the scripture itself
that's not how certainty of knowledge is acquired in philosophy or science
>For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled
this is from his faith, it has nothing to do with certainty, certainty is a knowledge dependent state. One's certainty is predicated upon the knowable, God isn't knowable, his will isn't and he has revealed nothing to you. The Bible is dead letter and only now exists in this form because of tampering and the Church. You have no certainty only your faith
>let that sink in
its meaningless to me as I don't have faith and know that the Bible's knowledge has nothing to do with what Christians believe it does, and is far less weighty than they believe it to be. You have no knowledge, you are an ignoramus with faith you don't believe in, which is why I chastise you and the others. You're faithless LARPing cowards

It's not that Protestants don't have their own, but rather they have an unbelievably weaker basis for them. Protestant dogma at best is running on the fumes of the RCC's power to decree dogma.

I will say, there are obviously dogmas and teachings that I take on faith(assent of faith), but I do know of ones to be true with 100% certainty, like the Trinity.

I know many dogmas with utmost certainty by my faith in the Church's infallibility. I said it in a previous post:
>And I do know certain parts of the Christian faith with 100% certainty, because what is bound on earth is bound in heaven. I take Jesus's words on faith. And were those not his words?

So you are just mad that he is a heretic? Boo fucking hoo.

>that's not how certainty of knowledge is acquired in philosophy or science

This is true if my grandma is the one who said it. But if it's God, the one who determined the rules of logic and created the nature itself. This would be certain right?

>God isn't knowable
He is, and he died on the cross for sins of the world.

Is Jesus a liar? or He is God? that is the great question for the last couple thousands of year.

Better make up your mind because

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

And don't think this information that I give you is trivial. Even this was posted on Chinese Animu imageboard.

You read this and acknowledge our conversations here. It's enough to hold you accountable for God's judgment.

Luke 10
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

You are making the huge assumption that the God depicted in the Bible is the actual God of the universe.

>trivialize greatness in order to make it sound stupid
>but guise you said this was great why does it sound stupid?

>I admire JP for what he is, I even listen to his lectures it's very useful.

You can read. can't you?

What I am saying is, when he so-called preach the Bible specifically, I will take it with a grain of salt.

Are you blindly following him now huh? He is your Pope now or something?

>This is true if my grandma is the one who said it. But if it's God, the one who determined the rules of logic and created the nature itself. This would be certain right?
its not God just some Greek or Jew who wants to start a cult
>he is, and he died on the cross for sins of the world
that wasn't God in all his glory that was God as man, that's not the same at all. learn metaphysics christfag
>Is Jesus a liar? or He is God? that is the great question for the last couple thousands of year
confused schizophrenic jewish mystic
>You read this and acknowledge our conversations here. It's enough to hold you accountable for God's judgment
of course, you're all in the business of judgement it pays well I hear
>Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
he's being cheeky and also exhorting you to be his slaves when he assumes his Godly form again. you're basically scratch lottery followers
>Weren't you not clinging to knowledge to believe in the Trinity? Do you not cling to knowledge by virtue of the grand evidence for Jesus's resurrection? So, it seems you are also among the lot of sickening cowards who cling to knowledge lol
I reject all the claims of the Church and the Bible as fantasies and lies
>Who said reason cannot lead to a man to faith anyways?
Reason leads to knowledge, which is why its the highest activity of Philosophy and why Science is predicated upon it. Religion is to do with Faith which is anti-knowledge and conflating the two is dangerous
>faith is the final leap that seems infinitely long
the bridge collapses as soon as you leave it for faith, which is fine but its nothing to do with reason anymore and you needn't reason to have faith. you can be just as faithful a believer without reasoning at all. Which destroys the validity of equating reason/knowledge with faith. If you could reason you would see this
>And I do know certain parts of the Christian faith with 100% certainty
you know the faith as told by christfags you yourself have no faith. The faithful wouldn't be on image boards filled with CP and fascists LARPing in the company of other faithless LARPers
>i take his words on faith
you don't because you constantly read your holy book and shit post about it, if you did you would just have faith. I've met faithful they tend to be homeless, psychotic and not christians in the strict sense
>those his words
no its an english translation or a latin translation or a greek translation of Aramaic and older Greek texts that were written by scribes who were involved with the early Church and the underground Christian communities. Its not his words. If he was real and did have any power his words were in Hebrew or Aramaic and fell on mostly deaf ears. It could be argued none of you listened to him, something many people including his arch-nemesis have said many times to you people. You don't listen tho

NOW LISTEN

YEAH YOU, THE PERSON BEHIND THE SCREEN

Now if we had a coffee together, I will expand to you to all of the answers to your arguments. Yeah, those silly arguments. but it'll just be exhaustive if I do it here.

It'll be better if you now rest your keyboard now rather than hardens your heart more.

Because in contrary to popular beliefs "OOh it's never too late, God will always love you"

No, there will be a certain point in times when God's rejects you! you'll became a reprobate. no matter how you seek it, He'll never be found. NO MATTER WHAT. And oh boy, It's a dreadful state, you are doomed now even when you're still alive now.

Read the book of Romans, when Paul explained the Gospel to the Greek people. It's a short book, you can finish it in one sitting, there you'll find the answer to your doubt.

just torrented this, what am i in for

despair

>how do children with bone marrow cancer sin, for example?
They wherent baptized

there are christian children who get incinerated by death squads in the third world you retard
that looks more like faith, notice the pretense to civility and reason has fallen away, the fire comes forth. Threats, screaming, shouting, accusing, ranting, talking in tongues, miracles, the faith.
you also worship a greco-judaic blood god and should consider leaving the faith if you value your sanity and soul

lol it's this guy again

>His perpetual sacrifice
What's this even mean? so when Jesus said "It is finished" on His death on the cross, it still needs to be done over and over? Does He lie?

>were believed by the early Christians, the early Church. Yes, some gets formally defined much much later, but the consensus was there from the beginning.

Early Christians? How many? All believed it?

What consensus? Even what Anti-nicean church fathers believed are nothing like today's Catholic Church.

False Gospel is already spread even in Paul's days, and to have a presupposition that the earlier it gets, the more pristine (for a lack of a better term) the doctrines are simply inaccurate.

Every doctrine has to be confirmed with the Gospel, not the other way around.

Mark 7:13
"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."

>Hey, thanks for being nice with your comments at the end; I can tell they are genuine :). Appreciate buddy.

I also appreciate you to make this discussion a meaningful one. But "being nice" is the last thing I am concerned here. We can disagree on little things (that's the idea of Independent Baptist, what I adhere to), but on the major things, like the salvation, and Trinity, you just don't compromise.

As someone said: A Catholic can be saved but in spite of the Catholic church

It is not me who breathe the fire eventually. I Can't kill your soul. I'm trying to save you out of the fire. The ball is in your court. I can leave this discussion anytime, and so do you.

>>yes you did
But that's not what God said to Job.

… original sin means that by being born into the world, you are sinful. there is not a baby born that doesn't have sin as they are already filled with a desire to eat rather than love god, and they will develop the desire to kill and to fuck later on. Therefore they have the capacity to sin and should be treated as in need of salvation.

From John Chapter 9
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Christianity is a religion built around the hope of Jesus's return and the new Heaven and New Earth, the suffering of Children today amplifies the joy they will experience tomorrow.

>reading the bible

>God: I fought a dragon, now stop complaining

because they're easily quotable on instagram next to a photo of them crouching and displaying the folded praying hands like in a rap album cover (or contemplatively gazing over a cliff in very little clothing if a woman).

Goyim are literally culturally appropriating the Torah. It's very clear that the Old Testament is only meant to be read by Jews.

I don't know about the afterlife. A holy people is rewarded, simply by causality, if your family is in order they will prosper, same with a strong Jewish state. A good family will support each other in every way, and survive for thousands of years, and that's partly what the OT is about.

It's a tradition peculiar to the Latin/Western/Roman Church; the Eastern Church [recognized as in legitimate apostolic succession by the Roman Catholic Church] doesn't hold the doctrine of original sin.

The Western/Roman Church reaches a major point of departure with Augustine, who popularized the concept or original sin, and quickly made the leap to predestination. Protestantism was an extension of Augustinian predestination. These concepts didn't make their way into the Eastern Church, which in my humble opinion, is truer to earliest Christianity.